Last night’s episode blew me away, but it’s been pointed out by TLo that that scene with Roger and Joan enjoying their Waldorf time with the mink stole completely throws off the later glimpse of their affair in‘ Babylon’ in 1960, where we get the sense that they’ve only been seeing each other for a year. They are correct in pointing out this discrepancy, and I think I have an answer for it: Roger’s brain has been thoroughly pickled, and his memories, that he is desperately trying to pen for his book, have become as muddled as a kindergartner’s finger painting.
I do NOT think that Roger and Joan were having their affair in the 50′s, I think that Roger may have wanted to remember it that way, but for all we know, he may have been with Mona in that hotel room. He mentioned to Don, the furrier, that this was a ‘getting to know you’ gift, and if this was, say 1950, he could have been mixing up events in his mind. He was probably married to Mona already at this time, but I really don’t think he was with Joan yet. Roger had said in another early episode that he liked red heads with big bosoms, and this may have just been another red head he had slept with. In ‘The ‘Mountain King’ in 1962, Joan tells Greg that she’s been working at SC for 9 years, which means she started at SC in 1953. In the hotel scene, “Joan” is as giddy and squeaky as a Marilyn Monroe wannabe, and this could all be Roger’s imagination cranking things up. Her comment about ‘when she’s married’ could have been something Mona said to him when they were dating.
Of course, I may be completely wrong, and MW may be playing with us here, but i do I think Roger is falling apart mentally as well as physically and Don is following in his footsteps. It is a sad thing to witness.
150 Responses to “Roger and Joan in the Early 50′s? I think not.”
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I don't think it's out of the question that Joan and Roger had an on-again-off-again relationship. In the flashback scene, she talks about marriage so it's possible she cut things off after she found out Roger was married (OR she figured out he wasn't going to leave Mona).
Thought I don't remember how old she she, last season Roger and Mona's daughter — in her early 20's? — got married. In 1950, she would have been at least a toddler. I would imagine that Roger and Mona would have been married when she was born.
I agree with Rebecca. Also, sometimes shows will have small continuity errors that the most die-hard fans will notice, but the average casual viewers will not. I really don't think they'd show us a flash back of them together in 1950 and have it be a manifestation of Roger's drunken memory without telling us, that would be very, very out of left field. Also, just b/c he drinks a lot and may be a high-functioning alchoholic, aside from forgetting what he did when he blacks out, I don't think he is to the point where he forgets huge chunks of his life, like who he was buying a fur for when he met Don. I could be wrong, but I doubt he buys furs for every woman he's messed around with.
Kalapuapony given that Roger's daughter was 19 or 20 in 1963 she was well past being a toddler at the time of the flashback, she was either in a pre-teen or tween (to use modern terminology) or a teenager during the events of that show.
Do we know if Joan is even *working* for Roger when this scene is shown? Might he have met her elsewhere and she joined SC later at his urging?
I guess I'll wait to hear how MW helps guide us through this!
wait a minute here – Don has to be back from Korea, has to have been in California and found out by Anna, then moved to NYC and been at the furrier for awhile. Its impossible for this event to have occured before 1955 at the earliest, it seems to me.
My 2c:
–My huz and I think the scene w/Joan and Roger was probably 1955, not as early as 1950. That would fit with her being at the firm 9 years–there's no reason that the affair needed to start when she began w/the firm. She had to work her way up to office manager too I'd imagine…Perhaps the affair helped that along more quickly, though her abilities and competence are absolutely without question.
–If the daughter was married in 1963, she was probably born about 1940 or so. If she went to college first, 1940 would fit. Roger and Mona may have married before he shipped out to war.
–But yes, Roger and Don are falling apart looking like old dinosaurs. Pryce sees a need to prepare a new generation, which brings competition of Ken to Pete's door. And Pete set terms right off the bat. Every one's a pretty tough cookie this week, I thought. Except Roger and Don on their downward spirals.
It caught me by surprise too but I'm sure Matt Weiner already has a firm backstory in his head. I don't know if he would purposefully mislead the audience by showing flashbacks that weren't true.
In any case, more flashbacks with '50s!Joan and Roger please.
I do think the flashbacks were to 1955. The ad in the fur shop had Betty in it as the model, and they married in 1953. Midge, in the first episode, mused that the tobacco issues had first come up for Don 5 years earlier, so that was probably when he first started working there.
I can believe Joan and Roger were on again, off again, and that he had been wooing her (or at least heavily flirting) for a while. She was looking for a husband, after all, and unlike Jane, she wasn't going to break up an existing marriage to snag one. But she couldn't quite avoid having him be her rebound between beaux (e.g. Paul, who would have started there not long after that).
I doubt it was any earlier than that; it would have been pushing it, by a lot, to have these actors play more than 10 years younger.
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I think it's possible that Joan started working at SC in '53. We know from the ad in the fur shop that Don knows Betty—they may even be engaged or newly married. And we know that in early 1965, Sally is 10, but about to turn 11 later in the spring (from her warm weather birthday party in Season 1)–so she was born in '54. And we know that Joan was born in 1931 (from the ep in Season 2 where Kinsey posts her DL on the bulletin board) and is 31 in 1962.
So in 1953, it's very possible that Joan is a new SC employee, having graduated from college (which we also know from Season 1–sorry I can't remember the specific episode names) at 22.
And it can't be 1950, because Don/Dick was in the Korean War, and that war didn't even start until 1950.
I agree that Roger and Joan could have had a very on/off again affair for many years and was hurt that Roger wouldn't leave Mona for her (and then did leave her for silly Jane)—so I'm still a believer!
I seem to remember Don saying in the first season (1960) that he'd been at SC for 7 years. I assumed that the flashback took place in 1953.
I don't think the memory Roger flashes back to is fabricated; I think it was Joan. It doesn't really do much for the plot at all if the flashback is fabricated inside his mind. That's a little too deep, even for "Mad Men". An on-again, off-again relationship is more likely.
Roger and Mona had been married for something like 25 years when they got divorced in 1962, so they had been married around 15 years in 1953.
My one issue with the flashback is this: Don's smile in the elevator, indicating he had conned Roger into hiring him. Wasn't it Roger's flashback? Roger wouldn't have noticed that smile, and therefore wouldn't have had a memory of it from his perspective, right? If it was Don's flashback, then this is a moot point; if it's Roger's, that's a bit of a slip-up, I think.
Slightly o/t, but I've never seen Joan's cavorting with Roger to be either a hope to lure him from Mona, or a play for career advancement. I've always seen it as a way to spice up her life, have fun, and get a few office perks along the way. She's not exactly using him, because she genuinely cares about Roger and values his friendship. However she's never asked him for anything – she's never had to.
I think her career would have gone almost exactly the same without the affair. She's got what she has on her considerable merits (and yes, her assets). If she wanted something tangible out of the relationship with Roger, believe me, she'd be more than office manager. Despite her relationship with the boss, she didn't sleep her way to the middle.
Joan did not say, "When I'm married"; she said, "When I wear it".
"My one issue with the flashback is this: Don’s smile in the elevator, indicating he had conned Roger into hiring him. Wasn’t it Roger’s flashback? Roger wouldn’t have noticed that smile, and therefore wouldn’t have had a memory of it from his perspective, right? If it was Don’s flashback, then this is a moot point; if it’s Roger’s, that’s a bit of a slip-up, I think."
I don't think it was anyone's flashback. It was just a flashback to give some perspective on what was going on in the present. Regardless, I don't quite understand what Joan and Roger in the hotel room had to do with anything but maybe that will be cleared up later.
I agree with the circa 1955 timestamp. The Korean War started in 1950, so Don/Dick would have been in Korea or back at home farm about to enlist. As to Joan and Roger's affair, we were led to believe that as of "Babylon," the affair has been around for 1 year because of Roger's comment about being miserable a year ago or something. I think the easiest way to figure out a logical explanation to the chronology is that Roger was probably just referring the their affair this time around. From all their subsequent interaction, it does seem Joan and Roger had been off-an-on for most of her time at SC. She probably broke it off every time she had a steady, and, like the other posts, I agree that the previous boyfriend was Paul.
The show does have some minor continuity issues with regard to chronology. The biggest one was probably Adam Whitman's age/appearance in the flashbacks and in the photo dated 1944. The other one being how Betty managed to graduate from college, modeled in Italy, moved and modeled in Manhattan, met and married Don, all by age 21 in 1953. My guess is that Betty only attended college for two years, but I don't know if Bryn Mawr gave two-year degrees. Or she uses the term "graduated" liberally meaning she done enough at the school to get on the marriage route (I'm thinking like Jackie Kennedy's time at Vasaar).
I agree, B. Cooper. I think Joan had a basic code in mind of, it's okay to screw around with a married man, but don't ask him to leave his wife for you. This was probably for her own protection, not wanting to be in the middle of a messy divorce/stepparent situation, and also knowing that a man who screws around on one wife will almost certainly screw around on the next one.
However, Jane's timing was impeccable. Not only did she wait until Roger's daughter was out of the house, but his heart attack has made him more reluctant to fool around (figuring, I suppose, that he had his first heart attack when he was with a mistress, so it must be bad juju or something). By then, though, Joan had already cast her lot with Dr. Lunkhead.
Empress Rouge: I actually called the registrar's office at Bryn Mawr the other day (I was re-reading some old posts discussing whether Betty had lied to Glen about her age) and was told that Bryn Mawr does not (and never has) given two-year degrees, not even in the 1950's (I specifically asked about that). Since the question was so off-the-wallk, I told the registrar why I was asking it, and she seemed tickled to hear the reason.
