Open Thread: The Other Woman

 Posted by on May 27, 2012 at 6:59 pm  Season 5
May 272012

S05/Ep11. A killer title. Holy shizzola.

I had fun with this last week, this little reminder of the punch these late-season episodes pack, so I’ll do it again. Past 11th episodes:
Indian Summer
The Jet Set
The Gypsy and the Hobo
Chinese Wall

Please respect our NO SPOILER policy, which includes NO PREVIEW DISCUSSION. And you’ll have Deb’s awesome recap post by 8am Eastern time.


  753 Responses to “Open Thread: The Other Woman”

  1. T- 2 hrs, 50 min.

  2. T-2:39

  3. Can’t wait, can’t wait! Of course, now we wonder if there is really going to be ‘another woman’ or if it’s a metaphor for something that happens or happened to a character.

    Possibilities — Joan — well, we saw her beautifully interacting with Don last week, but if she were to become ‘the other woman’ in Don’s marriage, I’d be sorely dissappointed. Now if she gets together with Lane, well, I’d actually like that.
    _Betty. Well, only 3 episode left, she’s bound to show up again.
    – Beth vs. Trudy — Will Pete’s obsession with Beth lead to a showdown?
    – Peggy — Peggy is another woman important to Don, and we still need to see how her story will pan out this season — not with Don, but maybe more with Abe.
    Sally vs. Megan — Megan may be Don’s wife, but I think Sally will always be his first priority.

    • I feel a little worried about Pete & Trudy. I’m not sure if Trudy will learn specifically about what happened with Pete & Beth, but in Season 3 she definitely was made aware that Pete had been unfaithful* when he said that he hated being there (in the summer) without her.

      She put up with that incident. I’m not sure how much she will take, though.

      *after the incident with the German nanny.

  4. In respect to this episode’s title, The Other Woman, the phrase can mean:

    a) A married man who has a mistress or a woman who causes a man to be inattentive to his wife/significant other (I am dismissing any lesbian angle)

    b) A female child (my daughter is the other woman in my life) or an ex-wife

    c) One’s profession

    d) Competition between two women in a work environment

    e) An inanimate object that competes for the attention of someone

    f) Something or somebody that that deprives one of supporting your wife/significant other

    I have no clue which direction this episode is heading but let’s look at the possibilities based on these defintions:

    a) A married man with something on the side

    Of the lead male characters only three are currently married: Don, Pete and Lane


    Has not cheated on Megan ever. The last time he slept with a woman other than Megan was the night before the opening scene of Tomorrowland with Dr. Faye Miller. Previously I suggested Las Vegas should take bets to when Don will stray again. Will fatigue cause Don to let his guard down, become mentally susceptible and go on the prowl again? Could Don have another rendezvous with Joan?


    Will Pete try to see or contact Beth Hewes again? It was only in episode 8 (Lady Lazurus) that Pete slept with her.


    He is in hot water financially. Does he now have time or the inclination to cheat?

    Note: Roger is currently separated so I am not considering any affair “the other woman” at this point.

    b) Could Betty or Sally come between Don and Megan?

    c) Could the long hours at work affect the long-term relationship of one of the partners?

    We already know Megan has given her blessing to Don putting his nose to the grindstone but how do Trudy Campbell and Rebecca Pryce feel about not having their hubbies around very much over the holiday season?

    d) Could we see in this episode a competition between Peggy and ? or Joan and ? or Peggy and Joan?

    e) Could the Jaguar be “the other woman”?

    f) Could the British govt be Lane’s “other woman”?

  5. “The other woman” is a thinly veiled reference to suicide. Sad to think this will be the final episode for Lane, Don, Pete, and Roger.

  6. Last week we had Lakshmi the Hindu goddess of prosperity (both material and spiritual), fortune, and the embodiment of beauty.

    Perhaps this week we’ll get Kali, the Hindu goddess of time and change [and sometimes Death].

  7. Season one: Indian Summer

    Don is offered a partnership (just prior to Pete ratting him out in episode 12)

    Pete steals a package meant for Don (sent by Adam) leading him to discover Don’s true identity

    Season two: The Jet Set

    Roger proposes to Jane.

    Duck spearheads the purchase of SC by the British

    Season three: The Gypsy and the Hobo

    Don tells Betty his real identity

    Joan conks Greg on the back of his head with a vase.

    Season four: Chinese wall

    All the partners learn Lucky Strike is leaving (Roger already knew)

    Pete and Trudy have a child.

    Don sleeps with Megan for the first time.

    In other words, significant or pivotal events or revelations occurred in all previous episode 11’s which impacted the following season or seasons.

    For the record there hasn’t been a pregnancy announcement yet in season five.

    There has never been a significant death in an episode 11.

  8. What instantly strikes me about these eps is the intersections of wanting and being that play out in all of them.

  9. Many posters believe individual DEATH to be an integral part of season five and that one of the lead characters will meet an untimely death or at least be part of a death scene involving others.

    But could Matt Weiner be playing with us all? Coud the allusions or references to death be a metaphor for the death of America (traditions, customs, value, culture etc) and “the every man for himself” theme announced by Weiner for this season be the struggle each character is having coming to terms with what is about to occur as America is reborn from 1966 onward?

    Could season five thus be a death to innocence, a death to assumption, and a death to certainty?

  10. Aarrgghhh – I know who at least one “other woman” is, found out by accident but will not be posting, have to wait to see what she’s doing there. Sigh……

  11. I agree: I think the idea that a character is going to die seems a little too on the nose.

    Weiner’s too diabolically smart to make a dramatic move like that.

    Or… will someone die…

    Methinks this will be a game-changer, this episode…

  12. Jaguar is a Maguffin. SCDP will not gain the account, which will lead to fall-out. No way Lane goes unscathed.

  13. T-1.07…I’m gonna make brownies.

  14. Megan’s penultimate “role” has been as Don’s wife. She is really a fed, investigating the Dick/Don identity issue. The other woman is her true identity.

    I know, it’s crazy and far fetched. But fun to speculate.

    • “Megan” not being who she says she is was a maguffin of our own speculation. Would absolutely love it if it were true. But………
      Don needs to step out to stir the shitstorm in his Sominex marriage. If “Megan” threw a pasta plate last week, just imagine what the reaction would be? Violence lurks. Maybe DD could be the victim. Wouldn’t that be ironic?

    • oh wow, I think you have something there. When she was his secretary, she was the one who sent the papers to the feds with Don’s birth info causing him to “freak out” and lose the big account.

      They could use the song “Secret Agent Man” by Johnny Rivers – it would have been out by then.

    • That sounds implausible for the Mad Men universe. It’s too soapy, too far-fetched.

      • Is MM a good enough program that it could be forgiven one soapy plotline? All three major female characters have gotten preggers, which leaves “Megan “. Will she be carrying when she falls down the service elevator shaft? Too soapy? Yummmmmm.

    • S-5 opened with Sally waking up in her bedroom in the new Draper apartment.

      Maybe the whole season will turn out to be just a dream – like Dallas did one season. I mean if you think the show is taking a soapy turn, that would be a classic way to approach it.

  15. I call threesome.

  16. T-56 min.

  17. Megan’s mask of perfection fully falls off and we get to see “The Other Megan,” her true self.

    • The other woman as an impostor. Hadn’t thought of that. Kind of like an alter ego. Brilliant.

    • That’s a good guess, @Celina. Is it possible the Anna Draper issue comes up again? To Sally, she’s “the other woman.”

  18. I don’t think anyone will cheat or die tonight.

  19. I’m hoping for a “PEGCENTRIC” episode. Maybe in Don’s life… she’s the other woman.

    • Where o where has beloved Pegs been? Moribund season for her. She has not accomplished a thing, cept for jacking Roger of a few bucks. More Pegs please.

  20. T-27 min.

  21. I think the other woman is that Scarlet chick who showed up last week. She is Harry’s secretary and Roger flirted with her and even Joanie remarked that she was the new somebody that was having a turn with Roger. So, my take is Scarlet is the new playmate in the office.

  22. I bet it will have something to do with work being “the other woman” in Don’s life.

  23. Peggy and the gal from time life

    • ooohhhh…good call!

    • Would MM really want to go down this road so late in the season or would it be its surprising kickoff to the year 1967?

      • Didn’t the last episode take place in early Dec ’66? Actually, now that I think about it, hasn’t Christmas been known as a time of year with a high suicide rate?

  24. I hope we get at least a little more Trudy these last few episodes. I love her and we really haven’t seen much of Pete and Trudy’s relationship this season. I know she is distracted with a new baby and a new house, but she cant be that blind to Pete’s misery. In the past she has always picked up on it when he has been worried/upset about something.

  25. T-4 min.

    Gather ’round, everybody!

  26. Take us in Karl!!!!!!!! And here………

  27. …and Here. We. Go.

  28. What historical significant events happened in 1967? When was Apollo 1? Trying to anticpate what is next that might influence the characters

  29. See, everybody thinks someone’s gonna die… how ’bout THAT guy?

  30. 1967. Summer of love, sgt pepper.

  31. Previews revealed nothing.

  32. Dale!!

  33. Jaguar is The Other Woman. Or anOther woman.

  34. DALE!!!

  35. Peggy potentially anOther Woman.

  36. The original Palm opened in 1926.

  37. That redhead.


  39. Joan potentially anOther Woman.

    They’re piling up.

  40. Oh Jesus. No guys. Just don’t even think about pimping out Joan.

  41. I don’t see Joan taking one for the team

  42. Could “the other woman” be a car?

  43. Wow Pete. That’s a new level of douche, even for you.

  44. I asked Trudy BEFORE.

  45. “How would you feel if it was Trudy?”

    “Hey, I pimped out Trudy to get a story published in Boy’s Life.”

  46. Pegs is BACK!!!

  47. Peggy hits a grand slam. That was brilliant.

  48. Extend the rope Lane.

  49. i’m not buying this.

  50. Pete is amazing. Even Roger is disgusted.

  51. I just can’t believe how truly evil and gross Pete has become.

  52. I missed it. What did cooper say to Pete as he was leaving the office? And didnt Pete make it sound like Joan was amenable? I did not think she was

    • Bert said to make sure she knew she could say no. And yes, Pete is spinning her “couldn’t afford me” comment as having some price.

  53. Loved that Don immediately interjects that Joan is married, as he’s the one who knows she’s getting divorced.

  54. Lanes look at Pete: “I kicked your ass once, you SOB, I’ll do it again.”

  55. Our Joanie is going to walk away from the agency unless Don gets pimped out to her.

  56. I am sooo disturbed.

  57. WHAT!!!! THE!!!! FUCK!!!!!!

    They all just agreed to whore out Joan?????

    All except Don. Don Draper is the most sexually ethical man in the room.

    My head just exploded.

    • For 10% of the proceeds (except Roger doesn’t want to pay for it).

      • I know, it’s okay with Roger if Joan gets pimped out — as long as he doesn’t have to pay.

        Oh, Roger.

        Oh, Pete.

  58. Pete and his rifle need to get reacquainted real soon!

  59. 2012: Pete would be fired for even suggesting such a thing.
    1966: It’s a split vote.

  60. I wish Lane would have punched Pete again.

  61. Peggy is genius.

    Pete is beneath contempt.

  62. I am thinking there is no way Don or Roger wont fact check what Pete has said with Joan herself. I am at least hoping because Pete spun his conversation into something that it was not

  63. How is Don Draper the most ethical man in SCDP now?

  64. Favorite line so far: “Where do you get this stuff?!”

  65. So much for Don being cool. Asshole.

  66. ouch…throwing money at peggy? it’s like they’re implying women have some sort of price…

  67. Okay, so I had 30 seconds of deep respect for Don.

    Then he threw money at Peggy’s head.

  68. MM is treading dangerously close to jump the shark territory with this little storyline..

    The only way Joan should consider it is if a Partnership is given.

    • I felt like I was dreaming the whole thing. It’s a little soapy.

    • How is it not okay to do it for money, but it’s kind of okay for a Partnership? Does everyone really have their price?

      • We do. We state how much we are willing to sell ourselves for when we say yes to a prospective employer’s offer. Capitalism, baby! Don’t you just love the smell of it?

  69. it’s so demoralizing.

  70. Lane doing the right thing for the wrong reason.

  71. ‘It’s four times what I make in a year.’

    Wait, what?

  72. Lane doing the wrong thing for the wrong reason!

  73. WHAT!

    Oh my GOD. JOAN. PARTNER???

  74. Joanie is finally putting her skin in the game. Wow. THE WORST.

  75. Lane just proposed what I thought Joan should demand before even thinking about it — a partnership.

    • But really — how could she stay and work with these assholes after this — even as a partner. She’d be a partner like Belle Watling was a partner in her own whorehouse in Gone with the Wind.

      I really can’t believe this story line. The reaction of all the men (except Don) was low even by their stunningly low standards.

