An explanation and then a post.
Explanation: I normally watch an episode, jot down notes, and either write a post (and stay up way too late) which I polish Monday morning, or I write the whole post Monday morning (having therefore gotten up way too early). I always avoid reading anything about the episode before writing, because I am not a creative thinker if others’ thoughts are too much with me. I don’t even read the Open Thread(s) until after I’ve written. This week, personal obligations prevented me from watching until Monday evening. So not only did I avoid the Open Threads, but the whole darn blog.
So, get on with it. Where’s the post?
The Chrysanthemum and the Sword is about shame, and I’m pretty sure that the entire Internet has already written that. The juxtaposition of Sally’s shame with Roger’s is brilliant. Ripples of shame surround each primary incident; Phoebe is indirectly shamed by Sally’s error, and is wrongly blamed by Don. Pete is indirectly shamed by Roger’s error, and is wrongly blamed by Honda. Sally’s mother is ashamed on Sally’s behalf; Roger’s father-figure (Bert) is ashamed on Roger’s behalf (Bert and Betty each explicitly state this).
Shame is a dark theme, so it helps that this is the funniest (and perhaps all-around best) episode of the season. Mrs. Blankenship is comedy gold. Peggy riding the motorcycle in circles is not only uproarious, but also an indelible image. (And the red bike circling on a white soundstage is almost a Japanese flag—take that for what you will.)
But it’s not just shame (does any Mad Men episode have only one theme?). The Chrysanthemum and the Sword is also about forgiveness, and it’s about rules—those obeyed, and those broken. As such, it is also about turning expectations on their heads (expectations are a kind of rule, after all). Henry advises Betty to forgive Sally (“I’m supposed to reward her?”) and everyone advises Roger to forgive the Japanese. In the end, Honda forgives SCDP.
Traditional Japanese culture provides connective tissue between shame and forgiveness on the one hand, and rules and gamesmanship on the other. It’s a rules-driven culture in which shame plays an important role. The Honda executives create a game for the Americans to play. With World War II behind them and the Honda car ahead of them, they stand in the middle heralding the changes in the world of 1965. They say that the rules as we know them can and will be broken (Japan and America are no longer enemies) but must not be broken (CG&C doesn’t get the account).
Broken rules and game-playing: Don first suggests breaking Honda’s rules, then plays a game of faking out CG&C, then uses Honda’s own rule-breaking to win the whole shebang. He figured out how to win at breaking the rules by studying them closely (notice he was reading when Betty called—reminiscent of him reading Exodus to study up on Rachel in S1). Sally, on the other hand, has no idea what the rules are, and therefore pays a high price for breaking them. There’s also Faye Miller’s admission that her marriage is a game (and now we all have to go back and edit our references to her “engagement” ring, don’t we?).
Upended expectations: Henry turns out to be really wise and decent, and Betty softens when we don’t expect her to. Don is a dick at exactly the moment where we think he might not be (with Phoebe), and breaks his own rules when we don’t imagine he will. Remember how Don berated Peggy for her Sugarberry stunt? Now he’s created a stunt that makes that one look pure and innocent. Don complains about people’s propensity for confession to Dr. Miller (of all people) and then offers one of the most stunningly honest bits of confessional truth we’ve ever seen from him.
One of the things we’re seeing this season is that episodes are both profoundly intimate and yet broadly cultural. How lovely, then, that something as intimate as masturbation is juxtaposed with a cultural touchstone like The Man From U.N.C.L.E. The intimate/culture intersection is spelled out in TCatS: We break the rules and are ashamed, but we break the rules and we win. We just have to know which is which, but it’s 1965, and nobody really knows.
97 Responses to “The Shame and the Sword”
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@ #20 I was thinking the same thing. If Betty had known Sally was aroused by a young man on t.v. she'd probably feel better about the whole thing.
I try really hard to stay at least somewhat sympathetic to Betty, but slapping Sally for cutting her hair was pretty OTT, even for Betty.
@49 That's not a bad idea. Isn't it sad that he didn't even think of taking his children. How much fun they would have had. I suppose children at a restaurant like that, even older children like Sally & Bobby, weren't the norm.
I SUSPECT from little cues in the episode – which I freely admit could be interpreted in other ways – that Sally had wanted to cut her hair before, and Betty had told her no.
