An explanation and then a post.
Explanation: I normally watch an episode, jot down notes, and either write a post (and stay up way too late) which I polish Monday morning, or I write the whole post Monday morning (having therefore gotten up way too early). I always avoid reading anything about the episode before writing, because I am not a creative thinker if others’ thoughts are too much with me. I don’t even read the Open Thread(s) until after I’ve written. This week, personal obligations prevented me from watching until Monday evening. So not only did I avoid the Open Threads, but the whole darn blog.
So, get on with it. Where’s the post?
The Chrysanthemum and the Sword is about shame, and I’m pretty sure that the entire Internet has already written that. The juxtaposition of Sally’s shame with Roger’s is brilliant. Ripples of shame surround each primary incident; Phoebe is indirectly shamed by Sally’s error, and is wrongly blamed by Don. Pete is indirectly shamed by Roger’s error, and is wrongly blamed by Honda. Sally’s mother is ashamed on Sally’s behalf; Roger’s father-figure (Bert) is ashamed on Roger’s behalf (Bert and Betty each explicitly state this).
Shame is a dark theme, so it helps that this is the funniest (and perhaps all-around best) episode of the season. Mrs. Blankenship is comedy gold. Peggy riding the motorcycle in circles is not only uproarious, but also an indelible image. (And the red bike circling on a white soundstage is almost a Japanese flag—take that for what you will.)
But it’s not just shame (does any Mad Men episode have only one theme?). The Chrysanthemum and the Sword is also about forgiveness, and it’s about rules—those obeyed, and those broken. As such, it is also about turning expectations on their heads (expectations are a kind of rule, after all). Henry advises Betty to forgive Sally (“I’m supposed to reward her?”) and everyone advises Roger to forgive the Japanese. In the end, Honda forgives SCDP.
Traditional Japanese culture provides connective tissue between shame and forgiveness on the one hand, and rules and gamesmanship on the other. It’s a rules-driven culture in which shame plays an important role. The Honda executives create a game for the Americans to play. With World War II behind them and the Honda car ahead of them, they stand in the middle heralding the changes in the world of 1965. They say that the rules as we know them can and will be broken (Japan and America are no longer enemies) but must not be broken (CG&C doesn’t get the account).
Broken rules and game-playing: Don first suggests breaking Honda’s rules, then plays a game of faking out CG&C, then uses Honda’s own rule-breaking to win the whole shebang. He figured out how to win at breaking the rules by studying them closely (notice he was reading when Betty called—reminiscent of him reading Exodus to study up on Rachel in S1). Sally, on the other hand, has no idea what the rules are, and therefore pays a high price for breaking them. There’s also Faye Miller’s admission that her marriage is a game (and now we all have to go back and edit our references to her “engagement” ring, don’t we?).
Upended expectations: Henry turns out to be really wise and decent, and Betty softens when we don’t expect her to. Don is a dick at exactly the moment where we think he might not be (with Phoebe), and breaks his own rules when we don’t imagine he will. Remember how Don berated Peggy for her Sugarberry stunt? Now he’s created a stunt that makes that one look pure and innocent. Don complains about people’s propensity for confession to Dr. Miller (of all people) and then offers one of the most stunningly honest bits of confessional truth we’ve ever seen from him.
One of the things we’re seeing this season is that episodes are both profoundly intimate and yet broadly cultural. How lovely, then, that something as intimate as masturbation is juxtaposed with a cultural touchstone like The Man From U.N.C.L.E. The intimate/culture intersection is spelled out in TCatS: We break the rules and are ashamed, but we break the rules and we win. We just have to know which is which, but it’s 1965, and nobody really knows.
97 Responses to “The Shame and the Sword”
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You are brilliantly insightful & articulate. I am so glad I finally found this web site. Since I have you have deepened my appreciation of each episode.
I believe CG&C didn't get the account for more than the reason that they broke the rules; they didn't get the account because the Japanese executives viewed the finished work and therefore dishonored themselves. If Don hadn't called them on the dishonor and walked away, returning their money, they might have given the first crack at the car business to CG&C. It was important not just that they were shamed, but that there was an audience for it. Don played the role of the audience.
In Betty's case, she was shamed because the other woman – the little girl's mother – played the role of audience not just to Sally, but to Betty herself. Betty's line about that woman spreading it all over the neighborhood increased the audience, and thus the shame Betty was feeling.
For Don, Miss Blankenship's loud voice ensured an audience of people he had to work with.
The book that the episode is named after made the presence of an audience an integral part of the successful shaming, and the episode did that quite well. Even Ted got shamed in front of the filmmaker when Smitty said that Don was a genius.
Oh, and I have a personal confession to add. I was originally brought out to Hollywood many moons ago to write for The Man from U.N.C.L.E., and I got to spend time on the set. It was such an unexpected joy to see the scene from that show. It gives me another reason to love MM!
The Honda story was brilliant, but I'm still a bit puzzled by Don's victory. How, exactly, does CG&C's transgression become a shameful lapse on Honda's part? How does Don successfully pin the blame for CG&C's "rule breaking" on the client? Why don't the Honda executives simply take the position that they are not responsible for what CG&C did?
I'm not complaining about the story; obviously it's based on a legitimate understanding of Japanese mores. I'm just not quite sure WHY Don is correct in laying the blame for CG&C's overdone presentation on them, and why they accept it.
Your post was well worth waiting for. I was so gobsmacked by this episode last night that I read seven or eight reviews that came out right away. Most of them had errors of fact (you can tell the age of writers who didn't recognize The Man From U.N.C.L.E.).
I just remembered that fact that in the first or second season Roger told Don that his daughter was seeing a shrink. So is Don doomed to become Roger, will he also marry a teenager who can't handle her liquor?
Great post, thank you! Couldn't agree more about Peggy on the Honda at the sound stage–my favorite image of the season, hands down!
Great one-liners, too: "Not very subtle, are they?" "No, they are not." and one that I must somehow work into conversation: "Christ on a cracker!" Love love love.
I do appreciate your comments on Betty & Henry. I am one of those who think that it's way too easy & too obvious to vilify Betty. Yes, she's a detached & incompetent mother. We all get it. However, January Jones is so brilliantly nuanced in her role, and so beautifully understated, that Betty is too often dismissed as "evil" or "mean". As if any character on this show is so one-note. Before we rush to label her, let's all remember not only what Betty has been through, but who she used to be: the wistful, longing, naive housewife in Season 1, unhappy & unfulfilled, but still desperate to realize what she had been promised. Remember how she spoke to her former roommate/turned high-dollar call girl friend? About having a little girl and a little boy? She bought into the fantasy of playing house with a handsome prince and living happily ever after, and I'm telling you, she ain't the only one! What else was she to expect? And she's seen her fragile illusions of marital happiness and intimacy come crashing down around her–is it any wonder that she's become increasingly bitter? Betty is a woman trying vainly to live up to society's expectations for her: to be beautiful, to be interesting, to be the perfect hostess, to be in the Junior League–only to discover that that woman is a myth. (Hmm, sounds eerily familiar…) No, Betty is not a good mother. But neither is she a monster. She's a frighteningly human character, which is what we all love about this show.
Never been a Henry fan (has anyone?), but he did show some discernment and balance this episode. He managed to handle Betty better than Don ever did, and deserves credit for his skillful reasoning with her.
On that note, check out this remarkably insightful review:
http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/p…
Finally, the interaction between Faye & Don was particularly intriguing. After declaring that people want nothing more than to bare their souls to an interested stranger, Faye does just that by confessing to her wedding ring ruse. And Don reciprocates by articulating what is, in my mind, the most painfully honest statement of the season: that he misses his kids, that he doesn't know what to do with them, that he's relieved to drop them off, and that then he misses them. Ouch. So both of these guarded people reveal something deeply personal about themselves to an "interested stranger". Though she grated on me at first, I've grown to admire Faye's intelligence and gutsiness, and I think I'm not the only one.
