Nov 112009
Characters we will surely miss if they’re gone; and they may well be:
Sterling Cooper
Paul Kinsey
Ken Cosgrove
Salvatore Romano
Olive
Hildy
Alison
Lois Sadler
Dale
Ossining
(I don’t for a minute believe that Betty is gone; Don has three kids and will see them. I believe Betty’s new life will form a sub-plot. Still, I think we’ll see a lot less of Ossining.)
Francine & Carlton Hanson
Carla
105 Responses to “Who is gone?”
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I will miss all the SC gang (well, where the heck is Dale anyway?) — add Smitty to that list. I hope for the sake of the new agency that Calamity Lois is kept at bay and out of the suite. I won't miss the Hansons a bit. I have a lot of issues with Betty, but if I spent more time with that couple, I think they would bother me more. I wish nothing but good things for Carla, but I doubt she'll get much. It's been interesting having this set in Ossining. I lived there when I was first married. I worked in Briarcliff Manor and my husband was in Tarrytown in an office complex that had been part of the Rockefeller estate. I was a patient of the son of Betty's OB/gyn and my boss worked at the same hospital.
The biggest prospective loss for me is Sal. I really grew to care about him and my heart ached for his struggle and Kitty's sadness.
Let's hope Hildy and the rest of SC gang go on to better paying jobs!
I can only imagine the conversations what would be going on in Ossining right after the Draper split. Francine would have had a field day.
I doubt that Sal will be asked to join SCD & P, but I can imagine a scenario that would bring him back into the story for at least an episode or two. If he has, as he hoped, opened his own shop, doing commercial art, maybe producing commercials, SCD & P might want to send him some work. I can see Sal being torn between his pride in not wanting to deal with them and his needing the work for his stuggling new business to survive. Plus, his hesitation to accept their work would again raise questions with Kitty as to why he was fired in the first place. The climax could be his simultaneously aceepting the job and telling Kitty the truth, saving his business and destroying his marriage. Or it could be the reverse, choosing to save his marriage and remained closeted, while sacrificing his business.
Have I been thinking about this too much?
Mel, I agree that Sal could come back much the way that Duck was back this year (except without the icky sex).
Characters I won't actually miss all that much: Smitty, Kurt the homosexual (I do love him but he's kind of one-note), Suzanne.
The end of the Draper marriage will certainly enliven many a kaffeeklatch in Ossining. As the victim of Betty's scorn, Francine will surely have a lot to say. (Well, she usually has a lot to say.)
My grandmother sometimes use the phrase "Butter wouldn't melt in her mouth." I finally realized that was how a lady called another woman a cold bitch. Betty, with her Main Line condescension & Bryn Mawr superiority–fleeing the Drapermanse with a strange man, leaving the older kids behind with Carla. Tongues will wag! (Surely Francine will help them have a good Christmas. As will Don as soon as he discovers Birdie has flown the coop.)
Carla could contribute a bit about the mysterious Henry–but will hold her tongue.
Alas, Ossining will judge Betty more harshly than Don.
If Betty hastily marries Henry–he's already got a staff member who has met The Second Mrs Francis. (If she is only #2, that is.)
Remember that SCDP took Lucky Strike with them as their number one client. I can't see that now the agency has changed that Lee Garner Jr will accept Sal as part of the team, which is the reason why Sal was fired in the 1st place.
Personally, I'll miss Ken the most. He wasn't used much this season, so I think it's the end for him. I can't see them losing Paul or Sal. Paul was used quite a bit this season. As for Lois, good riddance! She cut off a Guy's foot for goodness sake!
We'll see at least SOME of Betty, and let's face it, the conflict between her, Don & the kids could be ripe for exploration. May or may not see Carla, depending on how much time we spend in Ossining, or wherever she ends up living.
I don't know why SCDP would hire Paul – he's proven to be a less-than-first-rate writer. The 'new gang" needs to be much better than the "old gang" if they're going to survive, and you don't hire the known-quantity B-listers for a new venture. (Sorry Michael! I loved you on the show!)
Alison is an awesome secretary, so I could see Don poaching her at some point.
Olive and Hildy seem replaceable. Peggy & Pete don;t seem particularly dependent on their talents.
Lois? Are you kidding me?? No one ever wanted Lois as a secretary. She was the punishment inflicted on the B-listers. Too bad – she was a great character.
Ken was only the happy-go-lucky foil to everyone else's angst. Will we need that now?
I always liked Dale, but we never saw much of him, so I'm not sure why they'd bring him back. Unless MW has some bigger ideas for him.
Kurt & Smitty I could see, from a SCDP perspective. Remember Don was pretty impressed with their background, even if he was a little dismissive later on. But then, he was dismissive of everyone.
Sal Sal Sal… He's such a great character, and such a wonderful actor, I think they bring him back in some capacity on the show. I vote for the freelance-has-his-own-shop idea, but I could see SCDP bringing him back as art director if they can figure a way around the Lee Jr problem. Roger might put his foot down on that though, and I kind of wouldn't blame him. If Lucky Strike could shut the lights off for SC, they can sink SCDP like a rock.
I hope we see new and interesting characters bringing new conflicts and storylines.
I don't think we'll see any of Don's old flames.
#12 "I don't think we'll see any of Don's old flames." You're probably right, 1964, was when I think "the 60's" really began, so it's out with the old and in with the new. But I have a soft spot in my heart for Rachael. I know it's highly unlikely, but now that Don's in the city, I can't help wondering if their paths might cross, would make for some great dramatic tension.
I think that will bring Sal back in some capacity. Probably not as a regular, but he is certain to turn up in some S4 story-line. I feel largely the same way about the rest of the Sterling Cooper gang. We might see Pete competing for an account against Ken, or Paul gossiping with Peggy over drinks. Some churn in the ranks opens the show up a little bit.
