Open Thread for All: The Beautiful Girls

 Posted by on September 19, 2010 at 8:00 pm  Season 4
Sep 192010

No West/East threads this week, so West Coasters, beware! This thread is open season for discussion of anything after it has aired in Eastern Time.

Open threads appears every Sunday that a new episode is aired, starting at 8pm Eastern. Before jumping in, please read our comment and spoiler policies.

Anything that has already aired on the screen you’re watching on is welcome for discussion and not a spoiler.


  484 Responses to “Open Thread for All: The Beautiful Girls”

  1. Yea!! I love Sundays!

  2. Saw The Town yesterday — sooooo good. I had trouble knowing who (whom?) to root for though, my love for Affleck and Hamm nearly tore me asunder.

  3. Duh-nah Draper mADDICT checking in-
    “Hello My name is Duh-nah Draper and I’m a mADDICT.”

  4. Me too – it was fantastic. Who knew Ben Affleck was such a talented director, really? I mean, I can definitely live without him on screen – he’s a modest talent at best in front of the camera – but he really knows his stuff when it comes to directing.

    Jon Hamm is a hugely talented actor. The guy inhabits roles. He was perfect in The Town.

    BTW, anyone watching the Mannings – Eli vs. Peyton – tonight? Giants and Colts, good Sunday night match up.

  5. Greg,

    You should rent Gone Baby Gone — also directed by Affleck, starring this time his brother, and also set in Boston. The novel was by Dennis Lehane, the guy who wrote Mystic River and Shutter Island.

  6. How much time, Karl?

  7. Getting ready to cross the Rubicon.

    Getting my feet wet, so to speak.


  8. Tonight’s Rubicon is directed by Alan Taylor


  9. We saw The Town today. ALL the acting in it was fabulous. I highly recommend this movie. Affleck’s acting and directing was wonderful and Jon Hamm was great in his role, his look is perfect for the big screen. *swoon*

  10. I’m watching Rubicon and I think the brunette artist neighbor is Dr. Faye Miller w/out her blond wig and NY accent.

    Anyone else think so? I can’t find a guest starring cast list.

  11. The neighbor looks to be Natalie Gold.

  12. Also, T-41 ๐Ÿ˜‰

  13. John Hamm Mercedes commercial just now on NBC

  14. A recent piece (Details, iirc) noted that Hamm has upgraded to a really nice M-B these days.

  15. # 7 Glass Darkly:

    I have seen Gone Baby Gone — great film. I wasn’t ready to give Affleck kudos until I saw a second effort, and with The Town, he’s officially awesome.

  16. 13 – Natalie Gold is the new girl on their team: Julia.

    Still can’t find a character listing for the neighbor AND it isn’t on Cara Buono’s imdb entry… I’m still pretty convinced it’s her. I’m an artist and have a very strong talent for recognizing people in costume or seeing similarities in relatives from being trained to see for drawing.

  17. kelly,

    You’re right about Julia, but I really don’t think the artist is Cara Buono.

    She kinda reminded me of Annie Parisse, and coincidentally, she has a Rubicon credit.

  18. Yea, my cable came back last night! (A car w/ 2 teenagers hit a cable pole yesterday morning–Thank God no one was hurt or killed! But I still won’t watch this til the kids are in school tomorrow, I’m on school time and need my sleep! (and i can never sleep after watching MM, especially this season) Enjoy it!

  19. Anyone watching Boardwalk Empire?

  20. That’s her! Thanks Karl – She has a very strong resemblance to Cara. That was driving me crazy!

  21. Kelly,

    You’re welcome. Apparently, I have seen Definitely, Maybe more times than a dude cares to admit.


  22. How much time, Karl?!?

  23. And here…we… go.

  24. Let’s rock and roll. ๐Ÿ™‚

  25. And away we go….

    No Kinsey this week

  26. The back of Hamm’s head!

  27. Damn, they moved fast!

  28. Faye!

  29. WHAT???? not even 90 seconds into the episode?????

  30. What is Dr. Faye going to tell her fake husband?

  31. Hehe, Mr. Bond. ๐Ÿ™‚

  32. I love that they broke the lamp

  33. I don’t have access to the show tonight so you’re my eyes and ears, Basketcases!

  34. We saw Vietnam coming a million miles away


  36. I hate Stan Rizzo.

  37. Miss Blankenship — Queen of Perversions — talking S & M.

  38. He *does* look like Jughead–all he needs is the hat.

  39. Stay classy, Miss Blankenship…

  40. Ha Stan sings part of Downtown and then we are in the bar and it is in the background!

  41. “I Know A Place” in the background! Loving the mid-60s tunes!

  42. And “Jughead” was humming “Downtown.”

  43. Joanie in Glasses.


  44. Phooey on the hipster glasses, Joan….

  45. I only get pizza delivered. Lucky Joan!

  46. Oddly penetrating insights there.

  47. Peggy’s really good at her job. Just really, really good.

  48. #47 would those be hipster glasses then, or just glasses?

  49. Abe turning out to be less progressive than advertised.

  50. Wow, I did not expect Peggy to get so fired up.

  51. Oh, Abe. You blew it.

  52. It’s pretty obvious Peggy will be in the front of the pack when the woman’s lib movement starts.

  53. You know it was Roger who ordered the massage and spa treatments for Joanie. Which she SO DESERVES!

  54. Go Peggy…

  55. I dug Joan’s glasses…and where can I find a bar like that these days? Loved hearing “I Know a Place” in the background.

    Way to go, Peggy, on the feminist front!

  56. I’m taking everything interesting with me

  57. I think Abe probably could have stood to be a touch more diplomatic there.

  58. Abe’s only progressive if you’re an oppressed minority he recognizes – blacks, yes; women, no.

  59. I’m so glad that Abe mentioned Civil Rights. It really is summer of 1965.

  60. I heart Joan and Roger…

  61. There’s Joan’s red dress again… it always means something.

  62. …and Don is a competitive fly fisherman.

  63. fly fisherman??? Hilarious!

  64. Another series bird reference with the crossword: emu… flightless bird. Not sure where that one’s going.

  65. Sally so gutsy!!

  66. I like Sallys’ dress, in an adult size.

  67. Men never know what’s going on.

  68. Oh here it comes…

  69. Good one Betty!!!

  70. Daddy and daughter bonding time. Yaay!

  71. It’s Take Your Children To Work Day! Sorta…

  72. Peggy’s looking like Patty Duke..

  73. Don is always so awkward with his own kids. This will be good for him.

  74. Betty didn’t really seem to care… I would have been freaking out if that was my child..

  75. # Laura #74

    And did you notice that Joan was watching The Patty Duke Show?

  76. I’m loving the pace of this one.

  77. …and just when Don was finally getting a happenin’ (non-pro) sex life again!

  78. Well, Sally is probably going to put a crimp in Don’s funtime with Dr. Faye. Don won’t like that.

  79. #51 Karl. Very typical. Men ran all the protest movements. Girlfriends and other “girls” were allowed to do the administrative tasks – typing, posting flyers etc. – but not to speak or organize.

  80. Faye left the apartment last–I hope she cleaned up.

  81. #77– geez, I didn’t notice that!

  82. My dad took my brother and me to work one day each summer. We have great memories of those visits.

  83. Holy shit. She’s dead!

  84. Ms. Blankanship is Dead!

  85. HOLY CRAP!!!

  86. JESUS! Blankenship!

  87. Poor Sally…..always yelled at by adults. And Don’s not having much luck with secretaries this season…

  88. Miss Blankenship.

    At least we know she lived it up along the way.

  89. Wow. Joan is versitile

  90. Wow. Who will become Don’s new girl? Is this how he and Megan supposedly hook up?

  91. Then, in the background…

  92. hahah no curtains in the conference room. And Faye isn’t wearing black and white…

  93. OH GOD! This is horrific…

  94. My mother made that!

  95. I want to laugh but it’s so bad…

  96. Hilarious!!!

  97. Faye, not good with the kids…

  98. “I would have my secretary do it, but she’s dead.”

    The quotes just keep rolling…

  99. A really bad day at the office.

  100. Faye’s even worse with kids than Don.

  101. Frank E. Campbell Funeral Home
    Madison Avenue and 81st Street

  102. …and almost immediately, the death jokes.

  103. I wonder if Roger is paying for Mrs. B’s arrangements.

  104. Campbell’s Funeral Home. Lots of famous funerals — Valentino, Judy Garland.

  105. Think Joanie knows about Roger and Miss Blankenship?

  106. Favorite line… she died like she lived, surrounded by those she answered the phone for….

  107. And to think, in another 20 years she will be the Karate Kid’s mom

  108. Yeah! Sally’s wearing Salt Water Sandals!

  109. I thought it was Bert and Miss Blankenship.

  110. I like how Megan was wearing her gloves when she removed the blotter.

  111. Bunny,

    It was Roger and Blankenship. She was Bert’s secretary at the time.

  112. Did you all know Mrs. Blakenship played the mom in The Karate Kid?

  113. #112 it was Roger

  114. I feel terrible, but I laughed my ass off when Blankenship died! Why did they get Pete, of all the men in the office to help move the body?!?!?!

  115. I’ll miss Ida…..

  116. Odds on Megan moving to Don’s desk?

  117. I have dinner plans=I don’t want any part of you and your troubled child

  118. #110-Jules

    Lol. Love it.

  119. The Ms. Blakenship bit reminded me of the Fawlty Towers episode where Basil is trying to get rid of the dead guest with no other guests noticing. At least Joan had better help than Manuel!

  120. Sally is learning to say just the right things to get her parents off her back.

  121. The scene when they’re rolling out Ms B past the conference room — I laughed so hard I had to use my inhaler. Brilliant.

  122. #120 – Right on!!

  123. But Bert knows about her family…

  124. Brenda,

    In one of the Mad News items (the 9/11 edition, iirc) we linked a piece where Randee Heller was still in touch with Ralph Macchio.

  125. Considering Miss B’s reputation (at least according to Roger) it would not be hard to believe she & Bert may have had a thing too. Pre-neutering, that is. Might explain why Bert wasn’t happy with Roger doing the nasty with her.

  126. Maybe Joan will find out about “the Queen of Perversions” if she has dinner with Roger and he drinks too much (as usual).

  127. #119 Karl, I’d say pretty high. Odds on Megan and Don hooking up: also pretty high. Remember Dr. Faye said he’d be married in a year.

  128. Joan and Roger = the romance in Mad Men.

  129. Mrs. Blankenship is about to become a trending topic on Twitter.

  130. Is Don even going to ask Sally why she “needed” to see him??

  131. WOW. Roger did a great job handling that.

  132. Oh Joanie and Roger…… It’s meant to be

  133. I love a good passion inducing mugging.


  135. When the wedding ring comes off, the wedding ring comes off.

  136. Cut that stuff out already. You’re married. Like, to other people.

  137. Oh Sally. That face says it all.

  138. BRING IT!!!!!

  139. having Sally in Dons Apt is like having a little flower visiting sitting on his couch.

  140. Poor baby.

  141. Don is going to write in his diary again.

  142. Phew! I thought for a moment that we were going to have some voiceover narration….

  143. Or not…. lol

  144. LOL! Oh Sally, you’re an awesome kid.

  145. #144 Jilley, won’t that make a great SNL skit come Halloween?

  146. rum ‘n pancakes — breakfast of champions!

  147. Rum
    “Is it bad?”
    “Not really”

  148. Rum on breakfast pancakes–she is her dad’s daughter! ๐Ÿ™‚ and I can see Betty and Carla’s influence….

  149. He doesn’t have an office?

  150. Bert, that was beautiful.

  151. Why is Roger apologizing to Joan? She made the first move and was more than willing.

  152. Fantastic Joanie dress!

  153. Ugh… Roger, stop. It’s not a good idea. I can think of a million reasons why you should NOT pursue this avenue with Joan.

  154. Well, OK, who takes over on Don’s desk now? Does Allison reappear?

  155. #152 What is up with that? Anyone?

  156. @148 Brenda That would be funny to spoof on SNL.

  157. I love Don and Sally’s father-daughter relationship…nice to see it so much in this episode.

  158. Wow, Kiernan does a good job emulating Betty’s vocal pattern.

  159. #138 very good point

  160. All I can say is: YES! It feels like I’ve been waiting for *ages* for something to happen between Roger and Joan again!


  161. Let me get this straight. Joan says to Roger, “I’m married & so are you.” Wasn’t he married all the time they were having their affair? The fact that he got divorced & married a secretary who wasn’t Joan suddenly makes a difference to her?