#3 – The Japanese culture is in many ways alien to our own. Honor and saving face are of major importance. If the Honda executives had thrown CG&C out of the conference room when it was clear they had disregarded the rules for the presentation, Don would not have had a leg to stand on. Don was taking a risk, and it paid off. Don was, it seems, betting that the Honda people would not shame Ted by refusing to look at the commercial.
One of the indications of this kind of thinking was when Pete handed the wrapped gift to the lead executive and said, "Open it." Bert immediately jumped in to head that off, and probably was horrified that he hadn't warned Pete about it in advance. In Japanese society, it's terrible manners to ask someone to open a gift, because if they don't like it, they still have to pretend they do to try to keep the giver from losing face, and thus they are dishonored by having to lie about it. The entire situation is to be avoided at all costs. Pete blundered right into it.
Just as for Betty, sometimes it seems appearances are everything, so for the Japanese. Appearances are vitally important.
I have a friend who keeps Kosher. He went to a business meeting that a Japanese colleague arranged for a number of people, and at that meeting, sushi was served. My friend could not refuse to eat without shaming (dishonoring) his host in front of others, and so he bit more than the bullet. His rabbi told him he had done the right thing.
By holding them to their own rules, Don showed the Japanese that he understood their culture better than the other company, and I think that's one of the reasons SCDP was first choice.
Pele, thanks for the explanation. You've provided the missing piece, that I didn't understand: the idea that the Honda executives were caught in a Catch-22.
Do I have this right? They couldn't refuse to watch the CG&C presentation without shaming CG&C, but they couldn't watch it without dishonoring SCDP.
JordanOrlando – you're most of the way there. They couldn't refuse to watch the presentation without shaming CG&C, but they couldn't watch it without dishonoring themselves. That's the key. And Don giving them the $3000 back was rubbing salt in the wound.
Pele, thanks; that's really fascinating.
Somebody elsewhere on this site pointed out the faux pas of giving them a cantaloupe, which is very expensive in Japan but not in New York. The moment Pete tells them what it is, they scramble to give the cantaloupe to the translator (since its LOCAL monetary value is less than the bottles of scotch).
Interesting that Don's apparent understanding of their cultural mores is more important to them than anything having to do with Roger's insults or with the quality of the CG&C ad (which might have been quite good).
Deb, terrific.
This is the post I kept trying to start and could not move to coherence. Yours is awesome.
Pele, big thanks for your insights on Japanese culture and the gift giving ceremony. My mother-in-law is Japanese, and while the gifting habit is one she has learned to Americanize through hard experience here, the small but necessary touches are still so important.
Thanks too to iheartburt for the link to the Sepinwall recap. I did not catch the fact that Don paid the Honda execs their money back by personal check. This would have made their experience of shame much sharper — and heightened their opinion of Don, as the man who spotted the inconsistency in their approach.
Great work, all.
Really an amazing analysis to hands down one of the best episodes of the series.
It can be said that Don wasn't necessarily breaking his code when he was fooling CG&C; indeed, the thrill was comparable only to the end of last season when they were going behind PP&L's back. I think it's fair game to get rid of the competition in a shaming way. Especially if they're a pain in the arse like Ted Chaough. So there's a difference between this and the Sugarberry stunt: Peggy and Pete had to go out on a limb and leave some of the crucial elements of the whole scheme to paid actors, and it went wrong in an expected way due to circumstances they couldn't control. Don was in complete control (and responsibility). He was like a military tactician and was in charge of the maneuver; when he had to employ a decoy, even he (the director) wasn't aware of what was happening. War was one of the themes as well so I don't think that was accidental. It made the Sugarberry stunt look like child's play.
Good points all above.
I think it's an interesting choice for Weiner to make this particular book an integral part of the Mad Men story, because the book itself after receiving an early positive acceptance, signified especially by the capitalist standards of copies sold, is now regarded by more than a few people as well-written, watered down racism and elitism.
Don't get me wrong here, the broad issues highlighted in the book are very much germane to an episode's apparent themes of shame and guilt and forgiveness and honor.
However the book itself, (though very readable, (it's on Google books), and seemingly reasonable and tolerable in a commonly perceived liberal sense of those terms) in the reality of the time, worked to fortify the already deeply held Western (and arguably racist) belief that the Japanese actually were the inscrutable Other that they had always been depicted as during the early half of the twentieth century and thru the war. The book provided a cover of scholarly legitmacy for the accepted prejudices and biases that underpinned the stance that Japan as the Other was a conflicted and fundamentally illogical culture and therefore needed to be defeated and occupied and re-educated by the more civilized and enlightened Western American victors.
If we choose to look at Don Draper here as a general meta-symbol for America, which on one level he always is, then it's an interesting and provocative idea to show him quickly learning just enough about the structure and specific customs of another people's culture in order to manuever them into a position that he can take advantage of.
We should be discussing this episode for decades.
I watched this episode for the third time last night, and am now worried about THREE references to death in a short span of time. Might be foreshadowing of something to come?
1. Phoebe says, "Your father is REALLY going to kill me." If I were Sally's age, and felt the fear that she feels these days, I would believe her (not that she thinks Don is a murderer, but 10 year olds are not as rational as we think).
2. Betty says she wishes Don were dead.
3. Pete is removing mums from the office because they are a Japanese symbol of death.
Who's going???? Roger? Henry? I sure hope this doesn't turn into a soap opera who done it.
As always, so much to reflect on between the show's own brilliance and Deborah's insightful analysis. I love it!
With all the discussion about the notion of privacy in our digital age and the increasingly blurred line between what is public and private online, I was struck by how the characters are trying to walk this line both personally and professionally. Deborah and others remarked on the way the rules of the Honda competition dictated public vs private actions and on the unexpected candor of Don and Faye's shared "confessions" in the office kitchen. Of course, Mad Men has always been rich in secrets — from Don's identity and infidelities to Peggy's pregnancy — but here I see characters grappling with what "rights" to privacy they have (we are still almost a decade before Roe v Wade would legalize abortion based on the right to privacy).
Sally was shamed (by Betty and the other mother) for doing what she did in "public" when I would have said she believed she was being quite private about it (her friend seemed to be either deeply immersed in The Man from UNCLE or dozing off at the other end of the sofa, in a darkened room) until the friend's mom surprised her (and, it was implied by the movement of her hands on the long nightgown, not even with her proverbial pants down!) Earlier Don chastised the babysitter for not "watching her all the time," leaving 10-year-old Sally to free to be alone in the bathroom, where she cut her own hair. Betty fretted that Sally's private transgression would soon be public knowledge when the other mom blabbed (good thing Facebook and texting hadn't been invented!) Finally, Betty seemed surprised when Dr Edna told her that what Sally discussed in therapy would remain confidential (but then relieved that what she herself told Dr Edna would also remain private — as opposed to the way the therapist she saw in S1 had reported everything back to Don!)
A brilliant observation Deborah ! I love this blog and consider it MadMen's companion!
Thanks for providing the handbook.
Great post. Just want to caution against getting too hung up on the "breaking the rules" part. My experience living and working in Japan is that people often set down rules to see whether you will stick to them. Granted as an American woman I got a lot of leeway, but I found the rules were generally set by the middle managers, not the men at the top. There was always a way to push back and get my Japanese business counterparts to be more flexible. You usually have a higher authority (aka "go to guy") who can wave his hand and dispense with the rules.
That seems to be what happened with Don. He pointed out the others broke the rules, gave back the check, and the top Japanese executive most likely said, "This is our guy." He'd have the authority to do so.
Yes, there is a difference between an American cantelope and a Japanese melon! To someone who knows Japan, it was laugh out loud funny.