Slightly o/t, but I’ve never seen Joan’s cavorting with Roger to be either a hope to lure him from Mona, or a play for career advancement. I’ve always seen it as a way to spice up her life, have fun, and get a few office perks along the way. She’s not exactly using him, because she genuinely cares about Roger and values his friendship. However she’s never asked him for anything – she’s never had to.
I think the line between asking for something, and deliberately behaving in a way that ensures you'll get something without having to say the words is very fine and very blurry. The only thing missing from Joan's performance in the hotel room was a pole and lights. And we've seen her deliberately Marilyn over other men with the goal of getting a free meal.
I think she came to care for Roger, but I don't think she would have begun the affair without the expectation that she would get something tangible out of it, like a few expensive gifts and a bunch of fancy room-service champagne lunches.
When we saw Roger re-hiring Jane after she was fired, I think it was clear that he was doing so for personal reasons. That makes me believe we can't rule out that Joan's advancement was influenced in the same manner.
Now, I'm not saying that Joan is bad at her job, or couldn't possibly have risen without Roger's sexual interest in her, but it certainly seems to me that it's at least as likely as not.
The flashbacks definitely messed with "my" chronology. I could see Roger & Joan getting together that far back if they conducted an off & on affair. Did it go through a long "off" period until the year or so before the show began?
However, I don't think Don & Betty had married yet. Didn't Roger reminisce about how they looked like the couple on the top of a wedding cake? I still think the SC job enabled that marriage; Don couldn't support a family as well, just working at the furrier.
But we were also told that Freddie discovered Don first. Hmmmm….
Perhaps we'll be given more flashbacks this season to counteract the rather grim character trajectories of Roger & Don. Although I'm really hoping for a better future. For Don, at least. And even Betty, who had a reason to be angry this time! Well, I'm sorry for the kids. Too bad about the brunch.
#16 Thanks for that info! It's been bugging me for a long time. On one hand, from what we know of the real life Bryn Mawr, it doesn't seem like a place that ever gave two-year degrees. But knowing our fictional Betty Francis, she doesn't seem like the kind of girl who would treat college as anything but a finishing school to catch a husband. Lots of people have mentioned BM's commitment to NOT being such a school (think "Mona Lisa Smile"'s portrayal of Wellesley), but I don't think Betty chose to go there for its academic reputation. I figured because it was the only Seven Sister in Pennsylvania and kept her close to home on the Main Line.
In AMC's "An Inside Look" (you know, the tiny morsel of introspection of the last episode), Jon Hamm states that Don rose to his position at Sterling Cooper in "5 years". We can assume we mean the position we see in the pilot, which would make the flashback in 1955. This would also explain the fact that Sterling's hair is grey/white and not brown (someone asked if he was born white-haired, ha ha) – sometimes people just go grey very quickly, and then white not too long after that.
In regards to Joan and Roger, I've always assumed that it was on-again, off-again, just because of who Joan was pre-marriage. She was a girl who liked to have fun and not very naiive. We see her in 5G pick up men who would not be marriage material, but she mentions in Babylon of how she knows she will find a more "permanent solution" soon. I'm not sure whether Paul was in the 1st or 2nd category, but either way we know where Roger was. She probably ebbed and flowed in his direction (like a lot of people do when the chemistry is bonkers but the logistics aren't right) between their first tryst and (hopefully not for the sake of us Joan/Roger shippers) their last.
It's 1955. as everyone points out , all of the clues add up. Really enjoyed the flashbacks of Don since I speculated on another thread that Don got hired at SC through contact with them at the furrier's. They also explain how Don went from a car salesman to writing copy at the furrier…he was really a salesman who wrote copy too.
This episode really intrigued me b/c I always assumed that Roger & Joan's affair was short lived & certainly not an on again off again relationship of between 8 to 10 years. I found myself doing the math again with these characters while I was watching the episode. Betty is in the photo in the fur shop. We know the Drapers met while he worked at the fur shop. We also know they married in 1953, and I assumed it was Spring 1953, after his Valentine's divorce from Anna. Joan was 31 in the second season (1962). Her birthday is Febrruary 24, 1931. Paul copied her license and posted it in the breakroom for all to see during the episode Flight 1. Assuming she started at Sterling Cooper right out of college (May or June 1953), this would be exactly the time that Roger is remembering in his flashback except when exactly did Don and Betty marry? Roger went to their wedding b/c he told Bert in a Season 3 episdoe about how Mona commented on the way they looked at their wedding.
This flashback cannot be 1955 b/c Roger went to their wedding, which took place in 1953. Sally was born in 1954.
#23 – Roger was not at their wedding. Mona commented that Don and Betty looked like the couple on top of a wedding cake, i.e. they look like the ideal couple and wasn't specifically referring to Don and Betty's wedding. Betty met Roger and Mona for the first time in 1960 at the beginning of "Ladies Room" when they all went out to dinner. Maybe Roger had seen Betty before (in photos Don might have kept at the office) but the commentary specifically says that it is Betty's first time meeting the Sterlings, and she talks about her first impressions of them after they come home.
Bryn Mawr definitely never gave two year degrees. But I don't think it's at all odd that Betty went there. For all her faults, being stupid isn't one of them. I imagine she went to a good private girls' school on the Main Line (and there are lots of them) Going to a Seven Sisters college would have been expected of someone with her upbringing, money and intellect. My mother went to Bryn Mawr, and she had no particular career yearnings. She was just a smart, well-educated girl from a well-off family, and that's what you DID, especially back then.
(BTW, Jackie Kennedy never claimed she graduated from Vassar — she spent 2 years at Vassar and then transferred to George Washington and graduated from there.)
I wasn't particularly surprised that the Roger-Joan relationship went back to her earliest days at SC, and I do think it's been an on-again/ off-again relationship while Joan looked for Mr Right. (Obviously Paul Kinsey snuck in there somewhere.) I don't think Joan ever saw herself settling for a "re-tread" which is why she never mistook Roger's affections for a path to marriage.
Don DEFINITELY scammed Roger into thinking he'd hired him. I was kind of skeeved out by that. I always assured (hoped?) that Don's talents were so obvious that Roger (or someone) saw the spark and took a chance on him. But honestly, nothing we saw creatively from young Don looked much better than what Jane's cousin showed up with. So, I guess somewhere along the way Don actually learned something about the craft! That being the case, he must have REALLY felt like a fraud for the first few years at SC, which puts into perspective that teasing from Midge in "Smoke."
Did Roger say that he was at their wedding or just make the comment that D and B looked like the couple on top of the wedding cake?
And I've had issues with Betty's age, as well, but thought when I saw the episode in Season 1 (where she babysits for Glenn) that she lied to him about her age because she wanted to make it very clear (out of vanity) that she's much younger than his mom, whom he says is 32. So she doesn't have to necessarily be 21 in 1953, she could have been 23 or 24.
sorry, Empress Rouge—I was typing while your entry was posting……
I agree–Roger wasn't at their wedding.
I like the idea that Roger is putting Joan's face on whoever it was he was with in that hotel room in 1954-1955. It would say a lot about how much she really means to him. But that would kill the most poignant thing about the flashback: Joan saying that whenever she puts on the fur she'll remember everything about this night. We then cut back to 1965 Roger, looking pensive in the extreme, and it's clear that he's the one who still remembers everything about that night.
Come on, people, a first night with Joan is something nobody would ever confuse with anything else, especially not Roger, no matter how pickled his brain.
#25 This episode and this thread really cleared up some stuff we were discussing in the "I wonder" thread, especially Don's start date.
I remember reading in some biographies that although Jackie never claimed to have graduated from Vasaar, during the 1960 Kennedy campaign, Jackie's academic records at Vasaar got "lost." I'll have to reread, but it was implied the campaign at least wanted people to believe Jackie graduated from Vasaar.
#27 – No problem.
I thought (and commented over at TLo) immediately that there had to be at least two phases to Roger and Joan. The flashback showed the younger, more naive Joan, who probably thought she'd might get Roger away from Mona. Somewhere along the line she realized he wasn't going to dump the wife, so she dumped him instead and began looking for a husband. The dalliance with Kinsey was more in "husband-hunting" mode, but probably with an eye to causing a bit of jealousy in Roger (I have to believe their spark was there from the start). Roger likely started the affair again in '58 or '59, in no small part because Joan was proving herself to be so perfect in the office. But this time Joan knew she wasn't getting anything but fun out of it, and we saw their far more mature relationship in Season 1.
# 18 not Bridget
I don't think that we were told Freddie Rumsen "discovered" Don. I think he mentored Don much the same way Don mentored Peggy.
#23 SuzanneMills
What Roger said to Bert was "and that girl, Betty. Mona said they looked like the couple on our wedding cake."
I'm with the 1953 crowd for a couple of reasons, besides the ones already advanced. 1. At Joan's retirement party (which I think was 1963 but might have been as early as post-October missle crisis in 1962; in any event, pre-JFK assassination/Roger's daughter's wedding) Guy Kendrick toasted her "almost 10 years" of service. If it were in 1955, that would only make it 8 years, at most…& that's not "almost 10." 2. Don's eagerness in the flashback is certainly explained by his driving ambition & confidence in his own talent, but I think Betty is another motivator. I think he was anxious to prove himself worthy of her. I suspect they had not married yet but even if they had, this motivation seems to mesh with what we know of his character. If it were 1955 & they'd been married for 2 years & had a child, I don't think he would have been quite so desperate to prove himself to her.
3. We were told at some point that Don had risen in SC in about 5 years. It seemed clear when the series began that Don was already well established as director of "creative" & not just recently moved into that position.