It should be interesting to see what SCD&P turns into. It would be great if they used Jack Tinker & Partners as a model. It would be great to see the gang roaming around two-story penthouse offices.
Regarding Ossining, it figures to become a much smaller part of the show. Betty, Sally, Bobby and baby Gene will still be a part of Don's life, but the focus figures to be more firmly placed in the city. That is all to the good with what is coming for the rest of the sixties. Again, seeing Don as a swinging bachelor in downtown apartment might be fun. It would have the side benefit of leaving him deeply unhappy.
Of Don's mistresses, the only one that I would like to see again is the Rome version of Betty. Suzanne Farrell gave him the nurturing that he was seeking outside the home, which is why she was a bit dull. Ironically, the most heat we have ever gotten from any were from Don and Betty pretending to have an affair. Take the suburbs away with its daily responsibilities away and Betty became a much better match for her husband.
All of which has me curious about where Betty is going to end up next season. Her prospective second husband does not seem to excite her in the least and the domestic life that she despises is not going to vanish. If anything, it will be worse as Henry is a bad bet to provide the limited relief Don offered. She is jumping from the proverbial frying pan into the fire.
I can't see Sal not returning in some fashion — too many potentially great angles for MW explore.
Betty for sure is not gone.
I liked her more than most people here, but I do not think Suzanne will return. She served as a voyage of discovery for Don, but that voyage is over. The potential tension of her brother returning has been lost with teh Draper divorce.
I could actually see Carla's role increasing, but that's probably just wishful thinking.
As for the old SC crowd, perhaps they will now serve as foils as Duck did, as part of other agencies. Ken and Pete are redundant, even though Layne picked Ken as the winner of that bake-off. Kinsey is second-rate and would only be brought back to SCDP if the new firm really took off. Same for Smitty, Kurt and Dale (who, let's face it, were bit players anyway).
As for the executive assistants (who wouldn't be called that for another 20 years)…you have think Joan will make the calls on that. That could mean someone like Allison is in, but Joan would never let Lois near the new firm, would she?
Actually — and it pains me to say this — perhaps the real surprise next season will be the loss of one of the core group. For example, as much as I would miss Robert Morse and his amazing portrayal, I have to admit that Bert, say, dying of a heart attack would open up some very interesting dramatic possibilities. For all his quirky wisdom, what Bert really does is serve as the glue that holds everyone together — without him, you could really see some potential for conflict at the new firm. I'm not predicting this, but if The Sopranos is any indicator, we should not assume anyone (save Don) is a keeper.
Carla; the Elevator Operator; Don's Smoking Waiter (1.1); Paul's girlfriend. End of an era.
But I have a soft spot in my heart for Rachael. I know it’s highly unlikely, but now that Don’s in the city, I can’t help wondering if their paths might cross, would make for some great dramatic tension.
Yes, I guess I could see a scene or two with Rachel, if only to serve as a wistful reminder of what might have been had they met each other at the right time in their lives.
Think Don will start dating blondes? OK, that would be…. weird. I wonder what kind of woman he will be attracted to now that he's become more integrated as a person, less traumatized by his past, and is free to have a legitimate relationship. Was sneaking around half of the appeal for him with his previous affairs? Now he has no reason not to have a real commitment with a woman. I wonder if that will frighten him.
#8 not_Bridget: I don't think Ossining will judge Betty harshly at all, because she is marrying (we assume) a powerful man. As far as we know, Don was not active at all in the local community, beyond attending a few events at school, like the eclipse watch. By contrast, Betty is now associated with the man who helped save the reservoir.
Her friends may gossip, but they may not be her friends all that much longer, given the world that she is about to enter.
I am looking forward to seeing Don's new apartment. I see him in something very stylish and modern, rather than a Village walkup.
Think Hilton will be back? I could make a case for myself either way.
Upon reflection, Connie really was a good father to Don, right when he needed it. So, in one sense, the Hilton story line has served its purpose. But Chelcie Ross was so great, and Connie is one of the few who can knock Don around a bit, that I'd love to see him back.
#16, I have a hope that the new SCDP art director might be African American.
There's no reason they couldn't have Sal as a full-time freelancer at least for every account besides LS. And also, the only reason there was an encounter between Sal and Lee is because Sal was directing their commercial. As Art Director, he could do their work all day every day and never come into contact with the client – Don and Roger would do the meetings.
Brenda, not disagreeing with your premise about Ossining, but Henry DIDN'T save the reservoir. The board reversed the decision almost immediately, while Betty & Don were in Rome.
Still, I can see Betty lording it over her friends in Ossining with her new politically connected husband. Even after Rocky loses the nomination, he still remained the be governor of NY for quite a long time, so Bets will be in the inner circle there. IF she actually marries Henry, that is.
I can't wait to see Don's bachelor pad too! I wish the Sally & Bobby would move in with him, but I don't really see that happening. I hope they spend every weekend in the city with him at least.
I'm a little confused about one thing: who gets to keep the house in Ossining? I mean, Don paid for it, so shouldn't he be the one who lives there while Betty moves in with Henry Francis (or takes over her father's estate)? Why did Don move into an apartment anyway, especially since Betty is gone to Reno? I'm competely unfamiliar with divorce procedures, so if anyone could fill me in on that, it'd be great.
# brenda: But will Betty be stuck in Ossining? We know she hates it. I'd love it if she accepted Henry's help with the divorce but declined–or delayed–the marriage. However, if she's foolish enough to refuse alimony, she will be beholden to him.
I can see it now: Betty, Gene & Harry arrive with late Christmas presents.
–Hello, children, here's your new, umm….
–Grandpa! He can sleep in the scary room!
–Carla, meet Henry Francis.
–We've met…
Or they could move in with Henry. Or his career might carry them far away. But I hope the kids get good supporting roles next year. With Betty smiling/fuming in the corner. If they stay in Ossining, we won't lose Carla.