I found it interesting that a Japanese-theme on MM hit the day after our house guest of 3 weeks went back to his home in Japan. Because of our family's proximity to a large university, even tho we're not affiliated w/said university, we're often asked to host professionals who attend said university's English language program (sometimes it's accountants from Latin America, sometimes accountants from Japan). While it doesn't dovetail into anything specific on the show (and I apologize for my tangent), our 29-year-old guest was absolutely *floored* at how our family dynamics worked. Granted, we tried our best to say that a woman who didn't take her spouse's name was relatively common, that two people can find common ground when they did *not* share a common religion, and that we would tease each other mercilessly. Our guest felt our dynamic was that of a 'strong team' rather than how his very young bride and he – and their respective parents' marriages – worked (ie, very top-down & patriarchal). He explained how he, as eldest son, and his very pregnant bride, as only child, would be responsible for two sets of parents soon…how the rules dictated his role, and he would be shamed if he didn't follow said rules…and he wanted absolutely *no* part of changing that in his generation.
He was also flabbergasted that my daughter's father was in the room when she was born and that he saw her before I did. He couldn't understand why someone would want to 'interfere'…I tried to explain that we felt it worked for our 'team' because it strengthened it and perhaps even earned me a wee bit of respect for all that 'hard work'.
While not a work relationship with this charming young man, it afforded us the opportunity to continually practice his English-language skills as we shared stories of how our cultures defined family, parenting, and caring for the elderly.
Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion.
#18 Judy, have you ever watched Tokyo Story? It is one of the masterpieces of Japanese cinema and available here. It beautifully explains family dynamics (obligation does not equal love).
One piece of news apparently not mentioned here yet: it appears that Sally is not a "little lesbian" after all! Won't Betty be pleased!
Pele, your understanding about an audience really deepens my post. Wish I'd thought of it.
iheartburt, great insight about Betty. We love Alan Sepinwall's reviews, that's why they're linked in the Blogroll.
less of me, great reading of the use of the book and its cultural context.
Valleygirl, we've seen references to death in past seasons that had us all SURE it was foreshadowing, and so far, that hasn't turned out.
Jan, great remarks about privacy.
Tom, I actually thought the opposite. Don immediately asked if Sally masturbated in front of a boy or a girl — they're still questioning her sexuality.
Valley Girl – I was on a message board and one of the posters noted the same death references. Funny how they seem so clear now that they have been pointed out! Good call! Now that I really think about it – there were also the references to losing friends during the war, and Joan speaking about Gregg going into the service.
If my fuzzy memory is correct – Betty spoke similar words last season. About wanting to kill Don. While I think they would be words many would speak in the same situation, I no longer take any repeated references for granted.
Deb – your high quality insights persist – superb post!
I loved all the instances of ritual or acting that you refer to. There was the very elaborate ritual of just giving the gift to the Honda execs ("I cannot accept." "Please." "Thank you.") – over the top formality and script adherence. And a great way to show how much preparation Pete had done for the meeting.
And then Bert's description of the post-meeting gifts and the strict rules.
This was mirrored by the ritual of Betty's apology when confronted by Sally's friend's mom. Betty straightened her robe and apologized for her and for Sally – saying what she knew the mother wanted to hear. The mother was over-playing it, but knew she had all the cards. She could have been a little less formal (even for 1965), but she thought she felt entitled to a show of contrition.
Plus, I don't know about anyone else, but I cannot watch a scene with a group of Japanese businessmen in a meeting and NOT think about the movie "Gung Ho"!
Gee whiz, you'd think people's notions of "normal behavior" were socially constructed or something. Whatta concept.
(bracing self for comments on my post later)
Wow, Deb, this is great stuff. Thanks.
they’re still questioning her sexuality.
Don and Betty might be, but Sally isn't! Illya Kuryakin! {{{swoon}}}
I love Miss Blankenship serving as Don's very public shaming by Joan.
I don't really think Betty's one-time crack about Sally becoming "a little lesbian" means it's an ongoing concern of hers, and certainly not of Don's. Don's question about whether Sally was masturbating in front of a girl or boy struck me as a reasonable request for more, and relevant, information. Was she playing doctor? Experimenting with a boy? These would be legitimate questions for a concerned parent to try to find out.
I also think Betty's upbringing, particularly her judgmental mother, imbued her with the all-too-typical sexual repression of the time. Sally's been curious about sex from early in the series, and Betty watching her precocious daughter come of age sexually is having a really hard time. Some of that's pretty normal, but it has that unhappy overlay of the mores of the time ("fast girls" masturbate, it's something you grow out of).
B.Cooper and Meowser made me think of a follow-up to what I put up earlier.
Benedict's book was interpreted by many to imply that the Japanese morality regarding shame and guilt was so foreign and unconnected and, frankly, inferior to the accepted Western sensibilities; when in actuality, as the Weiner-god has illustrated this week, the differences in our respective cultural moralities are really just differences in the types of approved rituals and customs that we use to enforce and forgive the same shame and guilt.
Where's this Meowser post? I'm hooked on the subject now.
Did anyone else notice that Betty said, to Dr. Edna, "I mostly grew out of it", or am I just remembering incorrectly? I found that very interesting, especially since the writer(s) could have gone without the "mostly".
I'm suprised no one has yet mentioned Don's "call to California" that Miss Blankenship keeps trying, but no one is answering (I don't follow the live chat during the show though). I assume it is Anna and the fact that she's not answering is concerning. Perhaps the death references are for her?
Also, as a student in counseling, I found it _fascinating_ to observe the distinct differences between Dr. Edna and Betty's psychoanalyst from season one. If anyone can help Betty, this lady can!
Having worked in Japan for many years, I agree that business rules can be broken, as long as it's kept private. Another reason they may have rejected Ted — Honda was not going to leave Grey, so they may have perceived Ted as a fool for wasting money on a spec commercial.
Don's personal check (which I mentioned Sunday night) was a slap of epic proportions.
The gift giving (and not opening the gifts) was a nice contrast to Lee, Jr.'s graphic use of the Polaroid.
Love the new blog subtitle!
I also think Betty’s upbringing, particularly her judgmental mother, imbued her with the all-too-typical sexual repression of the time. Sally’s been curious about sex from early in the series, and Betty watching her precocious daughter come of age sexually is having a really hard time. Some of that’s pretty normal, but it has that unhappy overlay of the mores of the time (“fast girls” masturbate, it’s something you grow out of).
I was thinking exactly the same thing as I was reading Deborah's post. We've known since S1 that Betty associates a great amount of shame with her beauty and sexuality. She shyly confessed to Don in S1 how sexually attracted to him she was and how much she enjoyed "doing it" (to use Sally's phrase), but she did so in their bedroom, IIRC at night. We know her mother called her a "whore" for merely modeling, and then we learn her mother also shamed her brother for the nudist magazine – perhaps even more sternly because he had shown the dirty book to his innocent sister. Betty clearly associates sex with shame, and reacted so strongly to Sally because of that. I felt so sorry for Sally then, because I'm guessing she doesn't even completely understand what she did wrong. Does anyone really think that Betty has had "the talk" with Sally, or would have mentioned masturbation if she had?
I also find it interesting that MW and the writers chose to juxtapose the shame of Roger's bigotry – and his related feeling of shame to be doing work with the Japanese – with the images of Reverand James Reed, a white minister who had traveled to Selma for the march to Montgomery, and whose murder was one of those Civil Rights Movement moments that really hit the whole country. It seemed to me that, rather than tackle the issue of race relations in the US directly, they are, once again, alluding to it through the Japanese clients, and the broader basis of bigotry on which the country operated – much like the introduction of Menken's in S1.