      I dunno. I’m thinking a shark may have been jumped.

      I’m in shock.

      • I’m in shock too, Elizabeth. I’m sick to my stomach. And if you don’t think things like this happened back then, I’m here to tell you they did. Which does not make me want to sit and watch this as entertainment. As far as I’m concerned, MW did just jump the shark.

        • Did they really? Now I feel even sicker.

        • You’re saying that this sort of thing was typical of the period, and given that Mad Men is a period drama, how then has the show jumped the shark? Just because you don’t like story?

  76. Money is the root of all evil…

  77. Now someone should punch Lane.

  78. OMG. They’re going to recruit Megan’s friend.

  79. Good lord, this must be the Episode of Sleaze.

  80. As usual Megan kills all momentum. Worthless.

  81. Is it snowing outside the window or is that just my TV?

  82. What the hell was that?

    Ginsberg… that actually kind of creeped me out.

  83. Megan and Don aren’t sexually compatible. Really.

  84. Jon Hamm and Jessica Pare have absolutely ZERO chemistry.

  85. Oh, Peggy, RUN! Go with Ken, hatch your escape now!

  86. Watching the partners have that discussion about the number made me want to turn the show off. If Don had gone along with it, I would have. I’m really bothered.

  87. This cemetary. HAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!

  88. Manhattan is anOther Woman. Not unlike Alexis Bledel.

  89. One “Other Woman” — Manhattan.

    • I always said, if Pete did move to the suburbs, then an apartment in the city wouldn’t be far behind. I even predicted that he would pitch it as being for nights when he needs to work late.

  90. megan, acting, yawn.


  92. Dear Megan, it’s called diction. You will need it when you’re an actress.

  93. Our Joanie playing ……..Hardball.

  94. nope…this isn’t working for me.

  95. “I meant winning the business.”

  96. no way.

  97. Oh Joan.

  98. Ginzo should be the star of MM.

  99. joan is a jaguar….she’s the woman you can’t have.

    • Exactly. I predict it will play out that way with Mr. Jaguar, and Joanie is planning it that way all along — the woman you can’t have. She’s smart. And she’ll make partner.

  100. Oh Joan.

    /bangs head on table

  101. If Joan becomes a partner, this episode is worth it. If she doesn’t, agree — this is the night Mad Men jumped the shark.

  102. FREDDY!

  103. YES. FREDDIE!!

  104. Jaguar. Something beautiful you can truly own.

    Unlike your wife, Don.

  105. Ballerina n Freddie. Precious.

  106. maybe the jaguar guy is testing scdp in some way…how low will they go?

  107. America’s favorite serial suicide committer, Joel Murray

  108. Some other ad agency = anOther Woman

  109. I actually guessed the possibility of Peggy leaving was one of the plot lines today.

    It has been building up.

  110. If they don’t get the account, does Joanie still make partner? Or is it only about closing?

    • Excellent question. If they don’t get the business, would they even stay in business?

      • I think yes. And I want Joan as a partner.

        • As a consequence of prostituting herself? Apart from the self-respect and moral issue involved, how do you think everyone in the firm will look upon her? Not everyone will know? They will soon.

          The whole thing is implausible to begin with. And disgusting that MW put it in.

    • No… that’s what see wants in writing. She is a partner Jag or no Jag.

    • Yes. She said to Pete she does not guarantee results which meant she has nothing to do with the pitch being won

  111. Wow, you know, there’s a HUGE plot development going on with Peggy in this ep, and I can hardly even focus on it, because I’m staring vacantly at the screen, muttering over and over, “They all whored out Joan, they all whored out Joan, they all whored out Joan…..”

    Are these men even human?

    • agreed, elizabeth…so much drama with joan, i momentarily forgot about the money throwing.

    • Joan didn’t seem to mind that much.

      I think she rather will like being a partner.

  112. Wow. Pete & Trudy are really at the end of their rope.

  113. Pete has actually become the devil. He is Satan.

  114. Clearly Matt Weiner wants to set a tone that 1967 will not be a duplication of 1966.

    • Yeah, even worse sexism than before. I’m beginning to think he’s not just “shedding light” on the bad old days of extreme sexism, but rather enjoys it. This indecent proposal wouldn’t happen in real life, just in his lascivious imagination.

  115. This will be a soft letdown.

  116. Oh, Don, what are you going to say to Joan? In front of her mother?

    Oy oy oy oy oy oy oy.

  117. Will not sit well with Peggy if Joan becomes a partner.

  118. NICE DON!

    You’re still capable of redemption.

  119. Oh, she’s so happy to find out that Don didn’t vote with those bastards.

  120. doesn’t matter if she doesn’t do it; they all know she would have….so degrading.

  121. Don is the good one?

  122. She went anyway?????????????

    Kill me now.

  123. My God… this has a Godfather feel now.

  124. No, no, no, no, no.

  125. No, Joan!!!!!!

  126. “Those are two different stories.”

  127. “unattainable object” – yuck

  128. no…she’s going to set him up and make him the fool….she’ll pull a quickie an win in the end.

  129. Baptism scene in The Godfather with a woman involved.

  130. If i ever wanted a dream sequence it is right now.

  131. Joan sees dealer. Yes, this is 1967.

  132. My god, this scene is making me as sick as the Dr. Rapist scene.

    I am nauseated.

  133. I think I am going to throw up at Don’s pitch.

  134. oh no.

  135. OH!


  136. Do you renounce Satan? I know him he’s Peter Campbell.

  137. Whoa.

    • Kinda genius, because now we will all wonder what woulda happened if Don had learned earlier. And some will judge Joan less.

  138. Now I am going to cry.

  139. ‘Do you renounce Satan?’

  140. Gould’s dhoula woulda sequence. Sweet.

  141. Oh, Joan, Joan, Joan . . . πŸ™ πŸ™ πŸ™ This is such a tragic culmination of her whole storyline. A smart woman with so much potential who came along just a little too early to get the message that she could get the power she deserved using anything but her sexuality as leverage . . . a man she respects tells her literally minutes too late

    • Do you think if Don arrived earlier she wouldn’t have done it? I wonder.

      • Anyone wonder why Roger didnt stop her? They all believed Pete’s story about what Joan said. Everyone but Don and Roger knows her better than Don

  142. Very tired of the surprise time travel device.

    • Admittedly manipulative, but probably important in terms of how Weiner & Co want to manage perception of Joan.

  143. Wow, that sequence was beautiful and yet so, so disturbing and f$cked up.

  144. I vehemently want all the mad men shot dead now. I hate them all with the fire of a thousand suns.

  145. We just got rashomoned.

    • Please explain. Know it’s a Kurasowa movie but never saw it.

      • The same event is seen by the different perspectives of each character. In Rashomon it was a rape/murder. 3 people saw it, 3 different stories were given.

  146. Weeks ago I thought about the possibility of Joan becoming a partner. I could come up with a scenario to make that happen. I forgot about the obvious one.

  147. I didn’t think she would go through with it.

    • Didn’t Joan once say to Peggy that she wouldn’t want her job in a million years? Well, it turns out Joan did want power, and she knew her currency. Instead of brains, like Peggy, it’s sexuality. Given that she had an affair with Roger, probably affairs with other people, submitted to Dr. Rapist, I guess you could conceivably draw the line to this.

  148. Ginzo won the day. Joanie is Cleopatra in a red dress red lips and red hair.

  149. Don only went to discourage Joan because he wants to own her for himself. He’s the same asshole who threw money in Peggy’s face and forbade Megan from going to Boston.

  150. Why does Matt Weiner insist on subjecting the Joan character to nothing but degredation and humilation?

    • Cause she IS the girl none of us can have. So she has to pay. Another form of sexual violence towards women.

      • Is that truly how men think?

        Just the Jaguar tag line is what it’s all about? “Finally something beautiful you can really own”?

        I hate to think that half the human race thinks that way.

        • I remember in HS a guy liked me and I didn’t return the feelings, he was cruel to me after i turned him down. I guess that makes sense.

          • People Are Strange: “Women seem wicked, when you’re unwanted”. That’s why Joan is subjected to the degrad
            ation. You know she ain’t gonna want you.
            Its fucked up.

          • Tilden – great reference …. esp since The Doors’ first album came out in Jan 1967.

          • it’s the oldest story in the book – a guy who gets mean when a girl doesn’t return his affection. You think it ends in elementary school, but it never really changes. I guess it’s just the weird relationship between men and women.

  151. Switching from The Godfather to Robert DeNiro in The Untouchables:

    “Dead! I want him [Pete Campbell] dead!!!

  152. Thinkin’ I may have to stay up for the recap now.

  153. Mad Men: they’re all pimps in their core. With few exceptions.

  154. I’m nauseous. At least she knows Don is a good man. And Roger will never get the time of day from her again. My God.

    The vote was 4-0.

    But Pete didn’t actually say Don said okay. She asked about Roger.

    I’m not defending Pete but I don’t think he implied who said what except to confirm Roger was there.

    And Lane didn’t help either.

    20 min left!!

  155. Anyone taking odds on a casting couch?

  156. Oh, good, now Megan gets to be objectified. Yay.

  157. Joanie holds it over their heads just as much as they do.

  158. Cheough!

  159. Finally, Chaough.

  160. Get out Peggy and take Joan with you.

  161. DO IT PEGGY.

    DO IT.

  162. Lotsa payin’ for women tonight.

  163. $19,000 = $107,000 now.

  164. Don’s pitch for Jaguar was like the sick, dissipated cousin of the Kodak Carousel pitch.

  165. megan, go away.

  166. This is GOODBYE.

  167. What if they didn’t get it!!

  168. The partners are in. Including Joan.

    “Wasn’t even close.”

  169. They win Jaguar and lose their souls.

  170. Bid Pimping spending Cheese. Jay-Z.

  171. PLEASE Peggy STILL give your notice. PLEASE!!!!!!!!


  173. Do it, Peggy, do it!!!!!!!

  174. Probably the wrong time to mention Joan’s partnership.


  176. please say this is going to end as a dream sequence…all the key women are moving off..

  177. Oh, fuck you, Don.

  178. I hate you Don Draper.

  179. There’s no number.

    There was sort of a number.

    But now, there’s no number.

  180. I knew he’d kick her out immediately. And will he show up at her apartment, too?

  181. I’m just floored.

  182. You can’t be bought? Aren’t yo uall whores?

  183. PEGGY WINS.

    What a stunner.

  184. My heart is broken.

  185. Epic episode. Will be talked about forever.

  186. I am so glad that ended with Peggy’s smile. I was about to burst into tears.

  187. You really got me, you really got me.

  188. I’m not watching this show without Peggy. Not. Don better pimp himself to her.

    • My guess is that the character will remain part of the show..a la Betty and Sally; or, EM decided it was time to leave. I can’t believe that MW decided to write her out.

  189. That was either the best or the worst episode of Mad Men ever.

    (Minus the Megan stuff, which I basically ignored).

    • “It was the best of times…it was the worst of times.”–C. Dickens

    • You could have edited out all the Megan scenes and the script would have been rock solid. Which is the one flaw of this episode.

      • Yes! During all of the Megan scenes, I was yelling at the TV, “I don’t care! Get back to the real story!” Irritating. I couldn’t care less about Megan’s “acting” and “determination.”

  190. OMG – the elevator shaft. That was scary.

  191. Kinks! “You Really Got Me” – not one of those guys “get” the women, at all.

    • This is totally what I got from the episode, too. “Finally, something beautiful you can own.” No one is owning any of these women, not Megan, not Peggy, and despite what they think, not Joan, either (she’s so much smarter than they have ever realized!!). Kudos to all of these women!

  192. Smiling while crying over here!

    JOAN, JOAN, JOAN!!!!!!!

    Oh My God!!!!! I am speechless. Have to process it all. Wow.

  194. Absolutely the most controversial episode of the entire series, even more than Tomorrowland. And think about it, Don wasn’t the focus of the episode.

    I was not surprised one bit that Joan did it. She has always had a price.

    Ironically Peggy is the one Don could not buy in the end.

    • I will reply to this, but not right now because I am too stunned at your comment, I will reply with the fire of the sun beamed down on a place/time that allows this plot line to even be considered.

      • Techno is correct unfortunately. Joan agreed to a relationship with Roger and expected he would marry her. Joan married Greg, expecting to be the wife of a doctor. To Joan they were both transactions in way, with the parties involved potentially bringing something to the table. Price is a matter of context.

        • Joan did not expect to marry Roger, in fact she was seeing other men during that time and she had a roommate which Roger wanted her to get rid of. She was enjoying him but wasn’t counting on anything, not even the gifts he gave her,,,remember the bird in the cage? She did try to fit the role of wife for Greg, but could not bend that much. She made a good faith effort which in the end failed but not because of her. She chose poorly. Is everything always a transaction? I don’t think so. Do we have children so we have someone to take care of us in our old age? That would be the ultimate transaction wouldn’t it? By the way, I assure you as one who has worked with older patients, that transaction doesn’t always work out so well.

