Excellent point. Ken, with his published short story and positive attitude has always been envied by Pete.
S-C is one of those rare offices where the staff gathers together to console one another during time of crisis, and to play together during time of celebration. Ken's the kind of guy you'd like to work with.
But what does "warming up secretaries" have to do with the Accounts job?
*Roger Sterling is grinning fiendishly in my head*
I think the obvious difference, that Lane stated, is that Pete is noticably needy while Kenny makes everything feel breezy and effortless. And from what we have seen Accounts is a "people pleasing" job. Ken is obviously better with people than Pete is. But then, who isn't?
I agree with Pete that their performance in the test has been equal. I actually thought Pete did better than Ken in this respect. Ken messed up the patio deal and was partly responsible for the lawnmower accident. Pete only messed up with the Admiral account because the clients were too racist to take good business advice. But Roger was right when he said "Half the time this business comes down to I don't like that guy !"
I think it all goes back to the "I have ideas!" speech. Pete does have good ideas. Better ideas than Ken. Maybe better ideas than anyone in Sterling Cooper. But his bosses put him in Accounts because – "You people tell me that I'm good with people. Which is strange because I never heard that before." They put Pete in the wrong field and used him as a blue-blood mascote for the company. He needs to reinvent himself.
Didn't Don actually tell Pete at one point that he won't go very far because no will like him? I think this was awhile back, so I'm a little fuzzy on this.
DON
Advertising is a very small world.
And when you do something like
malign the reputation of some girl
from the steno pool on her first
day, you make it even smaller.
Keep it up and even if you do get
my job, you'll never run this
place. You'll die in that corner
office: a mid-level account
executive with a little bit of
hair, who women go home with out of
pity.
They've arrived at the big board room. Don stops and
whispers.
DON (CONT'D)
And you know why? Because no one
will like you.
Pete is speechless. Don
It would be nice if the writers developed Ken more. Have I missed something? Do we know anything more about him other than he is a short story writer who grew up in Vermont and made his own ice cream as a child? We know Paul went to Princeton. Where did Ken go to college?
I know, it was just the phrasing – it made it sound like the key to Ken's success was getting the ladies hot. But if Ken and Roger are anything to go by being a good cad is also a quality they like in Accounts, since that job seems to involve a lot of pimping and hand jobs.
I do identify with Pete's frustration though. In his work Pete isn't bad with people on purpose and often he can't even figure out what he is doing wrong. I think Pete does have more talent than Ken when it comes to Advertising, but Ken is naturally charming and helpful.
falafel, I didn't even notice the getting the ladies hot thing.
But what's significant to me is that secretaries are working class; "the common people." Pete is a blue blood who couldn't give a shit about secretaries. Ken's common touch is part of what got him promoted.
I work in sales/account management and within the first 10 minutes of this episode, MW had me thinking of todays office politics. The fact that Ken gets the promotion even though Pete works harder and has the ideas ahead of their time is so spot on, then as it is today.
And that's not to discount Ken. I think he's got the smarts, and obviously some creativity, with his fiction being published and all. But he also has that "it" factor that makes everyone comfortable, women and men. Quite the opposite of our somewhat twitchy Pete, who often comes across as trying to hard to fit in.
I see it all the time at work. The person that can crack the appropriate joke, appear to have life by the tail (effortlessly,) and leave most people feeling somewhat lighter or happier upon their exit, are the ones who get the rewards. Work commitment be damned, it's like Don said "…It's about the way you make them feel." And Ken makes the clients who are buying the SC product feel carefree.
In "New Amsterdam", Pete's job was saved for the wrong reason. He has several strike-out on his record. Some are public, such as the New Amsterdam fiasco plus the blackmail attempt on Season 1. Some are not, like his paternity and the Gudrun story.
Even then, the scripts go the extra mile in order to make him a 3D character who may hit the right note here or there.
His "ideas" would be better used by some non-glamour industry like insurance or food processing. And he needs some life-changing experiences that shake him off his sense of entitlement.
(The last sentence can also be about myself, or a lot of people raised in an atmosphere where such sense of entitlement is programmed into you. My wife was raised in the USSR, and believe me the differences in upbringing get very interesting sometimes)
@ 1 pattishea- "Mad Men" is a lot darker than the typical workplace show, but habving characters console each other and party together is quite common for the genre.
I want to see more of Ken's backstory. We're pretty sure there isn't a deep dark secret. However, it would be interesting to see how he turned out the way he did. I really want to see his apartment. I have a feeling it's the stereotypical bachelor apartment, but slightly neater. He doesn't want the ladies to think he's a slob.
Pete has always struck me as a mediocrity who perfectly personifies the "Peter Principle" (how's that for alliteration). He may have some great ideas, but only seems to be able to take them so far.
I know from my Patsy post that many associate Pete with Kennedy, but I see more of the Kennedy charisma in Ken. Ken, btw, is the one who first rides the infamous lawn mower from Guy Walks….
I wonder if we'll be seeing more of Ken next season — now that he's gotten the promotion maybe this makes him a more important character? But still, I think the point of Ken is that he is the "what you see is what you get" All-American golden boy type of a character. It makes a great contrast to darker characters like Pete. So, I say no backstory is necessary. I would like to see him in more office scenes though. And who knows on this show, maybe there are some glitches ahead in this charmed life he leads.
BTW, does anyone else think they wanted Ken for the job all along? In Guy's meeting he introduced Accounts as "Mr Cosgrove and Mr Campbell, for the present". It seems like the Brits knew that Pete's promotion was only temporary. Maybe they just used Pete to fire up Ken's ambition. They didn't need 6 months to work out that Ken had better people skills than Pete. You could work that out in 2 minutes.
I'm looking forward to the Darwin test backfiring if Pete sucessfully takes half of Sterling Cooper's clients away with him.
I think Ken’s victory also reflects Lane’s recent embrace of the American way of doing business. He’s attracted to Ken’s sunny disposition and easygoing confidence, which seems singularly American to him. In contrast, Pete’s awkwardness and rigid sense of social rank remind Lane of his British compatriots, who, for good reason, he’s eager to reject.
I know from my Patsy post that many associate Pete with Kennedy, but I see more of the Kennedy charisma in Ken. Ken, btw, is the one who first rides the infamous lawn mower from Guy Walks….
Just what I was about to say! If Pete is the resentful Oswald (as posited by Matt Maul on the Patsy thread), then Ken ("Kenny and his haircut"), with his charm that wins everyone over, would have to be Kennedy. Not that Pete is planning to take out his rifle and scope it on Ken, just that that's what's being mirrored.
#14 Matt Maul:
"I know from my Patsy post that many associate Pete with Kennedy, but I see more of the Kennedy charisma in Ken. Ken, btw, is the one who first rides the infamous lawn mower from Guy Walks…"
I very much agree… and when I was watching the scene after Pete gets the bad news from Lane, where he is glowering at Ken (who is on the floor fixing the heater) and the somewhat creepy music is playing in the background, I immediately thought the he could be the Oswald to Ken's Kennedy. Of course this was me being a bit "overwrought" after seeing that rifle in Pete's office in the opening scene, and that guy with the hunter's cap walking behind Pete, and just knowing that this would be THE episode…well it all seemed a bit ominous at that moment!
#8 – Ken is a Columbia graduate. I think he's mentioned it a few times (?). But it is first mentioned when they flash across his Atlantic Monthly short story and biographical blurb in "5G." It also says he's lived in the New York area for most of his life. However, he's mentioned several times that he's from/lived in Vermont (like when Sal and Peggy are discussing ideas for Popsicle and he talks about making ice cream).
Alma Maters we know of: Ken – Columbia; Pete – Dartmouth; Paul – Princeton; Harry – U Wisconsin; Smitty – U Michigan; Peggy – Miss Deaver's Secretarial School.
Also, have we ever seen Ken's office? We've been everyone else's but I don't remember the show ever taking us into Ken's.
Pete is a blue blood who couldn’t give a shit about secretaries. Ken’s common touch is part of what got him promoted.
But the clients are NOT working class girls. They are mostly rich privileged white men who are impressed by Pete's ancestry. That is the whole reason Bert put Pete in the Accounts job and didn't let Don fire him. Because his family name was valued by rich clients. I don't think Ken's common touch is a factor in getting the job. It's his people skills. Sterling Cooper always valued Pete's blue blood as his only real asset.
# 19 falafel Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
BTW, does anyone else think they wanted Ken for the job all along? In Guy’s meeting he introduced Accounts as “Mr Cosgrove and Mr Campbell, for the presentâ€. It seems like the Brits knew that Pete’s promotion was only temporary. Maybe they just used Pete to fire up Ken’s ambition. They didn’t need 6 months to work out that Ken had better people skills than Pete. You could work that out in 2 minutes.
I was really trying to figure that out…were they just keeping Pete around for his blue-blood connections? But I haven't really seen that come into play lately. And if the Brits want to sell SC anyway, why make this kind of decison now? Or maybe this does have something to do with a possible sale of the company?
Betty- Bryn Mawr. Don- Night School of Hard Knocks.
falafel: I think a good manager/ boss (which I mostly think Lane is) would also take into consideration how well Ken interacts with the rest of the SC staff. For a senior level position with presumably a lot of direct reports and subordinates, you also have to consider whether his underlings will love him or hate him. We know Pete can't be a lot of fun to work for. Ken's probably great to work for.
Regarding the sale- maybe it's too messy to a prospective buyer to have this ambiguous senior management situation, so they felt they needed to resolve it. I've seen that happen.
And yet they won't spring for a good art director for Don. Penny pinching.
Or maybe this does have something to do with a possible sale of the company?
I wonder if Lane is scheming. We know he doesn't want to sell up and leave. Maybe Lane is counting on Pete pulling out and taking his clients, meaning that Sterling Cooper's price tag will drop.
I still think fans are looking at the Kennedy symbolism in a superficial way. Ken is charming so he must be Kennedy and Pete is creepy so he must be Oswald? Pete supports the ideas and changes Kennedy wanted to bring about. Pete was pushing for black demographic marketting; the advertising equivilant of Kennedy pushing for civil rights. And Matt Weiner has been saying that Pete is the shows symbolic Kennedy since S1.
"I wonder if Lane is scheming. We know he doesn’t want to sell up and leave. Maybe Lane is counting on Pete pulling out and taking his clients, meaning that Sterling Cooper’s price tag will drop."
falafel,
If Lane is Colonel Nicholson from Bridge on the River Kwai this is exactly what he has in mind.
I don't care how smart or how good you are with your job duties, if people dislike you, you will wither on the vine. And it usually starts within the office. Do you work well with others? Are you a team player? The inner office staff talks, and if the answer to these questions are 'no,' management always gets wind of it. It makes for an unsettling work environment and you then become part of the problem. I guarantee the attitude Pete has to those "beneath" him carries over to wait staff, coat checks, and the like and that is noticed by clients. Think of how nasty Pete is with his secretary…In fact, his small apology to her after the whiny cocoa comment, is the only time I've seen treat her respectfully. Hopefully, that retraction, along with his more modern dress, is the Pete of the future. For his own sake.