Not only is Faye's fake marriage a game; it's a way of saving face. She can accomplish her goal of avoiding workplace entanglements without offending men. They can say to themselves, "She's not rejecting me because I'm ugly/stupid/smelly; it's just because she's already married." And she doesn't have to say a word to do it.
I echo CPT_Doom's astute observation @#32
It seems a novel (imo) idea to broach racism and prejudice from this oblique angle rather than the most direct way the era of the show would have led us to expect.
It makes sense from the order in which business and advertising would have been encountering the issue, our civil rights movement had to filter from the populace up through the money rather down from the top. They really won't have to deal with it a work for a while, Madison Ave was still pretty insulated in 1965.
Wow, so many fascinating observations and comments. Thansk so much Pele and others for all of the added context on Japanese society and less of me for the info on the book and critiques of it. And Meowser, yes, you are right about our socially constructed mores (personally I think pretty much ALL humans are crazy and the strangest animals on the planet b/c we live in so many various ways so removed from the rest of the animal kingdom, but that is a whole other discussion).
Great post, Deb.
#28 Rebecca
"Did anyone else notice that Betty said, to Dr. Edna, “I mostly grew out of it”, or am I just remembering incorrectly? I found that very interesting, especially since the writer(s) could have gone without the “mostly”."
I'm with you, Rebecca. I watched the episode again last night and I don't know what Betty is talking about. Grew out of masturbating? Seems a bit of a revelation for Betty to make to a stranger, no?
Those of us who are not fans of Betty Francis do not 'hate' her. Her character is very one note-she's a child who lives in her Daddy Will Save Me dream world and will never grow from that perspective. The writers on MM said themselves that they write this character from the perspective that she will never change her narrow outlook on life. From a modern perspective that makes her really boring. What is there to anticipate from Betty? She will just slide into a caricature of the Grand Old Dame as Freddy might say, with her callow racism, utter cluelessness about nurturing, and empty headed chatter that belies her Bryn Mawr education. The heart of MM is at the office, and dealing with Don's dark journey/task of 'moving forward'. Betty is a stagnant contrast to that, and that's why she is intolerable to fans who are gleeful when there is a Betty-free episode. Now that she's found her new daddy why do we need to see Betty at all? Just hand Sally over to Don and Betty will at last be out of our hair.
Great post! I don't think there are that many disagreement about this episode and what it represents.
I do want to point out (and others might have noticed this, too) that we (the audience) know for what exactly Sally was doing, and I believe that her actions gets exaggerated as the episode goes on. From the behind the scenes commentary, Matt Weiner says Sally was indeed masturbating. But in the episode, all we see is Sally parting her legs a little and maybe reaching towards that region (she might needed to scratch an itch), and the camera pans on to her face. Obviously, they could never film or show a child actor doing that act, but we only get confirmation for what is happening when the mom confronts Betty.
If I remember correctly, the mom says Sally was doing it in front of her daughter (i.e. in public). What she failed to mention was that her daughter was asleep, so Sally probably thought she was in a private environment. I think, from what was shown, Sally was probably just curiously touching herself, but as the story gets passed, it becomes exaggerated: the mom tells Betty that Sally was playing with herself, and what Betty tells Don makes it sound like Sally was acting like she stood up and did it in a crowded theater. It all goes back to needing an audience in order for it to be shame, and Sally's real shame was getting caught. So was CG&C's, because Don caught them (well, they also bragged about it). Ironically, CG&C thought they had "caught" SCDP doing a commercial and tried to shame them by doing a better one.
If one of the Japanophiles can help: it seemed odd to me that the Japanese would openly correct Pete's error of giving the senior executive the melon. Wouldn't they have done that later in private in order not to shame Pete? Or did they shame him on purpose?
Maybe at the same time they're trying so hard to get all the rules correct, they're also indulging in schadenfreude. Perhaps it explains why they have those game shows about humiliating contestants in the most outrageous ways.
"There are rules. And there are other rules."–Cooper, New Amsterdam, Season 1.
What an awesome episode. The plot line about the reluctance of some ad agencies to take Japanese clients is based on several true stories, but if you're interested, I highly recommend mad man Jerry Della Famina's classic 1970 memoir "From Those Wonderful Folks Who Brought You Pearl Harbor."
Henry tells Betty, "Punishment will make it worse." How long does violence escalate and loop back when we continue to punish those who have punished us? Betty and Roger have a lot of similarities here. And I'm going to come out in defense of capitalism because I think Less of Me has it completely wrong. If anything, this episode shows how the wheels of commerce can forge ties and bring even enemies together. Roger's unwillingness to forgive the past and to move on is overcome by the needs of the firm. If he maintains his hatred, they'll all be out of work and bankrupt.
The truth about capitalism is that in the long run bigots lose. The truth about capitalism is that brings distant and unconnected people together.
Now I'm not saying it's perfect. But let's not forget some of its virtues.
And oh yeah–At some point I hope Dark Peggy chimes in on Faye Miller. Your thoughts about her last week were vindicated!
personally, I look forward to Dark Peggy's thoughts on anything. One of many posters that keep me coming back
More on privacy… What are the rules for confidentiality if a counselor discovers a law has been broken?
If Betty were to disclose "Don's secret" during a therapy session, would Dr. Edna be obligated to contact authorities?
Betty's scene with Dr. Edna was fascinating on many levels. Fascinating in that Mad Men kind of way. This may yet turn into a post on its own, but the thing that stood out to me was the exchange about the confidentiality of the meetings.
Betty asks if Dr. Edna will share what Sally talks about with her. It's a reasonable question on its face – a mother's question, since Betty will not be present. The answer is 'no,' nor will she share what Betty says with Sally.
Betty's response: "Oh, that's better."
Better than what? They weren't comparing it to anything. Except we know that Betty was comparing it. Can you ask for a show with more depth?
B. Cooper – Yes! I loved that! It might go over the heads of people who didn't see Season 1, but those of us who did got such a payoff!
Isn't it a little over the top to keep calling Roger a "bigot" and using the word "hatred"? He was out of line barging into the meeting and popping off, since he'd been asked to stay out of it, but he has his reasons for resenting his company choosing to kiss Japanese ass (even though yes, kissing ass is his job description).
Very smug to call him a "bigot" for it I think.
# 38:
Great point. The business of shame (in contrast with guilt) seems to carry forward the big theme of the season, which is "what I really want vs. what is expected of me".
Based on Wikipedia, the book referenced in the title defines shame as deviating from a cultural role. It is a person not doing what is expected of them in front of an audience. Without the audience, it is possible to say that "this never happened". It is no wonder Don got the Japanese so quickly.
It was interesting to note how many times people stated their expectations of others and in what terms. Don told Phoebe that he might as well have left the kids alone. Betty told Don exactly the same thing in the very next scene. Henry told Betty that a divorced dad was supposed to keep his time with the kids "sacrosanct".
John – #45 – it's not really out of line.
The sentiments behind "little yellow friends" and "Jap crap" are pretty clear.
We can discuss the reasoning behind Roger's bigotry, and levels of justification based on his experience, but I don't think we can deny its presence.
Great post! The title of it makes me think about Betty's shame and how she deals with it. Betty is deeply ashamed about many things — most particularly her marriage to Don and now Sally's behavior and how this causes disruption to her new life with Henry. She does not, however, bottle up the shame — it's coming out in the form of anger, physical action (slapping Sally in the face), and wishes or threats of physical violence (wishing Don dead; threatening to cut off Sally's fingers). So, in a sense, Betty's anger is a "sword" that she uses against Don and perhaps to an even greater extent against Sally. Henry wisely counsels Betty to try forgiveness, but forgiveness is not something that comes naturally to Betty. And Betty has caused Sally to feel shame too — about the divorce, the quick remarriage, and now her body and all the confusion that surrounds puberty and growing up. It will be interesting to see how Sally deals with this — will talking things out with Dr. Edna be enough of an outlet or will there be other ways that Sally deals with her feelings?