#42 – thelma – I know what the laws of confidentiality are now, but I don't know if they were the same in 1965 (and in New York). Confidentiality in the case of doctor or therapist/patient, clergy/congregation and lawyer/client are sacrosanct and only cease in case of death. Officially. However, if a professional knows that a patient or client is going to harm either themselves or another and does nothing, that professional incurs a liability which could be exploited through the courts. In other words, if a therapist knows that a patient is suicidal or homicidal and does nothing, that can have huge ramifications. Whether it does or not depends. If a child in therapy reveals that he or she is being abused and the therapist does nothing, that can also have huge ramifications.
Betty disclosing Don's secret does not appear to fall under the category of physical harm, and thus it would be covered by laws of confidentiality. My personal feeling is that Betty would be shamed by the revelation that she was married to and had three children by a man she didn't know, from a background that she finds degrading, and thus she is less likely to disclose it.
For some reason, I keep remembering when Betty bought that beautiful yellow two-piece suit (Jantzen, anyone?) and Don shamed her into taking it off so that no one would see her in it.
#52 Jules: It might not have been the norm exactly, but it did happen. My folks took me to BeniHanna (sp?) in the late 60's and I was hardly the only kid there, and believe you me we were ALL on our best behavior or we wouldn't get to go again. At that time it was the only Japanese eatery around and it seemed so exotic and swank, I felt special just being there. Sadly, I'm sure it never crossed Don's mind to take them there.
Great posts and lots to think about.
Translation played a large part in this episode as well. Not only do we have a Japanese to English translator, we have Burt Cooper providing translation about how the Japanese think and operate.
Henry is trying to guide Betty as she deals with her daughter’s behavior. Thanks to Henry’s “translation” of Sally’s behavior, Sally seems to be on her way to receiving the help that she sorely needs.
Phoebe tried to translate Sally’s feelings to Don, but Don would have none of it.
On the other hand, Don’s conversation with Faye gave a rare glimpse of Don actually opening up. He seems willing to learn from Faye.
Finally, Dr. Edna holds the promise of being a very capable translator, guiding Sally, and maybe even Betty, through the choppy emotional waters of growing up and dealing with divorce.
Loved this episode.
# 49 bestbets — Rock on!! Indeed, didn't anyone else get that Benihana's was chock-a-butcher block with ad dudes and their stylishly turned-out arm candy, just in case the visiting Honda execs showed up for dinner? "How much you wanna bet all these other guys are J. Walter Thompson?" (sic) from Ted to Don…
# 53 Melissa — I agree. Betty, as has been pointed out before, looks upon her children's obvious physical beauty as an extension of her own. I believe it was the author Colette's mother who slapped her daughter as a small child for falling down and hurting herself, yelling, "How dare you ruin something I have made!"
Oh, Mrs. Blenkenship… how I love you… and how I love the fact she did announce that she finds Don sleeping on his office couch, just as I predicted! I'm telling you, Don's getting his mojo back is in part in the hopes of Joan forgiving him enough to let him have another crack at the steno pool…
First rate ep, can't wait for more!
#39 Donnybrook, the gift giving rule is that you exchange them at the end of a meeting and then you open them in private. You don't ever say, "it's a cantaloupe!" or "it's lacquerware!"
#55 Kturk, the chef at the first Benihana's in NYC, Rocky Aoki, was one of the first celebrity chefs in NYC. He'd be on a par with any of the Iron Chefs today. The restaurant was on West 56th Street, and opened in 1964, so Don would be taking Bethany to a very hip place. I also expect that someday soon they'll be dining at Trader Vic's in the Plaza Hotel, which opened in 1965.
In last week's episode Ken Cosgrove made a reference to "retards", and in this week's episode Bobby said Sally looked like a "Mongoloid". This made me wonder if this is foreshadowing that Pete and Trudy's child might be born with some type of disability…????
Deborah,
what's great about this place is how it's a springboard for so many wonderful wonderful posts. your own ideas are so eloquently stated (and so beautifully succinct) that they (like Ilya) can't help but fire up the imagination. thanx for depriving yourself of other corrupting ideas and giving us the benefit of your insight.