#8 – Thanks Empress Rouge. I now remember Ken referencing Columbia. But, how did I miss Pete went to Dartmouth? Good. Interesting. I'd like to know where Jane Segal Sterling went. I remember Joan saying she was a "college girl" unlike the other secretaries-but no more.
I felt pretty bad for old Pete despite his stinker moments but it is always good to have a character who you sometimes like and sometimes don't. He'll be alright though. I've noticed a lot of people saying Pete was "childish" in his reaction but I can't think of too many people who'd be looking too thrilled after getting a promotion yanked out from under them and actually being demoted. Some folks can smile and pretend but anyone would be disappointed. I loved his "mod" turtleneck. As soon as I saw it, I thought of the Beatles first American album as others have mentioned (it was the only Beatles record myMom had in our house when I was a kid and it always fascinated me and then when I was a teen I got all of their Brit albums). I also yelled out "Look at Pete, looking all mod"
I hope Ken's backstory is not missing for a "reason", but all we know about him is what we see and hear. Open and honest, he admitted his blame in the lawn mower incident – and was the only person in the whole office that got down on the floor with Joan and tried to help. (Maybe the Brits noticed that and it helped him nail down the job.)
#32 – I wouldn't describe Kennedy as "pushing" for civil rights, just like I wouldn't call Pete progressive. Kennedy supported civil rights, mostly during his campaign. He proposed the Civil Rights act but it never got it passed in Congress. It was Johnson, a Southern Democrat, who pushed it through.
However, I see more of Pete-Kennedy connection in this. Pete's not THAT progressive (although he was disgusted by Roger's blackface). He only brought up "the negro market" and talked to Hollis because he needed to pitch something to Admiral. Also, Trudy is Pete's Jackie. She definitely supports/makes him look good. Pete is SC's Kennedy, except Ken ended up w/ all of Kennedy's charisma.
#35 – We don't know where Jane or Joan went to college (S1 roommate Carol was Joan's college friend). In Jane's case, I think it might have been a technical or secretarial school, something 2-year since she, like Peggy, started working at age 20.
"Let me t-t-tell you 'bout some co-workers I know
They're kinda crazy but you'll dig the show
They can party 'till the break of dawn
at Sterling Cooper you can't go wrong
Kenny's he's the ladies man, every girl falls into hands
Peggy and Smitty playing cat and mouse
and Ms. Hallolway, she's the queen of the
advertising house, advertising house, advertising house,
advertising house, advertising house, advertising house "
Pete is SC’s Kennedy, except Ken ended up w/ all of Kennedy’s charisma.
Pete's unpopularity doesn't really negate the Kennedy parrellel. The good people of Sterling Cooper don't like Pete, but they never liked Kennedy either. They were all Nixon voters. They are shocked over the human tragedy, but they don't have any political sympathies like Pete does.
I do agree that Pete/Trudy are shaping up to be a great team. I actually think this episode showed that Pete can make Trudy a better person too. Trudy is certainly teaching Pete better manners than his cold contemptuous parents ever did. But Trudy has always been a conformist. Pete is teaching Trudy to question authority like she has never done before. This is their process of 'growing up', through maturity but also disillusionment.
@ falafel – apparently, we're in a minority re: Pete but I think we'll end up being correct I too don't understand how creepy = Oswald. I'm going to paste a few of my comments from the "Patsy" post (since they're relevant in this discussion as well) and add some stuff to what I originally said there.
Haven’t any of you been in a situation where you’re passed over for a promotion (or something analogous) after working extremely hard (and whatever other criticisms of Pete, I’m confident that he does work harder than Ken based on the few snippets we’ve seen of them in earlier episodes) and been upset? It’s especially hard to lose out to somebody who seems to have a charmed existence, like Ken. I can see why Ken might be a good choice from a personality perspective, but let’s face it, the show copped out after the exciting introduction of this competition subplot in episode 1. We barely saw them doing any accounts stuff and from my perspective, they were about even (as Pete noted). The subplot could have been an opportunity to tell us more about Ken (rather than him always serving as a foil for Sal or Pete) and his motivations. That said, I highly doubt we will ever get more insight into Ken. The whole point with Pete vs. Ken is that one guy (Pete) really really wants his job AND has foresight into where advertising needs/is going to go – we've never gotten the sense that Ken would care one way or the other about his position nor that he actually cares that much about advertising period.
Pete actually really impressed me in this episode, and it’s interesting that a lot of people seem to think his comments re: his colleagues’ reactions to Kennedy’s death were hyperbole just to make Trudy sympathize with him (or that they're both just immature). A lot of people WERE happy that Kennedy was killed – he was both loved and reviled. And in fact, Harry’s wife (Jennifer) makes a couple of comments at the wedding reception to Don & Betty that suggest that both she and Harry think Kennedy may have been “asking for this.†So honestly, Pete’s remembrance of what happened at the office is probably accurate – people may have been initially shocked, but not everyone would have been sad about it. This was an office that went for Nixon, remember that. Also, Pete handled his demotion fairly well (I really thought he was gonna dump coffee on Ken) – he’s allowed to whine to his wife, at least they’re having honest conversations (which is more than I can normally say for Don & Betty). To me, Pete’s whole reaction to the assassination cemented the fact that he’s Sterling Cooper’s Kennedy to Don’s Nixon (the theme started in season 1 during the election campaign). Is Pete a classic good guy? No, obviously not. But I think that a lot of posters don't give him credit for the fact that he IS ahead of the curve (one of his similarities with Peggy IMO). We can fawn over Ken's relaxed nature all we want but at the end of the day, we don't know a lot about him (for example, that secretary whose space heater he was fixing was also the one who's frequently shown sitting on his lap, no? Would he do the same thing for the less attractive women in the phone room?) and I see no evidence that he outshone Pete from a pure accounts perspective.
As a Columbia alum, I'm glad to see a fellow Lion succeed in life. God knows our football team isn't going to make us famous.
Why did Ken get promoted? Here's one thought. Promotions are now being handled by the Brits. Lane has dropped many hints that he did not go to an Oxbridge school. The first thing Pete did was throw his old money credentials at him (which real blue bloods do not do. It's too showy).
Ken, with his down to earth manner, is much more English and self-effacing than Pete. He also had a story published, which would most likely impress the Brits, since an appreciation of literature is present at all levels of society. Finally, what Lane said (paraphrasing) — that Pete takes care of clients' needs, but Ken's clients don't have any, is another factor. The English find fussing to be unhelpful.
Oh, pleeze. Ken got the job because he's never had a bad day in his life. Pete didn't get it because he is a bit of a dweeb.
Lane didn't say that exactly but that's what everyone was thinking.
The Pete = Kennedy observations are very well taken, and I agree that it has been a theme since Season 1's Nixon vs Kennedy. It's just that for the purpose of thinking about Pete and Ken, the Oswald/Kennedy analogy works well, too. People who didn't like Kennedy thought of him in very much the way that Ken can be viewed: superficial, skating through on looks ("Kenny and his haircut" as Pete describes him sourly) and charm.
In very much the same way, Don can be metaphorized (is that a word?) as Nixon (as he was in Nixon vs Kennedy, the dirt-poor child raising himself up through his own efforts vs silver-spoon Pete/Kennedy), Kennedy (the handsome golden-boy womanizer with the perfect-seeming wife and two children), or even Oswald (as was pointed out, he is dressed exactly like Oswald at the moment that Betty shoots down their marriage).
@ falafel – apparently, we’re in a minority re: Pete but I think we’ll end up being correct.
Keep the faith! Pete is the dark horse of this show. We know that history has great things in store for Pete and his black turtleneck. I'm hoping that 1964 will be Pete's time to shine.
Of course, other fans will always argue back that Pete is a slimeball. I think with Trudy's guidance Pete can become a reformed slimeball. He'll always be socially awkward, but being charming doesn't necessarily make you a good person either (see Don Draper, Roger Sterling, etc).
I don't think Pete's response to his demotion was unreasonable either. I sulk and commiserate when I miss out on a job opportunity and I don't know anyone who doesn't.
Here's one of those historical facts that I hesitate to bring up, but find fascinating because it runs so counter to conventional wisdom. In his "Presidential Courage," Michael Beschloss notes that Martin Luther King who was actually more supportive of Nixon in 1960 as being "more dependable" on the civil rights issue. It really wasn't until two years into his adminstration that Kennedy garnered praise for his efforts in that regard.
I'm wondering why people are assuming that Lane made the decision? I'm pretty sure it was St. John's decision, Lane is just the minion. Lane even referred Don to St. John when he was bitching about not being able to replace Sal.
I think the Brits had Kenny in mind all along, probably figuring the only way to keep Pete on (with his connections) was to throw him a bone. Now that they're selling, they may welcome him taking some clients away. Remember how they didn't want the MSG account? And Pete has consistently bitched about getting the crappy accounts.
btw, I love Pete in all his complexity and can't wait to see where this is going.
Thinking back to the Pilot and how Pete might have always been destined for a research job. When Don complained that Greta's freudian death wish research wasn't any good, Pete was the one that supported the research and said she was right. Pete should definitely move into this field. If only because I want to see Pete out and about with a clipboard.
#55
Tell me about it! I hope there is enough time given to the Sterling Cooper sale and the Pete, Peggy, Duck, Grey story as well as the Drapers possible divorce. I hope we see Sal again too.
well, the questions about Peggy ("Is she spending her nights with Duck? How's the roommate situation?") were all answered in under 2 minutes in this episode, so they may surprise us! That's what I'm hoping, anyway, in terms of what we'll know by the end.
This is a little off topic, but speaking of Peggy — I love how she's learning to Work what she's got. When she said to her roommate, "I think it's good that you're being picky finally," the girl wasn't insulted in the least. Peggy knows that she'll never be The Sexy One a la Joan, but she's learning that you can do a LOT with Cute! In that soft assuming manner, you can get away with anything. No one you're insulting will feel insulted because you're soft and sweet, and the sharper company in the room will recognize your smarts.
#58 – You're thinking of him in some sort of coverall uniform, aren't you?
#59 – Do others think of Peggy as soft and sweet? I never have. Once tentative, always observant, often sharp tongued…but with the affect of soft and sweet, yes.
Ken doesn't just impress his clients with good looks and charm, he was the one that fixed one of his clients up with a prostitute. In season 2 he told Roger he could supply the phone number of the one Roger met or he had other numbers Roger could choose from.
A thought on the Pete & Lane exchange: I thought it was ironic to see Lane commending Pete for taking the "failure to promote" news so well when it is always Lane who has to take bad news well from the Brits. In fact, in Guy Walks into an Ad Agency, the Brits told Lane that his ability to take bad news and do as he is told is one of the qualities they like about him. Lane clearly likes this about Pete enough to comment on it.
In his “Presidential Courage,†Michael Beschloss notes that Martin Luther King who was actually more supportive of Nixon in 1960 as being “more dependable†on the civil rights issue. It really wasn’t until two years into his adminstration that Kennedy garnered praise for his efforts in that regard.