Somewhere on another thread some raised the question of why Don would go on a date with Bethany rather than spend some quality time with his kids. My reading is that he really wanted to check out Benihana's for business reasons and needed a date. Time was of the essense to do some "cultural" digging (such as it is if you're going to Benihana's) if it was going to shed any light on his prospective clients. Obviously his competition had the same thing in mind as he was there himself.
I took "Jap crap" to refer to Japan's reputation as a manufacturer of cheap merchandise, which was their well-deserved rep throughout the postwar years and certainly still the case in 1965. It's hard for me not to feel empathetic to Roger; most people of his age would have felt the same way in 1965 and for years afterward. Forgiveness is one thing; having to kowtow is another. That the show makes him seem like an anachronistic oddball for it rings false. Nobody else agrees with him, or even seems to comprehend his view. Way too early for that in '65. Then again, "bigotry" aside, maybe that's where they're going with Roger. He becomes a dinosaur before our eyes, and the world now belongs to Pete Campbell. That's a fairly solid description of the '60s, now that I think about it.
@ #20 I was thinking the same thing. If Betty had known Sally was aroused by a young man on t.v. she'd probably feel better about the whole thing.
I try really hard to stay at least somewhat sympathetic to Betty, but slapping Sally for cutting her hair was pretty OTT, even for Betty.
@49 That's not a bad idea. Isn't it sad that he didn't even think of taking his children. How much fun they would have had. I suppose children at a restaurant like that, even older children like Sally & Bobby, weren't the norm.
I SUSPECT from little cues in the episode – which I freely admit could be interpreted in other ways – that Sally had wanted to cut her hair before, and Betty had told her no.
#42 – thelma – I know what the laws of confidentiality are now, but I don't know if they were the same in 1965 (and in New York). Confidentiality in the case of doctor or therapist/patient, clergy/congregation and lawyer/client are sacrosanct and only cease in case of death. Officially. However, if a professional knows that a patient or client is going to harm either themselves or another and does nothing, that professional incurs a liability which could be exploited through the courts. In other words, if a therapist knows that a patient is suicidal or homicidal and does nothing, that can have huge ramifications. Whether it does or not depends. If a child in therapy reveals that he or she is being abused and the therapist does nothing, that can also have huge ramifications.
Betty disclosing Don's secret does not appear to fall under the category of physical harm, and thus it would be covered by laws of confidentiality. My personal feeling is that Betty would be shamed by the revelation that she was married to and had three children by a man she didn't know, from a background that she finds degrading, and thus she is less likely to disclose it.
For some reason, I keep remembering when Betty bought that beautiful yellow two-piece suit (Jantzen, anyone?) and Don shamed her into taking it off so that no one would see her in it.
#52 Jules: It might not have been the norm exactly, but it did happen. My folks took me to BeniHanna (sp?) in the late 60's and I was hardly the only kid there, and believe you me we were ALL on our best behavior or we wouldn't get to go again. At that time it was the only Japanese eatery around and it seemed so exotic and swank, I felt special just being there. Sadly, I'm sure it never crossed Don's mind to take them there.
Great posts and lots to think about.
Translation played a large part in this episode as well. Not only do we have a Japanese to English translator, we have Burt Cooper providing translation about how the Japanese think and operate.
Henry is trying to guide Betty as she deals with her daughter’s behavior. Thanks to Henry’s “translation” of Sally’s behavior, Sally seems to be on her way to receiving the help that she sorely needs.
Phoebe tried to translate Sally’s feelings to Don, but Don would have none of it.
On the other hand, Don’s conversation with Faye gave a rare glimpse of Don actually opening up. He seems willing to learn from Faye.
Finally, Dr. Edna holds the promise of being a very capable translator, guiding Sally, and maybe even Betty, through the choppy emotional waters of growing up and dealing with divorce.
Loved this episode.
# 49 bestbets — Rock on!! Indeed, didn't anyone else get that Benihana's was chock-a-butcher block with ad dudes and their stylishly turned-out arm candy, just in case the visiting Honda execs showed up for dinner? "How much you wanna bet all these other guys are J. Walter Thompson?" (sic) from Ted to Don…
# 53 Melissa — I agree. Betty, as has been pointed out before, looks upon her children's obvious physical beauty as an extension of her own. I believe it was the author Colette's mother who slapped her daughter as a small child for falling down and hurting herself, yelling, "How dare you ruin something I have made!"
Oh, Mrs. Blenkenship… how I love you… and how I love the fact she did announce that she finds Don sleeping on his office couch, just as I predicted! I'm telling you, Don's getting his mojo back is in part in the hopes of Joan forgiving him enough to let him have another crack at the steno pool…
First rate ep, can't wait for more!
#39 Donnybrook, the gift giving rule is that you exchange them at the end of a meeting and then you open them in private. You don't ever say, "it's a cantaloupe!" or "it's lacquerware!"
#55 Kturk, the chef at the first Benihana's in NYC, Rocky Aoki, was one of the first celebrity chefs in NYC. He'd be on a par with any of the Iron Chefs today. The restaurant was on West 56th Street, and opened in 1964, so Don would be taking Bethany to a very hip place. I also expect that someday soon they'll be dining at Trader Vic's in the Plaza Hotel, which opened in 1965.
In last week's episode Ken Cosgrove made a reference to "retards", and in this week's episode Bobby said Sally looked like a "Mongoloid". This made me wonder if this is foreshadowing that Pete and Trudy's child might be born with some type of disability…????
Deborah,
what's great about this place is how it's a springboard for so many wonderful wonderful posts. your own ideas are so eloquently stated (and so beautifully succinct) that they (like Ilya) can't help but fire up the imagination. thanx for depriving yourself of other corrupting ideas and giving us the benefit of your insight.
Pele, thanx as well for your very informative posts.
i don't think Japaneese culture has been revealed this much (on tv) since Shogun. i studied Okinawan karate many years ago and let me tell ya, a lot of people besides Roger hated the pre-WWII Japanese.
#38, Your Majesty, great post but you stopped just short of connecting the final two dots … CG&C also got caught masturbating (when you consider a spec ad nothing but a masturbatory act) your whole post lead me to that conclusion.
speaking of which, as a pre-pubescent watching tv in the 60's i remember the very first time i "felt funny down there". it was watching Edyie Gorme on Ed Sullivan. she was singing while wearing a very low cut gown. it must have been very hot in the studio because there were beads of persperation gathering around the small of her neck; one of them made a break down her chest and curved ever so slowly around her breast before disappearing deep into her cleavage. i was so fascinated by that bead of sweat that i didn't notice how aroused i had become. Ed Sullivan was a family show and we watched tv exactly like Sally does, ie, on the floor in front of mom & dad, so i had to get up very awkawardly and stumble out to the bathroom under the pretense of having "to go."
it wasn't until a couple of years later that i knew what to do about that funny feeling, but that's what playing doctor was for, wasn't it?
Dark Peggy,
when Faye sheepishly admitted that ring was a phony, i thought of you yelling at the tv: "AHA!! I knew it!!!"
Pele, great analysis. Here is my two bits:
"A man is whatever room he is standing in." The moment Don refused to make his presentation and returned the Honda money, he is a Samurai, not a Gaijin. You nailed it – he UNDERSTANDS. Not only does he do what is expected (resign after Roger's insults), he shames them for not honoring their own code (as you and many others have observed).
Complete aside – I was half expecting Mr. Saito, the Honda executive, to address Don as "Bond-san". You Only Live Twice was published in 64 and the Japanese industrialist/Spectre agent was named Osato, almost an anagram.