As for the longevity of Joan & Roger's affair: I'm with the folks who think it was on again/off again with Joan having other relationships in between…or maybe even during. It seems pretty clear to me that Joan is a woman who knows what she wants & goes after it, but with discretion. It also seems clear that she has always at least thought she wanted a husband. As a more naive young secretary she may have harbored hopes that her affair with Roger would lead eventually to matrimony but she probably quickly became disabused of that notion. I think by then though she was already in love with him. So she would have continued to look for husband material elsewhere (including among the young ad executives in the office, eg. Paul) while being emotionally unable to break things off permanently or for long with Roger. As someone else posted, their chemistry made it impossible for either one of them to completely quit the other, although I suspect each called things off more than once, probably to the other's consternation. Joan's complaint about Paul was that he had a big mouth. That wasn't just because he posted her driver's license on the bulletin board. I can see him bragging to the other guys about bagging Joan & it causing a huge rupture between her & a jealous Roger. But then after a few months their make up sex would have been earth shaking.
Oh & one more thing. Regarding Betty's age. We don't know how long she modeled or how much time she spent in Italy, but couldn't she have been doing those things as something of a lark during her summer's off from college?
#24 Empress Rouge. Thank you. That makes sense now. OK, so if Roger wasn't at their wedding, and Betty met the Sterlings for the first time in 1960 "Ladies Room," would Roger's flashback still have to be before their wedding, circa 1953? Were Betty and Don married while he was still a fur salesman? That seems unlikely.
I think it's completely likely that Don and Betts were married whem he was still a fur salesman…it's just another reason for Gene and the rest of the family to be unhappy about Betty marrying Don but it was an absolute love match. How interesting is that fact?
I honestly don't think Weiner would screw the years/events up during the flashback. He's too detail-obsessed. We re going to have to wait til the commentary comes out.
I think Joan's affair with Roger was on again/off again and was slightly before SC. Does anyone know how long Don was with SC?
I didn't have any continuity issues with the Roger/Joan flashback, but now that you mention it, I suppose it's an issue and I agree the fully embalmed in alcohol Current Day Roger could be mixing up all sorts of things.
This also makes sense about the final sequence of the evening — if what the show seems to be suggesting is true (ie, Don used Roger's complete drunken stupor from the previous morning to fabricate himself a job at Sterling Cooper), then how could Roger's memory show us what Don was up to in Roger's flashback?
# 24 et al.
The timeline gaps and inconsistencies leave us all opportunities for speculation, including speculation of "hindsight" inconsistencies. For example, although Don was not a partner early in 1960 when the series first began, he had been with SC at least 5 years and was their well recognized and even honored Creative Director. Yet, it is hard to believe that Betty had not even met Roger or Mona during that five year period.
Explanations please.
Thank you.
If you watch the Inside video on AMC's website Jon Hamm says its amazing that in five years Don went from being hired to where he was in the first episode. It tells what kind of person he is. So it was 1955. Even without the video it seemed like it was 1955 based on what we knew already.
Joan would want a husband at a certain point and Roger wouldn't leave Mona so she left him and probably dated Paul Kinsey next. After that relationship ended she may have gone back to Roger so she can receive gifts and sneak around hoping that Roger would leave his wife. It could repeat a few times, both Roger and Joan got something out of the affair but Joan wasn't getting younger and needed something more.
It may very well be that MW and the writers have decided to retro-actively re-write Joan and Roger's back history — perhaps they weren't envisioning the deep connection between the two at first, and having a history that goes back farther than '59-60 supports the relationship that we see between them now. I'm sure MW had to make a judgment call, given what Roger told Joan in 1960 about this being the best year of his life…But really it was just one remark (and a bit vague at that) and *most* importantly it doesn't undo any significant plot points or anything — so maybe they decided to just go with it. IMO it works — gives more depth to the Joan/Roger story. Good decision.
Last season, Don and Betty went out to dinner with Lane and his wife. She asked how long they'd been married and simultaneously, they give different answers. Betty says "10 years" and Don says "9 years." That's always puzzled me. Was Don just remembering inaccurately in his careless way, or was Betty pregnant with Sally when they got married and so she always give their marital age as longer than it really is? Sally's birthday party in S. 1 is in early April, so Betty got pregnant in July, 1953. The dinner with the Pryces is in 1963, so Betty's answer gives Sally's birthday more legitimacy.
If they rushed to get married as soon as Betty found out she was pregnant, that would further explain Gene's hostility towards Don.
You could tell that Betty and Mona had met before at that dinner with Roger in the first season. It was just a night out with a partner for the Drapers.
…and also explain Don's ambitious behavior in that flashback. Betty's pregnant and either they're married or about to, but in any case, he needs and wants to climb the ladder.
#36:
It is extremely interesting.
First, the extras directly state that Don was at SC for five years prior to the show starting. That places this scene in 1955. Roger and Joan as an on-again/off-again thing for five years is totally plausible to me. It also makes her feelings for her make more sense.
Secondly, it means that Don was married to Betty and they had Sally. The Draper marriage seems even sadder with that piece of news, because Betty married a guy that was much more "Dick Whitman" than "Don Draper". To me, that makes Betty both more likable and less of a victim.
The version of Don that we met in S1 was Betty's co-creation through her need for a "father-husband" and her keen eye for an upper-class gloss. That is why the "Don Draper" persona collapses without Betty. He literally does not know how to be Don without her telling him. It makes sense that Dr. Faye told him that he would be married again in a year. He is an actor in search of direction.
Third, it tells you something interesting about Peggy. She is Don's creative equal, but she is nowhere close to where Don got at year five. She has no spouse, no children, no corner office and no glory.
Has anyone noticed if Don is wearing a wedding ring in the flashback scene? That would help clear up his status with Betty at the time…
As I mentioned in the East Coast episode thread, I loved Don's Noah Ark ad.
I thought it was sweet and sunny.
But, wasn't it for Play-Doh?
When Play-Doh's origins (wallpaper cleaner in the 1930s) were a question on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire last year, Mr. Melly (born in 1950) mentioned he played with it when it first came out.
Hasbro, which now produces Play-Doh, says on its website…
"Since it was first introduced in 1956, PLAY-DOH modeling compound has become a classic and beloved toy, used in homes and schools around the world by children of all ages."
So, it's either a timeline mistake or Don Draper was grabbing on to a brand new product to show Mr. Sterling that he was on top of trends.
Or a timeline mistake.
Dean #45 – wow, good point about Betty having married the goofus fur salesman we're now coming to know. It puts her in a much more favorable light.
#54:
The scene with Peggy in the hotel room was very clever and a great character moment. It was also one of the rare moments when the show would have been better served on HBO. They could not quite show Peggy in full early Playboy mode, which would have added another level to the scene. I am not saying nudity, just more skin than basic cable allows.
As it was, Stan the Pig's arousal was playing at purely intellectual level. It was clever and worked, but it was a rare case where I said "Oh yeah. AMC".
Point of Interest:
Play-Doh was mass marketed in 1956. (http://www.hasbro.com/playdoh/en_US/About.cfm),
Unless I'm mistaken – the "Noah's Ark" ad that DD included in his portfolio to Roger via the mink delivery was for . . . Play-Doh.
#53
I'll bet he did then, after he and Betty were first married. I've concluded(even before last night's ep) that they were crazy about each other. I know that some viewers don't like these flashbacks but maybe we'll find out just what went wrong with their relationship by 1960.
I don't think it is Roger's hazy memory. That is too subtle even for this understated show! I think that it is probably in 1953 or so, when Don was still pursuing Betty. She told Francine she turned him down repeatedly. She probably married him after he landed to job at SC. (I don't see Betty marrying a fur salesman, no matter how good looking he is). It makes sense that Roger got together with Joan soon after she started–just like he did with Jane.
@annereed #60:
AnneMarMae and I both pointed out, Don's spec ad in the fur box is for Play-Doh.
That didn't come out commercially until 1956.
I can't see MW's research being three years off here.
Regardless, I don’t quite understand what Joan and Roger in the hotel room had to do with anything but maybe that will be cleared up later.
I connect with the scene at the bar.
Joan:"You used to be lubricated, now you are just morose."
I would also ask, a little OT, about Pete telling Lane about "Madame DeFarge"
Did he mean Joan?
The point, I think, of the mink scene with Roger and Joan is that Joan is now abandoning Roger after years of affection. Same with the flashbacks with Don. Roger feels it coming.
Allison quitting, and Roger insulting the Japanese, are the fulcrum of this season. Lane and Joan are really P'Od, and fixing the place.
I like the idea of Joan and Roger being on again off again. I'll bet she dated Paul just to make Roger jealous. I'm not sure when the flashbacks were from. Let's hope this is cleared up in the commentary tracks.
Has anyone been speculating about who got Joan pregnant (twice)? Was it Roger once (or 2x) and that contributed to their break-up(s)? She does mention to her doctor this season that she had two "procedures", one with him and one with a woman who said she was a midwife. Mmmm. Inquiring minds want to know.
My guess would be the doc one was with Roger (so he paid for it); the midwife one was with someone else (so maybe she paid for it, or the guy didn't have the financial wherewithal Roger had).
Re: Roger's memories
Twice in this episode Don tell someone, "that's not how it goes." First, when Jane's diminutive dolt of a cousin mixes Samuel Johnson's, “Our aspirations are our possibilities" with Thomas Edison's, “Success is 10 percent inspiration and 90 percent perspiration.” Second, when Roger quotes his mother as saying, …be careful of what you wish for because you'll get it and then people get jealous and try to take it away from you." This episode seems to be about things not being the way the characters believe them to be.
For example, the dolt thinks he will be getting a job based on his relationship with Roger but that's not how it goes, Risso thinks he has the upper hand with Peggy because he is a man but that's not how it goes, and Ken walks into SCDP thinking he will be working as an equal with Pete but that not how it goes. So, if nothing in life is really the way the characters perceive it to be, how can we trust Roger's memories?