  162. One of the writers — Kater Gordon, iirc — once commented about how tough it was to have the characters we love do the wrong thing. But it’s part of the job. Drama = conflict.

  163. Oh my goodness, I am so in love with this show.

    I’ve got nothing constructive to add but I can’t believe how great it’s been these past few weeks.

  164. Maybe while they’re at the CP Zoo Sally will get a chance to speak. And finally they’re doing something NYC ish. Not just watchinhg TV. You can do that in Peoria.

  165. Very satisfying episode

  166. @157 Turtle Good question. Allison or Megan?

  167. French toast with rum,good job Sally Draper.

  168. Now we have a French film — The ad man, his wife, his ex-wife and his mistress. If he keels over, they can take turns at his side in the hospital. If he drops dead, imagine the funeral…

  169. Steve D (164),

    I think Joan cares more about the fact that she’s married. And even viz Roger, Joan once commented that she thought Roger was unhappy with Mona, not with the idea of marriage.

  170. Sally’s growing up – and what a darling actress.

  171. Yvette Mimieux!!!! love it

  172. Which brings up the question: did Mona know about Joan?

  173. Uh oh – here it comes… Sally’s BLOW-OUT

  174. Where did Sally get the Nancy Drew book?

  175. Sally’s turning into a Betty clone

  176. OMG—Sally really IS little Betty

  177. Don what a flipping cop out!!!!!!

  178. that poor kid. i want to cry

  179. OHHH… that was deliciously awesome that look all those women gave Betty.

  180. Don surrounded by women.

  181. Whoa, all the women in Don’s life in one shot….

  182. Sally: I’m diagnosing incipient attachment disorder

  183. yep. It’s Megan time.

  184. Interesting shot, the pack of women sort of facing down Betty…

  185. Faye’s done

  186. Dr. Faye is angry and resentful. Not good with children. Not ever going to be Mrs. Draper. Ever.

  187. Sally went to Megan…

  188. I keep expecting to see Peggy’s head over the wall

  189. Ahh, the end of a normal work day….

  190. Don and all of his beautiful girls. nice eposide spotlighting all the women, while bringing the womens right movement into light

  191. Peggy back with the Madonna hat

  192. What a beautiful shot at the end – Joan Peggy and Faye all in the elevator!

  193. 3 women three choices

  194. And next week’s episode looks like the bombshell we’ve all been waiting for…

  195. Crap. This means the weekend is over! hhhhhhhhh…

  196. A beautifully elegaic ending–I’m sure going to miss Miss Blankenship.

  197. Megan is going to be the one. The way they focused on her, and the way Sally went to her. He is going to go from all those blonds to the tall brunette.

  198. #197, yes, and where is Joan going on the train?

  199. Maybe so.

  200. That was an exceptionally thick and rich episode, lots of themes layered in. This is going to be a busy week here!

  201. I’m watching the encore, and during the opening credits, the falling man falls through a shot glass filled with liqueur (it’s right before the kicking lady). I don’t remember the liqueur being animated and moving while the man falls through the liquid. Was it always like that?

  202. Great pacing and a very good episode. Several cataclysmic events: Blankenship goes to that great advertising firm in the sky, Don & Dr. Faye make the double-backed monster, & Rogers and Joan possibly rekindle things. It seems as if the story arcs are getting tighter and more juicy (and should be more like this if the coming attractions for next week are as intense as they seems). Just where is MM headed?

  203. Wow, did this show resonate with me, in so many ways.

    I loved the triumverate of the 3 Wise Women, who so empathized with poor, distraught Sally…(and Megan too!).

    Don has never been more human, and neither has this show.

    Loved Faye’s vulnerability and ambivalence, about her career choice vs. being a mom. She’s her own worst judge…women reading this, let’s remember to be kind to ourselves for our choices.

    Betty’s “I was worried about you” hung in the air, like meaningless vapor.

    So weird it took a mugging to get Joan and Roger back together. But I’m glad, even though I don’t believe in infidelity.

    I loved what Burt said, about Mrs. Blankenship, God rest her soul. I thought I was watching a Marx Bros. movie for a minute…I love when Weiner and Co. make the dialogue incongruous or ironic, depending on what the characters are doing at the time the lines are being spoken.

    Yet ANOTHER fantastic, terrific episode!!

  204. Saddest thing is Sally saying things will not be alright.

  205. Ms. Blankenship takes the permanent siesta

  206. When Sally ran down the hall and fell… that was excruciating. All the women standing around, knowing that something is wrong at home for Don’s daughter — but frozen in place. I didn’t feel it was unreasonable that Sally would reject Faye as someone who might turn into yet another step-parent. She’s obviously having a hard enough time with Mr and Mrs Francis. To have a new Mrs Draper would completely suck. Very normal.

    I didn’t like when Faye turned it into “it’s all about me.” All about her feelings about kids/not having kids. What about Sally? Not a word about Sally or what’s going on at home. Just Me Me Me and What About Us (her and Don).

    Jeez, talk about a bad day at the office.

    #164 Steve, Joan wasn’t married, but she gets it now that you don’t mess around on your spouse. Not saying it wasn’t a flaw on her part that she chose to overlook his cheating on Mona, but people do mature.

  207. Megan is gorgeous, and she’s a good physical match for Don. It remains to be seen whether he will trust her enough to reveal that he’s really Dick Whitman. He can’t camouflage that from the second Mrs. Draper.

    This is starting to seem a little Rebecca-ish, no?

  208. Did ya’ll hear Don say, to Ken, “Don’t do that!” when he made fun of the stuttering client? Peggy II!

  209. Last words from Blankenship to Don, “Are you going to the toilet?”

  210. This episode was kind of scary and funny at the same time.
    I was even afraid of the pizza delivery guy when Don answered the door. And I thought something bad was going to happen to Sally.
    Not to mention the mugging – I thought Roger was going to be shot.
    Unsettling. Guess I’m paranoid. It’s overdue that something really bad happens to a main character.

  211. anyone notice the music from “the fog” at the end?

  212. Betty was so “worried” about Sally she told Don she’d get Sally 30 hours later, yet never spoke to Sally or Don about her running away (as far we saw).

    Sally is quite the schizo kid: acting all grown up w/ Don, making breakfast. Then she throws a huge tantrum when she’s supposed to go back with Betty.

  213. Peggy is being naive thinking that a “negro” could fight their way in…

  214. OMG Roger and Joan!!! ๐Ÿ˜€ I knew they had to get together again, at least once! Love them

  215. avwh,

    As Matt Weiner says over at AMC now, this ep was all about women and their roles being defined by men. Sally’s behavior here is all about experimenting with different roles women play.

  216. Yeah, Don’s all “don’t make fun of the stuttering guy,” but he doesn’t extend his decency to business. Glad that the show has finally started to address the issue of civil rights in the workplace and in the marketplace.

    And although Peggy is scared to death that the guy’s political diatribe will hurt her career, we see from what she said in the creative meeting about Harry Belafonte that she got the message and she cares about it.

    Peggy’s the most modern person in that office. She’s the only one who gets the feminist problems and won’t lay down and take it. The connection between feminism and racism — that’s big stuff.

    Poor Joanie. I assume she’s going to visit Greg at Basic via train (next week’s preview).

  217. I think Joan is gonna get pregnant now and not know whose it is. What dya bet?

  218. I didn’t like the fact that an episode that focused on civil rights also had a mugging by a black man. That pissed me off. Anyone else feel that way?

  219. Early in the episode with Roger on the phone with, I suppose, his literary agent, he complains that “they” like Ogilivie’s book better than his. David Ogilivie was a pioneer in the advertising business & was in his hay day in the ’60s. Often called “the father of modern advertising.” Roger can’t compete.

  220. AC,

    There were a few African-American ad men at the time, and not just in African-American firms. We had a story about it in mad News within the last few weeks.

    Also, Roger mentioned one of the bigger firms hiring its first African-American in “Six Month Leave,” iirc.

  221. #221 – I totally agree. It felt very hypocritical.

  222. I’m not sure where they’re going with Megan, but something about her makes it hard for me to believe she’s be the future Mrs. Draper. (If anything, Faye’s resentment may have pushed her to make the comment she did about “you’ll be married in a year.” She’s clearly had some bad experiences, she’s cynical.)

    And besides, Don is learning about the dangers of mixing work and…that.

    I’m wondering if her ability to be good/amazing/striking is getting at the fact that she may be the “new” Joan. She’s thin with dark hair, representing the the more Hepburnesque standard of beauty (granted, way taller but still). She’s jumped in to help avert a number of disasters. As Joan ages into becoming a future Ida (God I hope not), Megan may be becoming the new “go to” girl….

  223. The scene where Sally and Don have breakfast reminded me of the scene from the episode where Gene was born. Don made scrambled eggs for Sally, and explained that things can work out even when you don’t get what you want (e.g. Don wanted/expected a boy when Sally was born, but he’s not disappointed that he has a girl).

    I’m still laughing that she used rum instead of maple syrup. And that Don liked it. It just shows that unexpected events can be good.

  224. Old episode

    Roger tells Don that BBDO has a “negro” copywrighter

  225. BTW, “Blankenship” is currently a trending topic on Twitter.

  226. Thanks Karl, I will check it out!

  227. Don qas as instantly and instinctually offended by Ken’s joke as Ken and the boys are to make it. He didn’t handle Sally all that well, but Don has possibilities.

    The last scene:either Megan has a backstory, or she is in love with Draper already.

  228. @ 53 Melville-He did didn’t? And I had such high hopes for the man too.

    @67 AC-I totally called that.

    @117 Jackie D-I thought it was funny too, but I was worried that made me a horrible person.

    @149 Laura-I don’t drink, but that did sound good.

    @196 Bunny Watson-I couldn’t have put it better myself.

    I thought this was a great episode. Joyce is a good friend. She helped Abe get together with Peggy, which was what she thought both wanted. It didn’t work out, but that’s not really Joyce’s fault, and it’s clear from the end, Peggy doesn’t blame Joyce for what happened

    Sally looked very pleased on the couch. She was getting exactly what she wanted. I’m pretty sure she was lying to Don about not running away.

    Ken may just do an office pool about what happens to Don’s new secretary.

    I really liked Ken’s line about there being no difference between Boston and the South.

  229. Ha! from Twitter:

    Ida Blankenship, you were the rum on my French toast

  230. Arragh. Betty just infuriates me.

  231. #232 — hahahahaha! RIP Ida

  232. Not related to the show, but wish me luck, I am going to turn in my notice tomorrow. Excited and nervous.

  233. Not an important point unless you care about fashion, but I believe Sally was wearing an early Lilly Pulitzer dress. The Lilly girls’ clothes were called Minnies, after Lilly’s daughter. The shape is a classic Lilly shift dress shape.

  234. even better the second time!!

  235. @ 215 avwh-Sally wanted to be with her father, she didn’t want to be at home. She tried to do something nice with breakfast. Maybe she thought it would help him change his mind about letting her stay.

  236. A Negro mugger plays into the stereotype, but then again Negro muggers existed for a reason. One doesn’t have to be a social worker to indict the entire suburban middleclass flight process, a process that will nearly bankrupt NYC in the next decade. Carla sure as hell works as hard as she does so *her* kids don’t live in the city.

    And didn’t anyone notice that Mrs. Blankenship died right in front of Faye, Don and Ken? Sure, the rest of it was played for comedy, but that she could die right there?

  237. I’m watching the encore. I think it’s interesting that when Peggy found Miss B. she didn’t immediately go to Joan. I would have.

  238. Another tableau of the women in Don’s life, with Miss Blankenship.

    Joan, “Megan, get a man, and we’ll need a blanket. There’s an afghan on XXX’s (dang I forget names) couch.

  239. Bunny,

    Best wishes tomorrow.

  240. Megan is just the receptionist? I will need to think about why the hug, or a hug from Megan, worked for Sally.

    Joyce really likes Abe. Abe fail, but he was trying.

    Peggy is seriously lacking in social skills, in the ability and willingness to negotiate space and sharing. Seriously lacking.

  241. @ Anne #237: I think you are right on the Lilly dress, good catch. I have sold several of these dresses for women on Ebay, if I can find them at garage sales to resell. Very collectible. And most have that type of shape – loosely fitted.

  242. Good luck Bunny.

  243. Rose,

    The afghan was in Harry’s office, which is why you hear him complain, “Hey, my mother made that!”

  244. Thanks Karl:) Butterflies

  245. #240–I think that Don’s phone was ringing before the commercial break, but Mrs. B didn’t answer. Of course, she could have been working on that crossword puzzle… I think that she died during the Bridgestone fire commercial.