B. Cooper et al,
I think it is fair to label Roger a bigot based on his comments alone. I did, however, see a lot of real pain behind them, and this disorders my modern definition of what a bigot is. So I'm really uncomfortable using it in this context.
However, I should also add that I thought race really played a role in this episode. It wasn't just present in Roger's off-color (pun intended) comments: it was in other lines as well.
"You look like a Mongoloid!"
"Well, if it isn't the inscrutable Don Draper." (I am married to a half-Japanese man, have many Asian friends and relatives, and "inscrutable" is one of the adjectives the better-spoken of the racists tend to use.)
These, Don's treatment of the Honda team in his presentation, and the line about the chopsticks (they're hard to use?), made me wonder how viewers might have reacted if a Black, Latino, or female client had suffered the same treatment throughout an episode.
Really thought-provoking stuff.
#40 Kisses in the Hallway — my lunch break is so ruined.
I'm a bit perplexed. I had to re-read what I typed first to be sure and now I have to disagree with your disagreement about what I wrote.
I didn't actually say enough about capitalism in this thread to get anything "completely wrong" about it and I didn't read anything that unfairly bashes capitalism.
I will readily admit I do slap capitalism around from time to time, whenever it asks for it. It doesn't pay me for this service, but nearly every day if I listen closely to the static, I can usually hear — "harder . . . again". Of course, this may just reflect my personal experience with it or I may be super-sensitive to these things; but I understand, as the internet likes to say, "your mileage may vary" and I can accept that.
However I must make note that these truths about capitalism do clearly explain themselves.
"The truth about capitalism is that in the long run bigots lose."
[this is absolutely correct --1865 slavery ends; 1964 desegregated lunch counters, "so sorry about the wait for your turkey club."]
The truth about capitalism is that it brings distant and unconnected people together.
[this is correct again --my ISP service rep picks up the phone in Bangalore]
Sorry to be that overly sarcastic, but I obviously don't agree with your points. I truly mean no personal offense. I just wanted to defend my comments here. Maybe we can meet half-way, on this perhaps, — for the record, I believe capitalism has been a powerful mechanism sometimes utilized by men and, fairly just recently by women, to occasionally make some positive changes for some people in their current world.
Strangely, I know it's hard to believe, I was having this exact same discussion with my sister after watching "TV's Funniest Bloopers." Hardly seems possible. Peace.
So many good thoughts here – hard to know where to begin. I have noticed what I think may be a trend: On MM when the ideas are really big it can come at the expense of the characters.
One of the things I love about MM is the depth of the characters but mostly I love the themes and ideas – the symbols and motifs that hold the show together and allow us to think and discuss for weeks and months. Let’s face it, plot takes a big ol’ back seat to character and the large symbolic and thematic connectors running through the fabric of the drama. To my thinking it is the primary thing separating MM from the rest of TV.
That said, (and I expect to get slapped like Sally for saying this) I thought the characters were written just a bit clumsy this week. The themes are huge and discussed wonderfully above but early on Roger came off too over the top for me but redeemed himself with the great scene with Joan. Betty switched gears too quickly both with Henry and Dr. Edna – this did not resemble the very crafty and more complex Betty of earlier seasons. Above all, while I do like the comedy, I’m tired of Mrs. Blankenship. SCDP’s life is at stake here and they have hobbled their best horse with her – it’s just not washing anymore. This is nitpicking I know. As Deb has pointed out, this show is ten times better running on three cylinders than anything else running on all eight!
On the shame different topic, I think Betty’s hang up is just a bit off from shame – I think its public embarrassment and humiliation which is a slightly different creature. It ties to all the good observations above. In moderation shame is or can be good – it comes from inside and can help change behavior. Betty fears public embarrassment or being humiliated in front of others more than any other thing. This is the legacy of her Mother of course.
Great post and I agree 100% with whoever said Peggy on the scooter is the best scene – this is Peggy’s season for sure!
FRANK.
Hello again!
Long ago, when I was a kid teaching college classes to other kids, I introduced the topic of argumentative writing by asking my students two questions: what they knew best, and what made them angriest.
The two were almost never the same. Except in the case of one beautiful, I mean stunning, young woman: straight dark hair, olive skin, often quiet, but when she spoke up, very funny and clear.
"Racism," was her answer to both. I asked her why, and she did this note-perfect imitation of the valley-girl airhead (apologies if I offend! This was Southern California in the early 90's! I had no lawyer!).
My student's imitation centered on the question: "Like, what ARE you?!?" (Now I'm wondering how often people ask that question. And how much longer they'll ask it, as I see more and more people who look like my kids.)
Her background was Korean, Chinese, Venezuelan, and Irish. Naturally, now there is just one word for that combination.
Hot.
Hi. Irish-Arab here. Heard that "what ARE you, anyway" aaaaallllll my life. Best response ever was "wha- A muslim mick?" Damn near peed myself.
As I commented in "Puzzles," I still can't get over Betty's mom nailing her brother's nudie magazine to his door – possibly, as CPT_Doom pointed out, because his showing it to Betty made it worse. Talk about shame and its "audience" component! And that Betty seemed to be bragging about the incident to Dr. Edna – Brrrrr!
We all saw Betty press against the washer (dryer?) and lie on her new fainting couch caressing herself (though I don't recall her hand being where Sally's kinda-sorta was). So, again, the audience element was the key – if Betty had caught Sally "doing that" alone at home, I doubt it would've gone as badly.
Speaking of the fainting couch: did anyone else think it was funny to see it still there in the living room? (But off to the side and in the corner… hmm.)
The day after seeing the latest episode of "Madmen" I found a first edition of Ruth Benedict's "The Chrysanthemum and the Sword" in a used-book store near work in Philadelphia. I had seen it around for years on lists of key books about Japan. She was apparently commissioned by the government to write it after World War II–I wonder if she ever expected to be the inspiration for a television show. My wife and I plan to read it.
Just wondering whether all this masterbation this season will, er, come together as it were. In the recent California episode, the show was full of references to dick and you had the comedian's reference to self abuse and Layne slapping his groin with the t-bone. I thought a message of that episode was Don's need to love himself (Dick) but now think that may apply across the show generally in terms of exploring the difficulty many people have with loving themselves and what they want rather than convincing themselves to love what is expected of them.
#56 Lulu, I was having a hard time organizing my thoughts around the issues of communication/miscommunication/presentation/interpretation in this episode, but you have done a great job with your post on the theme of translation. Thanks.
There are many instances of misrepresentation (the Benihana "date," Don telling the NYT reporter that he "doesn't know the guy," the fake commercial, unwed Dr. Faye, the Japanese present that's really from the rival agency), miscommunication (the attempt to call California, anything between Don and Mrs. Blankenship, the inability of the translator to explain what goes on in the creative lounge), misinterpretation (EVERYTHING Sally says or does, CGC's reading of what SCDP is doing to get the Honda account).
Many of these "mis" moments occur with strangers or in a public setting. There are so many miscommunications, or translation errors, in this episode that the moments of clear communication and understanding really stand out. These tend to be private moments — Dr. Faye and Don, Henry and Betty, even Roger and Joan. With the last image of the episode being Sally entering Dr. Edna's office, one hopes that clear communication and understanding will come from their private conversation.
,
@#50- I see where you’re coming from, but I think the bigger issue is the outright disrespect that Roger showed the clients to their faces.
We’ve seen Don do this before to a degree- Rachel’s first meeting, Jantzen (which was referred to last night)- but Roger almost always plays the perfect host, smoothing things over. I don’t think we’ve ever see him lose it on a client. Underlings, yes- Pete in S1, Sal last season- but not clients.
Annie:
Long time, not write (but I have been reading – you are always one of my faves
My choice of the word “Gaijin” is very purposeful. For those unfamiliar with Japanese language, its translation is “alien” or “foreign” in polite circles; “savage” for those that want to use it as an epithet.
