Jon Hamm talks to the Basket

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Jon and I spoke last Tuesday, November 3rd. He is fascinating to speak with; he is so intimate with this character in a way that is hard to imagine. Plus he’s just really, really cool. The voice is smooth, and deliberate and steadying. I was very much put at ease within the first few minutes.

Oh! And also? He spoke to me for so much longer than I expected him to. Extremely generous with his time.

Roberta Lipp: So, you know, as a fan, I want you to not be nervous.

Jon Hamm: Okay.

RL: You know, we’re very big, but, you know, just relax and be yourself.

JH: Can do!

RL: So what are you up to? Where are you right now? Are you making a movie?

JH: Yeah, I’m up in Boston right now shooting a film Ben Affleck is directing called The Town, and we are in like the last few weeks of that.

RL: So you went straight from wrapping to Boston; right? Like, you’ve been just not stopping?

JH: Yeah, I think it was kind of an error in judgment, I think, on my part because I was pretty beat by the end of the season and then went right into this. It was a lot of work.

RL: Yeah, I can’t imagine. So you got a few more weeks on that and then you’re going to relax?

JH: Well, I’ve got, you know, Thanksgiving and a couple weeks off, and then I’m going to go into another film that shoots up in Vancouver called Sucker Punch. It’s being directed by a guy named Zack Snyder who directed Watchmen.

RL: That sounds very cool.

JH: Yeah, I think so. I think it will be a good one.

RL: Congratulations just on everything.

JH: Well thank you.

RL: So we’re all freaking out; this is the greatest season. The last two episodes [the Gypsy and the Hobo and the Grownups] were haunting and really –I can’t even pretend to know where this thing is going, I haven’t guessed for weeks, and each episode doesn’t help; you know? It’s just amazing.

JH: Well, you know what, if I could continue by saying,it was sort of the theme and the watchword for the season would be change. And almost all of our characters’ lives; in their professional lives and in their personal lives certainly, we see a lot of things shift.
And, obviously, that’s being paralleled in the world around them, and in the culture around them shifting as well. We’re starting to see the beginnings of that change happen in the 60s in American culture. And, obviously with the events of the last episode with Kennedy’s assassination happening, that’s a pretty big watershed moment for a lot of people, and I think in retrospect for the culture at large.

RL: Yeah. You know, separately from each of the individual storylines, what people have been saying on our site is, “Oh, that’s what it felt like.” He really captured it.”

JH: Well, you know, I think obviously the closest thing that a lot of people have in their lives now is when 9/11 happened, and just sort of that bizarre feeling of what is happening and what is this and what does it all mean and what is the next day going to bring. And I think that there was certainly a parallel with those two situations, but maybe doesn’t have — because we obviously know the benefit of living four years afterwards. And of course you know everything will be all right and people will wake up in the morning, but it’s fundamentally shifted. And we know as people that live in the 21st century that this is only the first and one of many sort of really horrible seismic events to happen in this culture at this time and in a relatively short span. And so, you know, I think obviously there is a parallel between our — it’s disconcerting because we’ve had several, I think, serendipitous parallels politically with our show when we started season one we started in 1960 with the very contended and contentious election between Nixon and Kennedy, and then we’re coming out of an election of Kerry-Bush or Bush-Gore, and there was that whole sort of feeling where fully half of the country was dissatisfied with the results of the election. And then the second season with the Kennedy’s sort of descendant, we had Obama come in, and now it’s strangely similar in certain aspects. So we’ve been really kind of fortunate in having a secondary resonance that has happened with our show and in the culture at large, and I think that that’s enabled people to kind of keep relating personally.

RL: Yeah, I agree. Definitely, definitely watching it reminded me of 9/11; just all sitting, just staring at the TV. Just staring at the TV, you know? And I loved all those different shots of all those different TV sets. Like you’re going to find –

JH: Because, you know, when we shoot those on the day we don’t have those video — we know what the people are saying, and we know what it looks like. And that really is strange to watch it back. It actually a couple days before I saw it; I don’t have AMC where I’m staying. And so it’s a strange, very strange watching people watch television that were on television. It’s a very strange thing.