  246. Regarding Betty, she couldn’t be bothered to take her daughter to the doctor, Sally runs away and her response is, when hubby #2 and she go into the city for a planned outing she’ll collect her. The fact that it is in the middle of her ex’s work day and SHE has custody is irrelevant to her. No wonder Sally is unhappy. But the mannerisms of the actress playing Sally were eerily the same as her mother. She’s learning all the worst traits of her mother and an explosion is coming.

  247. And Greg ๐Ÿ™‚

  248. #248–Karl, thank you!

  249. Harry Crane’s couch.

  250. #242 Thanks Karl

  251. Is 1965 too late for Betty to be wearing white gloves in the city? Was this something most women were still doing, or was putting Betty in white gloves a way of showing how is from an older generation?

  252. Re the mugger,

    I think Mad Men tries to avoid stereotyping any group as good or bad, to point out that there are people of all sorts in any demographic.

  253. #245 I think the hug from meghan working is to show how well she handles children verses faye not being good with children

  254. #251 I think Sally will run away to CA for the summer of ’67. Anyone??

  255. @245, I think the hug from Megan worked because it was someone taking the time to hug her. Don didn’t hug Sally (that we saw) and Faye didn’t know what to do with her. Betty probably doesn’t hug period. I think Sally needs a lot more hugging.

  256. Abe makes the male assumption that Peggy will swoon if he says “I wrote it for you.” It’s more complicated that that, Abe, especially with Peggy.

    Interesting that it was lesbian Joyce who delivers the closing homily about men and women. The outsider’s perspective?

  257. OK Bostonians… was the auto parts guys accents authentic? I listened to a podcast this week (studio 360 maybe?) about how Boston accents are portrayed in movies.

  258. @ bob #245 When is the last time anybody hugged Sally? She needs love very badly.

  259. #257, my 6th grade teacher wore white gloves to school every day. It was 1966.

  260. Watching it the second time I can’t believe how nonchalant Betty is about Sally running away.

  261. We had that same knife rack as in Betty’s kitchen.

  262. You’re welcome, thankers!

  263. #259 AC

    When she’s only 13? I don’t think so.

  264. 257–Retrogirl. Joan and Peggy wear gloves–you can see this when they come and go in the office (in this and other episodes). And so does Megan (she’s wearing a pair when she removes Mrs B’s desk blotter). Faye does not seem to wear gloves.

  265. #221 I think MW was very specifically and intentionally (does he do it any other way) trying to demonstrate the complexity of the issue to a modern audience. Roger and Joan have had very limited contact with African Americans. If this is representative of one of their few encounters with African Americans, they are not likely to get behind the Civil Rights movement. Sadly, this was, and is still, true of many people.

  266. #269 – Dang… I was hoping!

  267. 262-Melville. I’m still trying to figure out Joyce’s statement, so I can only state the obvious that in the end she to took a different elevator from “The Beautiful Girls.”

  268. Watching Don and Sally talk about Faye. Sally wants a new mom. Don says ain’t gonna be Faye. Sally doesn’t have any use for Faye after that.

    Re:the hug. Why can’t Don do it for Sally? He gave Faye a hug.

  269. @252 Lori-Which traits are you referring to? I see a lot more of Don in her than Betty, and I’m curious to hear your point of view.

    @260 AC-She’ll be far too young. Possibly Woodstock, but that’s a real stretch.

    @262 Melville-I wondered if Joyce was flirting with Peggy. Joyce asked what Peggy was feeling, and it seems that there is hope for Abe to redeem himself.

    I feel sorry for Faye. Don wasn’t testing her. He panicked, and Faye was there.

  270. Sally asks Don if he’s going to marry Faye, he said no, does that answer the question?

  271. #247 Omke, what makes me not certain it’s a Lilly Pulitzer dress that Sally is wearing is that I don’t know exactly which year the Minnie by Lilly Pulitzer line started. It might have been later than 1965. In that case, if it’s a vintage Lilly they found or reproduced, MM is incorrectly using it for 1965.

  272. OK, it’s driving me crazy–what was the version of “Autumn Leaves” playing briefly during the scene where Abe shows up at the office? It has the same piano figure that opens the 1958 Cannonball Adderley/Miles Davis version, but this one also had vibes & possibly strings on it as well. (And I just now learned that the theme music actually samples a 1960 recording of “Autumn Leaves” by Enoch Light.)

  273. Rose,

    I think Joyce is directly talking about the theme of the episode, which is the way in which society expects women to serve the function of defining men.

  274. #259 – At 13 yrs of age, I don’t see Sally joining the summer of love.
    #256 – In 1965, women were still doing the white glove wearing in town.

  275. #257 Retro Girl. I remember my brother’s girlfriend exclaiming over forgetting her gloves to one of my brother’s graduation events in 1969. Something about people not thinking she was a lady. Of course, this was in Atlanta, not New York.

  276. Joseph Seymour,

    Wouldn’t be surprised if Carbonara reworked “Autmn Leaves” himself.

  277. @274, my take was that she tried to get don to admit that he was interested in Faye and as soon as he admitted it is when she had no interest in her — I took it as her setting up a trap.

  278. #263, I lived in Boston for 22 years, and those accents didn’t quite ring the bell for me.

  279. If we didn’t need all this tension and drama to feed the story, Joan and Roger would be the best real-life couple.

    All of these women are so much smarter than the men and know what they want and yet they have to wait until the men decide what they want. Have things really changed? …not much.

  280. You don’t have to have children to be good with children. Most anybody, with or without kids, could be less ridiculously awkward than Faye was with Sally. Strange.

  281. Don was too upset to write in his journal, but he didn’t pour himself a drink, either. That’s a good thing.

    On the other hand, rum on his pancakes.

  282. 221:The mugging

    It kinda shows the times for a lot of whites. MLK *and* riots/crime were what we got on TV, and there was enough segregation/separation that was not enough of anything else.

    Sometimes I think Cooper is easily the best of them all.

  283. Loved what Bert said about Miss. Blankenship being an astronaut. Why doesn’t he have an office?

  284. I see Peggy hiring a black copywriter.

  285. Elevator scene at the end–showing three main feminine archetype, the Aphrodite-Joan, the Artemis-Peggy and Athena-Faye. Interesting comment about women and their choices. At least it offers a more faceted look at women’s roles at the time which were dominated primarily by either the ‘virgin’ or the ‘whore roles.

  286. Ann,

    In fairness to Dr. Faye, she was putting a lot more pressure on herself in the situation.

    That Don didn’t see the bigger picture also says something about where he sees things with Dr. Faye at the moment.

  287. Good luck, Bunny! I did the same in May. Didn’t sleep for days, but I had a gracious exit and am off on a new adventure.

    White gloves were worn for years after that – down South, they’re still worn for formal occasions. Think the Johnson ladies (we’re in their era now).

  288. Incidentally the bar scene irritated me with all the over the shoulder shots switching between Abe and Peggy. Flip-flop-flip-flop-flip. This kind of direction is why I don’t watch that much tv.

    But maybe it was supposed to make me irritable..

  289. @ 290 EdM-Does Peggy have the power to hire someone? On the other hand, if she has the power to fire, she must also have the power to hire. Still, I can see Don needing to sign off on her choices. Peggy might be able to get away with it if she shows Don his book, it’s good stuff, and Don approves.

  290. #271 Elise. Good insight. Still true today, sad to say.

  291. @ Retrogirl #275

    I wondered if Joyce was flirting with Peggy. Joyce asked what Peggy was feeling, and it seems that there is hope for Abe to redeem himself

    Joyce did say that she wouldn’t have set Peggy up with Abe if she didn’t think he was worthwhile. I think she’s still playing matchmaker.

    @ Karl #279

    I think Joyce is directly talking about the theme of the episode, which is the way in which society expects women to serve the function of defining men


  292. @ #291

    I completely love your Greek Goddess comparison.

    I think it’s interesting that none of the three women are mothers. Yes Peggy had a baby, but she’s never been a mother.

  293. Faye and Sally were drinking those 2 softdrinks (orange and cola) from the first scene when don and faye broke the lamp.

  294. bob,

    Mad Men usually tries to avoid that type of flip-floppery… but it may have been dictated by the location. Hard to shoot behind a bar.

  295. We were still wearing white gloves to church in 1969, when I was 19. This was in Florida.

  296. Rum on pancakes sounds good, actually.

  297. Megan was moved by the incident w/ Sally. More there to discover, methinks.

  298. @ 291 Donna-I saw them the three of them in the elevator in a different manner. Faye represents the career woman; a husband and kids never interested in her. She went after what she wanted, a career. Joan represents the married woman. She wanted the husband and kids, and went after that. Her plan was to work until she was married. She’s still working and loves it, but if things changed (Greg was able to support her), she would quit her job. Peggy represents something undefined. She’s not sure who she is or what exactly she wants yet.

  299. Faye: “I’m not good with children.”

    Don (thinking): “Hey, neither is Betty!”

  300. I was also offended that the mugger was black. It is offensive because the mugger is the only black voice we have heard all season. Carla didn’t speak in her one short cameo. And the show takes place in NYC!

  301. @297 Melville-I wonder if Abe asked Joyce to find out how Peggy felt about him. It’s a tad junior high, asking one girl to find out how another girl feels about him. If we’re lucky, Peggy may give Abe a second chance.

  302. #221, Sarah – why would you be pissed? The fact that you’re pissed means you’re too ashamed to admit the reality of things. By having that condescending attitude, it would make you more racist.

    Think of that scene in the elevator when Pete Campbell asks Hollis about TVs and Hollis is too afraid to answer. Pete Campbell is being totally naive and unaware of social rules. Then again, he’s seemingly always unaware of social rules. Imagine if he were aware of social rules, but pretends they don’t exist, like if he said something like, “So Hollis, I’m a big fan of fried chicken and watermelon; how about you?”

    I’m telling you that as minority, I’m consistently amazed and blown away with the way Mad Men deals with race issues, from Carla, to Hollis, to the Chinamen with the chickens. In this episode, we find out that Abe is a total jerk. Sure, in his mind he thinks he’s the altruistic savior of black people. But that’s the problem: he thinks he’s the savior of black people. As in, black people aren’t really people, they are a political cause. Abe is the worst kind of racist.

  303. RetroGirl (304)

    And all three are struggling with their choices.

  304. Faye represents the career woman; a husband and kids never interested in her. She went after what she wanted, a career. Joan represents the married woman. She wanted the husband and kids, and went after that. Her plan was to work until she was married. Sheโ€™s still working and loves it, but if things changed (Greg was able to support her), she would quit her job. Peggy represents something undefined. Sheโ€™s not sure who she is or what exactly she wants yet.

    Exactly. Peggy finds herself struggling to identify with either, which is why she was standing between the two in the elevator.

  305. in the elevator at the end 2/3 had white gloves with them

  306. @308 Jimmy H.-So basically Abe is a younger version of Paul Kinsey. That makes sense.

  307. Megan was the only one who got right down on the floor with Sally while everyone else stood towering over her. That really spoke to me. She picked her off the floor and held her, and no one has done that for her in a long time. Also, Megan said “She’s visiting” when Joan asked why Sally was in the office when Miss Blankenship died, not “She ran away”. I think Megan really showed Sally respect and when she left with Betty, Megan was fighting back tears.

  308. Love how the lesbian (I forgot her name) goes into the elevator by herself (the lowest on the woman’s totem pole at the time?)

    and the other women share an elevator, Joan, the “glorified secretary who wants children, Faye, not kid friendly at all, and with the Focus on Peggy in the middle – the one woman in the elevator who wants both (and has had a child) and wants the traditional boyfriend/married and the career. I love you MAD MEN!!!!!

  309. The 3 career women in the elevator – all childless (I’m not counting Peggy’s given up for adoption). Interesting. 2 probably don’t want children but rather prefer to pursue their professions (Faye and Peggy) and Joanie that wants children but time is running out.

  310. Jimmy H,

    Let’s not start imputing racism to people. I found it interesting that they chose an African-American mugger. It didn’t make me angry, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was intended to be provocative.

  311. #306, Melissa: Your logic doesn’t work. Maybe you you should be offended on behalf of Asians also as there hasn’t been a single one all season. It’s like Asians don’t exist or something. How mean. Or the two swedish ladies who dropped by Joan’s apartment. Now Swedes are being stereotyped. Booooo

  312. Jimmy H, I agree – Abe is just dehumanizing! He didn’t try to get to know Peggy as a person at all.

    I missed the “Chinamen” with the chickens episode. When was that?