  195. So we’ve recently seen return appearances by:

    Paul Kinsey
    Freddie Rumsen
    Ted Chaough

    I wonder who’s next?

  196. Don and Peggy goodbye gif

  197. I actually feel physically shaken over here. It’s true – Matthew Weiner is a feminist. Showing the unbridled ugliness.

  198. That was a difficult episode.

    • Yes, very difficult to watch. Eventually, I knew these women had to move on. The men that surround them are wonderful, but each is limited in his own way. The women had to break free.

  199. Well I asked for a PEGCENTRIC episode, and boy did we get one!

    • Pegs does nothing all year then leaves. Great. Joanie is smart. You know it, but don’t want to admit it, because it gives credit to Peter Satan Campbell.

      • It sound cynical tk….but, part of growing up is admitting that we all have to pay a price. Life involves deciding just what you price you are willing to pay. I haven’t walked in Joan’s shoes…so, I don’t have the right to judge her.

        • What’s wrong with this?

        • Is it too cynical to say that most women “prostitute” themselves in one way or another? Seems Joanie got something long-lasting and valuable for HERSELF in the process…not a bad play on her part.

  200. Holy Jeez!

    No more Peggy????????

    Where does this leave us???

    • Two options: 1) Elisabeth Moss is off the show 2) Elisabeth Moss returns in future episodes. I hope it’s 2)

  201. Don did not celebrate. The price was too high!

  202. “This is business not personal” Godfather reference. In the book “The Godfather” just before the baptism, Micheal made a statement to the effect “Everything is Personal”. This is the theme this season.

    • And the personal is political….

    • I remember it being much earlier in the book than that, before he kills Sollozzo and the police captain, when Hagen tells him it’s just business, Michael answers, “It’s all personal; Tom, Every piece of shit a man has to eat his whole life, it’s all personal.” I could be wrong, I haven’t read the book in years and years. I’m pretty sure I still have it somewhere around here. [goes off to look through this mess]

      • Yup, I found it. In Chapter Eleven of The Godfather, right before Michael goes off to the restaurant to take care of Sollozzo and Captain McCluskey, an exchange not in the movie:

        “You shouldn’t let that broken jaw influence you,” Hagen said. “McCluskey is a stupid man and it was business, not personal.”
        For the second time he saw Michael Corleone’s face freeze into a mask that resembled uncannily the Don’s. “Tom, don’t let anybody kid you. It’s all personal, every bit of business. Every piece of shit every man has to eat every day of his life is personal. They call it business. OK. But it’s personal as hell. You know where I learned that from? The Don. My old man. The Godfather. If a bolt of lightning hit a friend of his the old man would take it personal.”

  203. Just not getting Dons kissing her hand like that. Was it a plea?

    • I think it was his true feeling of loss showing through, despite the nasty things he said.

      • I agree – he has genuine respect and admiration for Peggy, never mind what comes up in the heat of the moment.

    • Both of those things and more. Perhaps an echo of the pilot, where she puts her hand on his, and The Suitcase, where he puts his hand on hers.

    • He was paying homage to Peggy, recognizing all she means to him. Very poignant moment!

      • Pretty much took it as such. Didn’t know if I was making that up and maybe I was missing something. This is a very insightful group so the extra feedback is well appreciated.

      • That’s such a perfect way to put it: paying homage to Peggy. Don’s not very good at expressing himself, emotionally, through dialogue, but hits it out of the park with his gestures.

    • Her hand has been featured before. In the first madmen episode, Peggy makes the first pass at Don by putting her hand on his. He rejects it and immediately establishes that theirs would be a professional relationship. In the suitcase episode, Don reaches for Peggy’s hand for comfort, reassurance, friendship. In tonight’s episode, he kisses her hand as a sign of respect, like a courtier to a lady.

      • I actually thought it was more like a father to his daughter. He’s taught her well. She even called him a mentor. Now it’s time for her to go and spread her own wings. It was a kiss of true affection. He’s saddened by her leaving, but respects her and wishes her well.

    • don’t you think it shows how much he cares for her? it just seemed like he was feeling a lot of regret, but being Don, he can’t apologize easily. he knows he’ll miss her terribly though, she’s been with him through so much.

      • ,,,and Don respects what a true and real professional Peggy is, especially after this situation wiith Joan is revealed to him when Joan joins the partners. Joan is trafficking in the only thing she has – and she did say her mother raised her to be ‘admired’ after all. It’s the advertising company version of Hollywod’s way woman ‘get to the top’. I’m not sure what Joan is so proud of, but to listen to the Inside Episode tape after, Christina H said Joan knows that each of the guys has done worse than she has so she can hold her head up….I’m just shocked, however. Shocked. Is she planning to close accounts in this way every time she’s asked? I’m just shocked. Shocked.

  204. So proud of you Peggy, you where my favorite from the first episode. Mad Men wont be the same. Hope we still see her from time to time. F&$k what a episode.

  205. Does this mean Ken’s out the door, too? Is Peggy going to live up to her end of the pact? She didn’t include a position for Ken in her negotiation with Teddy.

  206. Peter has driven the bus all season with his lunacy. Whet a fantastic character he has become.

    • You are so right. And now he’s angling for an apartment in the city so he can get himself his own little Jaguar.

  207. I want to go back and hug the women who came before me, who lived through that time (and times even worse before), and fought for something better, and made it not so awful anymore (for many of us…it’s not perfect yet…).

    • The bravery of the women who endured those times is incredible.

      My mother is about Peggy’s age. She’s an English professor. People she was in grad school with told me she was the star grad student in their department. Yet while she was working on her Ph.D., the chairman of the department told her she should drop out of the program because she was “taking up a spot” that could go to “a man who needed to support his family.”

      By the way, at the time, she was a divorced mother bringing me up on her own.

      • Isn’t that something? Yes, I admire women who prepared the path for us, too.

      • Your mom has balls. I say that with respect.

      • Ugghh … reminds me of the twerp marrying a high school friend a few years after this (around 1970). She had basically gone to college for her M R S – a home ec major (who “majors in home economics, even then?). Well I met this guy once, when I dropped off a gift for their wedding. We spent about 2 minutes alone during which time he made clear his disdain for women in general, and asked why I was bothering with college as I was only going to get married and stay home and raise kids anyway so it was a waste of money and – significantly for the era – taking up space some man could use (e.g. for draft deferment.) I informed him my chosen career path required both undergraduate and graduate school, I was attending a (then) women’s college so no guy was affected, and marriage and kids were not in my immediate future and I intended to be able to support myself because men could be so unreliable (my parting shot, lol.) Long story short I heard she divorced the creep after a few years.

    • Yes, those of us in the “younger set” (I not among them), might think a lot of this sexist stuff on MM is fiction, and crazy, and never could’ve happened. Well, it did. That’s why there’s so many laws to prevent it from happening again. I feel for the women that bent the arc. Hell, even in the 70s and 80s I experienced some s&!$. I can’t imagine a generation before.

    • Thank you, at times it was painful, lots of self doubt, discouragement, and depression. It was ugly. And it is not over yet, I thought it would be by now, but it isn’t. So, hang tough, and remember ( my brother told me this in the early ’70’s) They can kill you, but they can’t eat your bones.

  208. Edited. Watch it, Gary.

    -Mad Chick

  209. Also, $50,000 in 1966 = $282,812. That’s real money, even now.

  210. Thank science MW put this episode on tonight. I would be useless tomorrow if I had to go to work. How am I supposed to sleep now?

  211. btw…again the fish reference….lobster, et. al

  212. Stan’s plea to Peggy to stick with mediocrity when she is was in the process of hiring Ginsberg is like chickens coming home to roost.

    Peggy moved over for the money but she also moved over for the respect.

    Of course Chaough may not come through. But isn’t that how real life is?

    • And regardless of who he is, she made her own choice. She did it.

    • Does anyone think that Chaough only offered her more money to ensure she left Don? I think if another woman had the same credentials as Peggy but did not come from his rival, he would not have upped the salary

      • From the little we’ve seen of Chaough, he has enough savvy to know how to strategize and make things look good and sound good to the people he wants to hire. We don’t know if it really is great to work for him, but he seems to be good at making offers. He told Pete that he’d be open to making him a partner.

        • I completly forgot that this was the same guy who offered Pete partnership, and Pete turned him down. Would Pete turn him down now if Chaough were to make the same offer now?

      • He told her why he was offering her more “only, if this is the last meeting you have”. He did it to basically force her into the decision. Not a bad negotiation strategy if you want them more than they want to come.

      • Didn’t Smitty work for him at one time?

        • Yes, in the Honda episode and Ted treated Smitty shitty and knew that Peg was pimping Ted’s Honda campaign with a SCDP decoy.

          • I hope Teddy has forgotten about Peggy’s role in the phony Honda motorcycle ad. Maybe he hasn’t and enticed her over to his agency to take away one of Don’s stars – only to not treat her well once she’s there. Given what we’ve seen tonight, there’s apparently no sleazy or manipulative tactic that some agency people won’t use, to ultimately get what they desire.

  213. Don’t worry fans. Joan will reel Peggy back with a new Title, big bucks, and a corner office … after all … Joannie is now Boss!.

    PS; Don’t forget to keep on an eye on Mike Ginsburg … the new ceative star at SCDL … DD watch your backside.

    • You are probably right. But I think MW will have fun with letting her spread her wings for most of the next season. Maybe she’ll come back, but now so quickly. Maybe it’ll be part of next year’s season finale. I think it’ll be fun to witness some of her adventures.

      • I think so too!

        • Fuck that, man. Beloved Pegs is gone and there’s no one to replace her. Permission to MW and staff to conceive Contrived Plotline Device to get her ass back. I’m disconsolate. I am NOT WATCHING without Peggy.

          • Tilden, I was assuming that we’d see Peggy competing against Don and Ginsburg for future clients.

            At least, I hope so! MW would be a fool to get rid of her, considering that she’s one of the best actors in the series and almost the only character with integrity. He needs that if for no other reason than contrast!

          • To Elizabeth:

            Let’s not forget that Peggy’s integrity had her spreading her le, er wings for Duck and McCann

    • RD — I tend to agree. Liked most of the Joan and Peggy stuff, but can’t go all “most epic episode” ever if only because i think Peggy will be back. Would have felt there was more at stake if she wasn’t going over to Teddy Chaogh. We pretty much know she’ll end up loathing that guy. The Joan stuff, though, was rock solid. Thought everyone handled their part in that story well — Joan herself, of course, but also Pete, Lane and Don. My only criticism was her asking about Roger’s vote. To me that sounds more like a like a line to keep fans happy than one that Joan would ask. At this point I can’t imagine her being interested as Roger, much as I love the guy.

      The Megan stuff was flat as pancake.

      Oh, and good to see Freddy Rumsen for a drive-by. His line of advice about Don being a “big boy” and if he wasn’t “the subject” of the conversation he would tell you to leave was one of those little MM gems. Cool that Peggy keeps in touch with him.

      My prediction is Peggy will be recruited back early in S6. Like first or second episode. No way MW is dropping her character.

      • 2BG – Two things. I totally agree that Megan acts like a spoiled brat with her “obsessive need” to be an actor … its tiresome already.

        In a related context, Don’s acting moment when he “suddenly” realized Peggy really was serious about walking … was absolutely stunning … the shock, pain, regret, remorse and “what the F^&*% did I do” came through brilliantly … JH is one great actor! And so is Ms. Peggy! She brought tears to my eyes.

  214. Any women applauding what Joan did in this episode must have some kind of Stockholm syndrome.

    • It is sort of post-feminist though.

    • Not sure about that. She acquired some security for herself and her child and I think women in particular sympathize with her predicament.

      • Strictly business. Scruples don’t pay the rent. The rest is just conversation. You gotta look out for No. 1.

        • Yeah, except for the pointed scene in which she wouldn’t take money from Roger, and no particular note of her finances having changed since then. So if she suddenly has that attitude, it’s a real problem.

  215. Good grief what an episode.

    I need something cleared up for me regarding Mean Megan: Did she put out for the casting director or show skin? I was under the impression that she didn’t get the part (she came back to NY real fast). Megan says that she’d do whatever it took to succeed, and she did sleep with Don while he was seeing someone else (and look where that got her). My point is Megan seems opportunistic enough, but I just wanted clarification if possible. lol

    Never thought Joan would sell herself like that. This was the gal who had rules for Roger in S1; she had clear standards and wouldn’t cross or compromise. Poor Joan…the only reason I see her doing this is for the money (5% partnership is worth $$$$$), and she’s too proud to ask for help or tell Greg to pony up the dough for child support/alimony whatnot.