I had read in a book about Nixon and Kennedy that up until 1960, MLK had been a Republican. When King was arrested in Georgia for leading civil rights protests, Kennedy (who was never a supporter of civil rights in the past) called the civil rights leader to offer help and support. Nixon (who had been a past supporter of civil rights) failed to come to King's aid. And the latter turned away from Nixon and the Republicans and supported Kennedy's campaign. Of course, King and Kennedy would eventually clash over the next two to three years.
Another fact about Ken; back when Harry opened Ken's check 'by mistake' Ken was making $300/wk to Harry's $200. This seems like a lot for two people who at that time were pretty equal…what might that be about? I know Ken has always seemed more savvy than Harry and he went to a 'bigger' college, but??
Lane's comment on Ken — he "has the rare gift of making clients feel they haven't any needs" — is not about class: Ken's, or that of the people he meets. It is about how Ken sees himself in relationship to others.
If you make others feel they haven't any needs, it's because you have honred those needs already in your interaction with them. Pete is simply incapable of overlooking his own needs … at any time.
Even when, in last season's final episode, he called Peggy "perfect", that word was not about Peggy. Not at all. It was a comment on where Pete saw Peggy in relationship to himself: what, once again, he wanted from her. He said "perfect", but he meant "perfect for me."
Ken's ability to consider the needs of others comes from his more adult development. It may also come from a more positive outlook, a strong customer-service orientation, a sense of adventure, or the writer's simple curiosity about life as others live it. It probably comes from many places.
And none of those places would discount the strong possibility that Ken is also a man of his time — the kind of guy who would, for example, chase down an office colleague to see what color her panties are.
I concur with those who see Pete and Trudy as children in the latest episode. Pete started out that way, and almost without any effort, he pulled Trudy down to his level. He wasn't alone, of course. Something else influenced her direction. But they did end the episode as bratty youngsters — in their blunt refusal to engage with anyone in the world outside their apartment.
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they did end the episode as bratty youngsters — in their blunt refusal to engage with anyone in the world outside their apartment.
Pete and Trudy were engaging with one of the biggest 'world' events of that century. The only way they could engage with it was through their TV set. It was the guests at Sterling's daughters wedding who were ignoring the world in favour of their usual rich Republician hobnobbing. Obviously for Roger and Mona is the wedding was important, but I don't think it's bratty for anyone else to consider it an inappropriate time for celebration.
If Pete/Trudy were the children I think they were young and rebellious rather than young and bratty. 60s Counterculture was driven by young people who started rejecting conservativism and traditional authority.
@ 46 falafel- I don’t see it as an either/or. Pete can be a slimeball, socially awkward, and still be a visonary. It’s 1963 but he’s reading Ebony and sees blacks as a group worth marketing to. I don’t see it as a good/evil dichotomy.
It’s ironic that Lane, a bit of a ‘dweeb’ himself, and one who has personally felt under appreciated for his work efforts due to the British class system, would choose charisma over smarts.
The real pity is that Ken and Pete would be the perfect team to head accounts for SC if used properly. No question that Ken is more of a people person and a much better schmoozer, but Pete has the goods. Pete should be directing long range goals and marketing strategy while Ken manages the clients.
I agree that the Oswald/Kennedy theme works in that particular scene with Pete and Ken. But it isn’t “Good vs. Evil” or anything so grandiose. It doesn’t reflect the entire character of Pete; we know he is complex. It is just that scene. There is a somewhat ominous in tone, especially with the background music and all of the interesting choices in camera angles. For me there was something foreboding about it when watching it, without knowing for sure that this would be THE assassination episode. It really put me on edge. I know that doesn’t mean Pete is therefore some murderous monster. But Peter Dyckman Campbell getting beat out by the “haircut?” With Pete’s overwhelming sense of entitlement, I’m sure that for a second there he did want to kill Ken. But hey, who hasn’t felt that way about someone before?
I agree that the Oswald/Kennedy theme works in that particular scene with Pete and Ken. But it isn’t “Good vs. Evil” or anything so grandiose. It doesn’t reflect the entire character of Pete; we know he is complex. It is just that scene. There is a somewhat ominous in tone, especially with the background music and all of the interesting choices in camera angles. For me there was something foreboding about it when watching it, without knowing for sure that this would be THE assassination episode. It really put me on edge. I know that doesn’t mean Pete is therefore “the bad guy.” But Peter Dyckman Campbell getting beat out by the “haircut?” With Pete’s overwhelming sense of entitlement, I’m sure that for a second there he did want to kill Ken. But hey, who hasn’t felt that way about someone before?
Trudy has really come into her own as one of the smartest, most strategic thinking women on MM. I don't know if Pete realizes it, but she's got a great sense for office politics and interpersonal behavior. And, her wardrobe is something to die for.
Let's remember that not everyone rebelled in the 60s. For every hippie there was a preppie and maybe even more of the latter. Look at Goodbye Columbus: it was made in 1966, and all the clothes are right in sequence with Mad Men. I see Pete and Trudy as the Neil and Brenda of MM, except that they aren't Jewish.
Pete definitely needs to think about marketing. It’s funny how he dismisses Harry’s suggestion, when we all know he’d be perfect for it. He IS a forward thinking guy and marketing would probably be the perfect way for him to define himself at SC.
#50 I think was covered in the ep when Harry pointed out Pete was good at Marketing and Pete shot that down as “part of Research.” Pretty funny that Harry showed that biz-savvy inkling while missing the big news on TV.
I LOLed when Pryce complimented Pete on taking it well. At least he didn’t accompany the news with the gift of a dead animal!
Last ep being titled “Shut the Door. Take a Seat.” sets up my expectations of having some good office scenes.
I, for one, need no more background info on any character. I move only in one direction – forward.
Well, yes. The Kennedy assassination was terrible. But people went on with their lives. Many of them had no choice.
Adults honor their commitments to each other; their own needs are not greater than those of other people. That's how you know they are adults.
I think of a young man, a day over a year ago today, who stood before a crowd of people and thanked them for their good wishes after the death of his grandmother. He called her a "quiet hero". Then he said that there were others in the crowd before him who were also quiet heroes. He reminded them that he was doing what he was doing for them.
The next day, he was elected President.
I too was a kid who grew up in front of TV, and I think that the only way to really engage with the world is to do what we all did after that man was elected President, one year ago today: turn our backs on it and go outside. That's where the people are. Happy, sad, angry or indifferent, they're all just like me.
Unlike the TV: which will convince me, the longer I watch it, that the precise opposite is true.
#73 Really? I only remember him being in the kitchen watching tv with Jane and Bert. Then again, I've only seen it once. Still, it's kind of weird that Ken doesn't know or follow some of these social customs, yet is considered better suited to service those big clients.
I don't think the people who went to the wedding were ignoring reality. Quite a few people were talking about Kennedy. The bottom line is, life goes on, despite what happened. I have a good friend with vivid memories of the Yale Harvard game which was held the day after the assassination.
I think one of the points of the episode was that different people make different decisions, and it isn't a simple matter of right and wrong. Don and Betty went to the wedding, but Pete and Trudy stayed home. Half the guests who said they were coming to the wedding showed up, and half did not. I don't think the episode points to one side as right/good and other side as wrong/bad, as Ken would say, "it just is"
It's funny — Pete pooh-poohed marketing as a "research job," but really, that's exactly where he belongs. He is better than anyone else at S-C that we've seen at spotting trends — not just micro-trends in the industry, but national behavioral and demographic and political trends in general that affect how people spend their money. In that aspect of the business, nobody will criticize him for "trying too hard," and he doesn't have to worry as much about what people think of him personally. I don't know why he hasn't gotten that yet — maybe marketing people are still seen as kind of tertiary in that field in '63?
I notice how everyone has looked over one obvious thing. Pete is short. Ken is tall. Short people are often derided in the workplace, even to their face, and treated as though they were childish, regardless of how much effort they put forward. Research has shown that taller men get more money, more women, and just plain more respect.
Many people have equated Pete with Kennedy which I've never really understood.
One of the reasons Ken got the job is because he is apolictical. He is friendly, easy going and doesn't get overly involved in office politics. In short, he's everything Pete is not. That why Ken got the job, not Pete.
I look at the finale and it feels like my workload.
Matt: you know that we believe in you more than we believe in our own kids. But how much of this do you think you're going to get done?
What I would not recommend: trying to pull a deus ex Mencken, or something. Or a similar mundane-TV cliffhanger. Kenny gets married! Roger dies! Peggy is pregnant … again!
Not to say I wouldn't keep watching, if one of these things happened. The writers could script a UFO landing on the Empire State Building and I'd still tune in to see what you did with it. This is all just that good.
I'm just saying: so far this season we're down one grandpa, a foot, an au pair, a damned good office manager, and the best commercial director I ever saw. The housekeeper is barely hanging in there, I haven't seen the elevator guy in weeks, and still we're stuck with a rapist doctor, a worthless governor's aide and a secretary who can't handle machinery (office or any other kind). And I get this feeling the woods are full of ferals.
Yes, your numbers are great, billings are good, no one wants to work with anyone else. I'd follow you anywhere. I just think you might want to refrigerate some of these things you've got on the boil.
Or at the very least, let us help you. Have the worhless governor's aide run someone over with his car while escaping from a tryst. Late at night. On a dark road …
Well I miss Sal – looking at the pictures from Out of Town – not only does he look great in his clothes – I surmise that no one drags on a ciggie as elegantly as he does.
I didn't have a problem with Pete and Trudy staying home to watch the media coverage of the assassination. Obviously, it meant more to them that attending Margaret Sterling's wedding. I don't feel there was anything wrong with that. Despite Pete's disappointment in losing to Ken, he was not going to avoid the wedding . . . until the news of the assassination was released.
When Pete talked to Trudy about his meeting with Pyrce, his explanations to her were hilarious: he's too good to his clients. he head of something of something. he got fired, but not exactly.
Pete was nursing his grudge along with that high ball. The assassination became Pete's "holier-than-thou" moment that allowed him to move his anger at being told he's not good enough to being better than his co-workers.
He saved face with that fatal shot. And made it possible to think about taking clients from S-C.
I hope it's true that Pryce is trying to sabotage a sale.
esme — Lane as saboteur works for me.
He unilaterally refused to hire Don's art director and he promoted the easy-going Ken over the ambitious Pete. He's stirring the pot.
I keep squawking like the Raven, "River Kwai, River Kwai".
(If the Raven was obsessed with old movies that is.)
Ok …
So I was reading (and enjoying) the threads and it hit me. This is all about …….. a Television Show!
The Characters are not real…. they are written (and acted)
The walls and buildings are not real … it's a set.
So what is it about this particular show that has me talking with friends, family (and you guys as well) and building a much better relationship with my daughter? I have been thinking of several books that drew me in and I realized that this show is literature. Its Shakespeare and Turgenev mixed in with a little Otto Preminger. I enjoy Mad Men as much as I enjoy reading O'Brian or Patterson.
I am happy to say that I have the opportunity to sit back, enjoy, and reflect on a quality production like Mad Men.