I'd love to see Sal next year. Perhaps Lucky Strike Jr will meet a grisly end & Don can grovel sufficiently to bring him back. If not, he'll still be in the industry & might get to check in.
In Allison, Don finally found a good secretary; maybe they can hire her. I'd at least like to a brief look at the Old SC Gang in their new lives, rather than picture them wandering the streets of NYC along with Chauncey. Speaking of Chauncey–Duck will be offended that Peggy didn't clue him in on the big move. Distraught that she was only using him for sex, he goes into a decline. (Or gets better & hires some of the Old Gang.)
Didn't Carla come up from the Philadelphia area, where she had been Betty's own nanny and where Betty met her again when she went down to visit her father (and Gloria) after his stroke? Or am I confusing two people? Maybe she'd move on again, wherever Betty and the kids live. Though it's unclear where she goes home to at night – we've never seen her outside Betty's homes, have we?
I will miss Kitty. I've loved every scene she's been in (granted there haven't been many).
I have this idea rattling in my head that I'm not sure I can really put to paper (or screen if you will). All the talk about the Beatles being around the corner got me thinking: just as the Beatles were the bright up-beat peppy can-do phenomenon that lifted the US from the depression of the Kennedy assasination, this last episode was a real corner-turner from the last couple depressing dull-colored episodes before it.
berkowit28- you are unintentionally hilarious! Grandpa Gene confusing Viola (the Hofstadt housekeeper/ nanny) with Carla lead to one of Carla's best lines in the show.
I think the gang will be back on the show. The main worries are the Surgeon General's Report in 1964. Will Lucky Strike want to go to a new agency for a fresh approach?
#25 They are two different people. Betty's nanny back at her father's house was Viola. Actually, in "My Old Kentucky Home," Gene calls Carla Viola, and Carla corrects him. Then he asks her if she knows Viola, to which Carla responds "We don't all know each other, Mr. Hofstadt!"
I know she's the least qualified to be hired back, but I do like having Lois around. She's good comic relief. Especially in a drama series than can have very intense serious scenes, it needs a few good laughs to cut the tension every once in a while. And Lois does that well, although Harry (and Roger) did that well in the season finale.
Has anyone here watched the new ABC comedy "Hank"? I don't think it's gonna be around for long, but Crista Flanagan plays Melinda McGraw's (Bobbie Barrett) sister-in-law on the show. Crista's character is very similar to Lois…slow and dimwitted.
ER- having a bumbling fool around for comic relief would be fun, but it just wouldn't be realistic that SCDP hires Lois. No one INTENTIONALLY hires an idiot (especially a dangerous one!), and they already know she is one.
MW will find another character to provide comic relief.
I think the most astute observation of "Shut the door…" was that it could have served as the Series Finale. In a sense it was that. If we accept the premise that the Kennedy assassination was the cataclysmic event that created a foundational shift that forever changed society, then too, the Kennedy assassination created a foundational shift that forever changed Mad Men.
Matt has said that the show is about the evolution of people as they move through history. And each season is almost it's own novel. Which is why you can't judge the show on a few episodes each season, you have to wait until you see the whole story play out, through the season finale. And ultimately the show finale.
Don is the central character, everyone else is expendable. In life, people move in and out of our spheres all the time. Matt, to his credit is brave enough, to be that realistic and stay true to his story instead of audience popularity. So the only people we know for sure will return in Season 4 are the new SCD&P folks. I think it would be contrived to start bringing over Paul, and Ken, and Lois, etc. just because we like the characters. Wouldn't Paul or Ken be to proud to seek employment there after they were considered expendable in the coup?
The foundation of the story has completely changed. Don is now a whole person. He may still be damaged from his childhood, but he's no longer a man living one way on the inside and another on the outside. His existential angst is gone. His deep secret is no more and he chose a new family to ground him. From here on out, he's free to be Master of the Advertising Universe and New York. He's got nothing to hide. He's free to screw anyone he wants anytime he wants. He can be as much or as little a father as he wants. He's finally got the freedom he so craved the first three seasons. So what does he do with it?
As for Ossining? Why in the world would Matt keep that in the show? Why would Betty stay there? It's not her hometown. She hates the house and her friends and I really can't see Henry Francis sleeping in Don Draper's bed. Can you? Henry Francis works out of Albany, wouldn't they move there? The only way Betty could stay in Ossining would be if she didn't marry HF and had to stay in the house for financial reasons. And other than being mother to Don's kids, what other link does she have to the show? Not advertising. She's not going to be a friend and confidante of Don's. She's no longer his home base. His kids will visit him, so other than a phone call or a kid pass off, why would we even see her on screen? Don's life is all Manhattan now, not Ossining.
Betty can't lord her new husband around Ossining after being seen so publicly with him at the town hall meeting. It makes her appear to be an adulteress. Look at Happy Rockefeller: Remarrying is WAY different from marrying your lover.
Betty will stay in Ossining, at least short-term, so that the children don't get yanked out of school and so that the children are in a house big enough to accommodate them. It almost always goes that way; that's why the suburbs are full of single moms and the cities are full of single dads.
Why does Betty get to keep the house? Don bought it, didn't he? And Betty inherited her dad's estate, right?
So true Aran. I wrote somewhere that if this had been the series finale, I would have been OK with it.
In fact, re-watching last night, I wondered if the opening credit montage even makes sense anymore. Is Don still the falling man? I guess he still has a way to go.
Re: Betty. Henry lives in Chappaqua, which is what –10 miles from Ossining? so maybe they'll move there, assuming they do in fact get married. My jury is out on that. I could see it going either way. I *think* she'll come to her senses about the alimony/settlement before the divorce. At minimum, I think Don will give her the house. He can afford it, and I doubt it means anything to him. Plus either way, he'll pay a hefty child support because he won't want his kids wanting for anything. He's not going to fight her on any of it.