Pele, thanx as well for your very informative posts.
i don't think Japaneese culture has been revealed this much (on tv) since Shogun. i studied Okinawan karate many years ago and let me tell ya, a lot of people besides Roger hated the pre-WWII Japanese.
#38, Your Majesty, great post but you stopped just short of connecting the final two dots … CG&C also got caught masturbating (when you consider a spec ad nothing but a masturbatory act) your whole post lead me to that conclusion.
speaking of which, as a pre-pubescent watching tv in the 60's i remember the very first time i "felt funny down there". it was watching Edyie Gorme on Ed Sullivan. she was singing while wearing a very low cut gown. it must have been very hot in the studio because there were beads of persperation gathering around the small of her neck; one of them made a break down her chest and curved ever so slowly around her breast before disappearing deep into her cleavage. i was so fascinated by that bead of sweat that i didn't notice how aroused i had become. Ed Sullivan was a family show and we watched tv exactly like Sally does, ie, on the floor in front of mom & dad, so i had to get up very awkawardly and stumble out to the bathroom under the pretense of having "to go."
it wasn't until a couple of years later that i knew what to do about that funny feeling, but that's what playing doctor was for, wasn't it?
Dark Peggy,
when Faye sheepishly admitted that ring was a phony, i thought of you yelling at the tv: "AHA!! I knew it!!!"
Pele, great analysis. Here is my two bits:
"A man is whatever room he is standing in." The moment Don refused to make his presentation and returned the Honda money, he is a Samurai, not a Gaijin. You nailed it – he UNDERSTANDS. Not only does he do what is expected (resign after Roger's insults), he shames them for not honoring their own code (as you and many others have observed).
Complete aside – I was half expecting Mr. Saito, the Honda executive, to address Don as "Bond-san". You Only Live Twice was published in 64 and the Japanese industrialist/Spectre agent was named Osato, almost an anagram.
B. Cooper et al,
I think it is fair to label Roger a bigot based on his comments alone. I did, however, see a lot of real pain behind them, and this disorders my modern definition of what a bigot is. So I'm really uncomfortable using it in this context.
However, I should also add that I thought race really played a role in this episode. It wasn't just present in Roger's off-color (pun intended) comments: it was in other lines as well.
"You look like a Mongoloid!"
"Well, if it isn't the inscrutable Don Draper." (I am married to a half-Japanese man, have many Asian friends and relatives, and "inscrutable" is one of the adjectives the better-spoken of the racists tend to use.)
These, Don's treatment of the Honda team in his presentation, and the line about the chopsticks (they're hard to use?), made me wonder how viewers might have reacted if a Black, Latino, or female client had suffered the same treatment throughout an episode.
Really thought-provoking stuff.
#40 Kisses in the Hallway — my lunch break is so ruined.
I'm a bit perplexed. I had to re-read what I typed first to be sure and now I have to disagree with your disagreement about what I wrote.
I didn't actually say enough about capitalism in this thread to get anything "completely wrong" about it and I didn't read anything that unfairly bashes capitalism.
I will readily admit I do slap capitalism around from time to time, whenever it asks for it. It doesn't pay me for this service, but nearly every day if I listen closely to the static, I can usually hear — "harder . . . again". Of course, this may just reflect my personal experience with it or I may be super-sensitive to these things; but I understand, as the internet likes to say, "your mileage may vary" and I can accept that.
However I must make note that these truths about capitalism do clearly explain themselves.
"The truth about capitalism is that in the long run bigots lose."
[this is absolutely correct --1865 slavery ends; 1964 desegregated lunch counters, "so sorry about the wait for your turkey club."]
The truth about capitalism is that it brings distant and unconnected people together.
[this is correct again --my ISP service rep picks up the phone in Bangalore]
Sorry to be that overly sarcastic, but I obviously don't agree with your points. I truly mean no personal offense. I just wanted to defend my comments here. Maybe we can meet half-way, on this perhaps, — for the record, I believe capitalism has been a powerful mechanism sometimes utilized by men and, fairly just recently by women, to occasionally make some positive changes for some people in their current world.
Strangely, I know it's hard to believe, I was having this exact same discussion with my sister after watching "TV's Funniest Bloopers." Hardly seems possible. Peace.
So many good thoughts here – hard to know where to begin. I have noticed what I think may be a trend: On MM when the ideas are really big it can come at the expense of the characters.