RL: It was, everybody looking at the TVs for salvation, you know?

JH: For answers.

RL: Yeah, exactly.

JH: You want somebody “with Walter Cronkite dying earlier this year, you know, I wish I had — whether it was Walter Cronkite or David Brinkley or Chet Huntley or any of those people, they were sort of the voice of reason and they carried themselves thusly. And many, many people looked to them for sort of unvarnished truth. And what do we look for when we see, you know, various people trying to answer the question of what is going on?

RL: What is going on.

JH: And Don’s response, all he knew is it was going to be fine, it was going to be fine. He just keeps repeating that. And we’re actually convinced that at a certain level he has to believe that because of what he’s lived through. And his personal role being that in the face of all of this falling apart, he has to believe it’s going to be fine. And it turns out it’s probably not.

RL: Yeah, not so much, not in his life. What have you learned in your life that you wish Don had learned?

JH: You know, I think it’s a great tragedy of Don, and not just in his relationship with his wife and family, but his whole life and his whole existence has been as a man who has made choices in his life that are obviously wrong. And at the end of the day, he’s a pretty damaged individual.

Okay, I need to come clean here. I had some severe audio problems with my recording situation. I bottomed out, frankly. Because you know which interview you don’t want to screw up? The Jon Hamm penultimate season episode interview.

This next section was the worst–large chunks of dialogue are unrestorable. And it was one of my favorite parts of the interview. And no, I didn’t take notes. Why take notes when you’re recording?!

JH: People are raised to be honest. Don was not raised that way. Don has no tools to behave that way.

Jon spoke at length about the lack of honesty that is the core of Don Draper. This is clearly something that Jon draws on as essential to the role”that Don was raised with no examples of being a good and honest person, and he simply does not have these skills to draw on, and so of course he fails in relationship after relationship. We discussed how there was no cultural vocabulary at that time for him to acquire the skills to change his patterns.

Jon also said that even Pete Campbell and Roger Sterling, as unpleasant as many of their behaviors are, maintain a core honesty about who they are that Don is incapable of. On Roger: He’s a person that is living the life that he has made for himself.

I’m not gonna lie, I found this to be a fascinating insight, and I’m more than a little bummed that most of it was lost. System upgrade is already in motion, and we thank you for your patience.

I asked him about the women–how to us, the viewers, each lover is a little bit of a different scenario. Is that the case with Don? Does each cheat come with its own rationale, like an alcoholic saying no more liquor, but beer and wine is okay?

JH: When you look at Don’s life and you look at his upbringing, this is a man who has, as you say, no vocabulary or tools equipped to be satisfied, to be happy. This is a man who very much lives his life from day-to-day. And so when these opportunities are put in front of you to see something different or to live another life, this is a man who has lived many lives. It’s a little easier for Don to rationalize that or compartmentalize that then it is for most people who have had examples of a happy mother and a happy father living a happy husband and wife existence. And that’s what they can base their married lives or their coupledom on that. Don didn’t have that, so I think he’s still kind of reaching for this happiness that is undefined in his world. When he met Betty he thought that was it because she is perfect looking.

RL: An angel, yeah.

JH: And we see that when he’s in the flashback with Anna when he has to ask her for a divorce, This woman makes me so happy. I can’t believe that she chose me. I can’t believe that we’re going to do this. And then even then it’s founded on lies. So I guess to answer your question is he is working out what it is that he needs to be happy.

I think with Suzanne this season it was much more about feeling the need to be taken care of. I think with Midge it was much more of a — he was challenged by Midge, and sort of she didn’t buy his bullshit and was very kind of playful and challenging to him in a way that his wife wasn’t. And yet you realize that Midge really didn’t love him, so that was the end of that.