    Is Elisabeth Moss leaving the show? It would break my heart if she did. She was one of my favorites from the beginning, and one of the few truly ‘good’ characters on the show. When I say ‘good’ I mean, ‘good person’. Don’s great but the guy can be a real heel. EM may not be leaving, there are ways to keep Peggy on the show (she hasn’t left the ad world), and maybe she will return to Don. To think that Don’s biggest mistake was throwing that money at her, and underappreciating her for so long…and now she seems to be going. She had a killer exit, loved the song. I half expected someone to run after her though – but no one did. I wonder if Ken Cosgrove is going to keep his end of the pact and leave with Peggy. It would serve Don right if he did, but now that there’s Jaguar, who knows. lol

    • Some of us have speculated that there was more to Elisabeth Moss not attending any of the promotional events or being part of the episode of ITAS than just her being “out of the country” on business.

      I hope this does not mean the end of Peggy as a regular character on the show.

      • EM was in fact out of the country. In Basket of News w/in the past couple of weeks, she did a Gold Derby interview, via Skype, from which it was pretty clear she has set up a place in Queensland.

        • Thanks Karl…I didn’t want to be part of a conspiracy and I don’t want to lose EM or Ballerina.

    • Aurora, here is my take on Megan.

      She clearly wasn’t happy about the three men looking her over.

      And it has been always my belief she had to make a choice: Don or acting.

      Tonight she chose Don. And notice how passionate she was in telling Don she wanted him to succeed.

      Once Don tells Megan about Peggy leaving I think he will make her an offer she can’t refuse. Don now is shorthanded in the copywriting department. He needs Megan’s return in a big way.

      Look for Megan to return to the firm in light of Peggy leaving. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Don gave her Peggy’s job as senior copywriter. Being the boss, she will no longer be treated so cynically by her colleagues.

      • I don’t think she chose Don. I think she chose her self-respect — she avoided the casting couch, so they didn’t choose her. I don’t think Don had anything to do with Megan’s decision as to what to do in that room.

        And I hope you are wrong about Megan returning to SCDP. I personally don’t need to see anymore of that plot line.

        • I don’t want Megan coming back to SCDP, she said it best herself, she wants to act, she didn’t enjoy copy-writing (nothing to do with her treatment there, which wasn’t all that bad considering the fact that she was a newcomer who essentially landed a cushy job with having no prior background in the area whatsoever).

          I don’t see Megan picking Don over acting either. She didn’t tell him about the possible 10 weeks in Boston (or maybe she did and he forgot), but I don’t see anything or anyone standing in Megan’s way of acting (which why I am stunned that she took the self-respect root and denied herself a shot at the part – I think she would have gotten it too, she’s very pretty).

        • Megan replacing Peggy is like New Coke replacing Coca Cola. Mad Men is over. I am out.

        • It is not something that Megan would prefer to do but I think you will see a bit of chaos in the next episode among the copywriting staff.

          Do you think Don is going outside the firm to replace Peggy when his own wife was a copywriter at the firm? Don is not a happy camper. And he will tell Megan how unhappy he will be if she doesn’t help him out.

          And Megan although reluctantly will have to put her acting career on hold for the time being. After all it is advertising money that is keeping her in the lifestyle she has grown accustomed to.

      • Megan in no way, shape, or form, deserves to be a senior copywriter. That would equate to even more nepotism than before, and the special treatment she received at SCDP was sickening enough the first time around.

      • Just how cynically was Megan treated?

        • Peggy implying that Megan didn’t care about work, Harry graphically describing how he wanted to screw her in the break room, listening to Peggy make snide comments about Joan behind her back.

    • Didn’t she break the pact by calling it “fiction” to Ken?

      • I thought she was just super bumbed over Don’s treatment of her and was just lashing out at Ken. lol I’d hate to not see Ken Cosgrove on the show…maybe he can do what Don can’t and convince Peggy to stay.

    • Joan was also the one who, from Season 1, always put her faith in Playing The Game. She knew all the rules and played everyone masterfully. When Peggy came along and refused to do it her way, she was baffled and angry. Finally they seemed to have learned some mutual respect, but they still never changed their approaches. In this episode, Joan decided (for ill or good) to go on Playing The Game. Peggy didn’t.

      That last look from Joan as she saw Peggy leaving summed it up. Joan was there on the inside, part of the success, but what she had to do for it (?) As she saw Peggy leave, what was she thinking? Who really did it right?

      • Excellent point: there has always been that two ways to skin a cat dynamic between Joan and Peggy and it was fitting that it was Joan who noticed her leaving.

    • Joan now has a baby (and herself) to support. That seems to have changed how she looks at rules and standards and compromise.

      • Joan made a decent living. She didn’t have to prostitute herself. Also Roger offered her plenty of money a couple of weeks ago. Why didn’t she just take that?

  216. Would anyone have guessed that Joan would get to be partner before Peggy?

    • Actually, I would have. Joan has always had more power there, and not just because of her sexuality.

      • I agree. Joan understands the big picture a bit more. She has leadership abilities. Peggy will have them in time, too, but not quite yet.

  217. How was tonight’s episode of MM? “dirty”. Still love that Sally line.

  218. Wow. Don is worse than the rest of them. How DARE HE suggest he gave Peggy everything. And then he tried to BUY HER.

    You HYPOCRITICAL SOB! I feel better now.

    At least Pete was open about it. Don… exactly why do you think you hold the moral ground here?

    • Yes — he only sees her as an extension of himself. “Everything good you have I gave you” or however he said it. As if she hasn’t spent the last 6 years working her ass off.

      He still thinks he “gave” her her success, not that she earned it through her ideas and her work.

      She was right, with that attitude (and throwing money at her like she was a whore), it was time for her to leave.

      • I’ve had senior partners just like that. “We started this, everything you have is due to us.”

      • They always think they are responsible for your success but he’s partly right. She had the raw talent, he mentored her into developing what she had, treated her like one of the guys (not a secretary) And throwing money at her? How many times did she want a raise? As Jon Hamm says in the behind the scenes video Peggy has always been a little tone deaf in that area. What Don is deaf to is her need for acknowledgment. She wants to be recognized with an occasional attagirl; he feels she’s needy (and she is, to some extent) and gets his respect when she gets her paycheck.

    • As I said below, it wasn’t his best moment, but hardly comparable to the rest of them’s prostitution of Joan…

    • It was an act of desperation, he could see she meant it so demeaning her accomplishments were a (admittedly very poor) last resort.

    • are you allowed to say sob?

  219. I have a question. In terms of “real-time chronology,” not the order they were shown in the episide, did the pitch, Joan having sex with the client, and Don going to see Joan happen? Based on the necklace, I know that Don went to see her after she slept with the client, but when did the pitch actually happen?

    I thought the look Ginsberg had on his face when he saw the lobster was quite telling. I’m not sure which is more unbelievable, that Joan actually slept with the client, or that Peggy left.

    • The pitch happened the next morning I think. The “client” seemed very pleased with himself. He didn’t have Joan anymore than Greg did on the floor of Don’s office. Her body was there but she was a million miles away.

      • So, in order- Joan sleeps with client, Don goes to see her, and then the pitch. Thanks for answering the question.

    • I think the pitch happened the next day, and showing the scene with Joan was a flashback.

      • Ooohh, that did not occur to me at all – thanks for explaining. πŸ™‚ I found it odd that the same scene was being replayed twice, I just thought he was checking on her twice, driving the point home. Whenever I see flashbacks in a show, they tend to be more obvious. lol

    • I was confused, did Don go see Joan twice?

  220. Gary Middleton, your comments have been edited. No more with the whore stuff about Peggy or you will end up on permanent moderation.

  221. Ugh, I just don’t feel like I can defend Weiner and Co. on this one. It feels so slimy.

    • It does feel awful, but I also feel glad that Weiner and Co showed how ugly it truly was for many women at that time (and, who am I kidding, still today in many circumstances and places). He wants us to be outraged, not to blame Joan, but to be horrified by the situation she was put in by those disgusting men. That’s how I see it, anyway, and which is why I’m actually grateful to him for it.

  222. If I were a gender studies professor, I’d show this episode to my class. Bravo, Matthew Weiner, and thank you!

  223. I bet we’ll see Peggy at Chaough’s. I have no doubt we will — Don HATES Ted Chaough, and to have Peggy there will create a LOT of tension. We’re not going to lose Peggy to MM, just to SCDP — Or is it now SCDPH?

  224. Edited. – MadChick
    Unrelated: I cannot wait to see if we find out how Peggy’s mother reacts to Peggy’s big changes.

    Great title for this episode.

    • As my comment has been edited, how is this: I think a big discussion question will be, what price is one willing to pay to succeed, to move forward?

      I’m thinking of Bonnie Raitt’s song, “Success”…

  225. It was HUGELY different paying Joan to sleep with the mega-creep and Don’s throwing of the money at Peggy. It wasn’t a decent thing to do, sure, but it wasn’t sub-human Γ  la Pete. I almost saw it as a manifestation of his frustration/ sadness at her leaving, as it seems Peggy did herself, judging by their goodbye.

    Also think the way Don reacted re Joan (especially in comparision to Roger and even Lane) will only add fuel to the fire of the don/joan ‘shippers. Including myself!

  226. Don said to Peggy, “I will spend the rest of my life trying to hire you”. Well….here we go.

  227. Here is the baptism scene from The Godfather, so you can compare with tonight.

    • Actually, I didn’t realize how violent this is. If you’ve never seen The Godfather unedited, be warned.

      • There is actually a living, breathing, human being in captivity that hasn’t seen the great American story? Come on, you can’t be serious.?

  228. i thought this was an amazing episode. it reminded me of episodes 11-13 the year before last. each one was more intense than the last. why does anyone think peggy is leaving? i doubt it. and as far as joan, well…seems to me she has looked at her life and has decided she will do what she has to do. after all, folks, she slept with roger for some time and i believe at one point there was a fur coat involved. she is a great character…i love joan, and i don’t think less of her after this episode. what i think is that weiner is showing us the ugly truth of … well … mad men. as far as mrs. draper and eveyone’s dislike of her (or almost everyone) is it b/c she is not betty? did anyone expect his marriage to last or, as reader’s digest (or was it lady’s home journal?) ‘can this marriage be saved?’

  229. I’ve identified with Peggy so much since the first episode. My first day at work was in June 1963, Peggy’s was in 1960. She is me, in so many ways. And there has been so much of what’s happened to her in the past 5 seasons that resonates to much with my own experiences on the job.

    This is also a double hitter. But what happened tonight with Joan, the objectification, the pimping of her body, of HER, by the men in her life, and those she’s worked with for years, all for the bottom line, the almighty dollar, and for their own selfish sexual pleasure, is really too much. Too much, because it’s been part of women’s lives, all their lives, in big and little ways.

    The 2 story lines together, were so hard hitting, and at the same time, personally it feels like being hit over the head with a baseball bat. Reading the posts at BoK for an hour after each episode, then watching the encore, and reading for hours more has been the highlight of my weekend for too long.

    And now instead, I’m sitting here trying very hard not to cry, instead. This is great TV, folks. And it’s great TV BECAUSE it’s all too real at the same time.

    • Brooklyn Jan, I wish we were watching together so that I could commiserate with you. This episode was hard to take for me — and I am sure much harder for someone like you, who lived through similar scenarios.

    • I know. I feel physically VERY affected by this episode, and have been on the verge of tears for the last 40 minutes. I feel shaken up and hurt and traumatized, just by being a woman.

    • BJ, it may sound corny; but I think the creative forces behind MM would be so proud to know what a personal chord their work struck with you.

    • I agree with all of your comments. This one will stick with me, and had me upset and crying at the end. I was horrified during the scene with Joan and the client and kept hoping she would change her mind because of his crudeness and ignorance, especially after she had already pointed out the “two different stories” by the time he asked to see “them.” Ugh. When Don threw that money at Peggy. In her face. In front of her colleagues. At that moment, I said aloud to my t.v., “Girl, it is time for you to GO. NOW!” I am so disgusted with Don. He really thought she was making up the story about a job just to get a raise. He takes her for granted to such a degree that it never even occurred to him that others would see in her what he himself recognized as natural talent. Her little smile and the music at the end got me pumped for her and helped me get over some of the trauma of this episode. Hope someone explains to Joan that Peggy’s decision to give notice was unrelated to knowing Joan had made partner. Great writing and, as Jan points out, a true rendering of what many women face(d) in the workplace.

  230. I’m reminded of the different ways Joan and Peggy handled Joey’s sexist maltreatment of Joan in The Summer Man. Joey was fixated on Joan’s sexual nature and drew a pornographic cartoon of her. Joan handled it by telling him and the other guys off, saying that she never liked them and that she couldn’t wait until they were in Vietnam and that they wouldn’t be dying for her; Peggy handled it by firing Joey.