  313. @ Tonybono #310

    Exactly. Peggy finds herself struggling to identify with either, which is why she was standing between the two in the elevator

    Good catch. And Joyce taking a different elevator (credit Rose in SV #273) shows she’s taken a completely different path.

  314. @313 Patti-I had totally missed that. With that kind of discretion, Megan would make a great new secretary for Don. I wonder if Megan was an older sibling from a large family. Maybe she’s just really good with kids.

    @314 b-Joyce, the lesbian, got into an elevator by herself, because she is in a totally different position from Joan, Peggy, and Faye. They are all dealing with issues relating to men and family. In 1965, lesbian adoption or even marriage was unthinkable. Having Joyce go alone shows how separate she is from the other three.

  315. Normally MM portrays non-whites as humble, sensitive, and honest. But today we see a black man robbing Joan and Roger. After they were robbed they embraced each other and had sex in the street. Being robbed by a black man lead to love for Joan and Roger.

    The message here was this: White gentiles need non-whites because non-whites have “soul,” and without them whites would only live for material objects, and not for enlightenment and love (the way non-whites do). Unenlightened White gentiles should be happy to give up their communities, schools, job, taxes, and genetic material to non-whites because this will lead to more love in their lives.

    So this was a new twist on a common theme for mad men. This common theme of course is anti-white hate. The rest of the episode was typical, as it portrayed white people as 1) poor parents incapable of understanding their children, 2) insensitive to horrific events, 3) racist and bigoted toward handicapped people, 4) only concerned about work and money.

  316. #313-Patti

    Very insightful look at Megan. ๐Ÿ™‚

  317. It was a Florence Eismann dress that Sally wore. The Patty Duke Show was a must watch in 1965. Vicks was bought by Bristol Myers.

  318. Tibbar W,

    That’s a very reductive — and inaccurate — view of the show. But thanks for the link, as it makes your agenda obvious.

  319. In next weeks episode, I am dying to know what Betty tells Henry. Is it that Gene may not be Don’s? last week she said Don was the only man she was with and failed to mention the one night stand. The Praternity topic came up once before when Don asks Peggy if she knew who the father of her baby was.

  320. Three beautiful women navigating through a man’s world. It’s 1965 and you wouldn’t believe the chauvinism even though it wasn’t called that yet. In a few years, women will have had enough and feminism is born (although The Feminine Mystique was written in 1963 and it took a few years for women to identify and mobilize into a movement).

  321. I was very disappointed with this episode. If the Suitcase might win Mad Men another Emmy; The Beautiful Girls might cost them one. The writing which I have come to expect a very high standard; was sub par. I hated the way Sally was portrayed. I hate that both Don and Betty are pitiful excuses for parents. I hated the way Ida Blankenship’s death was handled. It only showed what a bunch of callous morons inhabit SCDP. It was not funny at all. I love Mad Men a lot; but tonight I didn’t care what happened to any of the characters; and I have never felt that way before !

  322. I wonder if Peggy will hire another woman copy writer.

  323. Does anyone remember how when we first met Joyce and she was talking to Megan, waiting for Peggy, Megan said that she wanted to read books while on reception but had been told (undoubtedly by Joan) that it “didn’t look good”?

  324. @325 Trixie-Gene is Don’s. The one-night stand happened after Betty was already pregnant.

  325. #312, RetroGirl: you’re right! Even Joan called Kinsey’s B.S. out for dating a black girl. Not originally because he liked her, but only because dating her meant he was “open-minded” Remember his lofty princeton-style speech on the bus? All the black people were looking at him, thinking, “oh god, when will he shut up?”

    #316, Karl: No I think the real point was to show how people like Abe are making things worse. He’s so concerned with the right for black people to vote that he’s totally missed the kind of desperation that poverty can bring to people who are routinely treated as second-class. Instead of writing a treatise on why SDCP are a bunch of Nazis, maybe he should do something to help the inner-city misery that started in New York around this time.

  326. Women were not considered to be anywhere near equal to men until the sons of women who did consider themselves to be equal grew up to become men, like my sons, I hope.

  327. #324-Karl

    Thank you for catching that too.

  328. When the boys in the office we joking about Don’s next secratary either quitting, being fired or dying, I wish Peggy would have reminded them that she was promted.

  329. I thought the last shot was trite and beneath MM standards. Megan will be the one, thank God. I get INFURIATED when anyone sez anything derrogatory about darling Sally. Don please step up and take her away from tjat witch!!! Please. The 3 women are Don’s true secreatry/main helper (Joan) Don’s confidanr/mentee who should by all rights be the future Mrs Draper(Pegs) and the woman who will be his last relationship that’ll rebound him into his marriage with Megan(F)e). IMO-what the hell do I know?

  330. RE: Black mugger – I am inclined to think it was a deliberate choice on behalf of MW and co to underline the complexities of race relationships on the show. A major plot point tonight was the civil rights movement and a company refusing to serve black people (and the agency having no problem with it). The mugging seemed to play right down the lines of very clearly defined roles – the mugger even shouted “I know what to do” and I believe so did Roger. I doubt either Roger or Joan are the most racially open-minded. If we recall back to S2, Joan made some relatively racist statements to and about Kinsey’s girlfriend Sheila, and Roger has actually performed in blackface FFS.

    The mugger kind of shoved Roger as he walked away. I was immediately struck by how much Roger (and Joan) really looked like “The Man” in that scene. We’re starting to hear about the ANGER minorities have and being treated as lesser and I think that was coming out in that scene to some extent.

  331. I’m glad that I was able to watch the encore presentation and read everyone else’s comments. I missed hearing Joyce’s vegetable soup/men and container/women speech. I heard the vegetable soup, but I missed her point. After the second viewing, I think that Peggy’s response (“I don’t think that’s necessarily true”) is interesting. In the final elevator scene, Peggy is between Joan and Faye, two older women. Faye who doesn’t appear to want a marriage and family, and Joan who does want one. Peggy *could* have had a marriage and family (she told Harry in season 2 that she could have bound him to her), but she chose to not be a mother/wife (at that time). She’s still trying to figure out how she will navigate her way through relationships. I don’t think that Abe and Peggy are over, yet–Abe got Peggy thinking about things, which is more than Mark ever did.

    And yes, I think that Megan is the only person who really answers Sally’s questions on a level that Sally can deal with (e.g. telling her that Mrs. Blankenship “went away” not that “she’s dead”). As a receptionist, she got Don out of the meeting when Sally was waiting. To Sally, Megan must seem like a miracle worker–she answers her questions, and she can get Don’s full attention for Sally. And she does offer Sally a hug, not rejecting her when Sally wraps her arms around her.

  332. I’m kind of conflicted by Joyce. I admire her spunk and candid, witty ways, but I find her a little affected and self-aware for my tastes.

  333. I was surprised to see Joyce in pants.

  334. @ bob mcmanus #232

    Don was as instantly and instinctually offended by Kenโ€™s joke

    When confronted directly by that kind of behavior, Don does respond angrily. But he doesn’t (at least not yet) respond that way to it in the larger institutional sense. For example, in the scene (it may have been back in Season 1) where he was angered by the two creeps in the elevator talking so crudely in front of a woman, he coldly told them “take off your hats,” but in such a way that they knew just what he thought of their behavior. But last week, when told about Joey, he shrugged “boys will be boys,” and later let Peggy take care of it.

  335. #336-Cherielabombe

    I think the mugger said, “You know what to do” prompting Roger to hand over his money and valuables.

  336. Monday morning I’m having french toast with rum for breakfast.

  337. Betty had the one night stand during the Missile Crisis in mid-October 1962 and Gene was born exactly 8 months later-unless he was a premature birth, Gene is Don’s. Betty is gonna tell Henry she’s preggers-wat else of any importance would the queen of Dullsville have to say? I mean, she’s not gonna rat out Don………..yet. Wait until Betty gets a load of Megan when Don announces his upcoming nuptials. Sigh

  338. Also, Betty’s sexual encounter in the bar happened after her doctor’s appointment confirming her pregnancy. Gene is unquestionably Don’s son.

  339. I am the same age as Sally, grew up in the sixites but the difference is my Dad (same age as Don) was an Italian immigrant and married my Mom a first generation Italian-American.
    I experienced all that went on, the race riots, feminisist movement, college protest….all this happened in a space of less than 10 years. What I took from all this upheaveal is that no matter what you can not buy into being a “victim”.

  340. When Joan and Roger get mugged, what part of Manhattan were they supposed to be in? I thought I heard Roger say something about it, but I can’t make out what he’s saying.

  341. #321 Tibbar–I think you’ve got it wrong, buddy. The mugging was simply a catalyst to activate the primal urges between Joan and Roger, no matter who committed it. That is why scary movies are so popular for teenage boys to take teenage girls to. They are considered quite an aphrodesiac.

  342. Sally Draper and the death of MM. Watching a ten-year old cope is getting a bit tiresome, and this girl has had more screen time this year than Pete Campbell. Enough.

    Liked the interplay between Joan and Roger at the diner, but didn’t buy the quickie in the alley after the mugging. Seemed silly and felt I was watching a reaction that only actors on a TV show would have.

    Funny about Abe. Gotta bang out of his idealism w/out realism approach. He’s got grad school in his future. Oh, and then insisting on waiting in the lobby until Peggy’s read his Nazis of Madison Avenue screed? Ugh.

    Glad to see my boyo knocking boots with the beautiful Doc Faye, and loved her vulnerability at the end. Btw, am I the only one who grew up in household where telling an adult to “shut up” would have resulted in a little corporal punishment?

    Oh, and though I was impressed how Wiener and company managed to make Blankenship’s death touching by the end it did lead to the best line of the night: “Cause of death? Don Draper.”

  343. I’m troubled by how Don’s feelings/manner toward Sally are treated. He rarely shows her affection. He want’s to keep her locked in either his apartment or office and expects others to babysit her. Does not ring true for a divorced father in his socio-economic class who … because of guilt … would bend over backwards to placate. Draper’s inabiity to be intimate with women may explain this … but the “strained” relationship between Sally and her “Dad” is excruciating nevertheless.

  344. “Did you break it?”
    “You mean the lamp?”

    176: I think Stan said BABETTE Mimieux. (Babette=French bimbo)

    (Was that Cara Buono in the Kindle ad? Looked like a actress’s wig bob, and if it was, her natural color is so much better. Oh, and “How do you see in this light?” “Oh, it’s a Penguin–and it cost me less than this Mai Tai.)”

    221: Took guts for Peggy to bring up the Negro question in that crowd–probably more than Abe has–or should I say “had”, because he’s past tense.

    246, 313: Megan instinctively knew what to do: pick her up and hold her, and Sally knew instinctively to trust her. Has she ever been held like that, and responded like that? Not in recent memory, I’m sure. Megan may seem a little stilted, trying a little too hard, but I can see her growing up to be that wonderful woman on the train.
    While the three polished ladies stand, waiting for Don to tell them what to do.

    299: I bet the Coke was Don’s and the orange was Faye’s, but Sally got first pick.

  345. “I would ask my secretary to do it….but she’s dead” I have to say I laughed so hard during that whole removing the body scene. “My mother (grandmother?) made that!” (blanket)

  346. Was Ms. Blankenship already dead when Don came out of his office and said, “I don’t want to hear it … ” or something like that? I noticed that she was not in the frame during that scene. And why was she wearing the dark goggles again? I thought those were just for after her surgery and were being passed around among the boys for comic relief. Not important, just details I wondered whether anybody else noticed.

    And gee, I’m disappointed to hear that Sally’s dress was by a famous designer. The pattern reminded me of one of my own from back then (I’m about the same age, born in 1950) but that would make it a “Peaches and Cream” creation.

    One more thing, I thought the empathy from Megan might have come from her own father relationship (or lack of); she seemed to be on the verge of tears when Joyce was at her desk after the mother-child reunion in the lobby.

    #176 Steve D — what was the Yvette Mimieux reference? Would hate to miss that!

    Love reading the comments here right after the show — there is always such great insight into the styles and music!

  347. #346, they were talking about Broadway when they got mugged.
    #348, I didn’t quite see how anyone could be prepared to be amorous so quickly after a mugging. Seems as if circumstances would make rising to the occasion in an instant a little difficult.

  348. #352. Yes, I noticed that Megan seemed upset by all the goings on. It looked as if she was about to cry right as Joyce came in.

  349. It wasn’t Cara Buono in the Kindle ad. It looked like her, but it wasn’t her.

    That ad, for the record, is somewhat misleading. Sure, the Kindle doesn’t have a glare like the iPad can in certain lights, but the iPad is a superior technology.