Shakespeare's plots were built entirely around conventions that are used today as much in a "low" genre like the soap opera as in a "high" genre like the period drama, so I'm baffled by how some of you are attempting to isolate and elevate Mad Men as being influenced by a "nobler" cultural tradition. It's a despicable act of pure elitism.
Yes, Mad Men is better than most other shows out there, but that's a result of the pooled talents of the people involved with the writing, editing, producing, and acting of the show, not the fact that it's somehow directly influenced by famous Russian playwrights. Most of the people who work onset have never read a line by Turgenev in their lives…
Just because Weiner likes to challenge our expectations doesn't change the fact that Mad Men shares a whole bunch of conventions with "lesser" shows. If you want to watch something that exists outside of story-telling conventions, check out Werner Herzog's documentaries from the 1970s and 1980s.
BTW, I like the idea of Grey buying Sterling Cooper for many reasons. Don would have to face his worst nightmare of working, under contract, for Duck Philips. Pete would have to continue working with the Sterling Cooper crowd after screwing them over. Peggy and Duck's relationship would soon be exposed. Plus, Rachel Menken moved her business to Grey so there is an opportunity to see Rachel again, possibly at the same time that Don is getting a divorce. If Lane gets to stay and they can figure out a way to get Joan and Sal back, that'd be a great set up for the S4 office.
Maybe the best reason for a Grey merger is that Grey were the company that represented Volkswagon. Meaning they are experimental and progressive in ways that Sterling Cooper are not.
The market research job could turn out well for Pete. A loong time ago I was an Assistant AE at Hill, Holliday (now part of Omnicom) in Boston. Our head of market research was a fascinating, debonair man named Jack Sansolo. Long after I left, he became President. Market research, segmenting, targeting has become as important as the creative work. But in 1963, it wouldn't have seemed that way, as advertising was more the advertiser telling you what to do or think.
What makes you thing Pete can take a bunch of them away?
I think people are underestimating Pete’s ability to take his clients with him. I can think of a number of Pete’s clients he could easily persuade.
- Bethleham Steel. Pete already got this client to side with his copy over Don’s copy in S1.
- North American Aviation. Pete secured this account on his own when he was left in California. Since they are based in the West, Pete is probably the only one at Sterling Cooper this client has any relationship with.
- Utz. They are already upset with Sterling Cooper for exposing Mrs Utz to Jimmy Barrett. Their account was switched from Ken to Pete for this reason.
- Jai Alai. Since Hoho only came to Sterling Cooper because he and Pete were old school friends, he’ll take Pete’s advice.
Those are four big accounts just for starters. And of course if Pete managed to get Lucky Strike then he’ll have buried Sterling Cooper on that account alone. I don’t know if Pete will get that one though, because Roger seems to have stronger ties with the Garners.
“Just because Weiner likes to challenge our expectations doesn’t change the fact that Mad Men shares a whole bunch of conventions with “lesser†shows.â€
The show does share the conventions of other television shows; it has to, because it is a television show. The medium is the medium. But the content is layered with references to “bunches†of cultural expression and media other than TV. I don’t watch a lot of network product; maybe there’ve been pertinent and expansive hints at the ideas expressed in La Notte, The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit, or Frank O’Hara’s poetry in last season’s CSI: Topeka, I’ve just missed them; that would be my loss.
The possible fact that not all the actors or grips may have ever read A Midsummer’s Night Dream or Turgenev is irrelevant. I haven’t read them either. But some of the writers obviously have. And by including those references we, the audience, have starting points that we can use if we choose to enhance and expand our understanding of many other interesting things. This isn’t a bug, it’s a feature to be enjoyed.
I share your disdain for the “Elitesâ€. Let’s round them up and burn them and all their books and magazines and DVDs and such. If I run into one around here, I’ll send him or her to the flogging pit immediately.
And I’ll counter your “It’s a despicable act of pure elitism.†with “ It’s hyperbolic act of overheated rhetoric.â€
King Lear is a version of the Cinderella folktale (which shares features of Chinese tales about foot bound beauties. the story existed long before Perrault wrote it down for the aristrocrats. In older versions, Cinderella has her stepsisters dance until they drop dead.
Shakespeare and Disney draw from the same sources. But the stories they tell are very different. While it's possible to look at Disney's Cinderella as a type of "Lear story," they really don't bear comparison because one has characters that have been stripped of complexity while the other deals with the raving of a lost soul.
#87 DRush76 – in case no one answered your question, Henry is the worthless governor's aide.
On Pete and Ken – Because Pete's gun was so prominently shown in the last episode, then he lost the promotion, then Kennedy was killed, etc., etc., does anyone think the finale might be the episode when Pete finally snaps and repeats that eerie performance when he waved the gun around the office? Pure speculation, but maybe Ken gets written out trying to be a hero, if he's not, in fact, Pete's target. Don't need a back story for a character who's not going to be around long.
Many here seem to be betting on suicide, accidental or otherwise, as the season ending cliffhanger. I'm not in that camp and don't think it's going to be Betty, despite the "Bye, Bye Birdie" thing. I think that's more of a marital reference.
Pete seems pretty visionary about where other industries need to go & how they need to be perceived, but not so much his own industry (marketing FAIL). He's also incredibly high maintenance & needy (which only seems permissible in established management — in my experience — where few folks are valued for their, um, common touch & don't usually have seamless people skills). Ken's a work horse. A non-threatening work horse. He's gonna do what you tell him to do, competently and cheerfully, without asking any annoying questions; he's going to keep his customers happy; and he's going to let upper management run the company & be in charge of the future (again, in my experience, this is an equation for success). But Pete's sort of ambition, acumen, sense of entitlement, and authority-worship (pre-Kennedy assassination) is ALSO a recipe for success, just not at Sterling Cooper today.
# 106. No. I think it would be the worst writing imaginable if Pete who has just spent several days angry and upset over Kennedy's public murder and even Oswalds public murder, then went out and commited public murder himself. It's illogical.
I think I finally know who you are. And I believe that I gave explicit instructions to have you both killed. Must I do everything myself around here?!?
(sigh) … enjoy the remainder of the play, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. If you hear anything in the fifth act, please don't turn around. It's nothing.
Cultural references aren't meaning, although apparently lots of people think they are. They are shortcuts, only understandable by the few who are "in the know." If the underlying story and characters are not compelling, and/or if the writers are relying on the references to make important points, then it's elitism. And ineffective.
During that scene where Betty sees both Don & Henry in the same shot, my husband said, "man, sometimes it's just like watching Falcon Crest." Yes, it's a soap opera, so is Hamlet for crissakes. But so what? It's a damn good soap opera, with all the trappings of great literature. Everyone wins.
I never watched Falcon Crest. But I bet I would have, if I knew they were going to kill almost everyone in the cast in the last scene of a single episode.
(Sorry for the Hamlet spoiler.)
Soap operas are timid. Shakespeare had both the benefit of luscious language, and a huge set of balls.
(The Bard would leave his sack at the threshold I think.)
Ooooo!! Ooooo! Miss AB, Miss AB!! I wanna be Guilderberger. I wanna be Guilderberger. Isn't that the one Mr.Orange played in the movie. Or was that Vlad the Impaler?? or Lee Frickin' Harvey Oswald. I'm kinda confused. Got real light-headed, jumped . .up.. . too faaassst . .
(Swoooon to sofa stage left)
Must I die every time?? where is it writ? er. . .oh yeah.
Ixnay on the Amlet-hay, Ye could be tagged elitist-ay and dragged to the pillory.
Seriously, you just gave me another movie to throw in the "See again before the Big Sleep" queue, Anne B. Do you get residuals on this cultural deja vu stuff?
So, you're saying that killing off the whole cast would be a good thing? Maybe you're just quoting Rosencranz and Guildenstern like a Python addict, I dunno. It's been years since I saw that one.
When I was 20 I watched a soap opera between classes. (When I could.) Then I made a wonderful, terrible decision: I would take my savings and do a semester abroad. I made this choice at the precise moment the soap-opera guy and girl I'd been following for months were going to make, you know. Sweet commercial interruptions.
They'd had their first kiss not two weeks before I stepped on the plane. I thought, What rotten luck! Awful timing! It'll be all over when I get back!
But I went, had a wonderful time — everybody does — and ended up extending the trip. (Another thing everybody does.) I stayed an extra month. And in the week I was back in Los Angeles full-time, I turned on the TV to find … that the soap opera girl and guy were still chatting over coffee. Not even close to, you know. Dessert.
I say again: soap operas are timid. They take forever to get to the point; they make everyone in the apartment complex around the pool have affairs only with each other; they force the guy with the revelation to back off from it, and say that it was all just a dream.
I watch Mad Men because it has the courage of its convictions. Even when those convictions make me uncomfortable, I love the courage.
Maybe soap operas are "timid" and "take forever to get to the point" because : a) they're courting a different audience, one whose living situation allows them the time to follow these lengthy plotlines b) said audience hasn't had the chances to EXPERIENCE what great acting/writing in television "looks" like c) they don't cost over a million dollars per episode to produce and aren't enmeshed into an elitist web of high cultural expectations
Obviously, no one HERE is going to mistake Days of Our Lives for Mad Men, but people who haven't had the opportunity to "learn" discourses of what good TV should do aren't always going to be able to know that. Sure, they might be bored by the repetitiveness of the story-lines, but they may not necessarily associate that to the "trappings of cheap daytime dramas" like people here are wont to do.
And when you consider the fact that the DoOL franchise has been going on since 1965 and spawned over 11,000 episodes, you see that it obviously is speaking to a certain public.
Let's imagine that AMC decides to continue producing Mad Men for decades after Weiner is through with it. Do you honesty think it wouldn't eventually fall into redundancy and predictability, even if the main characters continued to be replaced? Producing a TV show is always a collaborative process, it takes time, effort, and cash to make it great. You can't just pull off a great moment in the way a writer thinks of a great sentence and writes it down "permanently"; the actors have to rehearse that moment, and then it must be filmed and edited within various time and budget constraints.
Finally, let's not forget that Weiner and his crew have just 13 episodes per year to give us; the Days of Our Lives team is producing 13 episodes in less than a MONTH! How "good" can the material be?
#118 I wasn't comparing it to Days of Our Lives, but to Falcon Crest, a nighttime prime time soap. They are slightly different animals. And yes, I do believe that after 3 years of "will they or won't they" regarding the Draper marriage, MM qualifies. If they get back together again this year, I will be severly disappointed.
Don and Betty wouldn't "get back together" because as far as we know they still are together. Maybe (hopefully) Betty will move forward with a separation, but if she stays with Don I wouldn't be surprised either. There are enough obstacles in her path to keep her from actually leaving. She tried once this season, but ended up returning home. I don't see it as a "will they or won't they" soap type of storyline at all. To me, it just seems real. Especially in their circle, in that time period.
#114- Donny Brook– I just tried to make a point up above that the cultural references are stepping off points, like the "Easter eggs", in computer games where we can find extra goodies if we want them. I don't feel we have to find them all to play and enjoy the game so to speak. I don't think MW relies on them to any major degree to tell an effective, fun story.