You do touch on a sensitive subject regarding the treatment of Asians. There are still ignorant people out their that make no distinction between the various Asian cultures and they think it quite funny to talk in pidgin english while making Bruce Lee grunts. When Shaq was first asked about Yao Ming’s chances in the NBA. He responded with the usual gibberish the ignorant think is an Asian dialect. I expect this behaviour from the typical NBA player – what shocked me was the laughter of the reporters that surrounded his locker. Can you imagine if Yao had responded in kind while speaking Ebonics? Talk about a river of shit.
Racial relations in Japan is fascinating and terrifying. The Rape of Nanking, the Korean “Comfort Girls” of WWII, the occupation of the Philippines, etc. Yet, look at the transformation of that society after the war and there is cause for hope for all of mankind. All I’m saying is that every race is capable of great virtue and great evil.
For the record, I’m 1/2 Pacific Islander, 1/4 French, 1/4 Hispanic. When I told my college roommate me what I was, he said that I must be the laziest SOB in the university. He was a white, scrawny bike racer and I was as big as a linebacker. We immediately became friends.
#59 yes, I know, that wasn’t my point. My point was that once the Japanese knew what was in the packages, they exchanged them so the translator got the crappy gift. In front of SCDP. It’s the “in front of SCDP” part that I question, although now that I think of it, I wonder if it kind of parallels them watching Chaogh’s commercial?
Very nice observation Miss Kim and well said!
#64 Less of Me, Good post. I agree with you, but you said it so much more cleverly than I could have.
Aside from the barrage of American/Japanese cultural differences, it's odd that no one mentioned Roger's shame.
That shame being having lost friends during the war and no one caring–or worse, them accusing you of dredging up the most gut wrenching memories of your life to defend your stake in the firm. That your worst life experiences are getting in the way of making money or of someone else's happiness.
Seeing the "greatest generation" at a time when no one thought of them that way is very interesting.
#67 Donny Brooke
I lived in Japan long enough to know that books can offer insight, but they can also exaggerate, make generalizations, miss things, and over-simplify. I also know that I am no expert on Japan–I just have some experience with Japan.
About the awkwardness of the gifts and "correcting the mistake" in front of SCDP.
At least twice, I've expereienced the following. I'd be meeting a Japanese person for the first time. I would start to bow (knowing their culture) and the Japanese person would reach to shake hands (knowing my culture). I'd see the hand reaching out to me and unconsciously react by extending my hand. The Japanese person would see me start to bow and instinctively react by bowing. So we would both bow and shake hands at the same time–bringing us too close together to bow properly. BONK–our heads would knock. All of this can happen in a couple of seconds, and it is really quite funny.
But my point is that both sides were reaching across the cultural barrier, both sides found it a little awkward, and the Honda people may not have switched the gifts if the SCDP representatives were Japanese. They may have done things differently in light of their own understanding (or lack of understanding) regarding American culture.
There are several other possibilities. First–the directors of the TV show wanted us to know that Pete didn't "get it" despite all of his research. Bert was better based on experience. Don, however, "got it" just by reading the book and saved everybody.
Pete probably "should" have been able to tell which members of the group were more important than others (based on their business cards, titles, behavior, and so on). If the gifts were not all equal, he "should" have been deft enough to distribute the gifts to the proper people–or to give them all collectively to the company as a whole. Finally–the gifts are important, but he probably made too big a deal about the gifts (trying to show how enlightened he was) and he put everyone on the spot publically. Even though he's trying harder than anyone else at SCDP, his mistakes attract a lot more attention than his earnest attempt to put his best foot forward.
The Honda representatives seemed to object to the idea of gifts. Were they trying to be American? Or were they being "formal" and pretending to object–even though the gift was truely expected? Or were they uninterested in feeling obligated to return a gift to SCDP? Had a supervisor made it part of "the rules"?
Anyway, once the junior members of the Japanese group knew what was in each package, my guess is that the junior members would be ashamed to keep a better gift than their superior received. Also, they may have perceived it as doing Pete the favor of saving him from an embarassing mistake he made. Or they may have simply cared more about "saving face" within their own group than they cared about possibly shaming Pete.
Finally–Pete was a junior member of the SCDP staff. Bert had reprimanded Pete, Pete looks young, and Pete was "playing host." The Japanese people may have assumed the important people would be older (Bert) and would not have been "playing host" the way Pete was. They may not have understood what Bert said, but it "wasn't that subtle" that Bert was more senior and Bert was correcting Pete. They may have gotten the impression that Pete had already lost face with Bert and that they really were not shaming or insulting anyone by correcting the mistake.
Even though the Japanese translator and Pete were working the hardest to bring everyone together, they are both perceived as "low on the totem pole." Rather than celebrate their efforts, the others notice their mistakes (Pete bobbling the gift issue, the translator being unable to perfectly translate what goes on in each room).
Having done some translation–this isn't so uncommon!
That's my best stab, Donny.
#76 Jimmy
I think that people find it a little harder to sympathize with Roger because a lot of what he says sounds racist.
I think you are correct–this is a very gut-wrenching issue for Roger. I think there is a lot more going on than just racism (not being able to save your friends who died horribly at the hand of Japanese soldiers) but it's clouded by his negative feelings towards an entire people.
I wrote on another thread that I think Roger might have assumed that Don would "get it" because Don has seen war and they are closer in age.
Perhaps Roger thought Don would "get it" the way that Allison assumed Peggy would "get it."
#77 Thank you, that was a great answer. Even one's own culture can be complicated, but trying to please someone from another very different place is crazy-making!
OK, one more "expert" question: Is it ok to openly stare at a woman's, um, parts like the Japanese were doing? Or was it only because Joan is American?
#79 Japanese people in that situation don't look directly in your eyes. Staring and Joan and making the comment seemed a little off to me — but, boy was it funny!
Japanese businessmen treat their woman worse and tend to "respect" the western women. In business, conduct the meeting in English for more respect. If you speak fluent Japanese, in some ways it diminishes you; English is better.
Benihana may have been the "in" place in 1965, but you would take them to the best French or Italian restaurant to make an impression. Gallagher's would also be good (steak). I've never been to Benihana's myself and I never went during my hundreds of dinners with Japanese people in New York. There were very, very few Japanese restaurants in New York in 1965.
Here's a doozy. If you were a survivor of Hiroshima or Nagasaki, you would NEVER mention it, because the survivors were outcasts. Too distasteful to discuss. Unclean.
@Kisses in the Hallway and Kturk… looks down, scratches imaginary dirt with one foot, blushes, 'aw shucks.' Thanks for the praise, nothing super insightful to say on Dr. Miller for now, but one interesting fact, she played CHRISTOFA's (Christopher's) wife on The Soprano's once his big mouth got his long time girlfriend Adriana killed. Hard to recognize with a different hair color, no big Jersey hair (it's ok, I'm from Jersey, I can kid), her naturally brown hair and no North Jersey accent. I personally think she looks much prettier as a brunette.
Re #81- There's an excellent HBO documentary "White Light, Black Rain" about the survivors and their treatment by the Japanese government.
Dark Peggy,
THAT is Chrissie's WIFE?!?
HO-ly s**t. I am soooo firing up the last season of The Sopranos, tonight.
Like I ever need a reason.
Thanks, lady!
#75 Josie, now I don't know if that's true. But let me state for the record, you have exquisite taste in adverbs. That's very kind.
And thanks for reminding me, I had forgotten to compliment the postess for kicking off such a diverse and interesting Tuesday thread. I'm ashamed to admit I got very little work done today because of it. Well done Deborah, domo arigato.