    No, I don’t work for Apple. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  350. RIP Miss Blankenship — too bad her last words to Don were “Are you going to the toilet?”

    Anybody else think that Peggy and Joyce will get together?

  351. $349 GregPeck. But Don is the only parent who shows her any true affection. He told her he loves her. He stroked her hair and talked with her at bedtime. The only affectionate thing I have ever seen Betty do is in a montage scene when Betty puts lipstick on her.

  352. #280 to #259 โ€“ At 13 yrs of age, I donโ€™t see Sally joining the summer of love.

    It’s not impossible. A good friend of mine was 13 when she ran away from home to go to Woodstock.

  353. I gotta admit, I was trying to figure out how Joan was gonna get that painted-on dress up enough to even be able to have sex with Roger. That in itself would have been quite a feat and if a girdle were involved–fugeddaboutit!! Perhaps why they didn’t show any more of that scene.
    Too complicated.

  354. #313 Patti,

    Thank you. I saw the same things re Megan and Sally.

    Megan’s young, but she really sees that little girl. She has a big heart. As someone who has spent a lot of time around kids, I think the source matters less than the fact of that.

    Kindness is a choice. Tonight, Megan made it. And it wasn’t public, or faked (“I was worried about you!”)

    Awesome. Let’s see more of her. ๐Ÿ™‚

  355. Oh, and anybody catch that when asked about Ms. Blankenship’s family, Bert said that she had a niece — no husband, don’t know if she’s single or widowed, but if the former, would certainly fit in with tonight’s theme.

  356. #352-dylanfan

    I noticed that when Don came out of his office and said, “Make sure she doesn’t come out of there” (something like that) that they didn’t show Mrs. Blankenship.

    That was also when Don went back into the conference room, and the phone continuously rang. I was assuming (after a secone viewing, of course) she was already dead at that point.

  357. I love Sally, but I think we’re going to see some bad behavior from her for awhile. She’s given up on her Mom. She’s acting out, despite the therapy she’s still undergoing. She’s too thin (as Mrs. Blankenship pointed out shortly before her passing). She casually lied to her father when he demanded a promise.

    And one design item caught my eye on the second viewing. When Don was called out to get her, Sally was waiting in an office whose windows clearly showed a large address across the street. The address was 666. I do believe MW was sending a signal that all is not going to be well with Sally any time soon.

  358. 354:(Shrug.) She is the receptionist. This may be her big chance.

    Third time thru, as Betty & Sally leave, Joyce enters, there is a nice closeup of Megan as Don leaves behind her. The woman is in love.

    Thought:When SC became SCDP, Joan may have not exactly had her pick of the best of the secretarial staff. Bench feels a little weak. Poor Joan.

  359. That’s right, Patti. Betty had already been diagnosed. That’s the SECOND time you’ve helped this figuratively blind man see something I missed. Thank, you. As Freddy might say; ‘you’re a doll. Precious’. LOL

  360. I saw that 666 too!

  361. #71

    Ouch! I don’t care when that was said, that was way uncalled for and New York B###chy!

  362. #278 Joseph — You’re right, they borrowed the intro of the classic Miles/Cannonball “Autumn Leaves,” even with the same piano voicings, and they only slightly changed the bass figure — but after that I don’t think it ever actually transitioned into “Autumn Leaves.”

    So…why this quote?

  363. #107

    I thought that was really bad, the joke. I am more surprised that Roger or Joan didn’t make some comment as they walked by.

    This was a very good humor sketch, almost as much punch as the lawnmower, but pulled back juuuuuust that much to be funny without farce.

  364. #179

    What, no one’s going to name the Nancy Drew story??

    I saw something Black Pearl, I think.

  365. #170

    Actually, that is a good observation, now that you bring it up…where did that book come from?

  366. Just wanted to chime in with a few things-first, for the commenters asking about the woman on Rubicon tonight, she played Lena Basilone on The Pacific with James Badge Dale, so AMC seems to be poaching all kinds of talent from HBO at this point. It WAS NOT the woman who plays Faye on MM.
    Second, as soon as Faye said Hello, I’m Faye right after Don had introduced her to Sally I said to myself “bad with kids.” Funny that she admitted it by the end of the episode. She clearly did not want to get involved in this mess of Don’s, and I think they are done, and that’s what their ending scene together meant.
    Third, Megan was clearly distraught by what was going on with Sally, and trying to be discreet about it. She was practically in tears when Joyce showed up there at the end-future plotline for sure.
    Fourth, Joanie and Roger!!!!!! My best bet is that she gets pregnant from that encounter, and since we now know her husband’s shipping out immediately, she’s on a train in the next ep to go see him, have sex and then be able to claim its his without ruining two marriages. The adultery is not what really bothers her-its the ending of the marriages. She never really wanted Roger to leave Mona for her, she wasn’t comfortable with it, and if she does get pregnant and it comes out that its not Greg’s it would wreck hers and Roger’s marriage. She also probably cares more about Roger’s new marriage than his old one since he left Mona as he always said he wanted to but got married right away, meaning he wants to be settled down as she always said he did.

    Just my immediate thoughts-can’t wait for the deeper dissections later this week! What another great episode in gender issues-I am totally loving this season like no other.

  367. Too much Sally this year? No. She’s been in 5 of the 9 eps so far. There has not been enough Pete Campbell-not by a long shot. I agree there. Which is why I think Pete may be the one who is offed. Why else bring back Aaron Staton, if not for the seamlessness Cosgrove will provide in handling the accounts when Pete is gone. Let’s start the countdown to when Don proposes to Megan. Over/Under episode 10 next season is my call. After all the nightmare secretaries Don strikes the mother-lode. How chauvinistic of me. This is by far the DUMBEST speculation so far. My apologies in advance, to all who will suffer having to read this.

  368. 4th time thru, probably too many.

    Don back from lunch, Peggy says sign off on these which I just slaved thru lunch to get done. Is that dig really necessary? Don takes a nap.

    Blankenship says “Sadist or masochist. And you know which you are”

    Next scene:Peggy, Joyce, Stan. Joyce playful, Peggy giggly, Stan is Stan. Stan does his thing, turns and sees Peggy & Joyce, stricken expression. Lotsa bravado, but Joey had his number. Stan is in love.

    Peggy always seems to do ok. They fall like flies around her. Even argues with Joyce. “I don’t think so.” She is not just assertive, she is argumentative and disputatious.

    Which is she?

  369. #191

    I agree, after hearing this, I don’t see Don with Betty or Faye.

    Cool, more new characters to watch!

  370. #191

    Actually, that should have been not seeing Dick Whitman with either Betty or Faye.

  371. #216

    Thank you. I was wondering what the musical clue that was going to turn out to be.

  372. #365 Tilden

    I’m not picking on you, Tilden, really I’m not! It’s just that I’m a little obsessed with details. A born nit-picker, some may say.

  373. 378:Nit picking would be responding to the discussion of blacks this season on Mad Men by mentioning that the hand that gives Betty her dropped purse last week was black, probably the washroom attendant.

    You made me do it.

  374. #350 Steve Paradis & #353 dylanfan

    Stan definitely said “Yvette Mimieux”

    She was a beautiful blonde, sex-kittenish actress in the early & mid ’60s. She played the virginal “good girl” who gets seduced & passed around by a bunch of frat guys & attempts suicide in 1960’s “Where the Boys Are.” I remember her in a “Dr. Kildare” episode where she played a surfer girl with a brain tumor or epilepsy or something like that, sometime in 1963–65.

    I think Stan was being sarcastic.

  375. #217

    I don’t think she’s acting crazy, she’s acting appropriate for most any kid going through what she’s going through. Kids are going to have outbursts and tantrums, even with little to trigger them, Sally has plenty of adult level triggers going on.

    I am curious how neither she, Don nor Betty are discussing her therapy progress any and from what the therapist mentioned to Betty there would be monthly visits(no pun), and for that matter, there’s been no monthly crack in Betty’s persona after not only her daughter seeing a psychiatrist, but in theory, she’s getting some mental couch time too, and story wise, it should have been a few visits under their belts by now.

  376. Patti, I’m extremely grateful to you. I’m a nit-pcker too or sadly, think that I am. Tell me if you think Don and Megan should happen. This is the only woman I’ve ever rooted for Don to be with. I’m eagerly anticipating for Don to step up and do the right thing and NOTICE this woman. Don has to be better to darling Sally. Two Betty’s is not what darling Sally needs for parents.

  377. #214

    Those may be her words to Don, but it seemed to me, Don told her to make sure Sally didn’t leave the office as he went in the conference room, but as he entered the room, the phone rang 3 times in the background making me think she died just after he spoke to her.

    I’m going to have to watch tomorrow night to make sure.

  378. # 356:

    Joyce has moved on from Peggy. My guess is that Megan of French Extraction will be (subtly) paired up with Joyce.

  379. Interesting on the first go round of discussion little talk about Joyce and Stan.

    I found that scene with Stan’s comments to be anachronistic, the 3 of them were a little too comfortable with her being lesbian and him talking about lesbianism in front of the woman he wasn’t comfortable with nude or seeing her nude. That dialogue didn’t seem right.

    I thought the scene in the bar with Abe and Peggy was excellent and a little reminder that, ‘they had a long way to go baby!’.

  380. #223

    It’s called irony. I think it shows that that anger was out there in the country, both sides of the issue and things were moving along, but it wasn’t going to help out the average poor guy on the street anytime soon.

    I thought it was interesting how Roger, who refers to his war service, goes by the book and hands everything over, even Joan’s valuables and just wants to leave unharmed. He acts sensible, in the situation, which is not how we are used to seeing him act.

  381. Did anybody else have a flash of “The Messenger” being at Joan’s door?

    And just have to say, very disappointed in Abe being so inept. Isn’t it unrealistic that he would be so well-read, apparently well-regarded by Joyce, and yet apparently unaware of feminist issues? I really had hopes for him to be Peggy’s new crush and breakthrough. And that same black leather jacket in both of his scenes?

    Music people — what was the second song in the bar? The one playing during Peggy’s speech and departure?

    LOL — although I missed it in the first two viewings, that 666 in the window is pretty prominent. Subtle comedy? I guess that Vivian Winters woman definitely had an Anti-Christ attitude about her.

    Mostly, I just wanted Don to say yes, Sally, you can stay with me, not forever, but yes, for the weekend, so we can talk this through and spend some time together.

    “Who’d a thunk it?” I think it’s reasonable to think Sally might have already had the Nancy Drew book at Don’s apartment and just picked it up from there. I used to have three of four of those books going at a time and read them more than once.

    Another diner (albeit with sausages in the window, so probably a deli) and the waitresses appear to be wearing black smocks in this one.

  382. More observations in totally random order:

    John Slattery does amazing things when he talks into a phone. It’s hard to believe that he’s acting, because when he does this, I can hear the other end of the conversation. yowza

    On the encore viewing, I saw that Sally brought the Nancy Drew book and a little plaid ditty bag to SCDP, (which presumably had her night gown, if she doesn’t have one at Don’s). I didn’t see it on the first viewing because, gee, I was distracted by the characters, plot and storyline…. *grin*

    Civil Rights–SC (the older firm) wasn’t really the bastion of social change: among other things, they supported Nixon instead of Kennedy. Also someone mentioned it earlier in the comments that it’s more interesting for your characters to do bad things rather than always being going (otherwise we would be enraptured with Harry Crane, not Don Draper).

    The Black mugger and other representations. Yes, I was annoyed, by the black mugger, but I’m not expecting MM to bring on a fully integrated cast. There have been very very subtle (almost glacially subtle) signs that things are changing: last week’s episode showed a hip black/colored couple in the first few minutes. I admit, I was hoping to see more diversity, and Cassius Clay was depicted (albeit as a suitcase) in a potential ad. This week I thought that my personal reaction was very funny when the manicure/masseuses showed up: that they German/Austrian and not Filipina or Vietnamese (my 21st century point of view conflicting with MM’s 20th). The TV show “I Spy” with Bill Cosby and Robert Culp is from 1965, so I’m hoping that shows up in the Autumn episodes–I think that we are still in July.

  383. #252

    You know, it struck me when I first heard Betty talk about where Sally was supposed to be…Betty is SUPPOSED to be meeting with Sally’s psychiatrist monthly for ‘progress’ reports, but there’s been no discussion about Sally’s issues yet. Her tantrums I chalk up to a reasonable emotional outburst for a tween in a messed up family situation, but Betty saying how Karla is picking up and dropping off (maybe) Sally tells me that Betty is distancing herself from Sally’s emotional problems.