One of the things I love about MM is the depth of the characters but mostly I love the themes and ideas – the symbols and motifs that hold the show together and allow us to think and discuss for weeks and months. Let’s face it, plot takes a big ol’ back seat to character and the large symbolic and thematic connectors running through the fabric of the drama. To my thinking it is the primary thing separating MM from the rest of TV.
That said, (and I expect to get slapped like Sally for saying this) I thought the characters were written just a bit clumsy this week. The themes are huge and discussed wonderfully above but early on Roger came off too over the top for me but redeemed himself with the great scene with Joan. Betty switched gears too quickly both with Henry and Dr. Edna – this did not resemble the very crafty and more complex Betty of earlier seasons. Above all, while I do like the comedy, I’m tired of Mrs. Blankenship. SCDP’s life is at stake here and they have hobbled their best horse with her – it’s just not washing anymore. This is nitpicking I know. As Deb has pointed out, this show is ten times better running on three cylinders than anything else running on all eight!
On the shame different topic, I think Betty’s hang up is just a bit off from shame – I think its public embarrassment and humiliation which is a slightly different creature. It ties to all the good observations above. In moderation shame is or can be good – it comes from inside and can help change behavior. Betty fears public embarrassment or being humiliated in front of others more than any other thing. This is the legacy of her Mother of course.
Great post and I agree 100% with whoever said Peggy on the scooter is the best scene – this is Peggy’s season for sure!
FRANK.
Hello again!
Long ago, when I was a kid teaching college classes to other kids, I introduced the topic of argumentative writing by asking my students two questions: what they knew best, and what made them angriest.
The two were almost never the same. Except in the case of one beautiful, I mean stunning, young woman: straight dark hair, olive skin, often quiet, but when she spoke up, very funny and clear.
"Racism," was her answer to both. I asked her why, and she did this note-perfect imitation of the valley-girl airhead (apologies if I offend! This was Southern California in the early 90's! I had no lawyer!).
My student's imitation centered on the question: "Like, what ARE you?!?" (Now I'm wondering how often people ask that question. And how much longer they'll ask it, as I see more and more people who look like my kids.)
Her background was Korean, Chinese, Venezuelan, and Irish. Naturally, now there is just one word for that combination.
Hot.
Hi. Irish-Arab here. Heard that "what ARE you, anyway" aaaaallllll my life. Best response ever was "wha- A muslim mick?" Damn near peed myself.
As I commented in "Puzzles," I still can't get over Betty's mom nailing her brother's nudie magazine to his door – possibly, as CPT_Doom pointed out, because his showing it to Betty made it worse. Talk about shame and its "audience" component! And that Betty seemed to be bragging about the incident to Dr. Edna – Brrrrr!
We all saw Betty press against the washer (dryer?) and lie on her new fainting couch caressing herself (though I don't recall her hand being where Sally's kinda-sorta was). So, again, the audience element was the key – if Betty had caught Sally "doing that" alone at home, I doubt it would've gone as badly.
Speaking of the fainting couch: did anyone else think it was funny to see it still there in the living room? (But off to the side and in the corner… hmm.)
The day after seeing the latest episode of "Madmen" I found a first edition of Ruth Benedict's "The Chrysanthemum and the Sword" in a used-book store near work in Philadelphia. I had seen it around for years on lists of key books about Japan. She was apparently commissioned by the government to write it after World War II–I wonder if she ever expected to be the inspiration for a television show. My wife and I plan to read it.
Just wondering whether all this masterbation this season will, er, come together as it were. In the recent California episode, the show was full of references to dick and you had the comedian's reference to self abuse and Layne slapping his groin with the t-bone. I thought a message of that episode was Don's need to love himself (Dick) but now think that may apply across the show generally in terms of exploring the difficulty many people have with loving themselves and what they want rather than convincing themselves to love what is expected of them.
#56 Lulu, I was having a hard time organizing my thoughts around the issues of communication/miscommunication/presentation/interpretation in this episode, but you have done a great job with your post on the theme of translation. Thanks.