Unless MM is tweaking the real-world timeline for the sake of its internal timeline, the events in Roger's flashback could not have taken place earlier than 1955. Although Play-Doh was first mass marketed in 1956, it was introduced in 1955 and marketed first to schools. Neither Roger nor Joan seemed to know what Play-Doh was, which would have been odd (especially for Roger) once it became a mass-marketed item in 1956. Don, as a new parent with a small child, may have come across Play-Doh already and worked up an ad for his book or, perhaps, Don was freelancing on the side and had stumbled across this new product while looking for assignments or ideas for spec ads.
Joan probably began working for SC in the fall of 1963 (or the winter of 1964 at the latest) based on Guy's toast at her retirement party and Joan's own comments. I am surprised that it took Roger over a year (and possible close to two years) to notice Joan, but maybe he (or she) was pursuing other options. An on-again-off-again relationship between Roger and Joan makes sense. Roger's reaction to Dr. Butterfingers seemed to suggest that he and Joanie had been through multiple break-ups and reunions. All Roger had to do was wait long enough and she would come back, or so he thought. My guess is that Joan and Roger first got together in 1955 or late 1954; the season in Roger's flashback is not very clear to me. They probably had several temporary break-ups over the next few years while Joan dated potential husbands and Roger went after the latest additions to the secretarial pool. Joan later got together with Paul in 1958 or early 1959. Based on the lingering resentment, I believe that Joan and Paul had a serious but relatively short-lived relationship because of his lack of discretion. I gathered that the break-up was still relatively fresh during S1 in 1960. After Joan broke up with Paul, she got back together with Roger in 1959.
I like this elongated back story for Joan and Roger – I think it makes sense. It should be swapped out for Don and Midge's back story — the idea that he was seeing her for five years as of 1960 (dating the start of their relationship back to 1955?! Almost the entire length of his marriage to Betty at that point!) just doesn't make sense based on what we have seen of Don and his much briefer dalliances.
I think we've had too much incidental confirmation not to believe that Don started at SC no later than 1955. So was the Play Doh ad a mistake? If so, it seems like a pretty glaring one by MM standards. Not sure what to make of that.
I'm curious as to whether Betty married him BEFORE he got to SC while he was still selling furs (no wonder gene hated their marriage!), or if part of his desperation to get a job there — so he could be "a very important man at a very important agency," which is how he described what Roger does — was to convince Betty to marry him.
Regarding timeline and when Don and Betty were married vis-a-vis his furrier employment…I seem to recall Betty once recounting how she and Don met. She was the model for a fashion shoot and was wearing the fur, she hated having to give it back and so he bought it for her and sent it to her. Anybody know or remember if Don was on hand b/c he worked for the fur company? Or perhaps after he left the fur company they became a client of SC and that's why he was on hand? The former seems more likely to me, which would mean that Betty married Don, the slightly goofy and very eager fur salesman, not Donald Draper, the bad a$$ ad dude.
@ bob mcmanus, I think Pete was calling Layne Madame DeFarge b/c he pit Pete v. Kenny in the last season and now he is behind the plan to possibly bring Kenny back. And though I understand Layne's rational and Pete was a little over the top in his initial reaction, Pete had EVERY REASON ON EARTH TO BE MAD (to quote an early Beatles lyric), I'd feel like I was being stabbed in the back too. It was interesting b/c not only Pete, who is often disliked to a degree, not always for the best of reasons, and Betty, who is in the same boat, were both justifiably angry in both the target and level of their anger in this episode.
As I said a while back, I'm sure that Don and Betts were married before '55 and I'm also sure that at every opportunity Gene reminded Don that he was just a fur salesman. Don needed to move up in the world to get Gene off his back about that at least thus his con job on Roger…a little desperate.
After reading all of these posts, I am more confused than ever.
But I do know that I don't want the flashbacks to be just part of Roger's imagination. That would be going dangerously close to dream- sequence- as -fake-reality a la The Sopranos, which I abhorred.(loved the Sopranos except for that) And wouldn't that tend to put the integrity of all of the flashbacks into question?
#51 JackieD – You state that at the end of season one there is a scene where there is a flashback but we find out it is just in Don's imagination and it didn't actually happen. ALL of the previous scenes in the flashbacks did indeed take place, in my opinion. Did you really mean to say that that particular scene in that flashback
did not occur in Don/Dick's history?
I am surprised at some viewers' recent discovery that Betty met Don before he was at Sterling Cooper. She said early in S1 that she met him at the fur company, where she modeled for their ad (that's the picture we saw in last week's episode.
As far as Don's smile in the last image in the elevator, somebody said that it was inconsistent with the fact that it was Roger's flashback. I don't think so. Don probably conned Roger into thinking that he had hired him and then blacked it out. Roger did not know for sure if he had hired him or no, and in doubt let him in the form.
In 1965, Roger is deeply insecure as to his achievements. The biggest one is that he had hired Don, and saw his potential early on. He wants to get the credit for that, and asks Don to thank him. However, Roger might very well wonder if he had really hired him, since he cannot remember it. He wonders if even that achievement was imaginary. His reminiscing reflects his deep self-doubt. His flashbacks shows that deep down he suspects that he had been conned by Don.
Things that look real but are unreal (decoys) are a main theme this season: the second floor; Faye's fake husband and wedding ring; the Honda ad that was not; of course Don Draper is himself a decoy.
@#68: You have an interesting point about Midge. Did she know about Don's previous problem with Lucky Strike "five years ago" because he had told her about it or because they were already together? Have we ever had any evidence that Don has any drawing ability? Perhaps Midge was the illustrator/art director for Don's book and for his ads while at the furrier.
#69 gypsy howell –
Actually, with what MadLibber said, it could make perfect sense.
When I looked it up, 1956 was the year I saw in all references.
But, the Disneyland website (talking about things that debuted in 1955) mentions Play-Doh., as do a few other places I've seen.
So, it would make perfect sense for Don Draper to look at a brand-new product and try and come up with a spec ad campaign.
With the cute little animals for the Baby Boomers who would all play with Play-Doh.
He had to be married to Betty by the time Roger came into the shop in 1955 because Sally was born in 1954.
That he was nothing but a salesman — Who Had No People — had to be one of the reasons Gene hated him.
#69 Gypsy, my thought is that Betty married Don after he got to SC. Here's a reason. The fur trade is a family business and many of the merchants are Jewish. Don would neither have been family nor Jewish, which would have limited his opportunity for advancement. In that case, he would not have seemed that important to Betty, who as a model would have been in contact with people in the "rag trade" all the time. She didn't need to settle for a mere salesman.
But SC was different. It had a beautiful building on Madison Avenue. Roger Sterling and Bert Cooper were movers in New York's business world (remember Bert's monologue to Don about how the door was being opened to him via the invitation to sit on the Craft Museum board). While none of them were old money, Roger and Bert at least had money. Betty would have recognized that, and it would have elevated Don's status.
I agree that Joan never took the possibility of becoming Mrs. Sterling seriously. Perhaps Roger was racked by guilt at certain points and perhaps he also couldn't perform at times (he drinks, has a bad heart, and probably is on some meds that get in the way). Joan didn't need to put up with that.
#68 gigi and #76 Mad Libber –
Good point about whether Midge could have been Don's illustrator.
Is it possible that Don and Midge had a non-sexual relationahip as friends and struggling artists — ad man and illustrator — and it didn't become an affair until something in the wobbly Draper marriage triggered it?
#75 You bring up an interesting point. I'm in the "he told her about it" camp because he seemed so surprised by the bohemian company she keeps. I find it odd if he had known her for five years, he had never run into them. My guess is that, as of 1960, they have been going out for about a year, and first starting seeing each other when Don became creative director. He probably sought Midge's company to alleviate stress from his job, since he probably can't at home with Betty. This leads to the questions asked earlier when did the Draper marriage go sour. I bet the cracks started early on, after they moved to the suburbs and Betty got bored after having Sally. But I bet it really started going down when Don gets promoted and can't devote all his attention to Betty like he used to, and starts cheating on her.
Therese,
Great post. Great questions.
I may be completely wrong, and MW may be playing with us here
This is my new operating theory, and I am moving forward on the basis of it.
I need more time to figure out how and why, but I studied literature for a pointlessly long stretch of years, and last night's episode was impossible to ignore. And yes, I think we've been heading in this direction for some time.
IMO, the man is tweaking the works. They used to call what I think he's doing the work of "the unreliable narrator", like what Mark Twain did between Tom Sawyer and Adventures of Huckleberry Finn: like what you see onscreen in The Usual Suspects.
Part of me is sort of mad at Matt.
The other part (the part that likes puzzles) is just really, really thrilled.
Oh sorry everyone- I wasn't clear about what I was speculating about. We KNOW Don and Betty got married in May 1953, and that he met her while he was at the fur company, and wooed her with a fur coat (the one we saw in the ad on the wall, I presume!)
I was just trying to pin down when he started at SC — certainly no later than 1955, but maybe as early as 1953, in the months before he married Betty?
At Christmas 1952, he told Anna he wanted to marry her (had he asked yet? Can't remember) but perhaps she put him off until he got a better job at SC and showed some career prospects.
Or, maybe she really *did* marry him while he was still selling furs. In that case, she must really have been head over heels about him — or really rebelling against her oppressive parents! — because a guy going to night school and selling furs doesn't exactly exude "great catch."
Fun to speculate.