    • Not trying to judge right or wrong, but Joanie has always been more practical than Peggy. However, Ballerina has really matured…think of that mousey, naive secretary in Season 1.

      BRAVO PEGS!!!!!!!!

      • Freddy is the only person who has ever treated Peggy with the respect due her and never talked down to her.

        By the way a little off topic, but I wonder if Peggy had discussed this move with Abe before she made the move?

        Could the idea of her wanting more money be an indication her relationship with Abe has gone south and that she needs more money to live on her own in a lifestyle she has grown accustomed to?

        • I don’t think she left for money. I think she left because she was fed up with the disrespect.

          • I am stunned that Peggy lasted so long in that environment as it is. There are very few moments when Don paid Peggy respect, or gave her her due (one was in the S3 finale, when he finally apologized and told her that he would spend the rest of his life trying to hire her – I hope he still feels that way, serves him right if he does).

            Any other woman (or person) might have left in tears years ago, but Peggy put up with so much out of loyalty to Don (true loyalty, maybe even friendly professional affection). The money throwing scene was a no-going-back turning point. He can’t undo what he did, no matter what he offers her now or what he says. The ship seems to have sailed. πŸ™

            Earlier tonight I wanted Peggy to find a way back to SCDP, but I seem to have changed my mind. I love Peggy, and she can and will do better, she deserves better than the scraps that Don Draper gave her, that attitude of ‘I gave you everything, you owe your life to me’ stuff. Peggy had natural talent (first seen by one Freedy Rumsen), and though Don cultivated it, Peggy blossomed on her own (especially when Don was more concerned with his child bride than her).

        • It’s very possible she discussed it with Abe, or he was on her to make a change.
          Don’s behavior to her was incredibly insulting. It wasn’t just throwing the money. It was doing it in front of her colleagues.

        • There was that time Freddy compared her to “a dog playing the piano.”

        • Abe moved into Peggy’s apartment that she was already paying for, and we have had prior discussions about the likelihood that she was making more money than he was. I never got the impression that Peggy needed money from Abe to support her lifestyle.

        • Yes he did if you remember the episode where he misjudged her motives to get a husband like all women.

    • She fired him because Don told her she could, or words to that effect. Joan did not have that power, but now maybe she does, finally.

  231. 213.J says:
    May 27, 2012 at 11:26 pm .Any women applauding what Joan did in this episode must have some kind of Stockholm syndrome

    Thank you.
    That was sickening, Thank God, Peggy is out of that cesspool.

    • Peggy hasn’t gone to work for a 2012 company, or for herself. She’s gone to work for another ad company, where they’re all the same. But she is being hired for her merits this time, and not beholden to anyone in the same way she was with Don. So she personally will be above some of it. But it will still be there.

      • Good point. I think the only difference is that this new firm (which is likely as much of a sexist nightmare as SCDP) won’t see her as the “secretary from Brooklyn who wants to help” (or whatever Freddy Rumson said) – she’ll come in with more respect.

        In spite of promise’s of a fancy lunch – I think it will be the same crap at the new place.

  232. yes, i think the feeling of being hit over the head is very apt. i did not mean to be critical of anyone’s remarks…i just thought the episode was incredible. incredible can be good; incredible can be bad. or both. (boy am i cooking with gas tonight!!) i suppose in part it is b/c i was mildly disappointed with last season. it all seemed flat. i am always anxious to see the next episode, no less so after tonight. and always sad to see the season coming to an end.

  233. Don’s problem is that he always treated Peggy as the little girl that became his secretary in the very first episode.

    Don, your little girl has grown up. It’s always the “parents” who are the last to discover that.

    • Indeed — he seems unable to see Peggy for who she has become. In his eyes, she’s still the same person she was in 1960 – the little girl to whom he gave a chance.

    • He pretty much shot himself in the foot by not taking her seriously when she stated she was done. I sense a possible return of Peggy, but it won’t be anytime soon. Or at least I hope it’s that way. Hopefully they will be focusing on her adjusting to a new agency, because she is the other main character of the series.

    • I can’t remember whether someone said it on MM, or where else I heard it, but—-

      As long as you stay here and no matter how high you try to rise, they will always think of you as the [peon] you were originally.

  234. What may be lost in this episode is that SCDP landed the Jaguar account.

    Jaguar was definitely NOT a MacGuffin.

    • What am I with predictions? Zero for a million? Ha!! Pathetic. Wonder what the real folks at Jaguar think of this episode.

    • Actually, it was. Look at all these comments. Getting Jaguar was the Macguffin. What happens with Joan, Peggy, and Don was the real story.

    • Indeed they did. But “It wasn’t even close,” which makes Joan’s involvement–in the final analysis– unnecessary. So, who played the fool, after all?

  235. Some bloggers are claiming that Megan will eventually have to make the same choice as Joan.

    Bottom line: Joan made her decision based on her being a single parent with a young baby (and a broken refrigerator) while Megan is married to a highly successful ad man and has no children.

    This line of argument makes absolutely no sense. Megan is not desperate and as long as she is married to Don she never will be.

  236. I read much of the outrage above, and I’m not sure I understand it. It makes me feel like I’ve been watching a different show to many of you. How can you be suprised as to the depths these characters will sink: Pete (a r@pist), and Joan (a status-seeker, who married her r@pist), especially.

    This episode seems to me to be about old-fashioned feminity vs ‘the new woman’ (or the ‘other woman’).

    While the Joans of this world were deciding whether they were a Marilyn or a Jackie, another group, the Peggys, were deciding to play the game a different way – instead of extracting a high-price, they effectively said “your money is no good here; I’m not playing your game”.

    Hooray for Peggy.

    • When you have marketable skills, you can do that. Do you think Joan could transfer her skill set to another business at a higher salary? Unlikely in 1966.

      • Actually I don’t think it would even occur to Joan to develop other skills. She was brought up to leverage the hell out of her old-fashioned femine powers, and that’s what she does.

        Peggy represents the whole paradigm shift away from Joan’s worldview.

        Surprised the credits music wasn’t “Sister’s are doin’ it for themselves” (vs. “(You make me feel like a) Natural Woman”, which was 1967 btw).

        • Peggy doesn’t have the same “skill set” Joan does. And let me tell you, even in 2012 sadly enough, that still matters

          • Yes for many a pretty, confdent, sexual woman can do no wrong. That seems like an unchanging thought.

            Nonetheless at the start of 1967, MW is showing the start of the decline of the Joan mindset, and the emergence of the Peggy mindset.

            Joan has many other skills (she’s a damn fine office manager). But she still she chooses to be defined by her “skill set” – she probably thinks there is no other way to behave … but Peggy’s story shows that there is a new way for women to get what they want.

            Great contrast from MW and the writing crew. Bravo!

  237. What a shocking episode. And Pete is amoral. In a perfect world, some evil will come back to Pete.

  238. the way don looked at joan when they all heard the wone the jaguar account kind of puts that folksy bar scene from last week in a different light.

    • In theory, it might give Don some insight, if he reflects on it. Joan told him, “How do you start over with a baby?”

      • yeah, she protected herself, her family, for a price and who are we to say it was too high a price to pay? maybe the tradeoff, although initially demeaning, was not to high a price

        now she can fire harry, hah

    • Rewatched that episode this morning. Joan did make a point of explaining to Don what a bleak future she had to look forward to in her life as a single parent.

      Remember Don told her to not to tell a lover about Kevin until you go “all the way.”

      But the key point Don was making to Joan is that she needed to find a man to take care of her.

      Joan chose to not go that route but instead to insure her own future as a single parent by becoming a partner. Not traditional but it’s now 1967. And of course not something Don would have recommended. But remember Don is old school.

      • In 1966 only the most radical of radicals would tell Joan that she didn’t need a man or expect that she wouldn’t want one. Don is no more old school on the issue than any average American of the time.

    • They had to do the bar scene so that when he goes to her apt to tell her not go through with it, it makes sense to us why he would do that. Refreshed our minds to the bond they have so we bought the scene in her apt tonight.

  239. As an aside, we now know why they (MM producers) didn’t go to Jaguar (the real company) asking for product placement cash. Jaguar should have seen that something unsavory was coming, but they’ve been a bit smug in their public pronouncements – until now. Now we’ll hear all about how this is “just fiction”, of course.

    • They say truth is stranger than fiction, but sometimes fiction is stranger than truth.

  240. Re-watch time.

  241. Peggy gets responsibilities. But no lobster from the Palm.

    • Yeah that was for “the guys”, including some freelancers. Of course it was Roger who ordered it.

    • And with Ginsbergs background, it is a possibility he keeps kosher. Ironic he was the one to open the lid.

    • I missed that the first time. Huge mistake not to include Peggy in the lunch.

      • I didn’t realize Peggy wasn’t included in lunch. Seriously???????

        • She wasn’t working on the Jaguar pitch, pretty standard practice even today.

        • Yeah Peggy outside looking in at the Jaguar boys (including freelancers) about to feast on lobster. No lobster for Peggy, but lucky her, she gets to handle Secor laxatives. I think the only reason she wasn’t allowed to work on Jaguar was because she is a woman, correct?

    • Looking thru the glass??? That was like a literal glass ceiling (except it was wall… work with me).

  242. Gotta say I am a bit sad by Joans decision. I am also growing tired of Megan, as I am sure Don is .

  243. Peggy is just playing a different game, and one where she will still have a male boss and not be a partner. I was very excited by her quitting, but just saying, the deck is still stacked against her.

  244. BTW, Pete is despicable. But he read Joan’s non-denial denial correctly.

  245. So, when do we get our cathartic episode? Ha.

  246. Not to put a few posters on suicide watch, but I wonder if Peggy’s leaving will pave the way for Megan’s return to SCDP.

    • Yes…it was suggested in a earlier post and tilden is on suicide watch!!! Love you tk!

      • LOL!

        • Tilden is juggling the marbles in his hand, and mumbling something about strawberries.
          Joanie has nothing but contempt for Peter Satan Campbell. But, if it wasn’t for his Machiavellian suggestion she wouldn’t be a partner right now. Don’t think that Satan won’t remind her of that salient fact.
          Oh, what a deadly web we weave………

          • They need to go back to Stan’s SnoBall art and exchange Pete’s face for Don’s.

    • I have always thought Megan would return to the agency; and I also thought the pathway back had to go through Peggy. Now the table has been set.

      • Thud. That’s the sound of MM hitting the floor. To think that a nothingness like Madamoiselle will replace the richness of beloved Pegs. I’m gagging.

        • Having Megan come in to “replace” Peggy would really be jumping the shark. Peggy worked her way into that job over 6 years and a lot of hard work and successes. Megan’s got no experience, nothing but one good idea. Ginsberg has more creds for the job than Megan does. She has none, whatsoever, other than she’s sleeping with Don.

          Going outside to bring in someone new who also has years of proven success is even a better idea.

          • There is a snowball’s chance in hell that Don is going to promote Ginsberg when he has Megan sitting in the wings.

            Have you forgotten the dust-up between them a few episodes ago? Don is not a happy camper right now.

            And there is no way Don is going outside the firm unless he absolutely has to.

          • Oh, hell no! MM is completely dead to me if Megan lopes in and takes over that job that Peggy has tirelessly worked at for so many years. Dead, I say!

          • Megan is a natural and has had many more than just one idea.

          • Comparing Ginsberg and Megan is apples and oranges. They weren’t even doing the same jobs. And unlike Joan with Roger, Megan is not just “sleeping with Don”; they are married. And you know, at one point Peggy had no credits and no experience either, but Don plucked her up and mentored her into what she’s become.

            I continue to be fatigued by the set of standards that Peggy and Joan get to exist under that Megan is for ~some~ reason denied access to.

        • Don was asking Megan for pitches the entire episode. And she consistently stonewalled him. I don’t think she wants to do anything with advertising at all.

          • I agree. She seemed offended (though I’m not always certain with Ms. Pare’s interpretations) with the idea of Jaguar being the mistress. Perhaps, she’s a bit sensative with regard to that.

        • If Peggy was traded for MEGAN I’ll be sick. Her scenes are a snooze feet to me. BTW shes awfully snappy with don like its absurd he wouldn’t want her in Boston for a month.
          Anyways…. I think that don and Peggy scene was the most painful break up.

          • It was actually three months that she would have been in Boston! And Megan acted shocked (well, as much as Pare is capable of acting shocked) that Don would have any objections to that!

  247. Also, while Don comes off as the ethical guy here, keep in mind that Don made it is personal quest to win the account. Winning it this way is less satisfying to him, which is likely a subtext.

    • you could say don’s speech last week really put a fire under joan!
      she gave it her all!

    • Oh, yes, I took note to that. Dons ego is HUGE

    • I also figure Don’s view of the situation would be different from the others because his own mother was a prostitute.