The Roger business, while upsetting, is something I heard a lot of when growing up. Most people were very upset when others began to buy Japanese cars, for example. I'm not saying it's right, but I kept my mouth shut when around men who served in the Pacific theatre…especially two who survived a death march. It's like I wouldn't start defending Germans to grandparents who survived Dachau. It's a very awkward situation. I don't think people under the age of 45 or so can really understand it. Unless they're exceptionally sensitive–which many people on this site seem to be. Thank goodness.
# 70 – "I still can’t get over Betty’s mom nailing her brother’s nudie magazine to his door"
I haven't seen this mentioned on any of the other threads about Ep. 5 — The magazine in question was pretty tame by today's standards and even back when her brother showed it to her, it was basically harmless.
Nudist magazines were not sexual or sexy at all – and they certainly weren't "pornographic".
I remember a kid up the street showed me one when I was ten or eleven and it was just people playing volleyball or swimming or sitting around playing cards. The only thing that made any of the scenes at all out of the ordinary, was that everybody was naked.
That Betty's mother nailed it on the door – to shame the brother – was also a display of her being really hung-up over the naked human form.
Also, when Betty threatened to cut off Sally's fingers, I'd bet that she was echoing something she might have been told as a child, by her own mother – continuing a tradition of ignorance and of being hung-up on the human body.
Another thing — I don't think the show has ever referred to Betty's parenting skills having come from Dr. Benjamin Spock's book, "Baby and Child Care," which was first published in 1946.
A main tenet of Spock's approach was that children should be viewed as individuals. They should be treated accordingly and with some measure of respect as actual persons.
Nothing about Betty's interactions with Sally in Ep. 5 would suggest that she's even heard of Spock's book – much less read it or followed its advice.
#79 Donny Brook
Their stares at Joan didn't surprise me. I was routinely asked many questions by complete strangers that nobody would even consider asking me in the States — like what my bust-waist-hip measurements are. Shockingly–I don't actually have these numbers memorized.
I suspect things would have been more sexist in 1965.
Joan is American and very different. Translation: she has the opposite of a "traditional" Japanese figure. It would be noticed–even the SC men saluted Joan.
Like anywhere–some men pay more attention and are more overt. They probably have behaved this way plenty of times, and are not being significantly different than they would normally be. However, being so far from their home culture, they may have fewer inhibitions or restraints.
#78: Racism tends to not have any background to the hatred that is brought forth. A man who survived what is inarguably the most brutal side of America's part during WWII isn't going to feel friendly towards those people and really can not be expected to.
Also, besides "Jap" did he use any slurs? I can't recall.
But like I said, the "So What/Big Deal" manner everyone around him treated him with is very interesting. He's seen as such a "Good-Time-Charlie" type by the audience and those he works with that to see him masking very dark feelings with his non-chalant attitude is very disturbing and adds a dark undercurrent to his general conviviality.
No. At an early dinner party, Francine mentioned a book about raising boys; Betty answered that she knew what little boys wanted. Spock’s book had been out for years by then, but we got the idea that Betty was raising her kids just like her mother did. No book was going to influence her. After all, she turned out just fine!
Dr Spock later got slammed for preaching “permissiveness.” Which he did not–he was very level-headed & simply opposed the chilliness of some earlier experts. But he came out against the Vietnam war & for some “radical” ideas–like legalizing homosexuality. So The Usual Suspects tried to demonize him.
http://www.drspock.com/about/drbenjaminspock/0,1781,,00.html
As a mad maniac I am guilty of trying to decipher statements made by the characters as possible clues toward future plot points. The few references to death so far have me wondering if one of the main players will meet their demise this season. Obviously, it has yet to happen on the show. And since this is not the Sopranos, the specter of death does not loom here. However, with the "Who am I?" theme of the season I think about who on the show has the least amount of' ' development' left as a person. My guess is Roger. His self-aware one liners are growing a beard, he proved to himself he could build a business instead of just inhereting it and he can die in the arms of a 2o year old who is now 22. Whew! Losing Roger would be a tremendous blow, but his next coronary seems inevitable-the imbibing the inhaling, etc. Mr. Weiner is so brilliant with delivering his plot twists that I'm now utterly convinced that nothing will happen to our Roger. What I just say??? The comments posted here are so astute as to be intimidating. Hope I don't bring the level of discourse down too many notches.
Dr. Spock and the idea of raising children through psychology had been around for a while, but it wasn't until the 1970's that it became mainstream. Movies and TV from the 1960's always treated the idea as humorous at best.
Dr Spock's Common Sense Guide to Baby & Child Care was a success from the beginning. Born in 1948, I read my mother's dog-eared copy (since I read everything in the house.) We were hardly effete intellectuals.
Ah, Spiro Agnew!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/cam…
So far, I haven't read anything about Joan's encounter with the Japanese executives.
The rules seem to be different for Joan — "how does she not fall forward"? or something to that effect. They didn't seem concerned about embarrassing HER. I guess sexism is the same in all cultures.
Not sure if Joan knows Japanese, but she knew what they were saying. "They're not too subtle, are they?" I loved that, once again, Joan's not afraid to call it as she sees it!
Norman Vincent Peale, I think, was less concerned with "conventional morality" than he was with supporting Republicans and keeping them in power.
He actively stirred up anti-Catholic sentiment during the 1960 presidential contest between Nixon and JFK.
http://www.c-spanarchives.org/program/id/220701
It's ironic that Peale supported Nixon's 1968 "Law & Order" campaign, since Nixon's administration was about the most lawless in the 20th Century!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_scandals_o…
Deb, late to the thread but I wanted to say I was curious about your assertion, "Traditional Japanese culture provides connective tissue between shame and forgiveness on the one hand, and rules and gamesmanship on the other. It’s a rules-driven culture in which shame plays an important role." I wish you had cited your source(s) there, because as I think about it I would have stated it slightly differently. I would've said it is an honor-based society, but of course the dark side of honor is shame, so maybe we get to the same place via different routes.
And I guess the terms "shame-based" and "guilt-based" have anthropological standing I was not aware of. From Wikipedia:
"Paul Hiebert characterizes the shame society as follows:
Shame is a reaction to other people's criticism, an acute personal chagrin at our failure to live up to our obligations and the expectations others have of us. In true shame oriented cultures, every person has a place and a duty in the society. One maintains self-respect, not by choosing what is good rather than what is evil, but by choosing what is expected of one."
Doesn't that ring of Dr Faye's contention, " In a nutshell, it all comes down to what I want versus what’s expected of me." ?
Then on the flip side, Wikipedia also has: "Paul Hiebert characterizes the guilt society as follows:
Guilt is a feeling that arises when we violate the absolute standards of morality within us, when we violate our conscience. A person may suffer from guilt although no one else knows of his or her misdeed; this feeling of guilt is relieved by confessing the misdeed and making restitution. True guilt cultures rely on an internalized conviction of sin as the enforcer of good behavior, not, as shame cultures do, on external sanctions. Guilt cultures emphasize punishment and forgiveness as ways of restoring the moral order; shame cultures stress self-denial and humility as ways of restoring the social order. (Hiebert 1985, 213)"
There is a lot of meat left on this bone. Many viewers and basketcases react strongly to Don's decisions in life, and I am not sure they understand that he is a man who's lacking a compass, at least he is not affected by wither of these codes of behavior. His ability to stand outside of society and see the gears move, and make decisions that successfully appeal to his client's customers is the foundation of his success. I think part of why he understands consumers is his ability to stand apart from their lives. And, this is why he only feels true attraction for others who also stand separate from the herd, like Rachel, Midge, and Suzanne.
@Lady K (#77): "Even though [Pete]’s trying harder than anyone else at SCDP, his mistakes attract a lot more attention than his earnest attempt to put his best foot forward."
That's pretty much always Pete's downfall. He tries too hard, and it bites him in the ass. He's in his late 20s, but mentally he's still that kid in junior high who does outlandish things in the hope that the cool kids will like him.