I'm hoping the Joan and Roger stuff was the work of the latter's shoddy memory, but my suspicion is MW and his writers wanted us to take it on face value. I did, but coincidentally enough, I didn't buy it. Hard to imagine Joan sticking in an affair with a married guy that long, even if it's the silver fox Sterling at his charming best. Likewise, though Joan might always be a woman for whom he feels nostalgic, I don't see Roger roaming those hills for the length of time last night's episode led us to believe. Others posited that they could have been on-again/off-again during that time, but those types of relationships always seem more the exception than the rule. Plus, you're basing it on a woman leaving an affair only to retun to something as limited as an affair. Hmmmmmmm … don't know. the whole Joan/Roger thing from '53 (or whatever the year was) seemed implausible to me. Didn't buy it, but thought MW and his writer were thinking they could get away with it and the flashback story of Don/Roger/Joan fit with the current Clio (and hand-holding) Don/Roger/Joan stuff.
#25 gypsy howell
Re: Don's early creative promise (or lack thereof)
I was actually really struck by that Play-Doh ad we got a glimpse of in the Roger/Joan flashback. Sure, it was just a rough draft, but the slogan (can't remember it now) definitely had that signature Draper nostalgia.
# 25 gypsy howell
Don DEFINITELY scammed Roger into thinking he’d hired him.
If that is true, doesn't it make Roger even sadder when he's asked what values he brings to the firm and he replies something like "I find guys like him." ?
The one thing he claims to do, he was tricked into.
On the Midge thing, I was always under the impression that Don HAD been seeing her for a long time, albeit pretty casually. He didn't seem surprised by her beatnik friends — he just wasn't into them or that scene. I imagine he met Midge somehow through work — either she freelanced at SC at one point or perhaps she did some work for the fur company, not that it matters much to me in terms of the story.
I'd have to go back and re-watch the pilot, but I'm under the impression that Midge was actually involved with Don at the time of his previous troubles with Lucky Strike five years before. She had a real "oh, I've been through all THIS before with you, Don" attitude.
Hmm maybe they intentionally led us to believe it was a relatively short-lived affair back in season 1…and planned to reveal the whole truth about R&J to us later on (as in now)? That would be sooo Mad Men to do that.
Regarding Roger's flashbacks and what prompts them …
After interviewing Jane's cousin, Don goes to tell Roger, "… that kid? Very, very cute prank." Roger dismisses Caroline, pours them both a drink and they laugh about the kid's book. Roger talks about what it will cost him if he doesn't hire Jane's cousin, then they toast to victory at the Waldorf and shake hands …
… prompting Roger's flashback to his first handshake with Don when they meet at Heller's Luxury Furs, then his memory of presenting the gift to Joan at the hotel … when he discovers Don's book inside the Heller's box.
So that flashback was about first books, and secondarily, Roger's personal "victory at the Waldorf" with Joan perhaps, if the hotel was actually the Waldorf. The memory prompts him to holler for his secretary, "Caroline! Get in here. I think I finally have a work story."
Then later, at the bar Roger gestures to Don and tells Joan that what he does is, "Find guys like him." Roger then remembers the "chance meeting" Don arranged in front of the SC building that workday morning ten years prior, and the subsequent jar of olives he ate over drinks with Don at 10:00 a.m.
Finally, when Don goes to tell Roger he's hired Jane's cousin and Roger gives him the Clio he'd left at the bar, Roger wants Don to "… just say one thing. You couldn't have done it without me." Another handshake and then, as Roger watches Don walk away from his office, he remembers the day Don showed up for his first day of work after being "hired."
First books, first times (assuming the memory of giving Joan the fur was also the first time Roger explored Joan's curves, and I'd dig up that fantastic quote of Roger's from Babylon but don't have it handy), possibly first black-outs, first "accidental" hires, first trophies, first domination/power play (Pete with Ken, Peggy with Rizzo).
A lotta firsts in "Waldorf Stories."
I don't think it's impossible that Betty married Don before he was a success. She was younger then, probably more romantic (she was still living in fairy tale mode in S1 and early S2), idealistic and had a "love conquers all" attitude. Despite how she was raised, she, at that time, would have been been okay marrying "only" a salesman. That doesn't mean she wasn't materialistic: she only agreed to go out w/ Don after he got her a coat. Even though he was a salesman, she probably figured he could provide for her. He managed to get (buy or talk the owners to give it to her) a fur coat. Remember, Trudy's dad started as a salesman and worked his way up. I think Gene had a similar storyline. Plus when you're in your mid-twenties like Don, nobody's gonna be an exec yet.
The Roger and Joan 1950's flashback really threw me, that maybe due to having watched the Babylon episode from season 1 just a few hours before last night's episode. When Roger says to Joan "This has been the best year of my life. Do you have any idea how unhappy I was before I met you?" Going on to suggest to suggest he is thinking of leaving Mona and is tired of sneaking around. Joan scoffs at this, pointing out that men find the sneaking around to be a big part of the thrill of an affair.
This scene, which I have seen several times before, left me with the impression that the affair was about a year old. It is plausible that they have had an on again off again relationship but just barely. Too much of the dialogue between these two characters in the first season implies a much shorter time span for their affair.
#73 Josie. In the very last episode of season 1, there actually is a short "fake" scene. (Also–Betty's drugged out birth sequence is not real.)Betty was trying to talk Don into coming down with her and the kids to visit her father for Thanksgiving. Don said he didn't want to go, he had to work.
Don goes home on the train after his Kodak success–and arrives at a darkened house. (Everyone else on the train is carrying fruit baskets and going home to celebrate with family.)
There is a 20 second clip where Don walks into the dark house and says "hello" and it turns out that Betty miracuously "hasn't left yet" and the kids are overjoyed that Don "changed his mind" –that he's decided to go with them for Thanksgiving.
Then–like a slide show where the slide is stuck or out of place–we watch the final scene backup and begin again.
The scene repeats. Don walks into the dark house and says "hello." Nobody answers. The house is empty.
And then Bob Dylan's "Don't Think Twice, It's Alright," starts to play. Don is entirely alone for Thanksgiving by his own choice and preference. "When the rooster crows at the break of dawn, just look out your window and I'll be gone. You're the reason I'm traveling on, but don't think twice, it's alright."
#84 WTJB — I thought that was the whole point of the scene — Roger's crushing realization that the one thing he claims to have been good at or contributed to the whole SC enterprise, was in fact probably not his idea at all. Or at best, he has real doubts about it.
I thought that shot of Roger watching Don walk down the hall past Le Petit Siegel was his realization that "oh shit maybe I DIDN'T hire Don — did he really con me?"
Hilarious. And kind of heartbreaking.
I think a lot (or at least some) of the chronology will get cleared up by the end of the season. Every season, there's at least 2 flashback sequences. Anna Draper's first flashback appearance in "The Gold Violin" was definitely a cliffhanger and we finally find out who she is until "The Mountain King." I'm crossing my fingers for more answers toward the season finale.
“This has been the best year of my life. Do you have any idea how unhappy I was before I met you?”
#89 Lily, the problem I have with this line is that when he said it to her, she'd obviously been working at SC for quite a long time already, much longer than a year. It's inconceivable that Roger would have only met her in the office a year before. There's no way that "magnificent ship" sailed through the waters of the Sterling Cooper offices for 4+ years without Roger noticing!
So, if there's a glitch in the timeline, I think it's in Babylon with this line of dialog.
#89 — totally agree. I'd also suggests it belittles Joan's character if their affair did last that long. Not in any moral sense, but that she put in that much time and then saw the younger Jane sweep in and move Roger where she had not. That's a long time for a single woman to put into an affair with a married man and only end up with an office manager job at the end of the day. But it gives further reason as to why she was crying during her farewell at the infamous lawnmower episode.
#89 ** When Roger says to Joan “This has been the best year of my life. Do you have any idea how unhappy I was before I met you?” **
The funny thing about this line is that it also makes it seem like he'd just met her within the last year. Obviously that can't be true — we know she'd been around SC for a while by then and there is NO way that Roger hadn't gone out of his way to meet her in all that time! And how could he not have if she was the office manager, and probably head secretary or something before that?
Haha #93 — I like how you put that (obviously typed mine before yours posted!)
@#89: Babylon is a problem for the timeline apparently established in this espisode, but I cannot believe that Roger's memory is so unreliable that he would replace a former mistress with Joan or would not remeber when his affair with Joan began. The line is Babylon also suggests that Roger had only known Joan for a year in 1960 but it is undisputed that as of 1963 she had been working for SC for almost 10 years. The best way to understand the line about the last year being the best year of Roger's life is to read it as unconnected from his subsequent line about being unhappy before he met Joan. In other words, Roger is not saying that the last year was the best year of his life because he had met Joan. Admittedly, that is a bit of an unnatural reading of the lines, but it is the best way to reconcile S1 with the current eposide and suggestions of a deeper relationship from S2 and S3.
Perhaps Roger started out, like Don, thinking that office romances were not a good idea. That would explain the gap in time between when Joan started working at Sterling Cooper and Roger's 'year' comment.
# 97 MadLibber , I agree with you. The two sentences can be true while still independent of each other.
For instance, it may be that the last year was the best year of his life because they resumed their old affair. He is thinking his life would be sadder if they had never met.
Yeah, I think Roger's "Babylon" line still makes sense. I can be translated as: "I was unhappy before I met you X number of years ago, and then, on top of that, this past year in which our relationship went to a new level was the best year of my life."
I could also buy that maybe it wasn't even a full-fledged relationship at first. It could have just been an occasional date/nooner between the boss and the hot new secretary. Then, in 1959, it begins in earnest.
Okay, I never thought I’d say this but I am bored with this season.
The Roger/Joan flashback messes with the MM timeline, granted.