    Two reasons, typical 60s avoidance of ‘mental’ problems of anyone’s OR Betty’s avoidance of any chance SHE might have to think about her behaviors and feelings in relation to Don and the kids.

  384. # 370 Leo Says: “What, no oneโ€™s going to name the Nancy Drew story?? I saw something Black Pearl, I think.”

    Sally’s Nancy Drew book could be either “The Thirteenth Pearl” or “The Clue of the Black Keys”

  385. I think that the necklace Sally is wearing is the one she received from Don for xmas? She’s quite an actress at such a young age. Her ability to channel Betty in mannerism of speech is impressive. It also appears as though she is able to ask the direct questions to her Dad – something her mom could never do. It’s as though the hardness of Betty has gelled with the innocence of a child. Interesting.

  386. #273

    Good pick up about Joyce leaving in one elevator and the other 3 main MM women ending up in an elevator on the ‘right’ side. The other point seems to be those 3 have troubled love lives.

  387. #386
    Roger’s been mugged before, or he knows exactly what to do and does it without thinking, because there’s no time to think. There is time afterward, and that’s when you find out who you are–scared is good, because it’ll save you from emulating Richard Pryor’s legendary macho man, but still being able to not do something stupid is as close to grace under pressure as I hope you ever have to get.

    And this is a hopeful sign that there’ll be no Magic Negros in this series.

  388. #286

    I agree with you about Faye. It was interesting how awkward she was with Sally, even though she says, ‘she loves kids’.

    I thought her comical address to Sally both times shows she really doesn’t love kids.

  389. The book is The Clue of the Black Keys. Wikipedia entry

  390. #308

    +1 on your comments about Abe, but people like Abe were out there then, and like it or not, people like Abe and their energy helped change things in the country. And people like Abe also helped keep the ERA and women’s rights from becoming significant issues until into the 1970s.

    I think Abe and Peggy’s conversation was an important peek back in time.

  391. I never comment, but I wanted to wish good luck to Bunny. Godspeed! Much luck to you, I just bet this is a scary time. You will do just great.


  392. I am not convinced at all that Megan and Don will ever happen. She may turn into his permanent secretary and she handled Sally very well but it would throw away all the progress he’s making with Faye, where we’re actually seeing a new Don. “I don’t want to be that man,” he said last week.

    #216. I was curious about the song at the end, but it was definitely not the music from The Fog.

  393. You know, there’s lots of comments about Megan and Don and Megan’s interaction with Sally, but has anyone checked Megan’s left hand?

    How are you so sure Megan’s not already married? It’s interesting that in the office, maternal feelings are seen as a little out of place in the female characters’ behavior.

  394. How many times this season have we seen an episode end in an elevator? Tonight with Joan, Peggy & Faye. A few weeks ago in the flashback with Don & Roger. Then there have been other elevator moments: last week with Joan & Peggy; earlier in the season when Peggy met Joyce. There was the wonderful shot of Peggy & Pete looking at each other through the glass as Peggy waited for the elevator. Not sure if this has any significance but I don’t remember elevators figuring so prominently as scene settings in previous seasons.

  395. Very interesting feminine-issue themes here (as the title would suggest). The pant-suited no-nonsense lesbian, the up and comer, the stereo typical administrative manager, the professional – are juxtaposed.
    That sexual tension between Roger and Joan had to bust (pardon the pun) open at some point. I love them together. #372- great point – I think you’re right.
    I have also thought Megan would be a good choice for Don. I just do not feel comfortable with him with Dr. Faye. Someone mentioned her likeness to Dr. Joyce Brothers once and now it’s all I see. Megan has always been this classic beauty wafting about in the background. She and Don would be great together. I liked he and Betty together but she is just so negative and bitchy all the time these days.
    What on earth is up with the 666? Obviously deliberate…. odd.

  396. #327

    Wow! I cannot disagree more. I thought this was one of the better episodes and the humor was appreciated and not nearly as over the top as the Christmas party. “Hey, my mother made that!!” ๐Ÿ˜€ and Megan with her gloves picking up the blotter.
    I am really surprised at people today having such strong reactions to Sally’s behavior. I find them very appropriate considering her situation and well acted.

    I’m 50/50 about how nonchalant Peggy is being friendly with Joyce and I do not think Stan spoke true when teasing Peggy and Joyce about lesbians, but I thought there was a lot of emotion displayed in this ep, Fay and Don, Don and Sally, Bert and Ida, Roger and Joan, even Abe and Peggy though it was more on Abe’s part and you can add Joyce caring about Peggy by trying to hook her up. Because Joyce cares about Peggy.

  397. I’m going to email L/S again, but is there a way to switch the comment order so the new comments are on top rather than down at the bottom?
    It’s a huge hassle once the comments get past 100 :-\

  398. Megan was in the group of single ladies being interviewed by Faye a while ago, so I think she’s not married.

  399. #394 Leo – I agree re Faye. As much as Don’s comment about Blankenship’s ‘acute absence’ in the office was funny, Faye doesn’t even as much as glance at her desk- she seems to have her sights completely set on impressing Don via Sally (patting her hair nervously). Her training as a psychologist keen on organizational behaviour seems to all but evaporate. There has just been a sudden death in the offices of her clients and she doesn’t even acknowledge it. I think she is desperate for Don.

  400. #170 – Sally was walking from camp and had a little backpack – I’m assuming that is where the book is from. That or she had it at Don’s apartment and brought it to work the next day.

    #222 – I’m thinking Joan will be pregnant and not know the father – we always end the season with a baby or a secret about a baby…

    #304 – Great analysis on the final 3 women in elevator…

  401. Things I loved about this episode…

    – Joan and Roger back together!! The chemistry is awesome. They love each other…

    – Joan’s dresses – Janie Bryant rules.

    – Don and Sally’s little wave as Don went back to work…

  402. Megan’s hug with Sally reminded me of Violet (I hope I’m remembering the name correctly) holding Betty. Betty clung to Violet as Sally did to Megan. Sally is longing for a naturally maternal person.

    Don of course having mother issues of the highest order is completely clueless when it comes to that natural, nurturing mother thing.

    Sally is the young Jedi to Betty… she has learned well! She can manipulate with the best of them – plays sweet, cooks, flatters, get’s her way and then has a fit in the office where she knows Don will give into her because he’ll want to save face. Genius.

  403. The tableau at the end where the camera lingered for just a brief moment – with all the women in his life – Joan, Peggy, Faye, Betty and Sally. The fact that Megan was there makes me wonder if we’ll see her more in Don’s life.

    To me the minute Faye made plans for dinner that weekend and they had that polite nodding thing – I thought she was toast… done.

  404. Stereotypes…..everyone is under pressure and the stereotypes come flying out. The black mugger was the perfect example. Of course, who else would it be.

    “Men never know whats going on.” That one still gets used. Surprised nobody commented on this. Making fun of stuttering. Fillmore wants an ad that actually plays to accepted stereotypes. Surprised they didn’t look more like Manny Moe and Jack.

    Fay is so pretentious. Overly dressed and shallow. Stereotypes about Blankenships death. Jokes. You can feel that thing needed to change so badly.

    I usually think child actors are awful, but Sally is great. Her tantrum was not overacted and she can put emotion behind her eyes like a pro. Give HER an emmy.

    Pete is dying in this agency. He makes himself useful carrying out the body.

  405. I think Don’s made too many comments to too many people in the past few episodes that he’s not going to get ‘involved’ with anyone in the office again…Faye notwithstanding and I think that makes Faye not a likely long term relationship. Not romantic anyway.

    I think Don’s behavior towards Sally is tough to watch, but in keeping with the times, and his upbringing. We keep forgetting he doesn’t have a model family to pattern after. He does care for her and I think, after the scene with Betty and all the office workers watching the 3 of them interact, he knows instinctively what he doesn’t consciously(?) know is right and he’s going to try to insist on some sort of more active custody arrangement with his kids.
    Possibly if he has to pressure Betty to do this. I may be wrong, but I don’t think he’s going to back down on his family commitments in the future.

    It’s going to be interesting to see who is in Don’s secretary seat next ep.
    Good catch someone about the scene next week showing Joan going to visit her husband. Hmm, if she does get pregnant by Roger, will the baby have white hair so we’ll know it’s his????

  406. #317 We have seen Asians this season, recall the Japanese businessmen from Honda and Roger’s very negative reaction to them? The 60’s were a time of conflict and hypocrisy, but is it unreasonable that a mugger in NYC could be an African American during this time frame?

    I was a bit disappointed that Roger did not do something chivalrous during the mugging like try to palm Joan’s ring rather than hand it over.

  407. #404

    Good catch about Megan being single, but I don’t think Don is looking for a new mom for Sally, at the end of the day. I still don’t think Don knows who he’s looking for.


    I agree, I thought the wave was sweet.

  408. “I said thank you and I offered you money.” Don’s words to the stranger on the train also sum up his relationship with Megan. Sometimes the ladies man Don isn’t very smooth with women.

  409. I think the one who wanted most to save face was Faye. She was angry at Don because “he put her in that position” and she didn’t make out well, as she is used to doing. As an accomplished professional, she was mortified at being showed up by another woman- a secretary. She didn’t even mention Sally’s plight at the end- all she spoke about was herself. She just wants to marry Don and wants to do all the ‘right’ things in order to get there. I hope he noted this about her.

  410. Leo you’re spot on about comment placement, by the time I find it 23 other great insights have been posted. Argh. Faye seems to unable to communicate outside of her focus group bubble in a real fashion. Perhaps if she ran a GI Joe or Barbie session she could actually to, rather than at, Sally. Pathetic. Megan was part of a single ladies group, wasn’t she? If yes, Woohoo! If this is all we get from Roger n Red then I’m saddened. Too bad Roger has shown no inclination to leave his still in the cradle ‘trollop’ wife. MW never satisfies our primal urges. The main reason why this show rises to the height of true greatness.

  411. I think another thing that’s great about this show’s writing is, it shows how hypocritical society was in the 60s. The chances of these people in their work environment coming across and having meaningful interaction with any person of color is slim to none. At that point in time.

    People were viewed as stereotypes primarily…ad men, women, blacks, war protesters, old people, young people, soldiers, asians, vietnamese, catholics, jews, etc.

    The idea of understanding another person’s point of view was not a widely used cultural concept at that time.

  412. In the final scene with Betty there, Megan is in the background; there’s a trio- Betty, Megan and Don. It’s going to happen!
    What will Joan have? A boy or a girl?

  413. Is it possible that Joan has embezzled from the office and is headed away with the loot on the train scene from next week?

  414. Megan is going to be in Sally’s life, whther as a babysitter or Don’s gf, we shall see.

    Megan would be great for Don and the children, but would Don be good for Megan? No

  415. Loathe Faye, be gone !

  416. Can’t see the Megan thing happening. She’ll excite Don less than Betty did. And she’ll make Roger’s Jane look like Mensa material. He’d be cheating on her within a week.

    I suspect Don and Faye might last till near the end of the season and then Weiner will clear the decks for season 5. Basically, if you’re a mistress/girlfriend of Don Draper’s, you’re not drawing checks past a single season.

    Kinda like the old joke about Lil’ Joe’s GF’s on Bonanza. You knew they’d meet their demise within the hour.

  417. #421 – Agreed! Faye can’t leave fast enough for me. She’s an anachronism and the only MM character I haven’t like at all. She is a 1990’s career girl – not 1965.

    Joan is on the train going to visit hubby at basic training while he gets a weekend pass – and before he goes to Vietnam. That is my guess with the preview of the train scene. She’ll spend the weekend with him – and then really not know whose baby she will be carrying (again, my guess!). It’s difficult to picture Joan pregnant…

  418. I thought it was telling that Faye immediately understood that she had been tested…and failed. Sure, Don didn’t deliberately set up the test but, as in real life, tests and challenges just happen. We all know that Betty is a terrible mother. We know that Don loves his kids, even though he’s depicted as a “typical” 1960s dad who is not “kid-focused.” In the pre-Kramer vs. Kramer days, dads focused more on making money to support the family while the wife was expected to manage the family. So from a 21st Century perspective, Don could be a better father (for instance, I sooo wanted him to explain to Sally WHY she can’t live with him, which is a direct question that she asked.) Without an explanation, she probably assumes that he COULD make it happen if he wanted…he just doesn’t want to (this combined with whatever hateful nonsense Betty has been filling her ear with).