I think we might see SOME of Betty, and get some hints of how her life is going but only insofar as she and Don have conflicts involving the kids.
Carla can’t be gone! Betty surely isn’t going to magically become a better mother after 6 weeks in Reno.
Betty will stay in Ossining, at least short-term, so that the children don’t get yanked out of school and so that the children are in a house big enough to accommodate them.
Yeah, that's probably the most realistic scenario. Plus, Henry and Betty might have dreams of Washington DC dancing in their heads (which wont be dashed until July or so,) so they might think they should hold off on making any moves until the election is over.
Can someone please point me in the direction of Dale (episode-wise)? I swear I can't recall who he is, and I know he's only had a small part anyway.
Things that don't bode well for Kinsey: SCDP are in need of youth and youthful concepts as they progress thru the 60's, and while Paul is in his 20's he is a throwback to another time…an old soul who isn't edgy enough for a modern client. He fits well in an agency with 40 years history, because SC drew clients based upon reputation and tenure….but when you pare down and start a new (small) company, he won't be their immediate need. Same with Ken…you just don't have space in a hotel-room-sized company for extra manpower right now.
Shame…cause the SC office antics are my favorite part of the show. I hope the show's storyline hasn't eclipsed the fascination of seeing a 60's office at work.
I agree. I dont think we have seen the last of Betty. She will be a subplot now like Joan was in the first three seasons. But her subplot will be good. She is now living the life she wants, will it be a good one? That has yet to be determined. You could already see her sense of grief and “lost” gaze as she rides on the train to Reno with baby Gene and Henry.
#30 Right. Thanks for putting me right.
#32 I'm not certain that Don is the sole, 100%, focus of the show now. I would not be surprised if we continue to follow Betty as a subplot, mostly, of course as she interacts with him about the kids. But I suspect that will be a very big element of Don's life. Sally will probably be unhappy with Betty, will want more of Don. We're going to see some of that directly – Sally and Bobby in their home, with their mother, not just as they arrive on Don's doorstep. We may also see some of the old SC crowd occasionally, if anyone in the new SCDP keeps contact with them, and not just the way that Peggy "kept contact" with Duck. Like Harry, for example. I can see him meeting up with Ken or Paul. But I think Betty will still have a bigger part than that to play in the show. Weiner has been interested in her, and in the marriage now ending, especially in this season. I don't think he's going to drop her story completely, whatever else is happening with Don.
Betty will stay in Ossining, at least short-term, so that the children don’t get yanked out of school and so that the children are in a house big enough to accommodate them.
Maybe. Betty isn't really known for giving a thought to what her children need. Cuz she is on a plane to Reno for six weeks just before Xmas. Don's moved out of the house. She really couldn't wait two weeks to be there for her kids on the holidays? Yeah we saw tears in her eyes during the "Mommy and Daddy are splitting up" scene…but she's on the plane now? She just never thinks about anyone but herself, and she certainly NEVER thinks about how her children feel.
I suspect Cosgrove or Kinsey might make an occasional guest appearance. You know, their respective paths are crossed when Pete or Peggy is making a client call, or catching a cocktail after work. (Remember, geographically speaking Madison Avenue can be a very small world.)
Yet I can't seem them credibly joining the new firm as they don't seem to have any champions among the stakeholders; i.e., I would think SCD&P would be inclined to hire new blood for their positions, which for now are redundant. And let's face it: new blood, specifically Duck and to a lesser extent Pryce, have given this show a nice boost the last two seasons.
Sal, on the other hand, could credibly return. If nothing else, his job is a necessary one unless SCD&P plans on contracting out illustrators. Of course Weiner and company would have to deal with the Lucky Strike/Garner issue, but one can at least see a feasible explanation for his return.
Betty's not going anywhere but I do hope her story becomes new and fresh, and basically as free from Don's as possible. Heck, if Weiner and his writers really want to set the bar high, show us a happy and content Betty. Now that would be something to see.
Paul's probably a goner. The whole Aquanet and Western Union storyline with Peggy was building up to what happened in the season finale. Upon hearing about Don's departure, the first place Paul went was Peggy's office. He was pissed that once again, Peggy came out ahead.
Why would Suzanne not resurface? In Roberta's interview with JH, he stated that "it was all right there" and seemed surprised at the viewer confusion. Although I'm in the minority, I clearly saw the connection and the appeal. He'll soon be single, she's single . . . Perhaps it was just an "escape" relationship and he won't crave the nurturing anymore, but he truly seemed to enjoy her simplicity. Will the new "unburdened" Don learn from the Betty mistakes and stay true to the core of his being? Will he live the swinging single life in Manhattan for awhile? Thoughts?
I'd like to see Smitty brought back, if only because he'd be good boyfriend material for Peggy.
His friend Kurt appreciates Peggy, and in the scene where they got high, it appeared Smitty was attracted. He'd be a nice antidote to the slimy Duck.
SCDP is now working with a "skeleton" crew, they could use a freelance Sal for art and commercial direction (on every account but tobacco.)
Sorry, but there's never been much to Ken, except as a foil to Pete and a straight guy crush for Sal.
Alison is better secretary material than Lois, that's for sure. Now that Lois has demonstrated the Peter Principle in action, she can be used as comic relief to answer the phones (head of switchboard, as sop to her ego?) and free Joan up to read scripts and manage the office.
I can't imagine McCann keeping Lois on as a secretary, not for very long, anyway.
As for Kinsey, I'm not sure I'll miss him one way or the other. Sorry, but I can't come up with a good excuse for the new firm to hire him.
Not looking forward to Suzanne returning, either: the character was badly written, and schizo: was she a free spirit, or wackadoo?
Like Midge and Joy, she never seemed to be a real person, just a badly-executed representation of an idea of a mistress.
Rachel and Bobbi were people, but I can't imagine either being brought back, because their character arc was complete.