There are many instances of misrepresentation (the Benihana "date," Don telling the NYT reporter that he "doesn't know the guy," the fake commercial, unwed Dr. Faye, the Japanese present that's really from the rival agency), miscommunication (the attempt to call California, anything between Don and Mrs. Blankenship, the inability of the translator to explain what goes on in the creative lounge), misinterpretation (EVERYTHING Sally says or does, CGC's reading of what SCDP is doing to get the Honda account).
Many of these "mis" moments occur with strangers or in a public setting. There are so many miscommunications, or translation errors, in this episode that the moments of clear communication and understanding really stand out. These tend to be private moments — Dr. Faye and Don, Henry and Betty, even Roger and Joan. With the last image of the episode being Sally entering Dr. Edna's office, one hopes that clear communication and understanding will come from their private conversation.
,
@#50- I see where you’re coming from, but I think the bigger issue is the outright disrespect that Roger showed the clients to their faces.
We’ve seen Don do this before to a degree- Rachel’s first meeting, Jantzen (which was referred to last night)- but Roger almost always plays the perfect host, smoothing things over. I don’t think we’ve ever see him lose it on a client. Underlings, yes- Pete in S1, Sal last season- but not clients.
Annie:
Long time, not write (but I have been reading – you are always one of my faves
My choice of the word “Gaijin” is very purposeful. For those unfamiliar with Japanese language, its translation is “alien” or “foreign” in polite circles; “savage” for those that want to use it as an epithet.
You do touch on a sensitive subject regarding the treatment of Asians. There are still ignorant people out their that make no distinction between the various Asian cultures and they think it quite funny to talk in pidgin english while making Bruce Lee grunts. When Shaq was first asked about Yao Ming’s chances in the NBA. He responded with the usual gibberish the ignorant think is an Asian dialect. I expect this behaviour from the typical NBA player – what shocked me was the laughter of the reporters that surrounded his locker. Can you imagine if Yao had responded in kind while speaking Ebonics? Talk about a river of shit.
Racial relations in Japan is fascinating and terrifying. The Rape of Nanking, the Korean “Comfort Girls” of WWII, the occupation of the Philippines, etc. Yet, look at the transformation of that society after the war and there is cause for hope for all of mankind. All I’m saying is that every race is capable of great virtue and great evil.
For the record, I’m 1/2 Pacific Islander, 1/4 French, 1/4 Hispanic. When I told my college roommate me what I was, he said that I must be the laziest SOB in the university. He was a white, scrawny bike racer and I was as big as a linebacker. We immediately became friends.
#59 yes, I know, that wasn’t my point. My point was that once the Japanese knew what was in the packages, they exchanged them so the translator got the crappy gift. In front of SCDP. It’s the “in front of SCDP” part that I question, although now that I think of it, I wonder if it kind of parallels them watching Chaogh’s commercial?
Very nice observation Miss Kim and well said!
#64 Less of Me, Good post. I agree with you, but you said it so much more cleverly than I could have.
Aside from the barrage of American/Japanese cultural differences, it's odd that no one mentioned Roger's shame.
That shame being having lost friends during the war and no one caring–or worse, them accusing you of dredging up the most gut wrenching memories of your life to defend your stake in the firm. That your worst life experiences are getting in the way of making money or of someone else's happiness.
Seeing the "greatest generation" at a time when no one thought of them that way is very interesting.
#67 Donny Brooke
I lived in Japan long enough to know that books can offer insight, but they can also exaggerate, make generalizations, miss things, and over-simplify. I also know that I am no expert on Japan–I just have some experience with Japan.
About the awkwardness of the gifts and "correcting the mistake" in front of SCDP.
At least twice, I've expereienced the following. I'd be meeting a Japanese person for the first time. I would start to bow (knowing their culture) and the Japanese person would reach to shake hands (knowing my culture). I'd see the hand reaching out to me and unconsciously react by extending my hand. The Japanese person would see me start to bow and instinctively react by bowing. So we would both bow and shake hands at the same time–bringing us too close together to bow properly. BONK–our heads would knock. All of this can happen in a couple of seconds, and it is really quite funny.
But my point is that both sides were reaching across the cultural barrier, both sides found it a little awkward, and the Honda people may not have switched the gifts if the SCDP representatives were Japanese. They may have done things differently in light of their own understanding (or lack of understanding) regarding American culture.