      • and also that he may/ may not have romantic feelings for Joanie… (Or am I completely jumping the shark with that interpretation?)

        • kate you are not jumping and no else is jumping. GOD I HATE THAT PHRASE!!!
          kate. I wish that your prediction comes true.

          • Oh good, I do think Don’s “interest” in Peggy personality wise is even more pronounced in his relationship with Joanie… with he added extra of sizzling chemistry. Neither of which is present with boring Megan!

            I read on the recap thread that someone felt Don’ looks towards Joan in Roger’s office indicated disappointment even borderline disgust … completelt disagree personally but would it be a barrier to a future relationship would be an intereting qu given his experience with prostitutes etc…

  248. There’s something I just understood: one reason Lane approached Joan with the idea of demanding a partnership is because he was afraid the idea of offering her 50,000 dollars as a finders fee was going to actually happen, and the partners said they could pay for it with their bonus money and that Lane should seek to extend their credit.

    But Lane NEEDS that bonus money, because he already spent it. And he can’t extend their credit, because they don’t know he has already done that. And he’s afraid to be found out for embezzling. So prompting Joan to ask for a partnership was a way of covering his tracks.

    • Yep.

    • Everyman for himself!

    • Oh yeah, Lane’s every move is about preserving that dream of a Christmas bonus. I thought Bert Cooper’s line was funny — something about “for the last time, there’ll be no Christmas bonus.”

    • Yes, AND he also simultaneously gets credit for looking out for her interests by telling her to ask for partnership (delayed gratification) instead of 50K up front (immediate gratification for Joan and immediate ruin for Lane — but of course he doesn’t tell Joan that little detail).

      • It makes it a little sad in light of that that Joan seemed to “forgive” Lane in that scene in Roger’s office by hugging him first, when it was only Don that made a stand for her. I REALLY am beginning to see Joanie and Don as a proper fit now. If only Megan could fall down the lift shaft etc. Ha!

    • Lane’s actions were truely craven. He seemed like a good guy for a long time

  249. For Roger Sterling to say, “This is dirty business.” and for Bert Cooper to say, “Let her know she can still say no” were clearly comments that were not rooted in moral decency but in enlightened self-interest.

  250. I think it was over between Don and Peggy when Don threw the money in her face in his office after she had saved an account.

  251. Joan’s Mom. The Other Woman.

  252. Why didn’t Joan introduce her mother to Don? Weird when he said goodbye to her and “her friend.”

  253. Another Pete Campbell handshake denied.

  254. Does anyone else see echo’s of Betty’s attempt at modeling and subsequent disappointment in Megan’s actions after she did not get the part?

    • The difference is that Don always knew that Betty was offered that gig as an enticement to get Don to leave S-C. Dunno if Betty knew, but she quickly rationalized it. Megan seems like she wants to do this while she’s still young. (as If Betty wasn’t young, but that’s modeling)

  255. If (as always) we assume that all the advertising pitches are just disguised versions of what the pitchers want personally, I think I just figured out where Ginsberg’s idea (“At last something beautiful you can really own”) came from: He wants Megan.

    • Maybe, though there was a woman playing Jaguar on a table at the time.

      • But he was ignoring her…he was looking toward Don’s office and I don’t think he was wondering when he would get his $15.

    • Yeah, I wondered about Ginsberg desiring Megan too, but too little to go on yet.

    • That’s a brilliant insight. And when Ginzo says to Don “I was just thinking about the asshole who’s gonna buy this car” — the guy who has a lot of beautiful things but somehow it’s never enough — he really could be talking about Don.

  256. Edited. Please be respectful of the comment policy. No insulting other posters. -MC

    • I’ve never gotten the vehemence of some re Megan. But I wouldn’t bet on EM being gone from MM. Hard to see MW wanting to drop the proto-feminist story.

    • EM is #2 in the credits. She may be at another company but she’s not gone from the show. No way, no how.

    • I haven’t seen anyone blaming Megan for that, but I’ll admit to having skimmed numerous posts.

      And yeah, said earlier, I can’t see Peggy leaving the show. She’ll be back. Hence, why I think the episode was not all powerful. The Joan stuff was dead-on in terms of how it played out. The Peggy stuff was poignant but also felt like a bit of a tease. Can’t see her sticking with a new firm for the remaining two years. Teddy Chaough? No way.

  257. Before anyone freaks out over Pegs; remember Don’s line to her in “STDHAS” that he would always be trying to hire her.

    Margaret Olson, like the candy, has become a talisman for Mr. Draper. That, and Peggy not backing down, explains Don’s expression and reaction.

  258. Watching a second time. Pete is still slug slime.

    • Actually, that’s a bit high on the food chain.

    • Pete really is a sleazeball, but it can’t be denied he saved the day with his amorality and utter lack of human decency. He’s the perfect business animal. When he was pitching the idea to Joan, his rationalizations sounded so logical and dispassionate that I had a flashback to that episode where he wanted to target black consumers because it made sense from a business standpoint. Everyone else was horrified, but Pete couldn’t see what the big deal was. Money is money.

      Joan will end up as a millionaire, and in a strange way she has Pete to thank.

      The way this episode ended tragically and left almost everybody involved looking a little guilty reminds me of “The Great Gatsby”

      I still think Don comes across as a bastard in this ep — somewhat akin to Tom Buchanan in Gatsby. There is some decency in what he does, but he also had selfish reasons — he wanted to win on the merits of the work alone.

      The real hero of the episode? Freddy Rumsen. Who, by the way, is the person who actually “discovered” Peggy’s talent — not Don.

      • Pete is going to be responsible for making them all rich. But he’ll be unhappy somehow, because he’ll never find his figurative Daisy. Like Gatsby, he’ll die as a result of some car crash. He’ll be as forgotten as the boats beating against the current as time recedes into the past, just like his hairline

        • I’m now convinced that if any major character dies, it will be Peter “no morals” Campbell.

        • Yes, but — Gatsby didn’t die in a car crash, he was murdered by the husband of the woman who was run over by his car when Daisy was driving it.

          • That was meant as a metaphor for Gatsby, and literally for Pete. Pete sucks at driving. Watch out on I-95 people. Kaboom.

      • Basket of Kisses! Funny, but I’ve heard that expression somewhere else.

      • Peggy and Freddy Rumsen were great together. It was a good connection to the past and how Peggy got to be where she was

  259. “The Other Woman” might simply be a play on how all the other women chose to deal with issues in their lives. Joan creates a path for herself based upon what she feels her skills are. Peggy chooses her path based upon what she feels her skills are. Megan chooses her path in the same light, the common denominator is Don in the back ground trying to guide and steer each woman on her path. In the end, Don owns none of the women.

  260. “What price would we pay, what behaviour would we forgive?”
    this is the most telling line for me

    • Peggy passed the test.

      Everyone else failed.

      (Except Ken… Ken who is wonderful). Megan sorta passed too but she did turn around — it goes with the territory.

  261. I often visit this site and enjoy reading the open thread after MM episodes. Tonight especially during Peggy and Joan’s stories I was reminded of several literary as well as art history references. At this moment I can’t even remember the expression on Christina Hendrick’s face, but in the last scene as she turned to watch Peggy leave there was something in her exquisite beauty and tragic circumstance that made me almost say out loud Joan is Lily Bart…of course MM is a different time and quite different circumstances. I certainly don’t believe Joan’s life will end so tragically. Joan’s dress was even reminiscent to me of John Singer Sargent’s “Madame X”. Joan’s black dress was perfect and could have been chosen for so many reasons.

    Thank all of you for your insightful and entertaining comments and posts!

    • Except Lily Bart didn’t actually do the guy, right? Died in poverty, but with morals intact?

  262. So does Don know he got to Joan after the fact? Anyone? Do all the partners know she did the deed?

    • Don likely does not know he was late. The partners all know it happened bc she is summoned into the partners’ meeting at the end.

    • Yeah, Don knows when they all came in for the partners meeting, his face says it all

      • Don knows she did it; he may not know she had already done it when he arrived at her place.

        • Yes Don knows, note he wanted to drink with Peggy to celebrate, not with Joanie and the others

  263. On rewatch,,, Joan has tears in her eyes when she unzips her dress for Mr. Toad. Flashback to post WWII mothers doing what they had to do with what they had to offer to get food for their kids.

    • Joan is not struggling to put food in her kids mouth (nice apartment she has!).

      Surely we can agree Joan has made a horribly wrong and stupid decision?

      • Actually no. Not for Joan.

        Was it horrible? YES.
        But it was actually what Pete said: ONE night. She (like Pete & Don) have had mistakes for free. It’s not like she was selling herself into a permanent relationship with the guy. And for Joan, she HAS used her assets to her advantage.

        Now it was 82 steps PAST disgusting but I think Joan looked at it as “do this disgusting thing and never have to rely on a man’s attention again.” I could definitely see it as not being about “the money” so much as financial independence from any man for forever.

        Her body. Her call.

        • Very true – but the thing I can’t get past is that everyone knows what she did. To do it and justify to yourself is one thing, but to know that everyone else knows and is probably going to judge you for it – that would be difficult. If it were me, I think I’d be haunted by it constantly when dealing with the Jaguar account. Maybe at this point she just doesn’t care.

        • Great comment. We’ll see how it works out.

          I think the calculus is not just moral – can her co-workers/partners take her seriously when they know what she is willing to do for her own gain (albeit in this instance, also for their gain)?

          As the world changes, I think rightly or wrongly, her coworkers are going to take a dim view of her. Her competence with accounts and resolving office conflict is her real skill – the partners have shown they value her skills in the bedroom far higher, diminishing her and her like.

          Joan’s acceptance of this fate is sad, but believable from a transactional viewpoint.

        • Joan is now free financially. If she can compartmentalize what she did to gain that freedom, she’ll be good. I don’t look at our Joanie any differently than before. Not one bit. Smart cookie, that kid.

      • Yeah I think somewhere upthread Joan’s salary was figured in today’s dollars. She’s not exactly struggling, even with a child. And if she had to do something degrading to take care of Kevin, why not just accept the money Roger is trying to give her? After all he is the real father… seems far less degrading, if it is just about the money.

        • I kept thinking that as well. Joan is dead set against taking money from Roger – but isn’t this much worse?

          • my take on why joan wouldn’t take money from roger but would sleep with the jaguar dealer is that roger is unpredictable and unreliable. it would be too easy for him to just stop giving money to his ex-mistress and illegitimate son, whereas with a contracted partnership and 5% stake in the company, there’s no worry that the money will stop showing up

      • You are right but I guess I mean most of do what we have to do to provide for our kids, maybe not that exactally, but work night shifts while going to grad school, or even in a 180 turn giving up a career to stay at home, because that is what has to be done?

      • Joan made a decision which was right for her due to her values and circumstances.

        No one should condemn Joan or Peggy for the decisions they made tonight.

        It is 1967. It’s called history. It was the way it was back then. Men ruled.

        • I’m not sure its a 1967 issue.

          Joan and Peggy contrast in that Joan, when faced with a choice, would put a price on her dignity, but Peggy would not. Joan will put up with being treated poorly; Peggy will not.

          They also contrast in that when Joan’s achievement in accounts and running the office go largely unrecognized, but she’s happy to live with “that’s the way it is”. But when Peggy’s achievements in the fundamentals of advertising also largely go unrecognized, she won’t let it stand.

          That part of the story is timeless.

          Even setting aside the moral dimension, Joan has made a poor decision. She’s squandered something.

          • On the other hand, as Harry said to Lakshmi in the the last episode,

            “You’ve already given it away.”

          • Weirdly enough, if Joan had met the guy and been attracted to him, no one would have thought a thing except maybe good for you girl, after Greg you deserve a little R&R. But because it was a business decision, not attraction, we are all grieved. I just hope we don’t hear Pete exploiting this for his own personal reward, or seeing Mr. Toad demanding more to keep the account.

          • Peggy put up with Abe treating her poorly by his saying they should move in together without any acknowledgment of how negatively that was viewed at the time, not just by Catholic mothers

        • AND just what will Joan do when, as a partner, she is required to make a capital contribution? Will Don pay for it, like he paid for Pete’s?

      • How could Joan’s decision really be right? This decision really was barely hers. All of her male superiors know she traded sex for status. It is glorified prostitution. Look at Joan in the scenes with herb. It’s horrible. Remember her face when Greg raped her… Haunting, as it was tonight. I feel like this was a defining moment for Joanie. And I can’t see he repercussions being all that positive.

      • Now the partners will expect her to do the same thing for other clients.

  264. So Don is so thoroughly disgusted at the thought of Joan being sold to secure the Jaguar account but he goes ahead and pitches the line “something beautiful you can finally own”. It’s swirling around in my head but I don’t seem able to put it into words yet. Something along the lines of purposefully pushing the behavior he is shunning but it sounds much more elegant bumping around in the noggin.