I think with Rachel, Don really felt that he was understood by her. The difficulties that Don had of living his life and his day-to-day were understood by Rachel, and that was tremendously exciting and attractive. But, again, he wasn’t willing or able to be emotionally honest with her.

RL: Right.

JH: Bobbie was a completely different situation in that Bobbie was the aggressor in the relationship. And while I think it was briefly exciting to Don, at the end of the day it was not what he wanted. And in fact that when she said that she had sort of heard of Don’s past exploits, that was something that completely turned off Don to Bobbie, and then he realized that he needed to be out of that as soon as possible.

RL: Well also he was busted. Suddenly all those compartments were not so compartmentalized.

JH: That is a terrifying thing to someone like Don who has a past that’s thrown in his face. He does not like that at all. And so that was, I think, pretty hard for Don to deal with. But I think with Suzanne, you know, with the exception of the stewardess this year, which was just sort of a whim–almost a reflective kind of situation that wasn’t even consummated, and Don was half-hearted at best with his pursuit there. The thing with Suzanne was very real. It was very much — I think very much came out of Don needing to be taken care of. And in many ways this season, Don is — and Roger even said that — Don is in over his head.

RL: Oh, yeah.

JH: And so many things are spinning out of control for Don at work and at home, and these compartments that he’s studiously built up are bleeding into one another and crashing. And the weight of his life is really finally leaning on him. And where most people would lean on their wife or their family or somewhere to find the strength to deal with that, Don can’t. And if Betty is unavailable for him, there is no interest in hearing his issues, not that he would share them with her anyway. And he’s got tremendous pressure at work to perform and to succeed and achieve, and I think he really sees in Suzanne someone who is nurturing and a caregiver in a way that his wife just isn’t. I really think that’s tremendously attractive to him. Unfortunately, it leads to the dissolution of his — the rest of his family life.

RL: We struggle with Suzanne. You know this, right?

JH: No, I know. I read a lot about it. People are sort of not on board with her. I guess I’m a little surprised at that in a lot of sense because I think it’s kind of right there. I guess I don’t know what people — it’s interesting, because I think as viewers we have the benefit of seeing all things, and the characters don’t have those benefits.

RL: Right.

JH: And so we’re able to — the viewers say, oh, she’s crazy, or she’s going to turn into Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction or whatever, and Don has none of that interpretation. He just sees a woman who he is sexually attracted to and emotionally attracted to. And, again, I think he thinks in some sort of weird way spiritually attracted to her in the sense that she’s in her sort of caregiver, and Don needs that at this time in his life. And, again, isn’t willing to go there with his wife and be vulnerable and ask for that from his wife because he just doesn’t have the ability to do it. Again, with this relative stranger he’s able to sort of pick up on that and see that that is something that she feels and is interested in. And, again, I think that’s their relationship.

RL: Yeah, I don’t know what’s — I mean, obviously I’ll know more next week, but I don’t know if Matt maybe got it wrong in some of what he — you know, if we’re getting a message that he doesn’t want us getting, which does occasionally happen, unless he’s completely playing us. Do you know what I mean? We don’t know; we don’t know yet. But I know every once in a while he’s said to us, or we’ve read, you know, well, this meant this, obviously, and we’re kind of like, yeah, nobody got that. So I don’t know if there’s a missing something or if I’ll be eating my words in a few days, I don’t know.

JH: Well, I’m not sure what you’re referencing, but it’s a television show and you’re welcome to see what you see in that stuff. The beauty of any art form is that you bring to it whatever you want to bring to it. Matt being the person that really has had a specific idea and that idea may not resonate. I think that that’s anything; that’s any film, that’s any novel, that’s any television show, that’s any piece of any painting, any sculpture, anything. You’re going to bring to it what you bring to it in your personal life, and your personal, you know, sort of mindset is going to inform how you think anything, I think. That’s the beauty of our show, and then we’re able to kind of resonate on a lot of levels with a lot of people. I don’t think there is any one way to get it right.