There are several other possibilities. First–the directors of the TV show wanted us to know that Pete didn't "get it" despite all of his research. Bert was better based on experience. Don, however, "got it" just by reading the book and saved everybody.
Pete probably "should" have been able to tell which members of the group were more important than others (based on their business cards, titles, behavior, and so on). If the gifts were not all equal, he "should" have been deft enough to distribute the gifts to the proper people–or to give them all collectively to the company as a whole. Finally–the gifts are important, but he probably made too big a deal about the gifts (trying to show how enlightened he was) and he put everyone on the spot publically. Even though he's trying harder than anyone else at SCDP, his mistakes attract a lot more attention than his earnest attempt to put his best foot forward.
The Honda representatives seemed to object to the idea of gifts. Were they trying to be American? Or were they being "formal" and pretending to object–even though the gift was truely expected? Or were they uninterested in feeling obligated to return a gift to SCDP? Had a supervisor made it part of "the rules"?
Anyway, once the junior members of the Japanese group knew what was in each package, my guess is that the junior members would be ashamed to keep a better gift than their superior received. Also, they may have perceived it as doing Pete the favor of saving him from an embarassing mistake he made. Or they may have simply cared more about "saving face" within their own group than they cared about possibly shaming Pete.
Finally–Pete was a junior member of the SCDP staff. Bert had reprimanded Pete, Pete looks young, and Pete was "playing host." The Japanese people may have assumed the important people would be older (Bert) and would not have been "playing host" the way Pete was. They may not have understood what Bert said, but it "wasn't that subtle" that Bert was more senior and Bert was correcting Pete. They may have gotten the impression that Pete had already lost face with Bert and that they really were not shaming or insulting anyone by correcting the mistake.
Even though the Japanese translator and Pete were working the hardest to bring everyone together, they are both perceived as "low on the totem pole." Rather than celebrate their efforts, the others notice their mistakes (Pete bobbling the gift issue, the translator being unable to perfectly translate what goes on in each room).
Having done some translation–this isn't so uncommon!
That's my best stab, Donny.
#76 Jimmy
I think that people find it a little harder to sympathize with Roger because a lot of what he says sounds racist.
I think you are correct–this is a very gut-wrenching issue for Roger. I think there is a lot more going on than just racism (not being able to save your friends who died horribly at the hand of Japanese soldiers) but it's clouded by his negative feelings towards an entire people.
I wrote on another thread that I think Roger might have assumed that Don would "get it" because Don has seen war and they are closer in age.
Perhaps Roger thought Don would "get it" the way that Allison assumed Peggy would "get it."
#77 Thank you, that was a great answer. Even one's own culture can be complicated, but trying to please someone from another very different place is crazy-making!
OK, one more "expert" question: Is it ok to openly stare at a woman's, um, parts like the Japanese were doing? Or was it only because Joan is American?
#79 Japanese people in that situation don't look directly in your eyes. Staring and Joan and making the comment seemed a little off to me — but, boy was it funny!
Japanese businessmen treat their woman worse and tend to "respect" the western women. In business, conduct the meeting in English for more respect. If you speak fluent Japanese, in some ways it diminishes you; English is better.
Benihana may have been the "in" place in 1965, but you would take them to the best French or Italian restaurant to make an impression. Gallagher's would also be good (steak). I've never been to Benihana's myself and I never went during my hundreds of dinners with Japanese people in New York. There were very, very few Japanese restaurants in New York in 1965.
Here's a doozy. If you were a survivor of Hiroshima or Nagasaki, you would NEVER mention it, because the survivors were outcasts. Too distasteful to discuss. Unclean.
@Kisses in the Hallway and Kturk… looks down, scratches imaginary dirt with one foot, blushes, 'aw shucks.' Thanks for the praise, nothing super insightful to say on Dr. Miller for now, but one interesting fact, she played CHRISTOFA's (Christopher's) wife on The Soprano's once his big mouth got his long time girlfriend Adriana killed. Hard to recognize with a different hair color, no big Jersey hair (it's ok, I'm from Jersey, I can kid), her naturally brown hair and no North Jersey accent. I personally think she looks much prettier as a brunette.
Re #81- There's an excellent HBO documentary "White Light, Black Rain" about the survivors and their treatment by the Japanese government.
Dark Peggy,
THAT is Chrissie's WIFE?!?