But the more important info, IMO, is whether Betty married Don when he was just a fur salesman (it appears so), and whether Don conned his way into SC with Roger (it appears so).
Someone in last week’s backstory thread mentioned in “Six Month Leave”, Freddie takes claim for finding Don at the furrie. I haven’t watched Season 2 in a long time, do we have any confirmation on that?
I’m in the 1955 group. From what we know Joan started working at SC sometime in 1953. If her affair with Roger was new in ’55 then there’s a whole two years where she perhaps had her relationship with Paul. That or there’s the possibility of her affair with Roger being ‘on again/off again’ and her relationship with Paul being later.
I just re-watched Babylon and I think from the way they Joan and Roger interact in the hotel it is very possible they’ve been together for several years. They are very comfortable with each other and they are discussing Roger’s family life in a way that suggests a long familiarity. There is Roger’s line about it being the best year of his life but that doesn’t mean that their affair is only a year old.
I’m going to have to disagree pretty strongly with the theory that we are seeing Roger’s addled memories. I honestly cannot see any compelling evidence for that. None of the flashbacks we’ve seen so far over the seasons have been altered based on who is remembering them. The only time I can think of an imagined scene is the one in the season one finale where Don makes it home on time and has Thanksgiving with his family and they make it abundantly clear after, with Don sitting alone in his home, that the previous scene was in Don’s imagination and hadn’t actually happened.
That’s my two cents anyway.
Joan Betty #16 wrote: “I actually called the registrar’s office at Bryn Mawr the other day (I was re-reading some old posts discussing whether Betty had lied to Glen about her age) and was told that Bryn Mawr does not (and never has) given two-year degrees, not even in the 1950′s (I specifically asked about that). Since the question was so off-the-wallk, I told the registrar why I was asking it, and she seemed tickled to hear the reason.”
Seriously? I don’t know why, but this strikes me as incredible over-investment in the show! What is it about this show that makes everybody–myself included, I confess–so obsessive? Let’s all step away from our computers . . .
Therese: I think it’s a huge stretch to imagine that Roger was wrongly inserting Joan into his own flashback. This isn’t, I don’t know, “Lost”. . . If you think it was a false memory meant to represent Roger’s fractured mind, how on earth do you think more casual viewers of the show would pick up on that?! (And I really think most viewers are a lot more casual than those of us who post on this blog.)
Finally, as somebody said above, Joan never said “when I’m married”–she said “when I wear it.”
@47 I don’t think it would help to look at Don’s finger since I am 99% sure Don never wore a wedding ring!
Well, all great comments and I just want to clarify, I may be completely wrong!
I just watched the episode again and it did seem real enough, and I'm willing to agree with the on/off idea, which would leave room for Paul. But if Joan has been working with SC for 9 years in 1962, that means she started in 1953. If Roger had just met her at that point, it makes sense that the stole was a 'nice to meet you, don't want to scare you' gift. One thing I find more intriguing about this time line is that Joan has been a SC longer than Don. (Maybe that's why he respects her so, I'm sure she helped him around SC in the beginning). Yet he 'never went for her' , probably because he was still relatively happy with Betty and by the time he was cheating on Betty, he knew that office girls were off limits.
I do feel concerned about both Roger and Don's downward spiral. In this ep., Don couldn't keep track of days or slogans or what woman he had slept with. That's the most painful thing about watching this season.
All of you are much more adept at working out the timeline, so I’m going to add a piece for you to play with. The Korean War started in June of 1950 and ended in July of 1953. Not sure how long the real Don enlisted for, but wasn’t he about to go home when he and Dick met? It’s entirely possible “Don” was out of the army and selling cars and being found out by Anna Draper all in 1952.
I’m really sorry Peggy didn’t get to go to the Awards ceremony, but if she had, she’d have never gotten nekkid with the new creative guy. Those scenes were great.
Joan was naive and enthusiastic in that mink scene. She may have believed they’d wind up together.
I’m sure they broke up – Joan toughened up – and perhaps later (season 1?) she hooked up with him again against her better judgment.
In the season 1 scenes with Roger she is not hopeful, naive or enthusiastic – but instead treats him as a little boy and she has no illusions that their relationship is nothing more than an affair.
So it was all a dream, like in Dynasty?
Nope, too much a stupid soap opera trick to be the case for Mad Men.
The “Anything Can Happen, Anything, Impossible or Not — Anything At All!” school of writing is usually tolerated only in soap opera or bad fantasy.
If there’s one thing Mad Men is not, is badly written: it’s silly and annoying to assume the least likely explanation, based on nothing, for a plot point there.
Think Occam’s Razor:
“Occam’s razor (or Ockham’s razor[1]) is the principle that “entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity” (entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem). The popular interpretation of this principle is that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Simplest is not defined by the time or number of words it takes to express the theory; “[simplest] is really referring to the theory with the fewest new assumptions.” [2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
A sober Don Draper would NEVER start throwing out slogan after slogan when the client isn't sold on his initial campaign. The Life scenes, and his blackout weekend, including forgetting the kids, has to be a new low.
# 77 – wasn't the furrier Greek?
#90 Lady K – Thanks for that info, I had completely forgotten it. I think JackieD referred to it as a flashback, I would think it would be more a kind of hallucination. Or maybe it's a semantical difference.
#71 – Dark Peggy I'm pretty sure Pete said disparagingly,"Lane AND Madame Defarge". He had to be referring to Lane and Joan. Remember Joan told him after the incident with Ken at the bar before the awards ceremony, to "ask Lane". He could infer from that that Joan knew and was probably a part of the maneuvers to merge with Geyer. Madame Defarge was a scheming villain in Dickens's "A Tale of Two Cities".
#104 – Teddy the Greek was another employee at Heller's, and not the owner.
Random thoughts:
I never realized it was Kinsey who posted Joan's driver's license on the bulletin board in the break room. Can someone tell me how we know he did it?
Is there a time line of events posted somewhere, on this blog or another one?
In season 1 when it's first revealed Roger & Joan are having an affair, I got the idea it'd been going on a year, not years, because of his famous line "This has been the best year of my life." Later in season 1, when Joan was referencing "The Apartment," I got the idea she'd been hoping for something more from him but was realizing he'd never leave Mona for her. So I think she could have seen the affair as more than just fun (as I believe Shirley MacLaine felt about Fred MacMurray). But, on the other hand, maybe seeing that movie simply made Joan feel like an office plaything
& she was fed up.
It's hard for me to think that Don & Midge, in season 1, had been together for 5 years. She phoned him at the office for the first time for a booty call. He made her feel bad about that. If they'd been together for years, wouldn't she have done this earlier? I know she'd just gotten a phone, but still…
All of this discussion, especially the speculation about Roger possibly being addled or his brain pickled because of all the booze makes me wish even more for some flashback about the beginning months of the new firm. There's such a disparitiy to me as to how upbeat and rejuvinated they were at the end of last season and now, with Roger seeming very spent and Don almost as bad as Freddy. I'd like to see a bit of what happened during the start-up months.
@ Goldgirl # 108
Is the emcee at the CLEO awards Jennifer Aniston's father?
Yes, that's John Aniston (Victor Kiriakis to all of us former Days Of Our Lives watchers.)
#111 Kassy – " Oh, I don’t know maybe Matt just forgot about 'roaming the hillsides' and goofed."
Hah! Unless shown otherwise in future episodes, that's what's likely in my mind.
#102 Therese
I think Don never hit on Joan because he knew she was Roger's mistress – whether or not is was on and off – she would be off limits. Why does everyone assume that Joan would automatically be attracted to or unable to resist a married Don?
I think it more likely that she was husband hunting but Roger seduced her and if the timing had been different, perhaps he would have left Mona for her. But the timing wasn't right. Margaret was too young. I felt Roger chose Jane when he was ready to leave Mona, as Joan was already engaged to Dr. Greg.
Also, I often read comments where people think Joan's rape by Greg happened in Don's office. I thought it was in Roger's, after he purposely let Greg know that he had been intimate with Joan – "I thought you didn't like French food?" Greg was reacting directly to that. He was already threatened by her obvious sexual experience and was punishing her and "showing Roger" subconsciously.
I did notice Don going in for the full mouth kiss with Joan, when he won his Cleo. Joan is clearly the nurturing type – still propping up Roger, calming him down about the Honda deal. It would be even more jealousy provoking for Roger if Don manages to seduce Joan. I don't think she's interested, but she might be his next Anna. Time will tell what MW has up his sleeve for them all.
Josie, I know who Madam DeFarge is and I have read Tale of Two Cities( a little irked you assumed I needed that explained to me) perhaps I misheard, I thought he said "you, Madame DeFarge," as a double (sexist) insult b/c Lanye is plotting behind his back and he is behaving like a female. Perhaps he was referring to Joan, but that either makes no sense or shows how irrational he is behaving b/c Joan, despite having an inkling of what is going on, is not a scheming villainess and unlike Madame DeFarge is not the agent of webs of intrigue.
I agree with Kassy #111, that Roger was Joan's male friend-with-benefits in between the "marriage material" guys. I vote for on-again/off-again. At one point (For Those Who Think Young?), Joan tells Roger explicitly that she has always been faithful to whomever she was with at the time.
And I believe her. If she was really hunting so intently for marriage, she would be smart to actually be faithful to that boyfriend and carry that fidelity into the marriage. My point is, while we know that Joan has clearly had several sexual partners, she never strikes me as the type to sneak around and lie. The same way that Season 1 Joan knows that Roger won't leave Mona for her. She'll have a fling with someone, but won't try to destroy a marriage (as someone mentioned above).
decogirl, I was recalling how in the one episode in season 1, Joan casually mentions to Peggy that Don never went after her. The full mouth kiss, though brief, was surprising!