And I have to, respectfully, but completely disagree with any use of the term soap opera, (oops, I just see Anne B shakes the other appropriate but boring end of the proverbial snake) it's just not melodramatic enough to qualify for that label. The plotlines are really very realistic and everyday human. The psychology is developed in real time. There is little over-cooked ludicrous plot-twisting. It doesn't come near the soaper high bar to qualify to me.
"and/or if the writers are relying on the references to make important points, then it’s elitism. And ineffective
If they were relying on the extras, (I don't think they are) I would thoroughly agree that it would be bad, ineffective writing. But in any event, I just don't understand the "elitism" label be used at all. Even if the whole show was constructed of educated inside jokes, I fail to get how understanding the jokes would be "elitist". There's no force or coercion being used to make anyone have to appreciate any of it. It's all accessible to us all with a little work and some friends' opinions and observations.
That's why I'm behaving like a lunatic with the word and the concept. I just do not see how it applies. On lunch break I'll gazoogle around and try to find a definition to enlighten me. I will keep everyone posted. Unlike the WashPost, I love making retractions. Ask the narcissist Anne B. ha,ha.
I think, less of me, that this is the first time I've seen a writer offer a retration before having anything to retract. You will notice that I almost never retract a thing. I am the Fox News of this blog: I might be wrong but darn it, I'm sure!
Please don't take me as the enemy of soaps, all. They are so mockable. What was the one that put the female character (was her name Marlena?) in the cave or elevator shaft or whatever, for weeks?
We kept seeing the ads for that on Must See TV. It was awesome.
"On advice from counsel (see above#125), LOM has decided not to offer a retraction with regard to earlier comments concerning the use of terms soap opera and elitism, and since LOM is logging off LOM will not be able to explain this decision at this time."
No offense given or taken I trust. Have a cool day. I hope to be lurking later, keep it lively but do not shoot my pigeons please.
@122 Red Medicine — Can everyone agree that if it weren’t for Weiner’s skillful writing and the acting skills of Jon Hamm and January Jones, this particular element of the show would get TRASHED?
I guess yes. But the question is a little like asking Mary Todd Lincoln: "Well, other than THAT, how'd you like the play?"
I agree with #121. Perhaps my gut-feeling that Betty will die is a subconscious wish on my part for the conclusion of this somewhat redundant quality to Don and Betty’s troubled marriage.
Can everyone agree that if it weren’t for Weiner’s skillful writing and the acting skills of Jon Hamm and January Jones, this particular element of the show would get TRASHED? (It already has been, in some instances.)
For what it's worth, I think that even a gritty show like The Wire featured numerous "soap opera" elements, like McNulty's dealings with his kids, and Shakima Greggs' romantic life.
I used to be able to name every nut that there was. And it used to drive my mother crazy, because she used to say, "More of Me, (I was younger then, it was true) if you don't stop naming nuts," and the joke was that we lived in Pine Nut, and I think that's what put it in my mind at that point. So she would hear me in the other room, and she'd just start yelling. I'd say, "Peanut. Hazelnut. Cashew nut. Macadamia nut." That was the one that would send her into going crazy. She'd say, "Would you stop naming nuts!" And my bloodhound Hubert used to be able to make this sound, he couldn't talk, but he'd go "rrrawr rrawr" and that sounded like Macadamia nut. Pine nut, which is a nut, but it's also the name of a town. Pistachio nut. Red pistachio nut. Natural, all natural white pistachio nut, etc.
Well I forgot the point.
I came back to attain satori and to be entertained, not necessarily in that order. Where for art Thou?
Woof! Foiled!
Congratulate Ms. Darkly, she has uncloaked Rosenstern this time!
Buck Laughlin: Am I nuts? Something's wrong with his feet.
Trevor Beckwith: I never thought I'd find myself saying this, but you're right.
Buck Laughlin: He's got two left feet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAI3u8f2iRs
Hoist upon my own petard up there @128 and it is as uncomfortable as it sounds, so here I forge once more into the void. Compare and contrast:
Mad Men ends not one but two, two I tells ya, seasons with unwanted pregnancies of different characters,
AND then read this small paragraph about part of the plot involving just John and Marlena from Days of Our Lives;
In 1991, Hall returned to Days of our Lives, and returned to her role as Dr. Marlena Evans. It was revealed that Marlena's supposed death in the plane crash was not true and Marlena had spent the previous four years in a coma. Soon afterwards, Wayne Northrop, the original portrayer of Roman Brady also returned to the show. In a stunning turn of events, Drake Hogestyn remained on the show through a piece of storytelling that revealed that his character was an impostor programmed with the memories of the real Roman Brady, and was a dangerous assassin. As a result, the fake Roman reverted to the name John Black. While Marlena attempted to reconcile with the real Roman, she and John could not deny their mutual attraction, and eventually the two had an affair that produced their daughter Belle, and led to Marlena and Roman's divorce.
We disagree I guess.
(Excuse my snark, I'm a might prickly in the morn.)
…just another omnivorous media fan here. Once a fan of a "turgid supernatural soap opera"–and I've also attended many a local Shakespeare production. I mean–they've made movies of his stuff! They show them on TV!
Apparently I do need to brush up on my Turgenev. According to Wikipedia, his father was a chronic philanderer & his mother an heiress with an unhappy childhood who suffered in her marriage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Turgenev
Excellent point. Ken, with his published short story and positive attitude has always been envied by Pete.
S-C is one of those rare offices where the staff gathers together to console one another during time of crisis, and to play together during time of celebration. Ken's the kind of guy you'd like to work with.
Good point. I sure wish they would give Ken a backstory, tho. Is it so hard to write something for a well-adjusted character?
What was the quote?
"Pete's the kind of guy who makes clients feel their worries are being taken care of; Ken makes them feel they don't have any".
Approximately.
But what does "warming up secretaries" have to do with the Accounts job?
*Roger Sterling is grinning fiendishly in my head*
I think the obvious difference, that Lane stated, is that Pete is noticably needy while Kenny makes everything feel breezy and effortless. And from what we have seen Accounts is a "people pleasing" job. Ken is obviously better with people than Pete is. But then, who isn't?
I agree with Pete that their performance in the test has been equal. I actually thought Pete did better than Ken in this respect. Ken messed up the patio deal and was partly responsible for the lawnmower accident. Pete only messed up with the Admiral account because the clients were too racist to take good business advice. But Roger was right when he said "Half the time this business comes down to I don't like that guy !"
I think it all goes back to the "I have ideas!" speech. Pete does have good ideas. Better ideas than Ken. Maybe better ideas than anyone in Sterling Cooper. But his bosses put him in Accounts because – "You people tell me that I'm good with people. Which is strange because I never heard that before." They put Pete in the wrong field and used him as a blue-blood mascote for the company. He needs to reinvent himself.
Didn't Don actually tell Pete at one point that he won't go very far because no will like him? I think this was awhile back, so I'm a little fuzzy on this.
But what does “warming up secretaries†have to do with the Accounts job?
falafel, you answer your own question:
And from what we have seen Accounts is a “people pleasing†job. Ken is obviously better with people than Pete is.
Madnesse: Didn’t Don actually tell Pete at one point that he won’t go very far because no will like him?
That was in the pilot.
From the pilot script:
DON
Advertising is a very small world.
And when you do something like
malign the reputation of some girl
from the steno pool on her first
day, you make it even smaller.
Keep it up and even if you do get
my job, you'll never run this
place. You'll die in that corner
office: a mid-level account
executive with a little bit of
hair, who women go home with out of
pity.
They've arrived at the big board room. Don stops and
whispers.
DON (CONT'D)
And you know why? Because no one
will like you.
Pete is speechless. Don
It would be nice if the writers developed Ken more. Have I missed something? Do we know anything more about him other than he is a short story writer who grew up in Vermont and made his own ice cream as a child? We know Paul went to Princeton. Where did Ken go to college?
Suzanne: Add that Ken's father is/was a salesman and his mother is "heavyset." And he could walk to work but does not.
I know, it was just the phrasing – it made it sound like the key to Ken's success was getting the ladies hot. But if Ken and Roger are anything to go by being a good cad is also a quality they like in Accounts, since that job seems to involve a lot of pimping and hand jobs.
I do identify with Pete's frustration though. In his work Pete isn't bad with people on purpose and often he can't even figure out what he is doing wrong. I think Pete does have more talent than Ken when it comes to Advertising, but Ken is naturally charming and helpful.
falafel, I didn't even notice the getting the ladies hot thing.
But what's significant to me is that secretaries are working class; "the common people." Pete is a blue blood who couldn't give a shit about secretaries. Ken's common touch is part of what got him promoted.
I work in sales/account management and within the first 10 minutes of this episode, MW had me thinking of todays office politics. The fact that Ken gets the promotion even though Pete works harder and has the ideas ahead of their time is so spot on, then as it is today.
And that's not to discount Ken. I think he's got the smarts, and obviously some creativity, with his fiction being published and all. But he also has that "it" factor that makes everyone comfortable, women and men. Quite the opposite of our somewhat twitchy Pete, who often comes across as trying to hard to fit in.
I see it all the time at work. The person that can crack the appropriate joke, appear to have life by the tail (effortlessly,) and leave most people feeling somewhat lighter or happier upon their exit, are the ones who get the rewards. Work commitment be damned, it's like Don said "…It's about the way you make them feel." And Ken makes the clients who are buying the SC product feel carefree.
Thanks Justin!
In "New Amsterdam", Pete's job was saved for the wrong reason. He has several strike-out on his record. Some are public, such as the New Amsterdam fiasco plus the blackmail attempt on Season 1. Some are not, like his paternity and the Gudrun story.
Even then, the scripts go the extra mile in order to make him a 3D character who may hit the right note here or there.
His "ideas" would be better used by some non-glamour industry like insurance or food processing. And he needs some life-changing experiences that shake him off his sense of entitlement.
(The last sentence can also be about myself, or a lot of people raised in an atmosphere where such sense of entitlement is programmed into you. My wife was raised in the USSR, and believe me the differences in upbringing get very interesting sometimes)
@ 1 pattishea- "Mad Men" is a lot darker than the typical workplace show, but habving characters console each other and party together is quite common for the genre.
I want to see more of Ken's backstory. We're pretty sure there isn't a deep dark secret. However, it would be interesting to see how he turned out the way he did. I really want to see his apartment. I have a feeling it's the stereotypical bachelor apartment, but slightly neater. He doesn't want the ladies to think he's a slob.
Pete has always struck me as a mediocrity who perfectly personifies the "Peter Principle" (how's that for alliteration). He may have some great ideas, but only seems to be able to take them so far.
I know from my Patsy post that many associate Pete with Kennedy, but I see more of the Kennedy charisma in Ken. Ken, btw, is the one who first rides the infamous lawn mower from Guy Walks….
I wonder if we'll be seeing more of Ken next season — now that he's gotten the promotion maybe this makes him a more important character? But still, I think the point of Ken is that he is the "what you see is what you get" All-American golden boy type of a character. It makes a great contrast to darker characters like Pete. So, I say no backstory is necessary. I would like to see him in more office scenes though. And who knows on this show, maybe there are some glitches ahead in this charmed life he leads.