    Anyway, back to the test. Faye is hopeless. She seems to be a nice person basically but she would be just as bad for Sally as Betty is. There were deliberate visual images of the other “Draper women” standing around, some sympathetic, others just clueless. But the only one who passed the test was Megan. She treated Sally with respect and was friendly in a natural way, not the stilted way that Faye spoke to her as if she were addressing a room full of strangers. Secondly, Megan didn’t hesitate: She was the only one (including Don himself) who went straight to the floor on her knees to pick Sally up and hold her. And Sally’s response was totally natural and instinctual. And not only did Megan respond physically but also with what she said. She didn’t just utter some stupid phrases like “There, there, it’ll be all right…blah blah blah.” Or, even worse, “Ok, little girl, you gotta get up now because little ladies don’t act like this, blah blah blah.” NO! As she was hugging her she also let Sally know that she wasn’t a bad child or a strange person for falling down. “I fall down a lot.” Megan related to her and let her know that she’s not alone. That is soo important. I was in tears myself at that point.

    There was a test and Faye failed. Megan passed it big time. She didn’t need to analyze it or contemplate it: she acted like a mother.

  419. Abe and his essay seem to be a reference/throwback to Season Two, when Don was interviewing younger art and copywriting types, that Duck and Roger wanted Sterling Cooper to bring in.

    I always confuse Kurt and Smitty, but didn’t one of them share with Don, a manifesto that a friend at the University of Michigan wrote for Students for a Democratic Society (SDS)?

    I can’t remember if what he showed Don was the Port Huron Statement, but here’s a link to read it, if you haven’t …

    This link is for an article in The Nation, which takes a look at the Statement, 40 years later …

  420. A thought about the use of a Black mugger in the show —

    This article from Time Magazine in December, 1965, reports on the seizure of 209 pounds of pure heroin, whose ultimate destination would have been the streets of New York City, had it not been intercepted by authorities.

    The article mentions that the haul was worth $2,800,000 wholesale and as much as $100 million retail (after cutting and diluting).,9171,842312,00.html

    The Black mugger was likely a heroin addict. I’m not making a racial judgement here. The mugger could have just as easily been a White or a Puerto Rican addict, mugging Joan and Roger, to support his habit.

    In the mid-1960s, there were an estimated 30,000 addicts in New York City, 15,000 to 20,000 of them lived in Harlem.

    The depiction of the mugging was as accurate as the use of the Petula Clark song on the jukebox, when Joyce and Peggy met up with Abe, at PJs.

  421. With the exception of Anna, whom he didn’t sleep with, Don has always fallen hardest for maternal brunettes. Even Rachel Menken with her no-nonsense ways really “saw” him and knew what made him tick. The blondes in his life see him, as he does them, as some sort of prize, as what they are “supposed” to want. Suzanne was the ultimate example of this. Who knows if he’ll end up with Meghan, but Faye is fired because she indeed failed the pop quiz. He is flirting with the idea of like a woman for her brain AND her body, but really Don Draper wants a mommy because his was a whore and the one who raised him was such a bitch. Textbook Madonna Whore complex almost every week.

    Remember the neighbor who babysat and put him to bed? Maternal brunette.

  422. It’s so fun to read all the comments! Every week I am amazed at how MUCH is in each episode. RIP Miss Blankenship. She kept us laughing even after she died. I will miss her and wonder who Don’s next secretary will be. I don’t think it will be Meagan. I don’t think Meagan will be Don’s next love interest either. I am hoping for a Meagan/Joyce match up – though Meagan seemed interested in Stan a couple episodes ago.

    I feel sorry for Sally, I do, but I feel sorry for Betty too. Sally is a handful and is constantly testing and seeing how far she can push her parents. She is confrontational with Betty and manipulative with Don. Betty must be so tired of always being the bad cop. She saw an opportunity to let Don do it for once and she took it. Don put off taking that role as long as he could but eventually he had to be that person, the person who must force his child to behave. He didn’t do so well.

    I wonder what kind of a mother Joan will be.

  423. The “black” mugger may be a veiled reference to the “Watts riots” that took place in August 1965.
    Notice how the perp forcibly “shoulder-whipped” Roger as he fled. I don’t agree that Don is looking for a “Betty” replacement … and that Meghan although endowed with “nurturing” skills is suitable. His relationship with Faye suits him well… she is smart, hot and selfish … very compatible if you ask me. As for Joan getting “knocked-up,” the train ride in the trailer may be related to her visit to a “doctor in New Jersey.”

  424. Gloves were on their way out, but not quite. They’ll be gone very soon, though, except for the elderly who won’t change their ways. I used to love trying on my mother’s elbow length evening gloves.

  425. I had a dress like Sally’s. It was called a “shift ” or a “float” dress, although Sally’s was more form-fitting. After a while I used it as a bathing suit cover-up. They were that A-line. I don’t remember girls wearing tiny versions of mom’s straight cut shifts. (Memory, however, is faulty!)

    I’m still wondering if it is accurate that girls on the East Coast wore Salt Water Sandals in 1965 (Sally is definitely wearing Salt Water Sandals — it’s a brand with a very identifiable style of criss-cross straps — they haven’t changed since the late 40s). I don’t remember seeing them before I visited California in the 70s. According to my California-born friends, every girl had them. I think I would remember them. Perhaps they did carry them at Best & Co, which is no doubt where many of Sally’s clothes come from.

  426. #313 (and others) good comments re Megan. She made me think of a updated version of Joan. She knows what to say and what to do in an emergency (at least Peggy didn’t faint this time). But she’s warmer and more people-aware than Joan — she can be. Joan is perhaps a decade older and really had to elbow her way up (and may have let other body parts distract so she could use those elbows) to her (albeit limited) status. For Sally’s sake, thank goodness she was there. I sure wish she had been available to babysit instead of Faye. I’m not sure I’m rooting for a romance with Don. He’d be better off not dipping his pen in company ink IMO.

  427. Let’s see – the theme of the episode is feminine rights. Most seem to think the following:

    – soft, caring, nuturing, feminine, loves children, compassionate, motherly, beautiful, non-threatening=Meagan, the perfect wife for Don
    – driven, intelligent, sexual, choses career over domesticity, strong, confident, threatening=Faye, Don MUST be finished with her

    All in all, it seems the same old stereotypes of what society sees as good and bad qualities in women remain the same.

  428. Joanie and Roger – Joan got her engagement ring stolen. How is she going to explain this to Dr. Rapey? Isn’t she going to see him at basic training? I think Roger will buy her a replacement ring (exact) and giving it to her will be symbolic and painful for both of them. Maybe his child bride will find the receipt (people like to get caught, especially people like Roger) and he’ll finally get to be with Joanie. I can dream people..I can dream!

  429. Yeah, it pissed me off too that Weiner had to use a Black mugger. Hey MW racism is real and you’re playing into it. At least balance it a little with more Carla or a new Black employee for SCDP. But no not a single minority employee at the agency. And I’m sure they’ve had minority applicants. Maybe Weiner could show what they do with those applications; the old circular file. Is SCDP any better than the auto parts firm that doesn’t hire “Negroes”? Pretty disgusting stuff.

    Also, Betty looked very calm in this episode. I think “mother’s little helpers” were becoming popular then. Valium?

  430. Oh me too #434, Roger really and truly loves Joan, and she will always really care for him. Please don’t be pregnant Joanie, Weiner don’t do that too us, it’s banal and we know you can come up with something earth shattering. From the previews for next week, doesn’t look like a funny episode…..RIP Ida….I hardly knew ya.

  431. Interesting that Ms. Blankenship said a few episodes ago “I was blind and now I see” from “Amazing Grace,” a song so commonly sung at funerals, and now she’s dead.

    I also found it interesting how attentive and upset Bert Cooper was after she died, but I don’t remember them interacting at all this season.

  432. #323 Ada, you are probably right about Sally’s dress. I wore Florence Eiseman as a child–it was my mother’s go-to brand for special events. Another reason her dress may not be a Lilly Pulitzer dress is Lilly’s prints were typically tighter prints, with less white space between the color. Perhaps Project Rungay will sort this out!

  433. Someone a while back commented that it was hard to imagine Roger and Joan being in the mood so soon after the mugging. I just saw it as comfort sex.

  434. #412 & 434: Joan’s ring
    Yes the point was to strip it from her and yes Roger will replace it–so it’s HIS ring.
    But then that’s a little too facile–I mean, if we could think this stuff up, we’d be getting Emmys.

  435. I think people are reading a little too much into Megan’s role in Don’s life…as #313 pointed out, Megan was the only one who actually knelt down and helped Sally out (maybe the others were too scared of Don to do so?) In my own life, I am not really an A+ “people person” but kids respond well to me, and I think it’s often because I make the effort to squat or take a knee next them so we are on the same eye level. Also, found it interesting that Sally took comfort from Megan, the brunette — affection she did not receive from either of Don’s blondes (Betty or Faye.)

  436. This episode has a great line about how women are expected to be merely bowls for the soup that is men. Women are defined by how well they support men.

    So, we have smart, beautiful, interesting Megan, and all anybody can comment on is how she would be great for Don.

  437. #437 — “I also found it interesting how attentive and upset Bert Cooper was after she died, but I donโ€™t remember them interacting at all this season.”

    Bert hasn’t been on much this season; the interaction they had in this episode (re: the crossword puzzle) indicated a level of comfort, an informality, that reminded me of an old married couple.

  438. Megan’s response to Sally reminded me so strongly of Suzanne Ferrell. She’s so kind, checking up on Allison after she left the Ponds focus group, then in last night’s episode, telling Sally that she falls down too and gave her a long hug and rubbed her back to comfort her. I wonder how long it’s been since anyone hugged that child.

    I’d love to see her with Don – she’s beautiful, poised and discreet, which he wants in a wife, and maybe some of her kindness would soften up his rough edges. Unfortunately, after his screw up with Allison, I don’t think he’d look her way. Your loss, Don!

  439. The fact that Peggy just couldn’t forget Abe makes me think there’s something there.

    @412 & 434- Roger replacing the ring makes sense to me.

  440. @443 Dirigentin-That goes back to what people were saying on a previous post about work husbands/wives. Mrs. Blankenship was supposed to have been Cooper’s secretary for decades, so having that sort of comfort makes sense.

  441. Ida had been Bert Cooper’s secretary, called out of retirement by Joan to replace Alison after she stormed out. That explains the comfort level, his distress at her loss, and why he knows she has a niece.

    Don is in danger of becoming Murphy Brown with the secretary of the week turnover.

  442. #444
    You’ve been paying attention–how long since any adult has gone down to Sally’s level and literally met her there–instead of demand that she rise to meet them? Grandpa Gene.

    Don let her sleep in the upper bunk, goodnighted her face to face and played house the next morning, and then went back to Because I’m The Dad at the office.

    As for Megan and Don–I can see her taking one look at Don’s life and asking Alison if there are any vacancies at Cosmo.

  443. Megan sure looked smitten with Don when she touched his shoulder and said he should take the rest of the day off.

  444. #444. #448: Actually, Faye had crouched down to Sally’s level when she spoke to earlier in Don’ office (before taking her home). It didn’t help much, though, because she had no idea how to speak to Sally nor what to say.

  445. Abe’s attitude towards the women’s movement is right on target. The second wave was greatly influenced by the treatment women received at the hands of “progressive” men mainly involved in civil rights and anti-war activities. Women were good for sex and menial labor. Men had all the “great ideas” and “organization skills.” Yeah, right. There was also a lot of physical abuse amongst the ranks. There were plenty of supportive “feminist men” who beat up wives and girlfriends.

    Here’s a couple of personal examples of how feminists were regarded by so-called liberal or progressive men. A friend of mine married a creep who told me that the problem with the women’s movement was that it wasn’t led by men. We needed to lighten up and let them take control. The marriage didn’t last long. .

    I was in a CR group for a couple years. I don’t remember why, but this guy, some of us knew from high school, was an invited guest to discuss feminism with us. He’d come back from college a devoted communist–not a generic communist, but one attached to a party. He gave us an entire lecture on how feminists were undermining the communist revolution by selfishly putting our issues before “the peoples’ issues.” So we were all polite to him, and never talked to him again. Of course, this mirrored the real tension between feminism and Marxism. And in my town, admitting to being a communist to start with was like admitting you ate babies for breakfast.

    Re; Peggy’s and Abe: Peggy’s reaction to Abe’s piggish remarks at the bar was what MS Magazine used to call “click.” It’s a defining moment. Often it’s those small moments that count.