One possibility: in season 1, Joan wondered aloud to Peggy why Don never seemed to go for her (I think it was just after Peggy spilled the beans about overhearing the phone call with Midge.) Then she said something like–"he's so handsome, he doesn't need to date around the office."
If Roger bought Joan that mink, it isn't crazy to think Don may have seen Joan wearing the mink–and put 2 and 2 together. Don was not a partner and Roger Sterling was. If Don was ambitious, it wouldn't have been smart at all to mess with "Roger's girl."
Don seems to have dropped most of his dating rules right now.
Don is a partner, and Roger can't fire him at the drop of a hat. Don has been valuable to the company (hence the award.)
I thought it was intentional the way the camera zoomed up under the table at the awards ceremony to show Roger holding Joan's hand. Then as they geared up for the announcement, they showed Don taking Joan's other hand and holding it, too.
Then when Don won, he kissed Joan on the lips. I haven't seen that before.
Nothing may ever come of it, but the directors seemed to be teasing us a little.
Even if there were never a full fledged romance, if Roger SUSPECTED there was something going on that could cause a lot of Don/Roger tension.
Don and Roger have patched up their relationship several times –but they have certainly had their issues over the years.
Maybe one point of this episode is that everyone is starting to relax a little too much. Everyone had to be on their absolute best behavior for months and months when SCDP was new. Maybe they are starting to think they have past the worst part now, and they are starting to relax and get a little bit SLOPPY. Old rivalries and new rivalries are strarting to escalate now that they are not terrified of falling flat on their faces every day.
Maybe 5 partners with very different personalities is too many partners. Personalities are starting to grate.
#115 Dark Peggy – I'm so sorry I misunderstood your comment. I had just come back from the AMC talk forum where many commenters didn't know who Madame Defarge was. I should know better that people here would be more sophisticated.
But I still say that Pete was pissed at Joan for knowing about this plan before he did and maybe extrapolated from that that she was a plotter alone side Lane.
I am telling you, Betty is turned on by self-made men. She finds the kinds of guys she went to school with BORING. I'll bet anything Henry Francis did not go to boarding or prep school, that he did something like get into Yale on scholarship. I definitely hear a bit of working-class accent in him, like I heard it in Gene (who almost certainly, wasn't born with a silver spoon in his mouth either).
So yes, he was probably already married to Betty, and had a kid, and realized that he was in a dead-end job and that if he wanted to move up, own a real house, etc., he had to move on.
When Don kissed Joan I thought Joan reacted in a very funny sexy Joan way. It's just my feminine intuition talking but I really thought Joan was like "all-fucking-right. hot, yes" but that Don wouldn't intend it that way. It was pretty freaky. I guess I always figured Joan is really good about using her immense sexual powers responsibly and anything with Don would be great in a parallel universe but not in this one. Joan is so cool.
Yeah, the "best year" thing definitely doesn't sound like something that started seven or eight years eariler. We're talking guys here, people, or in this case one guy, Roger Sterling. For all of Joanie's va-va-voom charms, I don't see a guy like Sterling ever being smitten that long while still with the woman.
Anyway, unless it's further elaborated/explained in coming weeks, I don't see why it had to be Joan in the hotel room except to make the narrative paralllels tidy, and in that case I don't think it was worth it. Could've been an assumed anniversary or b-day or Xmas present for Mona and left it at that.
But hey, give'em a jarring mulligan — though I won't be above occasionally poking fun of that flub for a show that is often so hyper-carefully written.
Moving on, the most interesting development might be the young turks (Pete, Peggy, Crane, Cosgrove, etc) vs. the old guard (Roger and Don) showdown that seems to be developing inside SCDP. I like it. But I also think Roger will pull off something big (before season's end) to show his worth beyond keeping Lee Garner happy. I sense Sterling could still be the best account guy in the place; he just wants to sit in his new office and talk about ice cream. Or otherwise have a drink and crack wise.
I think you're right to note that the flashback is not at all about what really happened, and entirely about Roger's nostalgia.
. The ad in the fur shop had Betty in it as the model, and they married in 1953.
Great catch!!
Isn’t that Betty in the ad at the fur store? Don said it was his idea.
Is the emcee at the CLEO awards Jennifer Aniston’s father?
Wanted to add that I just LOVED that flash of Drunk Duck at the CLIOs. I so wished Peggy had been there to see it.
A Greek furrier? Furriers are Russian. Their tailors are Greek.(Forgive the generalization, I started in retail.)
I’m thinking that Roger and Joan were on/off way back to whenever the mink coat incident occurred. She probably let him entertain her while she was in between boyfriends. Then when we get to Season one and the best year that Roger refers to, I thought maybe things were really bad with Mona that year and he was needy so Joan might have let him become her exclusive male friend because maybe she thought he would actually leave Mona for her. When he didn’t that made it all the harder for her when he chose Jane. Oh, I don’t know maybe Matt just forgot about roaming the hillsides and goofed.
I think the problem I have with Roger and Joan in 1955 is it would mean one of two things: 1) she slept with Kinsey after she'd been with Roger or 2) that Kinsey had been at the agency at least as long as Don. As to the first point, Kinsey is a downgrade from Roger, and Joan doesn't strike me as the type who would opt for the junior copy writer after having shagged the head of the agency — even if she did it out of spite, revenge or as a result of some drunken stupor. I mean, I could see her boffing some smokin' hot, sweaty dude who worked in the print shop just to get under Roger's skin, but Paul? And then to have him blab about it at work? Would Paul even have a job after that? At Roger Sterling's company? Hell to the no! However, if Joan was merely testing the waters of the office romance pool, I could see her starting with someone like Paul, and then moving on to bigger and better things as a result of that tryst.
So the other option is that Paul had been working at S/C for at least as long as Don. This also strikes me as false because Paul was considered one of the younger members of S/C. In one episode wasn't Don specifically talking about Paul when he was told to hire younger writers and Don's response was "you want them younger than that?" Additionally, if Don and Paul started at the same time (especially with Don's weak credentials) I'd expect to see more resentment on the part of the underlings, as well as more jostling for power. As it was, there was some deference (even if it was just a teeny, tiny bit) from the younger guys toward Freddie, Salvatore and Don who seemed more established at the company.
I mentioned this elsewhere but I watched the fur store flashback in slo-mo and (1) no wedding ring on Don's finger and (2) yes, that is Betty in the poster (I'm 80% sure).
I was surprised by the kiss Don gave Joan as well. It wasn't just the kiss but he took her by the waist which is fairly intimate rather then just a quick peck. I loved that Joan held Roger's hand AND Don's hand.
126: I am not as sure as you are about Joan high standards for men. Remember the two gross guys she and her friend picked up the night Roger was having a coronary with the aluminum twin? They did not seem to be exclusive.
BTW, in Babylon, Roger mentions a pearl necklace that he had given her. We now learned that he had given her a mink stole. Gift giving seemed an essential part of their relationship, to be polite. In that context, that of a relationship that was not the big romantic thing that some viewers keep dreaming about, it would make sense that Joan was sort of a regular but not necessarily frequent lover for Roger, and could be for a number of years. Same type of relationship that Don had with Midge, in which he decided if and when to see her, and she would be scolded if she dared take the initiative. And with Midge too, the relationship was not exclusive.
Those goobers that Joan picked up in "Long Weekend" were a special circumstance. It was mostly to communicate something to Carol, and at that moment for Joan, any man would do. Besides, as was noted in the episode, most of the really hot guys had already left town because it was Labor Day Weekend.
As to the pearl necklace, Roger actually gave that to her in the Babylon episode — the first time they were at the hotel together. He also gave her the love birds (what ever became of those, I wonder).
Wow I’m confused and dubious about the timeline now.
One thing I have no problem believing is that Betty would marry Don even if he was nothing special. I always remember how she was set up to be painfully, physically in love with him to the point that she was spacing out while he was work waiting for him to come home. I don’t think Betty was above falling in love with someone who was “just” a salesman. I have never been sure she was a gold digger or anything like that, I think that was her guy and she figured it out from being around him as a person.
I’m really bothered by the “best year” thing though. I really don’t get it and hope it will be explained next week. I was just talking last week about how much faith I have in this show and if this can’t be made clear within the narrative I am going to be really disappointed.
I have always had the impression that Roger and Joan were lovers for many years, going back into the fifties. I am astonished that anyone would doubt it.
Joan was never exclusive with Roger. Joan used to go out and pick up men all the time. She dated Paul the copywriter, or at least had an affair with him. She was a sexy, sexual young woman.
She and Roger almost seemed married, in a weird way, but they both had lots of other sexual affairs. This was always the sense I had.
Roger did not leave Mona for Joan. That was his big mistake, if you ask me. Joan found the doctor and stopped dating around and then jane came along and scooped Roger up.
It is the tragedy of Roger's life that he didn't leave Mona for Jane. And I think it is a tragedy that Joan is not married to Roger. They would have been really great for one another.
re: Bling. . I agree with what you say, mostly, . . . but Joan and her roommate picked up those older gross guys because Joan can be passive aggressive. Joan was punishing the roommate for her lesbian come on to Joan. Remember? The roommate told Joan to think of her as a man and Joan said 'you poor thing, you are tired and need to have fun" and then Joan practically forced the roomie to have sex with the gross guy from the bar, like punishment for the lesbian come on.
I love Joan, don't get me wrong, but Joan has her flaws and vanities.
And Joan made a big mistake with her doctor husband, didn't she? I bet she chose that husband for the boost of being married to a doctor and that was all she saw when she chose her awful mate. But Joan made her choice. I am sure she could have attracted lots of other men, such as rich business men, even if Roger was still committed to Mona . . . Joan made her bed with the creepy doctor.