Which was the ep when Ken had supper at Sal's?
BTW, does anyone else think they wanted Ken for the job all along? In Guy's meeting he introduced Accounts as "Mr Cosgrove and Mr Campbell, for the present". It seems like the Brits knew that Pete's promotion was only temporary. Maybe they just used Pete to fire up Ken's ambition. They didn't need 6 months to work out that Ken had better people skills than Pete. You could work that out in 2 minutes.
I'm looking forward to the Darwin test backfiring if Pete sucessfully takes half of Sterling Cooper's clients away with him.
I think Ken’s victory also reflects Lane’s recent embrace of the American way of doing business. He’s attracted to Ken’s sunny disposition and easygoing confidence, which seems singularly American to him. In contrast, Pete’s awkwardness and rigid sense of social rank remind Lane of his British compatriots, who, for good reason, he’s eager to reject.
And Ken was the grown-up, Pete was still acting like a bratty child. JFK's death made it even more obvious how immature he and Trudy are.
@10 Joan vs Jane
Right on. As the resident Pete at my office, I wish I read your take on office politics a while back.
#18 DL: Doncha mean his mom was a "lobster?" LOL
@ Matt Maul #14
I know from my Patsy post that many associate Pete with Kennedy, but I see more of the Kennedy charisma in Ken. Ken, btw, is the one who first rides the infamous lawn mower from Guy Walks….
Just what I was about to say! If Pete is the resentful Oswald (as posited by Matt Maul on the Patsy thread), then Ken ("Kenny and his haircut"), with his charm that wins everyone over, would have to be Kennedy. Not that Pete is planning to take out his rifle and scope it on Ken, just that that's what's being mirrored.
#14 Matt Maul:
"I know from my Patsy post that many associate Pete with Kennedy, but I see more of the Kennedy charisma in Ken. Ken, btw, is the one who first rides the infamous lawn mower from Guy Walks…"
I very much agree… and when I was watching the scene after Pete gets the bad news from Lane, where he is glowering at Ken (who is on the floor fixing the heater) and the somewhat creepy music is playing in the background, I immediately thought the he could be the Oswald to Ken's Kennedy. Of course this was me being a bit "overwrought" after seeing that rifle in Pete's office in the opening scene, and that guy with the hunter's cap walking behind Pete, and just knowing that this would be THE episode…well it all seemed a bit ominous at that moment!
#8 – Ken is a Columbia graduate. I think he's mentioned it a few times (?). But it is first mentioned when they flash across his Atlantic Monthly short story and biographical blurb in "5G." It also says he's lived in the New York area for most of his life. However, he's mentioned several times that he's from/lived in Vermont (like when Sal and Peggy are discussing ideas for Popsicle and he talks about making ice cream).
Alma Maters we know of: Ken – Columbia; Pete – Dartmouth; Paul – Princeton; Harry – U Wisconsin; Smitty – U Michigan; Peggy – Miss Deaver's Secretarial School.
Also, have we ever seen Ken's office? We've been everyone else's but I don't remember the show ever taking us into Ken's.
Pete is a blue blood who couldn’t give a shit about secretaries. Ken’s common touch is part of what got him promoted.
But the clients are NOT working class girls. They are mostly rich privileged white men who are impressed by Pete's ancestry. That is the whole reason Bert put Pete in the Accounts job and didn't let Don fire him. Because his family name was valued by rich clients. I don't think Ken's common touch is a factor in getting the job. It's his people skills. Sterling Cooper always valued Pete's blue blood as his only real asset.
# 19 falafel Says:
November 4th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
BTW, does anyone else think they wanted Ken for the job all along? In Guy’s meeting he introduced Accounts as “Mr Cosgrove and Mr Campbell, for the presentâ€. It seems like the Brits knew that Pete’s promotion was only temporary. Maybe they just used Pete to fire up Ken’s ambition. They didn’t need 6 months to work out that Ken had better people skills than Pete. You could work that out in 2 minutes.
I was really trying to figure that out…were they just keeping Pete around for his blue-blood connections? But I haven't really seen that come into play lately. And if the Brits want to sell SC anyway, why make this kind of decison now? Or maybe this does have something to do with a possible sale of the company?
What's going to happen to Ken in the finale and next season, who knows? Damn, Nov 8 can't come ne sooner.
More alma maters:
Betty- Bryn Mawr. Don- Night School of Hard Knocks.
falafel: I think a good manager/ boss (which I mostly think Lane is) would also take into consideration how well Ken interacts with the rest of the SC staff. For a senior level position with presumably a lot of direct reports and subordinates, you also have to consider whether his underlings will love him or hate him. We know Pete can't be a lot of fun to work for. Ken's probably great to work for.
Regarding the sale- maybe it's too messy to a prospective buyer to have this ambiguous senior management situation, so they felt they needed to resolve it. I've seen that happen.
And yet they won't spring for a good art director for Don. Penny pinching.
Think we'll hear about the sale next week?
Or maybe this does have something to do with a possible sale of the company?
I wonder if Lane is scheming. We know he doesn't want to sell up and leave. Maybe Lane is counting on Pete pulling out and taking his clients, meaning that Sterling Cooper's price tag will drop.
I still think fans are looking at the Kennedy symbolism in a superficial way. Ken is charming so he must be Kennedy and Pete is creepy so he must be Oswald? Pete supports the ideas and changes Kennedy wanted to bring about. Pete was pushing for black demographic marketting; the advertising equivilant of Kennedy pushing for civil rights. And Matt Weiner has been saying that Pete is the shows symbolic Kennedy since S1.
"I wonder if Lane is scheming. We know he doesn’t want to sell up and leave. Maybe Lane is counting on Pete pulling out and taking his clients, meaning that Sterling Cooper’s price tag will drop."
falafel,
If Lane is Colonel Nicholson from Bridge on the River Kwai this is exactly what he has in mind.
I don't care how smart or how good you are with your job duties, if people dislike you, you will wither on the vine. And it usually starts within the office. Do you work well with others? Are you a team player? The inner office staff talks, and if the answer to these questions are 'no,' management always gets wind of it. It makes for an unsettling work environment and you then become part of the problem. I guarantee the attitude Pete has to those "beneath" him carries over to wait staff, coat checks, and the like and that is noticed by clients. Think of how nasty Pete is with his secretary…In fact, his small apology to her after the whiny cocoa comment, is the only time I've seen treat her respectfully. Hopefully, that retraction, along with his more modern dress, is the Pete of the future. For his own sake.
#8 – Thanks Empress Rouge. I now remember Ken referencing Columbia. But, how did I miss Pete went to Dartmouth? Good. Interesting. I'd like to know where Jane Segal Sterling went. I remember Joan saying she was a "college girl" unlike the other secretaries-but no more.
I felt pretty bad for old Pete despite his stinker moments but it is always good to have a character who you sometimes like and sometimes don't. He'll be alright though. I've noticed a lot of people saying Pete was "childish" in his reaction but I can't think of too many people who'd be looking too thrilled after getting a promotion yanked out from under them and actually being demoted. Some folks can smile and pretend but anyone would be disappointed. I loved his "mod" turtleneck. As soon as I saw it, I thought of the Beatles first American album as others have mentioned (it was the only Beatles record myMom had in our house when I was a kid and it always fascinated me and then when I was a teen I got all of their Brit albums). I also yelled out "Look at Pete, looking all mod"
I hope Ken's backstory is not missing for a "reason", but all we know about him is what we see and hear. Open and honest, he admitted his blame in the lawn mower incident – and was the only person in the whole office that got down on the floor with Joan and tried to help. (Maybe the Brits noticed that and it helped him nail down the job.)
#32 – I wouldn't describe Kennedy as "pushing" for civil rights, just like I wouldn't call Pete progressive. Kennedy supported civil rights, mostly during his campaign. He proposed the Civil Rights act but it never got it passed in Congress. It was Johnson, a Southern Democrat, who pushed it through.
However, I see more of Pete-Kennedy connection in this. Pete's not THAT progressive (although he was disgusted by Roger's blackface). He only brought up "the negro market" and talked to Hollis because he needed to pitch something to Admiral. Also, Trudy is Pete's Jackie. She definitely supports/makes him look good. Pete is SC's Kennedy, except Ken ended up w/ all of Kennedy's charisma.
#35 – We don't know where Jane or Joan went to college (S1 roommate Carol was Joan's college friend). In Jane's case, I think it might have been a technical or secretarial school, something 2-year since she, like Peggy, started working at age 20.
@ 38 68Firebird-LOL
With apologies to Stephan Bishop:
"Let me t-t-tell you 'bout some co-workers I know
They're kinda crazy but you'll dig the show
They can party 'till the break of dawn
at Sterling Cooper you can't go wrong
Kenny's he's the ladies man, every girl falls into hands
Peggy and Smitty playing cat and mouse
and Ms. Hallolway, she's the queen of the
advertising house, advertising house, advertising house,
advertising house, advertising house, advertising house "
Pete is SC’s Kennedy, except Ken ended up w/ all of Kennedy’s charisma.
Pete's unpopularity doesn't really negate the Kennedy parrellel. The good people of Sterling Cooper don't like Pete, but they never liked Kennedy either. They were all Nixon voters. They are shocked over the human tragedy, but they don't have any political sympathies like Pete does.
I do agree that Pete/Trudy are shaping up to be a great team. I actually think this episode showed that Pete can make Trudy a better person too. Trudy is certainly teaching Pete better manners than his cold contemptuous parents ever did. But Trudy has always been a conformist. Pete is teaching Trudy to question authority like she has never done before. This is their process of 'growing up', through maturity but also disillusionment.
@ falafel – apparently, we're in a minority re: Pete but I think we'll end up being correct
I too don't understand how creepy = Oswald. I'm going to paste a few of my comments from the "Patsy" post (since they're relevant in this discussion as well) and add some stuff to what I originally said there.
Haven’t any of you been in a situation where you’re passed over for a promotion (or something analogous) after working extremely hard (and whatever other criticisms of Pete, I’m confident that he does work harder than Ken based on the few snippets we’ve seen of them in earlier episodes) and been upset? It’s especially hard to lose out to somebody who seems to have a charmed existence, like Ken. I can see why Ken might be a good choice from a personality perspective, but let’s face it, the show copped out after the exciting introduction of this competition subplot in episode 1. We barely saw them doing any accounts stuff and from my perspective, they were about even (as Pete noted). The subplot could have been an opportunity to tell us more about Ken (rather than him always serving as a foil for Sal or Pete) and his motivations. That said, I highly doubt we will ever get more insight into Ken. The whole point with Pete vs. Ken is that one guy (Pete) really really wants his job AND has foresight into where advertising needs/is going to go – we've never gotten the sense that Ken would care one way or the other about his position nor that he actually cares that much about advertising period.