    • He’s a hypocrite IMO.

      • He did not know at the time of the pitch that Joan went ahead and he was the only one who tried to talk her out of it for Joan’s sake

        • Don was disgusted by the very idea of it, whether or not Joan went through with it – yet that is the idea he is using/promoting to sell Jaguar.

          • To blame Don for Joan’s decision is ridiculous.

            Blame the other four partners including Roger who voted 4-0.

  265. Look at how mature Peggy’s goodbye dress is.

  266. When did Roger get his own secretary? Just noticed that. And now that Joan is 5% partner, I wonder if that puts her in a better position to catch Lane

    • Caroline was his secretary before. After they lost Lucky Dtrike and Don married Megan, she was on both desks. When Don hired Dawn, she went back to Roger full-time.

  267. Any chance Peggy runs into Salvatore Romano at Teddyboy’s?

  268. “Pete Campbell” is trending worldwide (between #2 & #9).

    Matt Weiner — I’m holding you PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for Vincent Kartheiser’s safety. Those tweets are scary.

    • He may have to go into witness protection!

    • I need to correct, he has hit #4 worldwide, #2 is in the US, #4 in Canada.

    • As a man, I feel compelled to defend Pete here. You have to understand that men don’t view sex in the same way that women do. We just don’t. There is far less emotion and vulnerability in it for men. You can’t expect Pete to understand. For him, he knew it was an unseemly transaction, but not something that he would consider forbidden to even bring up. This was, of course, for a deal that would truly make SCDP.

      If I had to sleep with a woman I considered physically undesireable in order to bring in a big deal, I’d probably do it. I might think it gross, but it certainly wouldn’t make me feel used or damaged in the slightest. It’s just different for men.

      So with Pete and the other partners that voted ‘yay’, it may just be that they’re ignorant to the emotional implications of what they’re asking of Joan, not that they value the account over her well-being.

      • Yes, to Pete, a woman is just the pot that holds the soup.

      • But Pete should be mature enough and know Joanie well enough to know that she would not view “the transaction” the same way.

        The fact that he approached her the way he did speak volumes. He knew exactly what he was doing and how offended she would be.

        He’s a SHIT, no two ways around it!

      • “…men don’t view sex in the same way that women do…”

        I’m beyond words. There is no adequate way to even begin to reply to your statements.

        • I agree

        • Was I wrong? It would appear that I’m correct here.

          • You are correct in describing what you yourself would do, I assume. I really don’t think all men or even most men think that way. I would like to think we Mom’s have done a better job of teaching our sons about the totality of self, and maybe in the process developing men who care about people as individuals as well as integrating their sexual selves within their total selves.

          • Not trying to be a flamethrower here, but I have a question?
            How is it that till this day account guys of every stripe still try to induce signatures with enticements like strip clubs and prostitution?
            I worked on Wall street for years, and our firm had an account at every high end strip club in town. These men were the ‘very best’. Expensively educated, from good families, men of the world. Yet, NOT ONE deal was closed without female ‘companionship’ involved.
            Men don’t change. You’d like to think the better angels of our natures, our morality would come to the fore, and save us from ourselves.

          • Well Tilden, why not? You have the power to make your own decision , I mean someone can say no can’t they? Things began to change for women when they (collectively ) said not this, not anymore. Men can do the same.

          • Men saying no to women, in that aspect? It’s the closest manifestation of an offer he can’t refuse. I wish I had something better to say.

      • I am a man and Pete is disgusting.

        • Pete is a crumb sometimes, other times he’s cool. He’s more grasping evil than not.

          Face it; Pete is S5. Without him this year would’ve been practically nothing. His character, not Don, has driven the story forward, given it narrative momentum.
          Pete is a great, great character. Even though we hate him. Well, I don’t hate him.
          Tonight I did.

        • Roger is the most fun. Pete has been most essential.

      • Aah yes, “taking one for the team” as they say. Also known as ‘slumpbusting’.

  269. Semi Chellas has co-written my two fav episodes of the season – this one and Far Away Places. She might be my new Robin Veith.

  270. What an interesting episode! I haven’t commented in a while, but this one did offer a reminder that there are choices to be made at every turn of our lives. Stay for the money, or leave for self respect? The real answer can only be in your heart and head. Some of us on this stream have seen the good and bad in those choices, by ourselves and others, while others seem to concentrate on the old and boring cynicism of the stale bar jokes (with a wink).

    Time will tell who has chosen well, who can look back 40 years later with regrets, or serenity. Peggy will look back, no matter how her path leads, with serenity, that she made it about business AND she made it personal. There is no separation between the two. “There is no number. Only myself at the end of every day, I am responsible. I did my best.” Night all.

    • Yes, but there is also, I did what I had to do, not what I would have preferred, but I did it, and I survived.

      • That is a real life definition of a good choice. A bad choice is doing something expedient to get what you think you want, but is often temporary gratification. Surviving hard choices can pay dividends for life.

    • A good choice is one that you can live with…regardless of what other’s think.

      A bad choice is one that you cannot live with…regardless of what other’s think.

  271. […] question “Where are all the Mad Women?” and tonight’s episode of Mad Men, “The Other Woman” answered that. “Finally, someone beautiful, with talent and a caring heart, takes an […]

  272. Here is some information on the play Megan was auditioning for. It’s a little interesting.

    This is about the 1971 movie, but it talks about the history of the play it was based on, which ran for only 7 performances on Broadway in 1967.

    I only mention it because I know how hungry everyone is for more information about Megan. πŸ™‚


    • Can Megan be drafted into Vietnam? πŸ™‚ I know Canada participated. Or is she now a citizen because she married an American?
      When is she falling into that shaft?

  273. Just adding some thoughts. Don asked Midge to go to Paris with him in season one and when she says no he stuffs a check in her bra. She later basically prostitutes herself to Don to go him to buy her artwork to feed her heroine addiction.

    He also calls Betty a whore when he found out about Henry…and of course his birth mother was a whore. Joan whom he respected has now just whored herself.

    But for Peggy, there was no number. He thought she was the Buick, but she’s the Jaguar.

  274. You have to admit, it was sweet seeing Pete read his baby daughter a bedtime story πŸ˜€

    • You have to be kidding. PC is a slimeball extraordinaire.

    • Pete’s fall will be catastrophic, and followed by a spiral of lessor and lessor hack positions,until he is an old and bitter paunch. He is pushing away happiness, hand over fist, by listening to the cut lines that he sells to his future peers. Destined to be twice divorced, I see something in the used car industry for little Pete.

      • Don predicted as much in Season 1.

      • Because no one will like him.

      • Peter will have an epiphany and go all-out hippie in Season 7. He’ll grow his hair and stop shaving (like Vince Kartheiser) and he and Trudy will move to rural India. Then they’ll have a second child and name it Sunflower.

        Am I wrong?

    • Adorable scene. How cute is that baby?!!!

    • i found the reading of ‘goodnight moon’ to be showing that he doesn’t even have a conscience. he’s so narcissistic that he is able to move from being the sleazy little pimp in the afternoon to the picture of paternal pride in the evening. the reading of the book isn’t about tammy; it’s about how pete wants to see himself.

    • I’m amazed at how some of you guys can keep up with bit characters, I’ll need to go back and look for those guys

    • It was good to see a sweet side of Pete, makes the characters interesting to have contradictions. Kind of like when Betty occasionally acted motherly

    • It wasn’t sweet to me because I was already hating him. But he did have my favorite line of the episode when he complained to Trudy that in the suburbs there are no “goodnight noises” anywhere. Anyone who has read Goodnight Moon a thousand times to a child had to laugh at that one.

  275. I haven’t read through all comments, but Don is VERY selective about who he thinks ought not to be prostituting herself/himself. I was just reminded of how brutally he suggested to Sal that Sal ought to have given in to the advances of Lucky Strike heir (forget his name). Perhaps Don has “changed,” but maybe it’s really because he has always had a soft spot for Joan.

    Also, anyone wonder if Megan will succumb to the casting couch. She adamantly said, “I will succeed” or something like that and she looked very unhappy while saying that.

    Also, the Megan scenes really do suck the air out of the episodes. What the heck was she even doing with Don in the office? Really???

    • I haven’t figured out if Megan is having a hard time because that’s the way it is; or, is she having a hard time because she is not much of an actress (at least in roles other than Megan).

      • I hope we eventually get to see Megan act. I’d like to see her in a Pinter play.

    • Yeah, excellent point about Don being all for Sal whoring himself to a client.

      In terms of Megan and the casting couch, she already did that to snare Don. And remember how she so matter-of-factly got dressed afterward? Could have just been an isoloated moment — or merely meant to show her sexual liberation — but with MW, could have been a bit of foreshadowing too.

    • I agree. I realise it’s really just A Christmas Waltz and Guy Walks into an Advertising Agency that shows the chemistry/ respect between Don and Joan BUT I would say it’s obvious that Joan is someone he cares deeply about and would perhaps not have objected as strongly if it was someone else. Does anyone else feel this ep encourages the whole Joan/ Don relationship aspect or that his concern was friendly rather than romantic???

      • I believe that Don/Joan likely have fantasized about each other in the past. She has voiced things to that effect — sparingly referred to or hinted at through 5 seasons. We know only that Don was “scared to death” of Joan. It’s impossible to guess to what extent Don cares for Joan or whether it is that HE is particularly sensitive to a married (though he knows she has been served with divorce papers) woman with a small child prostituting herself. Too many echos of his own past.

        Let’s say he has a soft spot for Joan and loves Peggy, but neither is romantic.

      • It was out of respect. DD is attracted to Joanie, shit, what man isn’t? But, he will not try to go for the romantic angle because she prostituted herself. Mom was a prostitute. DD doesn’t want to be with someone like his mom, or someone who’d remind him of her, in any way.

    • I’m sure she will. She did with Don.

  276. Don’t forget also, that Matthew Weiner has often referred to Joan as a “courtesan.” Her powers rest in her beauty and sex appeal and how she has always known best how to use them. Though to most of us living today, her decision is unthinkable, it’s possible that we the viewers aren’t supposed to forget the entire context of the show and how Joan’s character has been developed. It’s a deal and it’s possible the “best” deal she’s been offered in exchange for her courtesan’s services.

    ^^Please don’t flame me. I don’t endorse this view; I’m just looking at it within the context of Mad Men.

    • you are right. I think in 2012 we have thrown this idea or concept away, and rightly so, so it just seems so wrong to most of us. However, Pamela Churchill something else Harrington did become the US ambassador to France on that ticket.

      • Pamela — married Churchill’s son, Leland Hayward, Averill Harriman (sp?) — supposedly had a few other famous lovers — all of whom greatly advanced her wealth, comfort and status. If Joan is in this category (and she herself has freely used her beauty and sexuality when it was her choice), then we are appalled only because the partners of SCDP except Don were complicit in bringing her the opportunity. THEY treated her like a prostitute.

        Had she “found” the opportunity herself and made the decision herself consequently, we would consider the decision her perogative, no matter how skeevvy.

        • My point exactally in some of my other posts. The heart of the matter is how Joan herself views this, and how it plays in her mind down the road.

    • Living as a single parent at the beginning of 1967 was a hell of a lot of difference to being one in 2012. Joan’s choices were limited. She was born in 1931 (previous episode). She was entering her 36th year. Lane was right: she secured her future. One day when Joan sees Kevin graduating from college she will know it was worth it.

  277. Maybe Peggy will get to work with Faye Miller

  278. I’m a little crushed by this episode. I’ve always seen Joan as the smartest one in the room. She was competence personified. I thought in today’s time she’d be a CEO. She has always (to me) seen men as the little boys that they are – behaving badly often times – and she’s always been one step ahead of every man she’s ever been with.

    She started to panic about her age and the attributes she had to offer – and while “catching” a husband who was a doctor – she wound up with a loser. Now she’s on her own.

    What kills me is that she’s always had the respect of Roger, Don, Cooper, and Lane. She won’t now. Just because all of the other partners have behaved badly (cheated etc.) over the years doesn’t give her license to behave the same way and still manage to move forward with impunity. Women aren’t offered that courtesy.

    Joan always had the moral high ground – her superiority was always fun to watch – and now that is forever gone. I’ve read all the comments above and I just don’t see it as anything less than a defection from her true character. Joan season 1 would not have done this.

    What kills me too – is that she was somehow affected by the vote. Whether it was 4-1 or 5-0 – why does that matter? Why do the other males votes count as to whether she should do this?