RL: It is a television show, I guess. She’s just really controversial, and it’s interesting because I haven’t seen that. It’s different than when people just didn’t like Bobbie, and that, I think, was just partly a lack of feminism and partly being protective of Don’s behavior. Somehow it was different for us, for viewers.

JH: I think people invested in these characters as well, obviously. When you see characters misbehave, I think a perfect example of that is Don and Betty, with the events of the last couple episodes, people are very invested. They want these two crazy kids to work it out. And I think the sad answer is likely these two crazy kids aren’t in love and maybe they never have been. Because, again, they don’t have the maturity emotionally, they don’t have the honesty emotionally, they don’t have the vulnerability, either one of them.

RL: Yeah, they don’t have the skill set.

JH: They don’t have the tools, they don’t have the foundation; there’s no there there. And I think as these two characters grow older and aren’t willing to make the sacrifices needed to develop that, you know, they just end up growing further and further apart. As much as we as an audience, now having invested over, you know, two-and-a-half seasons of trying watching them and seeing them make these decisions, you can want it to happen as much as you want, as much as you can try to will it to happen, but if it’s not there, it’s not there. And that, I think, is where a lot of the sadness has come from the last few episodes. When Betty says to Don, “I don’t love you anymore,” I just, “I don’t love you anymore,” I mean, that’s a devastating for somebody to say to somebody.

RL: That’s big.

JH: But it’s true. And whether or not she loves Henry or whether or not she loves her children or any of that, that’s not entering into the equation at that point. It’s that she does not love Don anymore. And, obviously, his biggest fear was that he was going to open up to her at some point in his life and she would reject him, and that’s exactly what happened.

RL: Yeah. Oh, it was heartbreaking. And, you know, one friend of mine said, you know, “I didn’t see it coming. Where did that come from?”

JH: Yeah, what show are you watching?

RL: I mean, and especially even just in this single episode, I mean, every time he offered her comfort she almost cringed, you know?

JH: Well, I think there’s — I’ve read quite a few things about the show as well, and I think, you know, where maybe you see Don offering her comfort, or I see Don offering her comfort by saying, “Look, everything is going to be okay. Why don’t you go upstairs and take a pill, relax. You know, it’s all going to be fine. It’s all going to be fine,” other people just see him as just completely not hearing her and shutting her down, and telling her basically to go fuck off. And it’s, you know, again, this is a person that he’s not going to, as we’ve seen Don, like, he doesn’t have the ability to sit her down and say, like, “Let’s talk about your feelings.” That’s not in his game plan. His game plan is I’ll be the strong father figure, I will take care of it, it will go away; everything will be fine tomorrow. That’s his way of dealing with things, and that’s not working for her. It’s not. And, you know, that’s all he’s got to offer, and it’s sad.

RL: I don’t know that the other would work either at this stage of their marriage–tell me your feelings?

JH: Of course not. Betty is inconsolable because she has realized fundamentally that she does not love this person.

RL: That’s big. What, and there were many, and maybe that was the one, what was the most shocking thing, you know, you open a script, what was the most shocking thing for you for Don this season?

JH: Probably last episode when he comes into the house to get a bag to pack, he’s going away with Suzanne, and Betty’s there with the kids. I think that was pretty shocking because that was the beginning of the end right there.

RL: It really was. Somewhere I read in like one of the Halloween articles, and by the way, in all your dreams of whatever version of success there might be, did you ever imagine that you would be a Halloween costume– not as a superhero?

JH: You know, it’s funny, Matt a long, long time ago, I think probably when we were shooting the pilot said, “It’s my dream that at this point a few years from now people will be dressing up as you for Halloween.”

RL: Wow!

JH: So Matt very much was attuned to that particular cultural vibe that we give.

RL: That’s crazy! That’s awesome! My dream is always that there be drag Roberta impersonators. I’m not there yet, but we’ll see.

JH: (Laughs).