I thought Midge was awesome. I think she was my favorite mistress, mostly because at least for a while there, she and Don had fun with each other. Plus, she was cool.
Joy – meh. Does she even count as a mistress?
Bobbie of course is a no-go. I don't think Don even really liked her, although I liked her.
Rachel – don't see Rachel falling for him again. He really wounded her.
Suzanne- well, it's a lot less convenient now that Don's in the Village and she's still in Ossining. Don't think she's really worth the drive.
I want Don to have ALL NEW girlfriends! (Hey! They aren't mistresses anymore, are they?) so he can have a fresh start with his relationships. Wonder if he'll just hop from bed to bed, or if he wants a real relationship.
Plus, I'm looking forward to new employees at SCDP.
Red: We don't know what the financial arrangements on the house will be. I already explained why she stays in it, regardless.
Dale, played by Mark Kelly, has been in exactly three episodes. You most recently saw him talking about Vietnam before getting splattered with foot-blood. In S2, he fell asleep in the conference room while waiting for Don to show up late for a meeting.
#15 – I could actually see Carla’s role increasing, but that’s probably just wishful thinking
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Carla must be making a killing on babysitting money (6 weeks 24/7) – she might even have enough to be a SCDP investor.
I'll be sad if the other people at S-C are gone. But I understand why the choice would be made.
It would be nice to see Sal as a free lance shop and have him run into Lee accidentally.
Some other nice things to see… Bob Dylan in his London mod gear walk by Don in the Village with Don totally clueless. Just a throwaway moment.
No more Kitty Romano, either..
I'm kind of surprised so many people around The Net do think Betty is done…I'm hoping for a time jump though and she is either on husband #3 or alone without Henry and enjoying Don's money. Hopefully she's out of Ossining too.
Bob Dylan in his London mod gear walk by Don in the Village with Don totally clueless. Just a throwaway moment.
Better yet, Don having a fling with a gorgeous blonde waif named Edie, who introduces him to some weird artist named Andy with a studio he calls The Factory.
My gut instincts about the coming season when it comes to the characters are like this:
SCDP: Lane gets promoted to full-time cast member. We'll likely see a few new faces, including the show's first full-time African-American character.
Paul: No doubt in my mind he'll be back, somehow.
Ken: Most likely will be back, but probably as more of an antagonist than before.
Sal: Absolutely will be back, but in a distinctly different form. I suspect he'll probably be working at a television network or for a commercial house.
The Secretaries: I'm willing to bet Hildy will be back somehow. Strong doubts about Olive, Lois and Alison. Alison would probably follow Ken somewhere.
The Hansons: No, I think they're probably out of the picture. Not that big of a loss, in my mind.
Carla: She's definitely sticking around. Betty's going to need someone to take care of her kids while she's going on adventures with Henry (can you tell I'm snarky and bitter about that?).
Gypsy,
Don would see thru the falseness and back-stabbing that was the Factory in a New York minute. **picturing mega-constipated look on Don's face**
dance- oh yeah, but wouldn't it make a hilarious scene? Remember Don in the beatnik bar with Midge and Roy? I wonder if he'd wear his suit, tie and hat at The Factory.
I really really really hope we NEVER see Don in a nehru jacket, ruffled shirt and bell bottoms. And for god's sake Don, DO NOT GROW YOUR SIDEBURNS. (Jon Hamm, if you are reading this, you MUST put your foot down about this.)
I sure am going to miss Lois.
In regards to Paul and Kenny…the show has established Pete, Harry, Paul & Ken as a gang. I get the impression they often get together for drinks and sometimes strippers after work. Would Pete & Harry joining the wild gang and Paul and Ken being left to become corperate cogs mean the end of them socialising? Maybe. Maybe not. It would be interesting to see the tension between the four (former?) friends if they carried on meeting up for drinks. But perhaps they were never really that close. Pete and Harry's friendship might be the only genuine one. But I'd still love to see the tension. Especially with the grudges between Pete/Ken and Kinsey's general resentment at being overlooked.
#45 Yeah! Midge was my favourite too. I liked that Midge had an 'I can take him or leave him' attitude towards her affair with Don. Suzanne claimed she was going to have that attitude but instead became clingy and pathetic. I always had the impression that Midge had a great freewheeling lifestyle outside her affair with Don. Now that Don is moving into an appartment in the Village there is a good chance he could cross paths with Midge again. Not saying I want them to restart their fling, but I'd love to see such an old school character again. I'd also love to see Helen Bishop again (and Glen!) now that Betty is officially joining her in the divorce club.
It's likely that in the coming season the series will jump ahead several years as it did in this just finished season. Many of the conflicts–the children, the side characters, the lingering affairs, etc–could be presented or skipped over as fully resolved. If we jump to 1965 or 66 for instance, where do you all think the core characters will be in an more "established" MM universe full of new conflicts? The new agency could be humming along and what else? I think that only a few "big" questions can carry over . . . obv race, the emerging youth culture, and how about real feminism, that trickles into even Betty???
Heh. I'd like to see a out-of-the-closet Sal in some fabulous drag outfit at the Factory.
#45 & # 57 Another vote for Midge, here! "A real character" in a cameo.
# 47 "Carla must be making a killing on babysitting money (6 weeks 24/7) – she might even have enough to be a SCDP investor." I made 35 cents an hour babysitting in 1963. It took many many many weekends to earn my $14 mohair sweater.
Please bring Anna back (and Sal, of course)!
# 58 "The new agency could be humming along and what else?"
Ummm, Vietnam?
This list refers only to characters directly influenced by the season finale.
Characters that MUST return:
-Sal
-Hildy
-Carla (Though I actually think we'll see more of her in S4)
-Allison
-Francine
Characters I'd like to see come back but won't be crushed without:
-Ken
-Kurt
-Lois
Everyone else, I can do without.