HO-ly s**t. I am soooo firing up the last season of The Sopranos, tonight.
Like I ever need a reason.
Thanks, lady!
#75 Josie, now I don't know if that's true. But let me state for the record, you have exquisite taste in adverbs. That's very kind.
And thanks for reminding me, I had forgotten to compliment the postess for kicking off such a diverse and interesting Tuesday thread. I'm ashamed to admit I got very little work done today because of it. Well done Deborah, domo arigato.
The Roger business, while upsetting, is something I heard a lot of when growing up. Most people were very upset when others began to buy Japanese cars, for example. I'm not saying it's right, but I kept my mouth shut when around men who served in the Pacific theatre…especially two who survived a death march. It's like I wouldn't start defending Germans to grandparents who survived Dachau. It's a very awkward situation. I don't think people under the age of 45 or so can really understand it. Unless they're exceptionally sensitive–which many people on this site seem to be. Thank goodness.
# 70 – "I still can’t get over Betty’s mom nailing her brother’s nudie magazine to his door"
I haven't seen this mentioned on any of the other threads about Ep. 5 — The magazine in question was pretty tame by today's standards and even back when her brother showed it to her, it was basically harmless.
Nudist magazines were not sexual or sexy at all – and they certainly weren't "pornographic".
I remember a kid up the street showed me one when I was ten or eleven and it was just people playing volleyball or swimming or sitting around playing cards. The only thing that made any of the scenes at all out of the ordinary, was that everybody was naked.
That Betty's mother nailed it on the door – to shame the brother – was also a display of her being really hung-up over the naked human form.
Also, when Betty threatened to cut off Sally's fingers, I'd bet that she was echoing something she might have been told as a child, by her own mother – continuing a tradition of ignorance and of being hung-up on the human body.
Another thing — I don't think the show has ever referred to Betty's parenting skills having come from Dr. Benjamin Spock's book, "Baby and Child Care," which was first published in 1946.
A main tenet of Spock's approach was that children should be viewed as individuals. They should be treated accordingly and with some measure of respect as actual persons.
Nothing about Betty's interactions with Sally in Ep. 5 would suggest that she's even heard of Spock's book – much less read it or followed its advice.
#79 Donny Brook
Their stares at Joan didn't surprise me. I was routinely asked many questions by complete strangers that nobody would even consider asking me in the States — like what my bust-waist-hip measurements are. Shockingly–I don't actually have these numbers memorized.
I suspect things would have been more sexist in 1965.
Joan is American and very different. Translation: she has the opposite of a "traditional" Japanese figure. It would be noticed–even the SC men saluted Joan.
Like anywhere–some men pay more attention and are more overt. They probably have behaved this way plenty of times, and are not being significantly different than they would normally be. However, being so far from their home culture, they may have fewer inhibitions or restraints.
#78: Racism tends to not have any background to the hatred that is brought forth. A man who survived what is inarguably the most brutal side of America's part during WWII isn't going to feel friendly towards those people and really can not be expected to.
Also, besides "Jap" did he use any slurs? I can't recall.
But like I said, the "So What/Big Deal" manner everyone around him treated him with is very interesting. He's seen as such a "Good-Time-Charlie" type by the audience and those he works with that to see him masking very dark feelings with his non-chalant attitude is very disturbing and adds a dark undercurrent to his general conviviality.
No. At an early dinner party, Francine mentioned a book about raising boys; Betty answered that she knew what little boys wanted. Spock’s book had been out for years by then, but we got the idea that Betty was raising her kids just like her mother did. No book was going to influence her. After all, she turned out just fine!
Dr Spock later got slammed for preaching “permissiveness.” Which he did not–he was very level-headed & simply opposed the chilliness of some earlier experts. But he came out against the Vietnam war & for some “radical” ideas–like legalizing homosexuality. So The Usual Suspects tried to demonize him.
http://www.drspock.com/about/drbenjaminspock/0,1781,,00.html
As a mad maniac I am guilty of trying to decipher statements made by the characters as possible clues toward future plot points. The few references to death so far have me wondering if one of the main players will meet their demise this season. Obviously, it has yet to happen on the show. And since this is not the Sopranos, the specter of death does not loom here. However, with the "Who am I?" theme of the season I think about who on the show has the least amount of' ' development' left as a person. My guess is Roger. His self-aware one liners are growing a beard, he proved to himself he could build a business instead of just inhereting it and he can die in the arms of a 2o year old who is now 22. Whew! Losing Roger would be a tremendous blow, but his next coronary seems inevitable-the imbibing the inhaling, etc. Mr. Weiner is so brilliant with delivering his plot twists that I'm now utterly convinced that nothing will happen to our Roger. What I just say??? The comments posted here are so astute as to be intimidating. Hope I don't bring the level of discourse down too many notches.