RL: That’s amazing that he called it. But I read in one of them, you know, if you just want to add that special touch, drive around the neighborhood in a Cadillac with a brunette underneath front seat.

JH: (Laughs).

Two other things that got lost with the audio problems.

One is, we discussed Peggy, and he spoke about Don’s ultimate care for her, that he practices tough love but he is very fond of her

The other was that I asked him about Don vs Dick. There is a lot of talk among the Basketcases about it’s Dick who met Connie but Don who disappointed him, Don was really Dick with Anna Draper, it is Dick Whitman who walks into Suzanne’s apartment. And Jon says that no, for him they are not two separate people and he does not play it that way. That he is one multifaceted man, but there is no clear division for him.

RL: So your acting, I mean, did you ever — have you ever had the opportunity for paid gigs to act this deeply, to go to these places? I mean have you ever been able to do this much in terms of the depth of this character?

JH: I mean, obviously this is the — and you can certainly look at my IMDB page — but this is the best job I’ve ever had. This is the most well-written, most interesting work that I’ve done in television or film. And it’s, you know, it’s an honor. It’s an honor to get to work on this thing, and I am tremendously proud of it. And I’m happy to do it. I’m happy that it’s a challenge. I’m happy that it’s not this one note sort of travelogue through the 60s. I’m happy that we’re dealing with real emotions and real people. I think that another part of why people are so kind of either dissatisfied or devastated with this, you know, I think that some people thought this show was going to be about a bunch of sexualized sexy dudes kind of cruising Manhattan and banging broads, and it was going to be this sort of version of the Rat Pack. That’s not the story we’re trying to tell. We’re telling a very specific story about a very specific person and the lives that he interacts with. It’s not a travelogue of the 60s. It’s not an omnibus exploration of all things in the 60s. I read this article about the guy who — that the guy wrote from The Atlantic and sort of took him to task for not having more black people on the show, and where are their voice us, and I think he kind of fundamentally missed the point of the show, which is not — it’s not American Dreams. You know, we’re not telling this sort of “

RL: We’re not doing one of everything.

JH: Yeah. The reason there aren’t that many black people on the show or they are marginalized is because in this world they were. And it’s sad and it’s not right, and it’s certainly about to change, but it’s very accurate. And I think that, you know, whether it’s Hollis in the elevator or Carla in the Draper house, they are marginalized because they are marginalized in the society. Obviously things are changing and things are starting to happen, but these people are, that we’re looking at, aren’t necessarily at the forefront of those movements, you know? They are happening very much around them, and whether or not they notice or whether or not they take it in is part of what makes our show, I think, interesting. And not just sort of the Ken Burns of the 60s. Like, now let’s go look and see what’s happening with the civil rights. That would be completely false in our narrative. And it would be shoehorned in, and I think Matt is not interested in doing that, and I applaud him for that because I think it’s a far more interesting story to tell, one story, of these people’s lives rather than a sort of catch-all omnibus approach.

RL: Mad Men, Matt has a lot more patience than most viewers. And, you know “

JH: That’s true.

RL: And I’ve latched onto that specifically. I mean, even in this last episode, you know, you come back from the commercial and people are still sitting there watching TV. He didn’t just say, okay, we did the assassination. Next? It was slow and, I mean, I’ve said this a lot of times, I’ve written about this a lot of times, Marriage of Figaro was my first real convert where I was sure, and it was because of that birthday party that never fucking ended, you know?

JH: Yeah.

RL: I mean, you’re watching this thing and you’re going, okay, next scene, back to the office”No. It was so painful, it was so excruciating. And that’s the patience, you know, it has a patience and it’s not forced. My mom is the same age as the Drapers, and she’s like, “I don’t know that world.” She was a Brooklyn Jew, and everybody she knew was from that world, and she doesn’t relate. Again, that’s not this story.