I'm wondering, will Henry move into the Draper house? Since he was so adamant that she not take anything from Don I'm thinking he's going to want her in his house or something they move into together. New marriage, new house?
Alison is going to be hired by SCDP. It took Don so long to find a secretary that he liked and understood him, once he has the space he's definitely going to hire her.
I think Sal will start his own shop, or free-lance. He had expressed a desire to do so before he was fired. SCDP could hire him for most of their accounts, just not Lucky Strike.
I agree with others that Betty and the children won't move until summer. Pulling children out of school in the middle of the year would be hard, plus Henry doesn't know if he might be moving again.
The Republican Convention took place July 13 to July 16, so by the end of summer, Henry would know that his boss did not get the nomination, and would be willing to find a new place to live, or have Betty and the kids move in with him.
Betty won't stay in Ossining- the whole town will be talking about Don and Suzanne's affair as he was so careless.
I hope she moves to Manhattten and goes to work for Sal in some competing agency as the Breck Girl- where Don will have to see her face splashed everywhere- TV, Magazines, time square…!
If Paul doesn't come back I will cry myself to sleep for a thousand nights.
Does anyone else doubt that Betty will marry Henry Francis? He may be her reason to secure a divorce, but as for her next husband … I don't know.
Hasn't she already made quite a solid case for not marrying a man she barely knows? And he has never met the children — aside from Gene. Does this seem like something a woman of her time would have done?
I see Betty returning to Ossining as a divorcee … and whether she marries Henry or not, eventually needing to sell the Hofstadt family home to provide for herself and the kids. I don't see Henry as someone who can follow through on that particular promise.
As for Sal: I hope we'll see him again. I don't know whether Matt and Company will allow for it, but I did not see our little group at the Pierre really having a strong player in that role.
Great question, Deb!
As a The Wire watcher, let me reassure folks that even if some or all of these particular characters are gone, I have every confidence that there will be more great characters to come. Look how completely we all fell in love with Lane.
That said, I'd love to see more of Sal, Ken, Paul, Hollis, Carla, Francine & Lois. Hell, I want Freddie back, too, but that ain't happening.
Here's hoping that Betty is more of a side-story than THE story next season. As great as the last few episodes were (along with episodes 1, 3, 5 and 6) there was a chunk of episodes in the middle that were IMO pretty weak and I think it was primarily to do with the focus on the Draper family. I don't want Betty to be dumped from the show (and honestly, how could she? Don will have to deal with her in order to see his kids), but I do hope her character takes a backseat to the folks at SCDP. It's kinda funny – Betty is often compared to the classic "Hitchcock blondes" (namely Grace Kelly) and it was said that Hitchcock absolutely adored Grace Kelly. I kinda feel like Weiner has that same kind of love/devotion to January Jones' portrayal of Betty. I hope he preserves that but also allows for us (and Don) to get away from the Ossining melodrama.
With respect to the list of people from SC, I personally don't think that those guys & gals will be anything more than guest characters next season. I can see subplots that could involve Paul or Ken, but I don't think Weiner would want to focus on the old SC too much. I also don't necessarily think that, having been spurned in the initial formation of the new firm, Ken or Paul would want to join if asked later on. Frankly, of the two I'd rather see Paul back – he was a much more developed character. Ken just serves as a foil for Pete or Sal (tear) or Harry – he's never had a distinct story of his own and while it's nice to have somebody who's all sunshine-y at the office, his luck was a little unbelievable to me. I think Sal is the most likely to have a significant minor role next season, but as others have mentioned, he can't join SCDP because they still have Lucky Strikes. Nonetheless, he's too good a character to just abandon like that and I have a feeling that Weiner will bring him back at some point, if only for a short arc of a few episodes.
A bit of a non-sequitar, but what do people think of Duck's inclusion this season and whether he'll come back next season? It seemed like the episode description of "The Grown-ups" was incorrect – I never saw Peggy second-guessing her taste in men (i.e. Duck). We don't see any resolution to their relationship, not to mention that after that dramatic introduction it, it was treated only very cursorily. I really thought that Duck would make an appearance in the last episode. Thoughts? Maybe Weiner wanted to save the uber-juicy potential plot of Don (and/or Pete!) finding out about Duck and Peggy for next season? It just seems like either a sloppy subplot/red herring as things stand right now.
I'll be happy enough if the story moves on keeping only a core – happier probably than I would be if the story used contrivances to keep too much of the old gang together. Having said that, I can see Joan selectively recruiting the secretaries she trusts as the company grows, which could get us Alison at least (I can't see her taking Lois). And I can see Don employing Carla as a housekeeper actually, as he will eventually need a house that the kids can visit.
The one whose story I most wanted to see more of was Sal. I want to know how it ends, I must say. I can't really see Don agreeing to take Sal back, given they are now more dependent on tobacco than ever, but they will desperately need an artist at some point – I can't see Peggy or Pete drawing up mock-ups.
Is it just me, or is MW yanking everyone's chain with the supporting cast? This may all be publicity. Personally, I feel it is a TV show, a narrative, a story. We've invested in these characters and followed these actors. It's totally perverse to cut them loose, not to mention cruel to the actors who made this show in the first two seasons. The absence of Sal is ridiculous — Bryan Batt is cut loose because it proves a point – in reality gays were marginalized. So what? It's a clever deconstruction of traditional narrative, but it does not make for satisfying television. The Ken/Pete competition could go full force next year. Paul could help Pete with the Negro market.
There's a fine line between surprising audiences' expectations and alienating them by not developing plotlines. I'm sure the cast will return.
#70 Here's an interesting recent interview with MW where he discusses not giving the audience what they want.
http://www.kcrw.com/etc/programs/tt/tt091104matth…
I've been thinking about Sal and Ken. Maybe there's a possibility of the two of them working together and then coming into contact with SCD&P. One that would bring the Ken coming to Sal's house for dinner and the lighter story full circle. Not to hint they'd be a couple…but I don't remember any "you people" type homophobic-ness from Ken at anytime. In fact, just the opposite. "What time isn't it?"