Joan can be awful but sometimes she is very catty. I love her character as a charcter but in real life, she'd be hard to take.
Don had his job at STErlng Cooper before he married Betty but he knew betty before STerling Cooper. in fact, I bet part of the reason he moved so hard on Roger to get the SC job was to impress the beautiful BEtty.
I know Betty knew Don has no family — he had no one at the wedding — but she said she thought he was angry with his father.
I agree that Betty's father sounded like he had working class origins.
I disagree that Henry seems working class. Henry seems upper middle class.
Betty wasn't a total snob when she married Don but she did not marry him right away. I bet we see that part of his motivation to score the job at SC was to impress the lovely Betty.
Folks, Don was drunk when he kissed Joan. That's why he kissed her. And he was excited about winning because he was drunk. It's not that hard to explain Don's strange behavior. He was in the early hours of a bender.
Sallie Draper was born in 1953. . . so when did Don go to work at SC? Betty had already met him, modeled in the fur ad. Were Betty and Don married when Don got his first job at SC?!! Yikes, that would be something. It doesn't quite fit what I thought about the Betty Don courtship. . . . hmmm.
re #107: "I never realized it was Kinsey who posted Joan’s driver’s license on the bulletin board in the break room. Can someone tell me how we know he did it?"
Paul took Joan's purse from her locker (which curiously was not locked up) and used the new Xerox machine to make the copy of the license. Earlier during the party scene, Paul's girlfriend had paid Joan a compliment on it (despite Joan's subtle insults to her), so that we'd know that particular red purse was Joan's. We only see a man's arm pull the purse out of the locker, but under the circumstances you know only Paul would be motivated to pull something like that on Joan.
re # 114: "Also, I often read comments where people think Joan’s rape by Greg happened in Don’s office. I thought it was in Roger’s, after he purposely let Greg know that he had been intimate with Joan – “I thought you didn’t like French food?” Greg was reacting directly to that. He was already threatened by her obvious sexual experience and was punishing her and “showing Roger” subconsciously."
Nah, I'm pretty sure it was Don's office. It was one of those periods when Don was between secretaries so Joan was covering Don's desk. They'd walked by Roger's office earlier so Joan could show off her beau to Roger, and then went back to Don's desk so Joan could get her things. But Dr. McRapey insisted on having a drink first (not to mention other things), so they went into Don's office.
Joan stressed to Roger that she wanted to keep her relationship with him casual. She didn't want to be his full-time mistress. She wanted to be able to leave whenever Astronaut Mike Dexter came along. Roger had no reason to leave Mona for Joan, because he had no reason to believe she'd take him if he did.
Tizzielish, Sally had her 6th birthday party in early May 1960 (Marriage of Figaro), so was born in 1954. But May 1953 was when Don and Betty got married (The Gypsy and the Hobo).
About the timeline: In the flashback, Joan says something about seeing Roger with the package in the office, so she was already working at SC. At her retirement party, held on July 4, 1963, Guy said that she had been working for SC for almost 10 years. If (as likely) Roger put the moves on her as soon as he noticed this new secretary (and we know that the SC guys went to size up the "new girl" – I suspect that Joan had made an impression), that means that Roger went to buy the mink sometime around mid 1953. Don met Betty in the later months of 1952, divorced Anna in Feb. 14, 1953, married Betty in May 1953., and Sally was born in May 1954. It seems pretty certain that Betty married Don when he was still working in the fur company. Remember the young air conditioning guy: she told him that her husband was a "salesman". I remember that at the time it seemed odd to me that she did not say: an advertiser.
Betty married "below her station", over the objections of her beloved father. As someone noted, she was still very much in love with Don in the early episodes of S1.
#135 and 138 – Joan wanted Mike Dexter but ended up Dr. Drew Baird!
Regarding the questions about Betty and Bryn Mawr…for some reason, it seems to be a weak point both chronology and anachronism-wise for Weiner. In the first season, Betty talks about her sorority, but Bryn Mawr doesn't have – and never has had – sororities. Maggie Siff (who played Rachel Menken) is a Bryn Mawr alum and actually called Weiner out on this when she saw the scene.
In short, I wouldn't try to make sense of Betty's college experience, timeline-wise.
I'll also add my voice to the chorus – I don't think the flashbacks are Don- or Roger-specific; they're showing us what happened, from a relatively neutral perspective. That said, I do think something bad is coming for Roger, physically and mentally. I predict another heart attack, likely fatal.
Also – I'm pretty sue Betty and Don were not quite married yet when he started at SCDP, but that he proposed soon after. That would jibe with his visit to Anna to get the divorce.
Ooooh, can anyone grab a screen shot of the divorce certificate? Does it have a date on it?
"I think all those things Joan said about Roger “you like the chase” and “I just want to have fun” –all of those things protected Joan’s pride and they gave Roger the chance to FIGHT FOR HER AND EARN HER if he really wanted to. But he never did.
He took her words at face value"
I can see that. It's kind of the same thing that happened with Don's "read-between-the-lines" apology attempt to Allison the morning after. It's the classic, "Why can't you hear what I'm not saying" that comes between so may couples.
And I absolutely agree that however it started, they both ended up caring a lot.
#142 – Here it is from the season 3 scrapbook on AMC's site
http://media.amctv.com/img/originals/madmen/photo…
It's dated Valentine's Day, 1953 and the Drapers married 3 months later in May.
Aha! So, then, my guess is (based on the prevalence of overcoats) that the flashbacks were set in late fall 1952, and Don proposed that winter.
Whatever their intentions when they first started being romantic, I got the impression that both Joan and Roger developed feelings that surprised them in their strength. This is not an uncommon story. Two people are “just having a good time” until one or the otherof them suddenly realizes they care. They care SO MUCH IT HURTS.
Then that person is trapped, because the understanding of the whole relationship was “we’re just having a good time.”
So you either HIDE the feelings and send lots of feelers or hints –or you make an embarrassing confession like Carol did to Joan.
(Similar situation between Don and Midge. The rule was “it isn’t serious”–so eventually Don got hurt because someone else came along who was willing to take Midge more seriously.)
If you look between the lines in season 1, Joan was really throwing out a lot of tests and feelers towards Roger (without being direct or putting him on the spot.)
Joan knew what was “expected of her” as a secretary. She knew the fastest way to scare away a man like Roger would be to get emotional and ask for more. When she was young, had other options, and didn’t really care about Roger, she could play that part and enjoy it for what it was. He was handsome, rich, charming, and fun–and neither one of them expected more than a good time.
But it eventually dawned on Joan that she had started caring too much for that. Her inability to visit him openly in the hospital, and their tears when she first saw him and was applying makeup.
And we as the audience know that Roger was in a state of undress with one of the twins when the whole heart attack happened (because Joan rejected him and went out with Carol to find men?)
By 1960s standards Joan was getting pretty old to be finding a husband. It seemed like she did run the risk of being a party girl who was passed from man to man and discarded indifferently (like the girl in “The Apartment”?)
I think she had to “get over Roger” and move on to find a real relationship–unless she wanted to be the secretary who has to wait and wait in silence while Mona tends to Roger in the hospital. And if she remained single, what would happen in 5 or 10 years when she got “too old” to find somebody else? And Roger gave her up for all the new, younger girls? And what if she really does want to be a mother, too?
I think that Joan didn’t want to have a husband that ran around on her like Roger ran around on Mona. Furthermore, even if she could have been convinced to risk a marriage with Roger, Roger was not giving any hint that he would ever leave Mona and marry her.
I think all those things Joan said about Roger “you like the chase” and “I just want to have fun” –all of those things protected Joan’s pride and they gave Roger the chance to FIGHT FOR HER AND EARN HER if he really wanted to. But he never did.
He took her words at face value, and he liked her because she wasn’t asking for anything. (The way Don liked Midge or Anna when they didn’t ask for anything.) If she had started asking for things, he wouldn’t have liked her as much. By saying those things to Roger, she was giving him an opportunity to “deny it” and prove his love for her if he wanted to. He didn’t want to.
Joan was able to give without asking for much (affection or commitment) in return, because she had an outside life that was satisfying to her. But her position was no longer becoming sustainable as her relationship with Carol tanked, she was getting old by 1960 standards, and she eventually realized she didn’t want the main relationship in her life to be a relationship where she wasn’t allowed to visit him in the hospital.
A doctor impressed her. He actually wanted to marry her. Unfortunately, I think she could have done better than Greg in a lot of other ways.
So of course, it was terrible for Joan when Roger chucked Mona for Jane.
# 141:
I know that this is heresy, but isn't it possible that Betty lied about Bryn Mawr? Nearly every character on the show is a liar of one kind or another. Maybe Betty only attended for a semester, or two, before running off to become a model. Is that really an area into which Don (of all people) would probe further?
#135 – Astronaut Mike Dexter! LOL
#134, Signed D.C. Wow.Thanks I sure did miss this one. The arm going into a locker and gettting out Joan’s purse. I’ll have to watch this again.
Another question, for anyone: In “The Wheel,” when we see the slide of Don and Betty dressed up (not their wedding picture, where he’s got her in his arms), where is that supposed to be and what is the gold thing in his hair?
Thanks.
Middle, that’s a New year’s Eve picture of Don and Betty — there’s confetti on his shoulder and the 1956 crown on his head, and it’s December 31, 1955
http://blogs.amctv.com/mad-men/2008/04/don-drapers-kodak-presentation.php
[...] Lipp Sisters, who are normally the Internet arbiter of all things Mad Men, have come up with the lame story that Roger was in the hotel room with Mona, and that it’s just his drunken imagination [...]