JH: Right. I mean, I certainly don’t know that world either. Neither does Matt, it’s a different time. But again, it’s not required to have lived through any of this to be affected by it. I think that, again, alienation or dissatisfaction or wondering where your place is in the world or in your job or anything, these aren’t exactly things that are specific to the 1960s. It’s just that we have such a kind of nostalgic gloss over those times that revisiting them and layering all these things on top of them, I think, is really what makes it emotionally relevant. And so that’s, again, that’s the story we’re trying to tell is how are these people dealing with what we know is going to be very seismic cultural shifts. They don’t know that. They think it’s going to be a Tuesday. You know, everyone woke up on Friday thinking it was going to be a Friday. They didn’t think it was going to be The Day That America Lost Its Innocence. And so they had to deal with it the only way they could. And then I think it gets back to that thing with Don. It’s just like, it’s going to be okay, it’s going to be okay, it’s going to be okay. How do you know, how do you know, how do you know? Because it is. And, you know, it’s interesting, again, to get back to people sort of shitting on Don for not taking Betty’s needs or not taking Betty’s emotions, or telling her to go lie down, or telling her it’s going to be okay” Henry says the exact same thing to her. But she believes him, for whatever reason, because she wants to believe him. She wants that knight in shining armor to be the right knight in shining armor. And it’s an interesting juxtaposition.

RL: It’s easy to be the knight in shining armor when there’s no baggage, when there’s no history of bitchiness.

JH: Of course.

RL: Something you said made me think of something, but I already lost it. God, what a great scene that was when Paul lost the idea and you guys were just were all, like, Yeah, hate when that happens.

JH: Yeah, that’s the thing. You know, it’s a setup of Don always kind of being the heavy and always kind of crushing Paul or crushing Peggy when they don’t meet his expectations. But I think that anybody that’s ever worked in a creative capacity knows the heartbreak of having an idea and how quickly those things can disappear, and how big of a disappointment it is when they do.

RL: It’s awful.

JH: It was a nice moment for Don to say that.

RL: “I hate when that happens.” Yeah, it was great, it was great. I’ve lost songs I’ve written. And I remember what I was going to say, it was just off what you’d been saying. It’s just, you know, we forget, again, because we’re not patient, but after Friday was Saturday, you know? The 60s didn’t happen– we didn’t wake up the next day and it was hippies and acid, you know?

JH: Right.

RL: It was — and that’s what we’re watching. That’s what is so fascinating, because in addition to these individual stories. And that was definitely one of the first things that got me, too, was like, oh, this isn’t about a pretty blonde in the suburbs, this is about an odd woman, you know, or with any of the characters.

JH: Right, a woman that presents one thing and really is something else, or a man. You know, and, again, I think that’s what the big setup of the show is. Like, here are these two people that came off the top of a wedding cake. Aren’t they happy? They have the greatest life, they have the best things, they have the best of everything. And yet scratch the surface and it’s not the case. I think not particularly unlike the film version of Revolutionary Road, but I think it’s a similar take of like look at how beautiful everything is and I am utterly dissatisfied.

RL: Why do you think that Don is so angry at Roger? I mean, why do you think?

JH: I think what Don –I think that part of Don’s professional life is wanting to be in control. I think we see that in Seven Twenty Three when he does not want to sign a contract. He’s essentially forced to do it. And the reason he’s forced to do it is because they don’t own the company anymore. Don’s situation, as we saw at the end of Season 2, is that he has personal relationships with the people he works with, but that is his sort of the core of his realm, and he has done very well by that. So when he stands up in the PPL meeting and says, “I don’t have a contract,” and they look over at Roger and he says, “We’re friends. We didn’t think we needed one,” which is another amazing John Slattery line. When that is taken away from him, and part of why it’s taken away is because Roger in choosing to marry Jane and divorce Mona needs money, and part of needing money is selling his company, selling his birthrights, selling all this, and ostensibly selling a lot of Don’s freedom without consulting him. Now, the reason he didn’t consult him was because he was off the grid in California, but that’s neither her nor there. So that was the first kind of domino falling.