Ken & Sal were in the group Kurt came out to last season. After Kurt left the room, Ken expressed his outrage at the "pervert."
There is another possible interpretation of Don's "you people." But Ken's homophobic reaction left no doubts.
Now that Lane Pryce is staying on, I wonder if we might see more of Embeth Davidtz as Mrs. Pryce — or will she get her wish and go back to London?
Unless the story jumps ahead quite a bit (a la #58) wouldn't a few business issues have to play out for credibility's sake?
For example, McCann Erickson buys PP&L which includes the very successful SC. Wouldn't McCann go after SCDP? They can't just take clients, employees, files, break down doors — can they? Without a fight?
Only Bert has any experience starting a business. Roger inherited, as he noted. The rest will have a steep learning curve.
I think this is where the action will be next season. Throw in Duck, Sal, and the remnant SC to the battle as well.
#71 Thanks for the link. I read that article, and that's what I'm referring to – it's perverse. If MW said he was deconstructing or whatever, fine; but he's explicit in "not giving the audience what they want." I'm afraid there is going to be more "AJ" and less "Uncle Jun." The Wire was very satisfying because you cried when the characters died; there was a tragic inevitability to it and it made sense, given the lifestyle. The characters went out with strong story lines. No Ken, Paul and African American characters but introductions to Suzanne, the brother and the hitchhikers? However, we shall see. I'm betting they all return.
#73 NB… Aww man! I knew right after I posted someone was going to bust my bubble. I totally forgot that tidbit! Thanks for the reminder. I'll go back to daydreaming some more farfetched fantasies in which my faves can reappear.
Am I the only one who is not fussed about losing Alison? I think her character is quite bland and forgettable. I would miss the other secretaries like Hildy, Lois, Olive and even Mr Hooker so much more. They were characters.
I could see Midge and Salvatore coming on as freelancers, which I would love. I don't see Midge and Don having another fling, but I loved her snarkiness with him. "You think I'd make a good ex-wife" is still one of the. Best. Mad Men. Lines. Ever.
I think it would be interesting to see one of Don's past flings in a purely platonic relationship with him. I love the idea of their being history, but no potential for a future. I think it would create an interesting dynamic.
@ 15 Sir Hillary "Actually — and it pains me to say this — perhaps the real surprise next season will be the loss of one of the core group. For example, as much as I would miss Robert Morse and his amazing portrayal, I have to admit that Bert, say, dying of a heart attack would open up some very interesting dramatic possibilities. "
I'm quite sure that Weiner originally inteneded to kill off Roger at the end of season 1 — particularly after the second heart attack, when they pulled that "Weekend at Bernie's" routine to hold on to the American Tobacco account. (One of my favorite bits from MM — my wife started yelling at me because I was in hysterics as Roger clutched his chest.) BUT, MW just couldn't let go of Roger, given how well the actor, role and writers work together.
But Bertram, they could kill off… maybe he could die from lung cancer after 40 years of exposure to second hand smoke!
DO- I'm kinda hoping Bert gets a bigger role next season. Roger's sole function, as we know, is to drink, smoke and read the paper until Lee Garner wants something. What does Bert do business-wise, besides collect art, nap and eat pudding?
@ 42 Laura Lyn "Why would Suzanne not resurface?"
I agree 100%. Not many in this forum enjoyed the character of Suzanne and, rightfully so, describe her character as incomplete. Perhaps Suzanne is developed in S4. Sally loved her, and maybe Suzanne becomes the mother that Sally has never had.
Up until now, Don has been "Dick" when he's been with most of his mistresses. I'm assuming that going forward, Don&Dick are more fully integrated. I agree that Suzanne was unfinished, but I think the fact she was portrayed sympathetically indicates she has a future in the show.
@81 gypsy howell "What does Bert do business-wise, besides collect art, nap and eat pudding?"
Bert has, from the start, been a very a convenient device for MW to reveal to the viewer what has really been going on. Don and Roger and Lane all lie and BS to their clients and coworkers, but the scenes in Bert's office generally have been interludes of truth telling. Same thing with Don's time with mistresses… except for the flashbacks, we'd be clueless as to the real Don/Dick except when he's playing hide the salami.
But I would like to see Bert involved in some juicy story line…. Maybe Bert will run into Sal at a gay bar, and ….. Well that can be the last scene of S4, and we can talk about THAT for 10 months.
Maybe Don will move in with Bert, Odd Couple-style.
Actually, after Pryce's wife sails back to England with her nose in the air, Lane and Don would make the perfect Odd Couple, wouldn't they?
I'd watch that show!
Anne B Hostage Crisis Day Four!! Why won't they let her leave?
Free Anne B! Free AnneB!
Oops! retract that! I should have checked the comment feed.
Welcome back.
I think Carla will still be around, Betty will probably keep her on or maybe Don will ask her to work for him on his weekends with the kids, sort of as a part-time thing. I pray Sal comes back, love him. Ken, meh we know so little about him, with his hair
. Plus Pete would probably have a fit if they bring Cosgrove in to the newly formed SCDP once they get scaled up. They would be INSANE to bring Lois in, though she is good occassional comic relief.
It would be good to see the reaction Francine and the other Junior League women give Betty, especially in light of how Francine felt about Helen Bishop. I also wish we could see Sara Beth's reaction to little Miss "I disapprove of your infidelity (which I orchestrated) and can no longer be your friend" getting divorced and possibly marrying another man in a suspiciously short amount of time.
That would just be funny. We probably won't get any of that though.
In terms of Suzanne coming back, I wonder if Don is actually prepared to date someone who won't make the perfect corporate wife. Losing Betty is not just a personal loss, it's a professional one as well, as he has used her sophistication again and again to cement his part as the perfect ad-man and woo clients. I can't see Suzanne coping at all in that role. Although it might be an interesting storyline if Don tries to push her too.