  446. #451: Yeah, except it’s more complicated than that. Abe was condescending and uncomprehending about the opression of women, but he IS politically aware and he instilled a nascent awareness in Peggy as well. She tells Abe, she’s “not political”–a lot of us say that–but I doubt before her meeting with Abe that she would have brought up a client’s political/social track record, as in the case of Fillmore auto parts. As Abe said, “everyone is political whether they acknowledge it or not,” and “the click” that Peggy received isn’t just that Abe is a chauvanist, but that overcoming opression as a woman also demands becoming (actively) political. It’s a question of taking the knowledge she received from Abe and transferring it to her own issues.

  447. # 452: Yes. And actually he wasn’t wrong when he said “But they’re not being shot to stop them from voting”. There’s a disproportion there. It’s just that he had evidently given no thought whatsoever to women’s inequality: his scoffing at the idea of a Women’s March was amazingly clueless to those of us living in the future. Peggy clearly has not been to college, as someone remarked. It’s interesting that she just wanted to walk away. At work, she’s the one who usually wants to follow conversations further. But I guess it’s more that she now can’t imagine ever havong a relationship with Abe since he’s shown himself to be so i sensitive, so why continue the conversation? But i imagine she will continue it, with someone else if not Abe.

  448. I’d agree that the African-American struggle for Civil Rights was more urgent than the feminist issues Peggy raised. But does that mean that women should have kept their mouths shut until absolute racial equality was achieved? We’d still be waiting!

    Not to mention all the non-White women, who had all those issues to deal with.

    Peggy is very bright but never had the luxury of late-night discussions with other eager college kids, solving the problems of the world. She hasn’t been exposed to the radical thinkers of the day. She thought Abe was attacking her when he really wanted to debate.

    I hope they continue to meet. And argue. Both of them have a lot to learn. I don’t see Peggy quitting her job to be a full-time radical; she’s too working class. But new ideas will affect her. Maybe she should offer Abe a job!

  449. not Bridget: You sound as if you think women have equal rights now! The Equal Rights Amendment was never passed in this country although it was tried several times. Yes things have changed a great deal since 1965. But, as a mentioned before, societal attitudes toward women have stubbornly stayed the same. Notice how many people point out the traditional, nurturing qualities of Megan in a positive light and how many point out the progressive, intellectual qualities of Faye in a negative light. As the old saying goes, the more things change, the more they stay the same. Unfortunate but true.

  450. #455: And on that note, what absolutely slays me is that women in this country were not granted the right to vote until 1919. Think about that…we’ve only had the right to vote, a basic tenant of citizenship, for barely 100 years?!! In America, the supposed land of the free? It boggles the mind. And I’m just talking about women here, not minority groups.

    I don’t like Faye as a character, but she was absolutely right in refusing to do Don’s parenting work or heavy emotional lifting for him and to call him on it. Not every woman is good with children, and even though it seemed a little anachronistic to me, I tip my hat to MM for even bringing up the issue at all. Whether or not Don was “testing” Faye or auditioning her as a potential step mother is open to debate; I personally think it was more like Don’s “soup” was running amok when confronted with Sally’s misery and he just assumed that being a woman, and a psychologist at that she’d “naturally” be able to cope. Not true.

  451. #456-SFCaramia

    I also thought that Don went to Faye for help w Sally bc of her psych background. Don had felt comfortable enough w her to open up about himself, his divorce, and his children.

    To me, it seemed a natural reaction (considering he doesn’t know how to fix it himself, obviously) to turn to Faye.

  452. It’s amazing how children can pick up their parents traits. Yesterday Sally, just like her dad in past episodes became an opportunist. Given the freedom to walk home by herself she thought about how unhappy she was and how much she’d rather be with her daddy the kid bounced! It reminded me of how Don took the chance to become Don. How he made his move to get into the advertising biz and even how the new firm was formed. Even at a young age she’s also displaying some of her dad’s skills of manipulation. And let’s face it, mom did seem to mind Sally’s actions one bit. It would not surprise me if the kid finally got her way to be with Don much to his displeasure.

  453. My question is: What’s going to happen next week? In the previews, everyone was looking very upset. I’m guessing Lucky Strike dumps SCDP, and everyone at the agency is panicking.

  454. P.S. Good luck with leaving your job, Bunny! I hope you end up getting a spot in the reference department with me. Then we can take a ride on the Mexican Avenue bus. ๐Ÿ™‚

  455. I think much of Faye’s awkwardness w/Sally was due to her extreme nervousness about the whole situation…she just started having her fling w/Don, had wondered in the back of her mind if she would ever meet his kids (so she’s not completely disinterested), and she just was thrown into this crisis that was so totally unexpected — and literally hours after getting out of bed w/Don…it was a perfect storm! And I don’t think Don was testing her…when he said it didn’t matter, I believed him…I don’t think he was judging her in the slightest as mommy material. If she blew it at all, it wasn’t b/c she wasn’t better w/Sally, it was b/c she practically had a nervous breakdown about it and just generally lost her cool. But, I actually think Don seemed quite empathetic towards her.

  456. NotBridget said:
    Peggy is very bright but never had the luxury of late-night discussions with other eager college kids, solving the problems of the world. She hasnโ€™t been exposed to the radical thinkers of the day. She thought Abe was attacking her when he really wanted to debate.

    Abe is a Jewish guy, who, I”m guessing, we’re meant to understand as having likely grown up in a (leftist) political household where a certain type of nuanced, pointed, passionate discussion is highly developed and valued. And not taken personally. And being good at this is seen as evidence of your personal worth and penetrating intellect. Where’d he go to HS, Townsend Harris? Then City College? Pegs is a smartie, but she doesn’t have that pedigree, as you said (NotB..).

    And yeah, that preview of next week. I can only think, also, that it has to do with Lucky Strike as well. I lookd up when cigarette advertising was banned from TV, but that happened in 69 or 70 or thereabouts. Not 65 or 66. We just have to wait and see, don’t we…

  457. Faye should have refused to help Don out with Sally. If she were really confident in who she was and as independent as she claims to be, she would have said, “I can’t. I’m not good with kids.” (In fact, she tried to do this, but waffled) The truth of the matter is that she is hooked on Don and was willing to try to bend herself to be what she thinks he wants her (and expects her) to be. Just like women have been doing probably since the beginning of time.

  458. Re. Peggy and Abe, civil rights and women’s rights.

    Stokley Carmichael famously said, “the only position for women in SNCC is prone.” That ugly quote immediately came to mind during the bar scene.

    For those who are interested in what women in the movement had to say about this in 1964-65, the link below will take you to memos written by two women activists in that time period.

  459. If women in this day and age are still trying to mold themselves into what they think a man wants then that is their own fault. What were all the demonstrations about? Wasn’t it “I’m a human being and I am NOT defined by what my husband or some man think I am: chef/babymaker/damsel that needs saving.” Faye is not a bad person for choosing to concentrate on her career, but being painfully awkward with children.
    She’s admirable and a pioneer of sorts. Don told her as much. Since he seems as clueless as Betts with what darling Sally’s needs are, he won’t notice that a nurturing attitude like Megan demostrated toward his daughter is exactly the RX for darling Sally. Women assume that men don’t get it, or whatnot. Its not as simple as “Megan is a mommy type so she must be good. And Faye is a cold career obsessed type so she must be bad”. Most men deserve more credit, and are far more enlightened.

    • tilden, are you really suggesting that there is no cultural, institutional, or social sexism, and women are just choosing to remain in the patriarchy? Really?

  460. Did anyone else think “hobo code” with Sally traveling between trains to get to Don?

  461. I didn’t say that at all, Deb. I specifically stated something about what women still(?) do what annreeder implies in their romantic entanglements. Which surprises me. The patriarchy at work, corporations is still dominannt and women remain oppressed. What; women now earn 73 cents for every dollar their male counterparts do. The ERA never passed and it remains a man’s world, unfortunately. I figure that the patriarch archetype does not exist in terms of intimate relationships any longer. Women don’t NEED a man financially anymore and I think don’t have to play the game of being a guy’s fantasy in order to keep him interested. Aren’t women confident enough in themselves to think something like ” I will be accepted for what I am, not for what he thinks I am. I sure do. I married one, and have plenty of female friends who couldn’t give two farts about serving a guy’s every needs.

    • tilden, the patriarchy permeates social and intimate relationships, and it also still permeates our upbringing, and therefore the unconscious choices we make in our relationships. The work goes on!

  462. #460 Megan. Thanks! It went well, although I was nervous as a cat. And yes, my new job is in a reference department of sorts. So we should take that bus.

  463. Appreciated this conversation and just throwing this question out there in the context of having two young daughters (21 and 18) who don’t watch the show and don’t get my obsession, does their demographic watch Mad Men? Seems like these past/present feminist issues impact them so much yet they don’t get it? Just curious ….

  464. I had a thought about if/when Sal comes back.

    In Season Three, I think, he expressed frustration about the trend in advertising toward the use of photography in print ads and the decline of line art work and illustrations (his forte).

    It would be interesting for Sal to come back and work as a director of filmed commercials, since TV ads are becoming a bigger part of the agency’s business.

    In The Rejected, we met Joyce and learn that Joyce is an assistant photo editor at Life. I’d like for Joyce to join SCDP’s art department, specializing in the photographic aspects of print ads, for the agency.

    She’s already in the building and I’m sure Peggy would like having a new pal around the shop.

    Of course, Sal’s return would cause problems, what with Lee Garner, Jr. and the Lucky Strike account, but I’ll bet the writers could find some kind of workaround for that.

  465. Catcher in the Rye. Saw book on screen during first viewing of recent episode. Cannot see it on review. Basketeers, please help me out here.

    Thank you.

  466. Faye’s standard response is to give a performance – we’ve never seen her be herself and take that smirking mask off, not even during sex. Being faced with Sally caught her off-guard, and we saw her show genuine emotion for the first time.

  467. # 263 I live in Boston (and was also there in the 1960’s) and no, what they did was a “Kennedy” accent, not a Boston accent. Only the Kennedy’s talked like that – no one else did. It is a frequently made mistake in TV, film.

  468. Why is every one dumping on Faye? So she’s not a breeder? Big deal. Her rejection of traditional feminine role model values is quite attractive to many men … especially divorced men like DD … who might just happen to like women hot, smart and independent. I loved the line where after Drape says “Jesus … what a mess this is … ” Faye wrapped in his arms whispers kitten-ishly “some of it is good.” I’ll say. Go Faye! And go Drape!

  469. #465 Jzzy55

    That wasn’t what Abe was saying and Peggy got it on the head. #464 was right on the money and Stokely was just saying out loud what a majority of people felt, women had no issues worth considering changing the society for.
    At that time. There were other folks bringing this disparity of focus at that time, but an ignored group of folks.

    Abe was clueless to what he was saying and the writers wrapped it up in the nutshell that is Peggy’s retort to Abe.

  470. I watched the ep later this week and a few things popped into my mind:

    Mrs(?) Blankenship was the poster girl for how one lived and died…at your job. Think about Roger’s scene with Joan afterward, worrying about dying that way; after all, he’d died at work twice already!
    Unlike today, the expectation that you worked until a certain golden moment then idled away your retirement was an unusual opportunity. Even when you factor in Roger’s wealth, in that he certainly could afford to while away his days at the country club or the golf course, if he’d wished.

  471. No one’s come up with a link to what brand of rum Don had in his apartment!

    I’m sure it wasn’t Mrs. Butterworth’s.

  472. Another thing rewatching the show that stuck with me, Megan’s response to Joan when Joan asked why Sally was in Don’s office…Megan said Sally was ‘visiting’. That was an example of tamping down a potential situation where Megan’s sensitive nature was on display and protecting an unfortunate, imo

    I noticed Don’s use of the standard ‘authority’ figure posture towards Sally when he asked *Dr* Faye to talk to Sally, ‘…Sally, this is Dr. Faye…’
    It didn’t work, partly because of her age, and I’m thinking partly because Sally has had some time talking with women ‘doctors’, vis a vis the school psychiatrist.

    I can’t wait to find out what sort of outcome we’ll see from the psychiatrist’s visits.

  473. #476 I think people are reacting to Faye’s personality. Whether it’s the actress’ abilities or the character as she’s written, she’s someone that doesn’t ring true. I really think the 2 times in the ep, where she’s standing up and speaking to Sally in such a stilted manner. It was clear that she doesn’t do kids and it’s a good thing that she’s self aware enough to not have caved in to societal expectations then and had children.
    That said, there would be pressure and a sensitivity that you were doing something out of the ordinary, especially as an otherwise eligible seeming woman to not have children. That prickliness comes out in Faye’s manner from time to time.

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