Dr. Spock and the idea of raising children through psychology had been around for a while, but it wasn't until the 1970's that it became mainstream. Movies and TV from the 1960's always treated the idea as humorous at best.
Dr Spock's Common Sense Guide to Baby & Child Care was a success from the beginning. Born in 1948, I read my mother's dog-eared copy (since I read everything in the house.) We were hardly effete intellectuals.
Ah, Spiro Agnew!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/cam…
So far, I haven't read anything about Joan's encounter with the Japanese executives.
The rules seem to be different for Joan — "how does she not fall forward"? or something to that effect. They didn't seem concerned about embarrassing HER. I guess sexism is the same in all cultures.
Not sure if Joan knows Japanese, but she knew what they were saying. "They're not too subtle, are they?" I loved that, once again, Joan's not afraid to call it as she sees it!
Norman Vincent Peale, I think, was less concerned with "conventional morality" than he was with supporting Republicans and keeping them in power.
He actively stirred up anti-Catholic sentiment during the 1960 presidential contest between Nixon and JFK.
http://www.c-spanarchives.org/program/id/220701
It's ironic that Peale supported Nixon's 1968 "Law & Order" campaign, since Nixon's administration was about the most lawless in the 20th Century!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_scandals_o…
Deb, late to the thread but I wanted to say I was curious about your assertion, "Traditional Japanese culture provides connective tissue between shame and forgiveness on the one hand, and rules and gamesmanship on the other. It’s a rules-driven culture in which shame plays an important role." I wish you had cited your source(s) there, because as I think about it I would have stated it slightly differently. I would've said it is an honor-based society, but of course the dark side of honor is shame, so maybe we get to the same place via different routes.
And I guess the terms "shame-based" and "guilt-based" have anthropological standing I was not aware of. From Wikipedia:
"Paul Hiebert characterizes the shame society as follows:
Shame is a reaction to other people's criticism, an acute personal chagrin at our failure to live up to our obligations and the expectations others have of us. In true shame oriented cultures, every person has a place and a duty in the society. One maintains self-respect, not by choosing what is good rather than what is evil, but by choosing what is expected of one."
Doesn't that ring of Dr Faye's contention, " In a nutshell, it all comes down to what I want versus what’s expected of me." ?
Then on the flip side, Wikipedia also has: "Paul Hiebert characterizes the guilt society as follows:
Guilt is a feeling that arises when we violate the absolute standards of morality within us, when we violate our conscience. A person may suffer from guilt although no one else knows of his or her misdeed; this feeling of guilt is relieved by confessing the misdeed and making restitution. True guilt cultures rely on an internalized conviction of sin as the enforcer of good behavior, not, as shame cultures do, on external sanctions. Guilt cultures emphasize punishment and forgiveness as ways of restoring the moral order; shame cultures stress self-denial and humility as ways of restoring the social order. (Hiebert 1985, 213)"
There is a lot of meat left on this bone. Many viewers and basketcases react strongly to Don's decisions in life, and I am not sure they understand that he is a man who's lacking a compass, at least he is not affected by wither of these codes of behavior. His ability to stand outside of society and see the gears move, and make decisions that successfully appeal to his client's customers is the foundation of his success. I think part of why he understands consumers is his ability to stand apart from their lives. And, this is why he only feels true attraction for others who also stand separate from the herd, like Rachel, Midge, and Suzanne.
@Lady K (#77): "Even though [Pete]’s trying harder than anyone else at SCDP, his mistakes attract a lot more attention than his earnest attempt to put his best foot forward."
That's pretty much always Pete's downfall. He tries too hard, and it bites him in the ass. He's in his late 20s, but mentally he's still that kid in junior high who does outlandish things in the hope that the cool kids will like him.