Pete actually really impressed me in this episode, and it’s interesting that a lot of people seem to think his comments re: his colleagues’ reactions to Kennedy’s death were hyperbole just to make Trudy sympathize with him (or that they're both just immature). A lot of people WERE happy that Kennedy was killed – he was both loved and reviled. And in fact, Harry’s wife (Jennifer) makes a couple of comments at the wedding reception to Don & Betty that suggest that both she and Harry think Kennedy may have been “asking for this.†So honestly, Pete’s remembrance of what happened at the office is probably accurate – people may have been initially shocked, but not everyone would have been sad about it. This was an office that went for Nixon, remember that. Also, Pete handled his demotion fairly well (I really thought he was gonna dump coffee on Ken) – he’s allowed to whine to his wife, at least they’re having honest conversations (which is more than I can normally say for Don & Betty). To me, Pete’s whole reaction to the assassination cemented the fact that he’s Sterling Cooper’s Kennedy to Don’s Nixon (the theme started in season 1 during the election campaign). Is Pete a classic good guy? No, obviously not. But I think that a lot of posters don't give him credit for the fact that he IS ahead of the curve (one of his similarities with Peggy IMO). We can fawn over Ken's relaxed nature all we want but at the end of the day, we don't know a lot about him (for example, that secretary whose space heater he was fixing was also the one who's frequently shown sitting on his lap, no? Would he do the same thing for the less attractive women in the phone room?) and I see no evidence that he outshone Pete from a pure accounts perspective.
As a Columbia alum, I'm glad to see a fellow Lion succeed in life. God knows our football team isn't going to make us famous.
Why did Ken get promoted? Here's one thought. Promotions are now being handled by the Brits. Lane has dropped many hints that he did not go to an Oxbridge school. The first thing Pete did was throw his old money credentials at him (which real blue bloods do not do. It's too showy).
Ken, with his down to earth manner, is much more English and self-effacing than Pete. He also had a story published, which would most likely impress the Brits, since an appreciation of literature is present at all levels of society. Finally, what Lane said (paraphrasing) — that Pete takes care of clients' needs, but Ken's clients don't have any, is another factor. The English find fussing to be unhelpful.
Oh, pleeze. Ken got the job because he's never had a bad day in his life. Pete didn't get it because he is a bit of a dweeb.
Lane didn't say that exactly but that's what everyone was thinking.
The Pete = Kennedy observations are very well taken, and I agree that it has been a theme since Season 1's Nixon vs Kennedy. It's just that for the purpose of thinking about Pete and Ken, the Oswald/Kennedy analogy works well, too. People who didn't like Kennedy thought of him in very much the way that Ken can be viewed: superficial, skating through on looks ("Kenny and his haircut" as Pete describes him sourly) and charm.
In very much the same way, Don can be metaphorized (is that a word?) as Nixon (as he was in Nixon vs Kennedy, the dirt-poor child raising himself up through his own efforts vs silver-spoon Pete/Kennedy), Kennedy (the handsome golden-boy womanizer with the perfect-seeming wife and two children), or even Oswald (as was pointed out, he is dressed exactly like Oswald at the moment that Betty shoots down their marriage).
@ falafel – apparently, we’re in a minority re: Pete but I think we’ll end up being correct.
Keep the faith! Pete is the dark horse of this show. We know that history has great things in store for Pete and his black turtleneck. I'm hoping that 1964 will be Pete's time to shine.
Of course, other fans will always argue back that Pete is a slimeball. I think with Trudy's guidance Pete can become a reformed slimeball. He'll always be socially awkward, but being charming doesn't necessarily make you a good person either (see Don Draper, Roger Sterling, etc).
I don't think Pete's response to his demotion was unreasonable either. I sulk and commiserate when I miss out on a job opportunity and I don't know anyone who doesn't.
#32 and 32
Here's one of those historical facts that I hesitate to bring up, but find fascinating because it runs so counter to conventional wisdom. In his "Presidential Courage," Michael Beschloss notes that Martin Luther King who was actually more supportive of Nixon in 1960 as being "more dependable" on the civil rights issue. It really wasn't until two years into his adminstration that Kennedy garnered praise for his efforts in that regard.
#48, I agree Retro Girl. But I often find when I argue the case for Pete being forward-thinking, fans often argue back that Pete is just a creep.
I'm wondering why people are assuming that Lane made the decision? I'm pretty sure it was St. John's decision, Lane is just the minion. Lane even referred Don to St. John when he was bitching about not being able to replace Sal.
I think the Brits had Kenny in mind all along, probably figuring the only way to keep Pete on (with his connections) was to throw him a bone. Now that they're selling, they may welcome him taking some clients away. Remember how they didn't want the MSG account? And Pete has consistently bitched about getting the crappy accounts.
btw, I love Pete in all his complexity and can't wait to see where this is going.
#53 & 54.
Thinking back to the Pilot and how Pete might have always been destined for a research job. When Don complained that Greta's freudian death wish research wasn't any good, Pete was the one that supported the research and said she was right. Pete should definitely move into this field. If only because I want to see Pete out and about with a clipboard.
#55
Tell me about it! I hope there is enough time given to the Sterling Cooper sale and the Pete, Peggy, Duck, Grey story as well as the Drapers possible divorce. I hope we see Sal again too.
well, the questions about Peggy ("Is she spending her nights with Duck? How's the roommate situation?") were all answered in under 2 minutes in this episode, so they may surprise us! That's what I'm hoping, anyway, in terms of what we'll know by the end.
This is a little off topic, but speaking of Peggy — I love how she's learning to Work what she's got. When she said to her roommate, "I think it's good that you're being picky finally," the girl wasn't insulted in the least. Peggy knows that she'll never be The Sexy One a la Joan, but she's learning that you can do a LOT with Cute! In that soft assuming manner, you can get away with anything. No one you're insulting will feel insulted because you're soft and sweet, and the sharper company in the room will recognize your smarts.
I really hope we get more of her in the finale.
And SAL!!
#58 – You're thinking of him in some sort of coverall uniform, aren't you?
#59 – Do others think of Peggy as soft and sweet? I never have. Once tentative, always observant, often sharp tongued…but with the affect of soft and sweet, yes.
Ken doesn't just impress his clients with good looks and charm, he was the one that fixed one of his clients up with a prostitute. In season 2 he told Roger he could supply the phone number of the one Roger met or he had other numbers Roger could choose from.
A thought on the Pete & Lane exchange: I thought it was ironic to see Lane commending Pete for taking the "failure to promote" news so well when it is always Lane who has to take bad news well from the Brits. In fact, in Guy Walks into an Ad Agency, the Brits told Lane that his ability to take bad news and do as he is told is one of the qualities they like about him. Lane clearly likes this about Pete enough to comment on it.
"And Ken was the grown-up, Pete was still acting like a bratty child. JFK’s death made it even more obvious how immature he and Trudy are."
How?
In his “Presidential Courage,†Michael Beschloss notes that Martin Luther King who was actually more supportive of Nixon in 1960 as being “more dependable†on the civil rights issue. It really wasn’t until two years into his adminstration that Kennedy garnered praise for his efforts in that regard.
I had read in a book about Nixon and Kennedy that up until 1960, MLK had been a Republican. When King was arrested in Georgia for leading civil rights protests, Kennedy (who was never a supporter of civil rights in the past) called the civil rights leader to offer help and support. Nixon (who had been a past supporter of civil rights) failed to come to King's aid. And the latter turned away from Nixon and the Republicans and supported Kennedy's campaign. Of course, King and Kennedy would eventually clash over the next two to three years.
So… Pete and Ken are basically Goofus and Gallant?
Another fact about Ken; back when Harry opened Ken's check 'by mistake' Ken was making $300/wk to Harry's $200. This seems like a lot for two people who at that time were pretty equal…what might that be about? I know Ken has always seemed more savvy than Harry and he went to a 'bigger' college, but??
Pete = Neidermeyer
Ken = Otter
Lane's comment on Ken — he "has the rare gift of making clients feel they haven't any needs" — is not about class: Ken's, or that of the people he meets. It is about how Ken sees himself in relationship to others.
If you make others feel they haven't any needs, it's because you have honred those needs already in your interaction with them. Pete is simply incapable of overlooking his own needs … at any time.
Even when, in last season's final episode, he called Peggy "perfect", that word was not about Peggy. Not at all. It was a comment on where Pete saw Peggy in relationship to himself: what, once again, he wanted from her. He said "perfect", but he meant "perfect for me."
Ken's ability to consider the needs of others comes from his more adult development. It may also come from a more positive outlook, a strong customer-service orientation, a sense of adventure, or the writer's simple curiosity about life as others live it. It probably comes from many places.
And none of those places would discount the strong possibility that Ken is also a man of his time — the kind of guy who would, for example, chase down an office colleague to see what color her panties are.
I concur with those who see Pete and Trudy as children in the latest episode. Pete started out that way, and almost without any effort, he pulled Trudy down to his level. He wasn't alone, of course. Something else influenced her direction. But they did end the episode as bratty youngsters — in their blunt refusal to engage with anyone in the world outside their apartment.
this is completely random but u found these last nigh tand thought they were kind of creative some of them are a stretch , but they are my two favorite shows and i thought i would share this
http://www.buzzsugar.com/5976322
and i apologize for being off topic
#61 Re Ken's "little black book," I've always wondered why he keeps coming to office parties stag. He knows a lot of women.
Here's another one: Ken is Kramer, Pete is George.
DB, Ken wasn't stag at the wedding.
#65: LOL. Many's the time I spent nervously awaiting the call of the dentist reading "G&G." Do they still publish "Highlights for Children" anymore?
#70: Phew. I was afraid no one remembered Goofus and Gallant anymore.
Amazingly enough, Highlights is still around… and so are Goofus and Gallant, albeit updated for the internet age…
http://www.highlightskids.com/Stories/GnG3/h1intr…
they did end the episode as bratty youngsters — in their blunt refusal to engage with anyone in the world outside their apartment.
Pete and Trudy were engaging with one of the biggest 'world' events of that century. The only way they could engage with it was through their TV set. It was the guests at Sterling's daughters wedding who were ignoring the world in favour of their usual rich Republician hobnobbing. Obviously for Roger and Mona is the wedding was important, but I don't think it's bratty for anyone else to consider it an inappropriate time for celebration.
If Pete/Trudy were the children I think they were young and rebellious rather than young and bratty. 60s Counterculture was driven by young people who started rejecting conservativism and traditional authority.
@ 46 falafel- I don’t see it as an either/or. Pete can be a slimeball, socially awkward, and still be a visonary. It’s 1963 but he’s reading Ebony and sees blacks as a group worth marketing to. I don’t see it as a good/evil dichotomy.
It’s ironic that Lane, a bit of a ‘dweeb’ himself, and one who has personally felt under appreciated for his work efforts due to the British class system, would choose charisma over smarts.
The real pity is that Ken and Pete would be the perfect team to head accounts for SC if used properly. No question that Ken is more of a people person and a much better schmoozer, but Pete has the goods. Pete should be directing long range goals and marketing strategy while Ken manages the clients.