    • I don’t think that Joan has ever occupied a “moral” high ground. I’ve always interpreted her superiority as being based on her complete competency and command of the office and its official and non-official functions, which would include her dominance of the lewd attention paid by the men to women during that time. Dating back to S1, we’ve seen Joan sell herself short with men — starting with the disgusting man she brought back to her apartment to make a point to her lesbian roommate (who, herself, then submitted to the man she brought back to the apt) on the night when Roger coincidentally had his first heart attack. After Joan was called in to the office to prepare telegrams to the clients about Roger’s heart attack, Bert Cooper noticed the inappropriately older man who came in the office with her and made a comment to her to the effect of not wasting her youth on the aged. (paraphrasing) And there was the recent reveal about Joan having received countless bouquets of flowers “from other men” (said by Roger and thought by Don to have been from Aly Khan).

      • Yes, but she was discrete about it. The knowledge was hers to own, not anyone else’s . Her decision, her actions, her power. This was different, it was a group decision .

        • No argument from me there. Joan has a “reputation” whether we think she deserved it or not. That’s why when the men convened in Pete’s office, it was not a riot of outrage and disagreement, except from Don (the one man who might have a similar “reputation” I believe and who has a chaste flirtation with Joan). Remember, even though Lane has feelings for Joan, he once angrily acknowledged that all men were supposed to be helpless before her, except for him in that one instance, though not for long.

      • I think Don’s point about her being married and having a child makes a big difference. Joan was skulking around a bit as a single woman – I’ll give you that. She was with Roger when he was married, so I can see your point about the moral high ground. However, I still maintain that as a married woman and a mother – she won’t be forgiven as readily as the married men.

        This whole episode with Joan might have a different feel if she were still single and child-less.

    • Also, I don’t think that Joan was swayed by the vote. She asked about Roger’s reaction — because of their previous relationship and ongoing connection — but she didn’t visibly react. I think that Lane’s suggestion of the partnership cut swayed the balance of the transaction in her mind. Though, in my opinion, 5% of an still-tenuous partnership (Lane’s embezzlement) may not trump a $50,000 payoff (= $344,000 in 2012 dollars). Either way, in her mind, Joan made the deal herself.

      • That’s interesting. It’s obviously an important point because I was left to wonder what might have been had Don arrived at Joans “pre-date” instead of “post-date”.

        Like Joan – I too needed a shower after this episode… yuk.

      • It’s also interesting in the sense she asked about Roger’s, not Don or Lane’s reaction.

    • You forget Joan is now a partner. She will get respect that she never had before. Remember Joan knows where all the bodies are buried.

      • i don’t think she will get respect. she got the partnership, and she’ll get the money; i doubt the men will soon forget how she landed in her place. she’ll always be the partner who literally slept her way to the top.

        • I think Pete will be the first to remind her.

        • but whatever they may think morally/ socially … from a business POV she’s not a silent partner and has a vote. That makes her opinion potentially a decider, maybe even re what to do about Lane and his embezzlement etc.

          And it’s unlikely anyone would want to damage SCDP by having the way Joan got partnership broadcast (in a similar way to Pete’s hiding of Dick Whitman). However, esp Pete would be in character if he were to blackmail her at a later date (linking in with his comment about Madame Defarge sometime in S4 (?), Joan+Lane (and Lane’s future is looking less and less tenable) are sometimes a threat to Pete!)

  279. One of the carcasses she’ll find is her own. Our Joanie died a little last night. Maybe more than a little.
    Like Poe’s Tell Tale Heart, her body is buried under the floorboards, but her heart is still beating.
    Interesting to see how much, if at all, her reputation suffers for this.

    • Nahhh … Joanie always had the slutsy streak … she is who she is … a liberated women ahead of her time … able to run with the “Guys” … who is aware that her abundant sexuality my be used as a mens to an end … which of course is totally in accord with the “Madison Avenue” mojo. And by all accounts that’s the reason most of us admire her! And always will respect her … no matter what! Go Joan!

      • I agree, Rod Drapery. But this gets to the moral/personal ambiguity of the situation. Did Joan submit or take control? Will the men think less of her or will she be seen, even more than earlier, as a woman who is able to “run with the ‘Guys?’ A guy who “took one for the team,” a guy who did what s/he had to do to get ahead.” Is this admirable, despicable–or something in the murky middle ground? I think the ambiguity and dilemmas are the heart of this episode. Just who or what is “The Other Woman”–“other” as opposed to what?

        While I agree that Peggy’s choice was the more honorable, it pays to remember that she is quite a bit younger than Joan. Her path has been difficult, but she’s come of age in a world Joan is experiencing later in her life– so it’s harder for Joan to even recognize that she might have other options.

        • I find it difficult to distinguish between Joan’s and Peg’s behavoir … both sold out for bigger and better bucks. MAD WOMEN to the core!!

      • I like your phrase whether it was intentional or not –

        “mens to an end”

      • Your point assumes there is one measurement tool for “bad behavior” between men and women – and that is not the case, especially in 1966. She won’t be forgiven. She will be judged. She will pay a high price for this. The rest of them commit adultery and cavort with hookers and life goes on. This group of men will never look at her in the same way. Yes – they’ve all behaved badly – but her “sins” won’t be forgiven like theirs will.

        • Negative … Joan is now one of the guys … she took one for the team … she is beyond “sinning” in the hypercrtical world of MM and SCDP … Only dissenting Don will sit in judgement of Joan … but she has already forgiven him.

          • I don’t agree – but I hear you and you could be right – it will be interesting to see how this plays out…

  280. Let’s not forget- Joan carried on an affair with a married man, for years.

    High moral ground?

    Joan isn’t accepting money from Roger. Despite her telling her mom to go ahead and call another refrigerator repairman, “we can afford it” (or words to that effect)…Joan has 3 mouths to feed. I doubt her Traffic manager title pays a lot, and we know from last season the title didn’t include a raise. Whether that changed or not isn’t clear.

    I think her decision was based on her realization that, repugnant as her “job assignment” was, Joan was earning it herself, with, what she percieves, are her best and true *talents* (though we know better). She is above all a pragmatist, as we witnessed with her deciding to end her dead-end marriage to Greg (and many, many women during this era would have definitely stayed with him).

    I think these elements of her personality were very much in synch with Joan’s character, as has been revealed.

    • Peg where you been? Miss seeing your posts.

    • I think you’re right about that. Pete was right — it was Joan’s idea (with some help from Lane, who was really helping himself). She got a good deal. She had to f**k one ugly guy and now she’s a voting partner with a 5% stake in a multimillion dollar business. I’ve f**ked plenty of ugly women for nothing. I have a feeling Joan’s mother would 100% approve of this deal, and it’s only a matter of time before she finds out.

  281. At the end, I was struck at how Don was seated and Peggy was standing when her notice was given. Don got defensive and snotty, but then realized she had the upper hand. I like her power here.

    And I had to admit, I got a little verklempt at the kiss of the hand.

    (and is anyone other than me having difficulty with AMC’s site? wanted to watch the video recap, as I always do, only AFTER visiting here!)

    Semper fi, folks.

  282. Lastly. I have never seen the passion on this blog that was inspired by last night’s episode. Anger, disillusionment, cursing, hurt, humor, comments deleted everywhere!! Man, oh man. Unbelieveably great. Some of us feel so protective of these characters. Especially when of our girls’ virtue is seemingly compromised. Sex sells? It definitely pokes at the rawest nerves.
    We have to thank the Sistahs for this forum. Just glorious.

  283. Instantly one of the 3 or 4 most important episodes in the show’s history. My recap:

    • Great recap, Tilden. Great insights about Peggy and Freddy. Like you, I have always loved seeing their relationship.

  284. I watched the behind the scenes video with Janie Bryant and she pointed out that the coat Joan wore to the Jaguar guys apartment was the one that Roger bought her in 1955. A lot of time has passed

  285. Now that Megan and Peggy are gone (which he doesnt understand that he had a hand in) and he knows the partners are the kind of ppl who allowed the Joan transaction to happen and he could not stomach celebrating Jaguar because of it, do you think Don is thinking of exiting as well? Does he have so much disdain for the partners coupled with him missing Megan and will miss Peg that he would leave? Prior to the partner vote, he left the room thinking the issue had to be over but it was not. I am not much for the crystal ball stuff. Just trying to think where his head is at now. How can he possibly go into the office that has his name on the door and feel good about it?

    • I have been reading that some think that this may not be a one-time thing for Joan. That maybe Joan might be expecting to “close” future deals. If that is the case than I wonder even more about what Don’s mindset is. Again, how can he, as the one who tried to talk Joan out of it and the one who is missing Megan and Peg and the one who must be carrying some disdain for the partners right now, walk into the office and feel good about it? Just like Peg, he has to be thinking about other options.

  286. Peggy will be back (in the show; I pray not SCDP). We have yet to see her in the red costume she wears in all the AMC “Inside” videos.

  287. I just went back and REwatched all the parts of ‘The Other Woman’ that related to Joan’s story. Up to this point, I hadn’t really felt the desire to view many episodes of season 5 more than once (unlike seasons 1-4). They’re still sitting on my DVR list.

    But THIS one? Wow! Compelling! It’s Godfather-like in its writing, editing and acting (accompanied by the usual beautiful production values). A masterpiece! You just can’t help but marvel. Joan’s sad night of shame was the TV equivalent of the christening scene (as others have noted). Downright operatic! Again, wow! Does an individual episode win you an Emmy or is it the season taken as a whole?

    Pete especially is running on all cylinders, (maybe unlike the Jaguar XKE back then?). MW and Kartheiser have created a perfect personification of manipulation and venal ambition. Pete uses exaggeration along with knowledge of other people’s weaknesses completely to his advantage. We see him exaggerate Herb Rennet’s words and actions to his partners using just the right tone. Pete never accompanied Rennet to his cab, and he knows that Rennet is only one vote. That’s irrelevant. It wasn’t an absolute quid pro quo – rather a less than subtle threat from ONE decision maker. Who knows whether Rennet would have prevailed? Personally, I found the creative work and Don’s presentation on Jaguar to be among SCDP’s best work – exactly right for the car men. In addition, Joan doesn’t find the proposal ‘amusing’. She’s offended and repelled. So what? More fodder for Pete’s devious plan.

    Pete’s use of everyone’s weaknesses against them to get what he wants is an impressive skill slowly honed over his years with Sterling Cooper (and Draper Pryce). In season 1, he was clumsy when he tried to blackmail Don. Now he knows Don is impatient, egotistical and so lacking in meaningful people knowledge that he fails to register how Joan will not be saved by his dramatic exit. YES! One for Pete! (And btw, Peggy doesn’t just need to get away from Don, she also needs to shed Pete, the slimiest part of her past. She’ll feel cleaner on a day to day basis.)

    When Roger asks whether Joan is willing to go along with the plan, Pete takes into account their previous relationship (you KNOW Pete has got to know about Joan and Roger) and promotes the devaluing of Joan in Roger’s eyes, allowing him to sell her out more easily. Roger’s self-image as the lady’s man takes a hit if she’s willing to sell herself so cheaply. His recent rejection by Joan makes this an easier win for Pete as well although Pete doesn’t know anything about it. He’s just got Roger’s number.

    When Bert says that a car account is what shows that you’ve arrived as an agency, Pete gets his weakness. Bert is more than hungry (like Pete) to make SCDP work since it would be the icing on the cake of his career, and of course it would enrich him. He gave up the golden (chi-ching!) opportunity to retire in ease, and he also has a long history of amorality (Ayn Rand, Tricky Dick). Now he needs to prove he made the right move. Advantage, Pete.

    And poor Lane – his feelings of inferiority and need to rise above his junior status are obvious to a skilled people watcher. Even though Pete doesn’t know about the reasons for Lane’s recent desperation, he can smell it. Another brick in Pete’s victory house.

    And finally, that little smile of satisfaction when Pete leaves Joan’s office shows how easy it was for him to sting her. Her general condition as a woman, her new motherhood and her age (in 60’s terms) make her an easy target for his wheedling. He knows she has always used her sexuality to obtain what she wants and hasn’t had many qualms about using it that way. These weaknesses rain this little tragedy down on her now.

    All of this makes Pete HAPPY, as Don would say. His only regret might be that Joan’s partnership will give her some power now and perhaps he recognizes or will recognize that she could become a player, too. I don’t know about that part, but let’s hope so. It’s almost a TOTAL victory for him otherwise, although Don could ruin it for him later. That remains to be seen.

    Can’t wait to go back and reevaluate Peggy’s part in this episode.

    • Yeah, completely agree with that character study of Pete. He definitely has become FAR better at reading people, but I hope MW was foreshadowing his downfall way back in S1 with Don’s view of him.

      Also, if Joan is a junior partner she will definitely have more power that she did. It has been suggested that Pete felt slightly threatened by the Lane+Joan finance team as it is… so hopefully he lives to regret pimping out “Madame Defarge” in such a reprehensible manner. Especially regardinghow much more likely it is Lane will be leaving, which given the way the writers have highlighted Joan’s abilities over the past couple of seasons and her now partnership make her the obvious choice for new CFO. Or maybe that’s just wishful thinking…

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