RL: Right.

JH: And I think he sees Roger as sort of being frivolous in his care of this thing that he feels that he has helped to build as well.

RL: Interesting.

JH: More than just for the pursuit of money. And I think he sees Roger as being kind of checked out of the whole thing. And a lot of the responsibility and a lot of the stuff that’s falling back on Don’s shoulders once he’s forced to sign a contract and be beholden to these people that he does not get along with, doesn’t like, the PPL folks, he looks at that as a further thing to blame on Roger. And I think that’s the heart of it. You know, they are friends. They are friends, and Roger is responsible for bringing Don into this world, but I feel like he’s looking at Roger as a guy who’s kind of being frivolous with all of this power in many ways. And I think that’s what the majority of the conflict has been this season. Now whether or not they get to a place where they’re able to “

RL: Hug it out?

JH: — work it out. Hug it out, yeah. (Laughs) Whoopee. When they’re sitting there getting their shaves, “That’s what I did to you? I made you a half a million dollars. Gee, I’m really sorry.” You know, it’s much less about money for Don as it is about control.

RL: That is a great fucking answer. With all our writing, I don’t think we knew all that. That’s awesome. That’s great. So, do you trust Don?

JH: I’m not sure exactly what that means. I think that Don is trustworthy to some extent. I think that he — I think it’s about what he’s given, as far as like Don trusted Connie. I think Connie trusted Don to a pretty significant degree, and yet what Don comes to realize about Connie is that Connie is crazy, and so he wasn’t so much interested in a relationship of equals, as opposed to someone that would just do his bidding; and that was a miscalculation on Don’s part. And, you know, I think that that, again, shows Don not being in a degree of control that he was in Seasons 1 and 2. This is a man who is, as Roger said, in way over his head. And because of that, he’s making decisions that aren’t sound that aren’t always the smartest, and I think that that’s been a big problem with Don. Do I trust him? Yeah. I mean, I think he’s trustworthy, but I’m a little closer to him than most.

RL: Right. And Connie really hurt him. I mean, as anybody who’s been hurt by somebody crazy knows, just because you realize they’re crazy doesn’t help you from being hurt.

JH: And it embarrassed him, I think, which was a big thing. I think Don is so used and we are so used to, the audience, seeing Don go into these things and “

RL: And kick ass.

JH: And honestly, that was a great campaign. The character said it several times, “This is a great campaign.” And Connie is not interested in a great campaign; he’s interested in somebody that’s going to parrot his idea back to him. And I think that was a miscalculation on Don’s part. And, again, Roger comes in and says, “We’ve had two important clients leave angry. Is that what you want this place known for?” We’ll see how it all shakes down. I mean, I think that we’re going to be interested in how it shakes down.

Yeah now he’s just messing with me.

RL: Yeah, I’m sure everybody will. We’re dying over here. One more week it’s hard to know where to go now with you.

How was Oprah? How was that experience? fucking Oprah!

JH: It was very brief. We were in the middle of production, so January and I had to fly out, oh, God, it was like a red-eye to Chicago, landed at 5:30 or so. She flew out a little before I did because she didn’t have to work the day before. But I flew out on the red-eye, got there at like six o’clock in the morning and then had to be at the studio at 9:30, and then left at Chicago at 1:30. So I was probably in Chicago five-and-a-half hours, and I was probably in the air about eight or nine, so it was very brief. But it was a very strange — a strange interlude, to say the least. It felt sort of dreamlike in its brevity.

RL: It was, you know, for the hardcore fans, it was, like, okay, really? I mean, for the hardcore Mad Men fans as opposed to the hardcore Oprah fans, which I guess there are a lot, it was, like, you know, it was the hard questions like what kind of cigarettes do you smoke.

JH: Yeah. I mean, the more interesting part of it, actually, was when Gayle came to the set. It gave me a little more time to kind of hang out with her and sort
of — she was very interested in seeing the staff. I mean, I know you guys came to the set as well, and it’s a pretty cool thing to do to come and see it, especially if you’re fan of the show.