Ah, less of me. Were you watching soap operas again?
I was only MOSTLY dead …
I walked into a Blockbuster a few nights ago and they were playing that ( a welcome change from Transformers I say) and I just…couldn't…walk…out the door. Stood there for about fifteen minutes watching them climb up the Cliffs of Insanity. The real funny part is that there were about 4-5 other people standing there talking the lines along with me!
Kurt and Smitty are my favorites! I really fell for Smitty especially after "My Old Kentucky Home." I think there is a good chance that they will be coming to SCDP in the future though (I'll be mad if they don't!). They're forward-thinking, they work well with Peggy, and they haven't been overused.
I think Hildy and/or Allison have a good chance of being recruited to SCDP – I'll miss them if they're not.
Ken, Sal, Paul – I hope there will be some use for them next season. I understand it may not be viable for all (or any) of them to come work for SCDP. If they don't, I hope we still see them from time to time working for rival agencies.
Im curious to see if Don will be as interested in having as many "flings" as he did during his marriage. Part of the allure was escapism. Now that he is a single man with his own company will he or should I say is he more capable of having an honest relationship. I hope so, otherwise he really hasn't learnt much. It would be easy for Don to justify that his marriage failed because "he wasn't to the manor born" but that's just an excuse. His marriage failed because he lied everyday of his marriage on many different levels. If there's no trust then there's no marriage.
I'm kind of surprised that so many wonder if Betty will figure into the new season, or feel her role will be substantially diminished. I don't know, but my feeling is that she will definitely still be a major character on the show. It never occurred to me that she wouldn't.
You know who I miss? Helen Bishop. Now she won't be the only divorcee if Betty stays in Ossining. I hope they bring her back. I always thought she would be a good match for Don.
Don needs to play the field for a while and not pretend to be in any committed relationship because he's proven he can't commit himself. Love the guy anyway!
I'll miss Ken the most if they don't bring in the old SC gang. He was so underutilized this season. I want him explored more — Rhode Island farm boy, aspiring writer … they could do a lot with him. Paul is not likable but I still think he's a good supporting character to the show.
Sal must must must return. I still have to check out his shop here in New Orleans on Magazine Street!
I'd also like to see Peggy's life outside of the office explored more, and I don't mean her "nooners" with Duck. I want to see her and her fun/wild-sounding roommate in their Manhattan apartment.
I think Sal will be back, and he'll be able to work with Lucky Strikes. Why? Doesn't anyone remember him in the park, the night he got fired, with the gay pickups going on behind him? Sal's finally going to open that closet door, and welcome in Lucky Jr. More heartbreak ahead for Kitty! But I would like to think they'll come up with a workable compromise, because I believe they do love each other in their own way.
I can't wait for Joan's unworthy husband to go to Vietnam and leave her free to take over the universe. She will make a lovely widow. Jane will get shot protesting at Kent State, and Joan & Roger will quietly move in together and finally be happy.
Lane's snooty wife will go back to London. He'll meet some groovy free-love hippy chick who won't care where he went to school and he's going to grow and amazing set of muttonchops and start wearing striped bellbottoms and furry vests.
That's my wishful thinking for S4.
Hmmm JustZoot… never thought about Sal saying yes to Lee Jr now.
Well, if Peggy can say yes to Duck, I guess anything can happen.
[...] Things you might want to see here include: our character and cultural Bible, speculation on who stays and who goes in season 4, and a comparison of Mad Men to [...]
I've been watching S1 of MM and wondered…where did the Drapers' dog go? Have we seen it since S1? Did it run away and meet Chauncey?
Mama L, the Draper dog (Polly) is seen frequently, and was there with Carla and the kids in the final scene of Shut the Door. Have a Seat.
I think Sal will be back, and he’ll be able to work with Lucky Strikes. Why? Doesn’t anyone remember him in the park, the night he got fired, with the gay pickups going on behind him? Sal’s finally going to open that closet door, and welcome in Lucky Jr.
Well, except for the part where Sal wasn't even the slightest bit attracted to him.
Repelled, in fact. This ain't Luke and Laura, he ain't hooking up with his attacker.
Lord have mercy, I need to get my eyes examined. I’ll have to watch that again. I think what it is is that I concentrate so much on the actors that all the rest falls to the wayside. thanks, DL!
I just had this thought.
Wouldn’t it be great if in season 4, some years after 1963, Peggy would try to hire Paul to work under her at SCDP (ha!).
Peggy/Duck reversed, kind of.
And in the end he accepts, and stands for a new man who isn’t afraid of powerful women?
I don’t really think that the character Paul Kinsey will be gone from the show, especially because MW said that Paul also represents an important part of him.
Well, didn’t he say that?
Gee Whiz!
CRANE – The loyalists are always hung, and you don't want to get caught in the fallout.
KINSEY – What's wrong with you? Aren't you loyal to anyone?
CRANE – They don't care about us. We're just a bunch of salaries on a ledger. They'll draw a line and get rid of everything below it.
KINSEY – I like this company the way it is.
Right after he says this, Pete gives a queer look at Paul and walks away, which is the end of the scene. I think it was an augury of what was to come all along – the demise of Sterling Cooper and its resurrection as Sterling Cooper Draper and Pryce and who will be a part of it. Harry and Pete against Ken, Paul and Sal. I think it was right under our noses all along. Sorry if I'm not the first one to notice and write about this.
Sorry if I’m not the first one to notice and write about this.
Linus you totally are!
SALLY SALLY SALLY
Don and Betty's eldest is one of the best things in the show. Must have lots of simmering fury from Sally now Henry's on the scene as substitute Daddy. A better model for Daddy's Girl I have never seen. So they can't drop Betty and the domestic Draper scene or no more Sally… That kid's going to be one compelling actress to watch.