RL: It is.

JH: I’ve had quite a few friends come by and see the set and they’re all kind of blown away.

RL: Yeah, we definitely got to play around in the office a lot and poke around, and that was so cool. And Oprah aired after we had been there, so it
was — and even seeing, you know, like Rich’s video that he did, which was so hilarious, the Funny or Die; .same thing. It was like, We were there! You know, and it definitely looks different now. And I agree, Gayle did have the best part. I’d forgotten about that.

JH: Yeah, it’s cool. It was cool, it was very cool, it was just brief. It was just very brief.

Honestly, I have no graceful transition into this. I’m just flat out asking why they love us

JH: You know, it’s interesting, and we talked about this briefly when you visited, but I’ve been reading your site since its sort of foundation back when it was on [at the old WordPress url], and it’s really amazing that it is sort of the depth that you guys go to and the care that you guys take. It’s nice. I met one of your writers earlier this year“

RL: Robin. She goes by hullaballoo on here.

JH: Yeah, and it was so nice. It’s just nice to see that when you work on something, and me, in particular, once we start working in the summertime, it’s pretty much an every day all day thing for me, and it’s very long hours. And you’re making these things, and it’s very piecemeal and they don’t care until months afterwards. And so you kind of feel like you’re shouting into a canyon at a certain point. But when you see people kind of take the time to look at them and analyze them and really get it, that feels like, okay, well, at least I’m not making this up. You know, I’m not just doing this for myself; there are people out there that are understanding. And especially on a show that is as dense as our show is, it’s kind of sometimes difficult to dissect. It’s nice that you’ve created this spot where people can go that’s, first of all, sort of friendly, and it doesn’t ever really devolve into name calling or “You’re wrong,” or “You’re an idiot,” or, you know, that stuff. It’s just this sort of nice forum where people can discuss something that they really enjoy. And it’s nice for us, too. I know I’m not the only person on the cast or on the staff that pays attention to it, because it’s a nice thing to say. It’s a nice thing when you’re able to work on something that you’re proud of, and then you can look at people discussing it. It’s a nice thing to have. So thank you to you and your sister and all of your commenters and writers that put the time in to do that, because it really does mean a lot to us.

RL: It’s our pleasure, obviously. And, you know, we’re thrilled that you guys like it and that it reaches you as well. Certainly that was never our intention, you know. It was just — we were just like, all right, let’s talk about TV and write it down, you know? And then it started to become a place for other viewers. I know that if I didn’t have this thing I would be visiting it.

JH: Yeah.

RL: It was nice to provide that. But then to start to get the feedback that Matt and that some people were into it too, it’s nice, it’s nice. We think we get it, so to get the feedback that, yeah, we get it, is rewarding. So thank you, and really, really, really thank you from all of us for taking the time to do this. And you were so ridiculously nice when we met you. Like, it was very — you’re as nice as they say. You’re all real and shit.

JH: (Laughs). Well, it’s my pleasure. It’s my pleasure to talk to you guys. I’m sorry it’s taken this long to do so. I wish I could’ve gotten in a little earlier, but I’m kind of glad it happened at this point in the season because it’s, with one to go, it’s — I think there’s still quite a few things that you guys will be surprised at. You hopefully will enjoy it.

RL: We don’t do guessing anymore. We gave up .We gave up a long time ago. People can guess all they want. I don’t — I have no — I’m done. I have no freaking idea where it’s all going. I just know that at the end of every episode, and many times during it, I’m like, “Holy crap!” You just don’t know, so, yeah. Yep, I’m poised, I’m ready, and, you know, we’ll see it on the other side.

JH: All right. I’m sorry I can’t make it to your party this weekend. I will be indisposed in Vancouver to do some work up there with another film that I’m doing, but I hope you guys have a blast and party and that you enjoy the finale.

RL: I think all of that will be the case.