I agree that the Oswald/Kennedy theme works in that particular scene with Pete and Ken. But it isn’t “Good vs. Evil” or anything so grandiose. It doesn’t reflect the entire character of Pete; we know he is complex. It is just that scene. There is a somewhat ominous in tone, especially with the background music and all of the interesting choices in camera angles. For me there was something foreboding about it when watching it, without knowing for sure that this would be THE assassination episode. It really put me on edge. I know that doesn’t mean Pete is therefore some murderous monster. But Peter Dyckman Campbell getting beat out by the “haircut?” With Pete’s overwhelming sense of entitlement, I’m sure that for a second there he did want to kill Ken. But hey, who hasn’t felt that way about someone before?
I agree that the Oswald/Kennedy theme works in that particular scene with Pete and Ken. But it isn’t “Good vs. Evil” or anything so grandiose. It doesn’t reflect the entire character of Pete; we know he is complex. It is just that scene. There is a somewhat ominous in tone, especially with the background music and all of the interesting choices in camera angles. For me there was something foreboding about it when watching it, without knowing for sure that this would be THE assassination episode. It really put me on edge. I know that doesn’t mean Pete is therefore “the bad guy.” But Peter Dyckman Campbell getting beat out by the “haircut?” With Pete’s overwhelming sense of entitlement, I’m sure that for a second there he did want to kill Ken. But hey, who hasn’t felt that way about someone before?
Trudy has really come into her own as one of the smartest, most strategic thinking women on MM. I don't know if Pete realizes it, but she's got a great sense for office politics and interpersonal behavior. And, her wardrobe is something to die for.
Let's remember that not everyone rebelled in the 60s. For every hippie there was a preppie and maybe even more of the latter. Look at Goodbye Columbus: it was made in 1966, and all the clothes are right in sequence with Mad Men. I see Pete and Trudy as the Neil and Brenda of MM, except that they aren't Jewish.
**Oops, sorry for the double post**
Pete definitely needs to think about marketing. It’s funny how he dismisses Harry’s suggestion, when we all know he’d be perfect for it. He IS a forward thinking guy and marketing would probably be the perfect way for him to define himself at SC.
#50 I think was covered in the ep when Harry pointed out Pete was good at Marketing and Pete shot that down as “part of Research.” Pretty funny that Harry showed that biz-savvy inkling while missing the big news on TV.
I LOLed when Pryce complimented Pete on taking it well. At least he didn’t accompany the news with the gift of a dead animal!
Last ep being titled “Shut the Door. Take a Seat.” sets up my expectations of having some good office scenes.
I, for one, need no more background info on any character. I move only in one direction – forward.
I can’t believe how much unfinished business is hanging over the finale.
Since we already know there’s going to be a Fourth Season–wonder how much business will be left hanging until then?
Well, yes. The Kennedy assassination was terrible. But people went on with their lives. Many of them had no choice.
Adults honor their commitments to each other; their own needs are not greater than those of other people. That's how you know they are adults.
I think of a young man, a day over a year ago today, who stood before a crowd of people and thanked them for their good wishes after the death of his grandmother. He called her a "quiet hero". Then he said that there were others in the crowd before him who were also quiet heroes. He reminded them that he was doing what he was doing for them.
The next day, he was elected President.
I too was a kid who grew up in front of TV, and I think that the only way to really engage with the world is to do what we all did after that man was elected President, one year ago today: turn our backs on it and go outside. That's where the people are. Happy, sad, angry or indifferent, they're all just like me.
Unlike the TV: which will convince me, the longer I watch it, that the precise opposite is true.
#73 Really? I only remember him being in the kitchen watching tv with Jane and Bert. Then again, I've only seen it once. Still, it's kind of weird that Ken doesn't know or follow some of these social customs, yet is considered better suited to service those big clients.
I don't think the people who went to the wedding were ignoring reality. Quite a few people were talking about Kennedy. The bottom line is, life goes on, despite what happened. I have a good friend with vivid memories of the Yale Harvard game which was held the day after the assassination.
I think one of the points of the episode was that different people make different decisions, and it isn't a simple matter of right and wrong. Don and Betty went to the wedding, but Pete and Trudy stayed home. Half the guests who said they were coming to the wedding showed up, and half did not. I don't think the episode points to one side as right/good and other side as wrong/bad, as Ken would say, "it just is"
RE: Ken vs. Pete
There are people who make you feel like you're the only person in the room = Ken.
There are people who make the entire damn room about themselves = Pete.
Love both characters. But having worked with many ad sales people, the most successful ones are those exactly like Ken.
It's funny — Pete pooh-poohed marketing as a "research job," but really, that's exactly where he belongs. He is better than anyone else at S-C that we've seen at spotting trends — not just micro-trends in the industry, but national behavioral and demographic and political trends in general that affect how people spend their money. In that aspect of the business, nobody will criticize him for "trying too hard," and he doesn't have to worry as much about what people think of him personally. I don't know why he hasn't gotten that yet — maybe marketing people are still seen as kind of tertiary in that field in '63?
#68 Emily – that is a cute comparison of MM and The Office – thanks for sharing OT or not.
I notice how everyone has looked over one obvious thing. Pete is short. Ken is tall. Short people are often derided in the workplace, even to their face, and treated as though they were childish, regardless of how much effort they put forward. Research has shown that taller men get more money, more women, and just plain more respect.
Many people have equated Pete with Kennedy which I've never really understood.
One of the reasons Ken got the job is because he is apolictical. He is friendly, easy going and doesn't get overly involved in office politics. In short, he's everything Pete is not. That why Ken got the job, not Pete.
#55 Deb, I know!
I look at the finale and it feels like my workload.
Matt: you know that we believe in you more than we believe in our own kids. But how much of this do you think you're going to get done?
What I would not recommend: trying to pull a deus ex Mencken, or something. Or a similar mundane-TV cliffhanger. Kenny gets married! Roger dies! Peggy is pregnant … again!
Not to say I wouldn't keep watching, if one of these things happened. The writers could script a UFO landing on the Empire State Building and I'd still tune in to see what you did with it. This is all just that good.
I'm just saying: so far this season we're down one grandpa, a foot, an au pair, a damned good office manager, and the best commercial director I ever saw. The housekeeper is barely hanging in there, I haven't seen the elevator guy in weeks, and still we're stuck with a rapist doctor, a worthless governor's aide and a secretary who can't handle machinery (office or any other kind). And I get this feeling the woods are full of ferals.
Yes, your numbers are great, billings are good, no one wants to work with anyone else. I'd follow you anywhere. I just think you might want to refrigerate some of these things you've got on the boil.
Or at the very least, let us help you. Have the worhless governor's aide run someone over with his car while escaping from a tryst. Late at night. On a dark road …
Did I say that?
Well I miss Sal – looking at the pictures from Out of Town – not only does he look great in his clothes – I surmise that no one drags on a ciggie as elegantly as he does.
Neither Bert Peterson or Duck Phillips took clients away from SC when they left.
What makes you thing Pete can take a bunch of them away?
Do we know that for certain?
I didn't have a problem with Pete and Trudy staying home to watch the media coverage of the assassination. Obviously, it meant more to them that attending Margaret Sterling's wedding. I don't feel there was anything wrong with that. Despite Pete's disappointment in losing to Ken, he was not going to avoid the wedding . . . until the news of the assassination was released.
a worthless governor’s aide
What worthless governor's aide?
Bertram Cooper Haiku
"Client! Who's your pimp?"
His time is now; Ken is Zen,
so bye bye Petey.
When Pete talked to Trudy about his meeting with Pyrce, his explanations to her were hilarious: he's too good to his clients. he head of something of something. he got fired, but not exactly.
Pete was nursing his grudge along with that high ball. The assassination became Pete's "holier-than-thou" moment that allowed him to move his anger at being told he's not good enough to being better than his co-workers.
He saved face with that fatal shot. And made it possible to think about taking clients from S-C.
I hope it's true that Pryce is trying to sabotage a sale.
esme — Lane as saboteur works for me.
He unilaterally refused to hire Don's art director and he promoted the easy-going Ken over the ambitious Pete. He's stirring the pot.
I keep squawking like the Raven, "River Kwai, River Kwai".
(If the Raven was obsessed with old movies that is.)
Ok …
So I was reading (and enjoying) the threads and it hit me. This is all about …….. a Television Show!
The Characters are not real…. they are written (and acted)
The walls and buildings are not real … it's a set.
So what is it about this particular show that has me talking with friends, family (and you guys as well) and building a much better relationship with my daughter? I have been thinking of several books that drew me in and I realized that this show is literature. Its Shakespeare and Turgenev mixed in with a little Otto Preminger. I enjoy Mad Men as much as I enjoy reading O'Brian or Patterson.
I am happy to say that I have the opportunity to sit back, enjoy, and reflect on a quality production like Mad Men.
"where did Ken go to college?"
Ken Cosgrove graduated from NYU.
That's what the little author's blurb in the Atlantic said at the start of his story. It was shown in a close up.
Oops. Ken went to Columbia.
My bad.
On my way out the door, I second all of CLIFFROBIN.
Anticipating TV soap will only prove disheartening and frustrating.
I try to enjoy each chapter for what it is.
Be well.
Shakespeare's plots were built entirely around conventions that are used today as much in a "low" genre like the soap opera as in a "high" genre like the period drama, so I'm baffled by how some of you are attempting to isolate and elevate Mad Men as being influenced by a "nobler" cultural tradition. It's a despicable act of pure elitism.
Yes, Mad Men is better than most other shows out there, but that's a result of the pooled talents of the people involved with the writing, editing, producing, and acting of the show, not the fact that it's somehow directly influenced by famous Russian playwrights. Most of the people who work onset have never read a line by Turgenev in their lives…
Just because Weiner likes to challenge our expectations doesn't change the fact that Mad Men shares a whole bunch of conventions with "lesser" shows. If you want to watch something that exists outside of story-telling conventions, check out Werner Herzog's documentaries from the 1970s and 1980s.
My money's on Grey buying SC.
BTW, I like the idea of Grey buying Sterling Cooper for many reasons. Don would have to face his worst nightmare of working, under contract, for Duck Philips. Pete would have to continue working with the Sterling Cooper crowd after screwing them over. Peggy and Duck's relationship would soon be exposed. Plus, Rachel Menken moved her business to Grey so there is an opportunity to see Rachel again, possibly at the same time that Don is getting a divorce. If Lane gets to stay and they can figure out a way to get Joan and Sal back, that'd be a great set up for the S4 office.
Maybe the best reason for a Grey merger is that Grey were the company that represented Volkswagon. Meaning they are experimental and progressive in ways that Sterling Cooper are not.
Not disagreeing with your point about Grey buying SC, esme, but the famous VW ads were famously done by DDB not Grey.
ooops- way too early for me — falafel, not esme.
Oh. Sorry about that. I just googled Grey and it said VW was one of their clients.
Hey Red Medicine,
I see what you are saying! …. sound insights!
The market research job could turn out well for Pete. A loong time ago I was an Assistant AE at Hill, Holliday (now part of Omnicom) in Boston. Our head of market research was a fascinating, debonair man named Jack Sansolo. Long after I left, he became President. Market research, segmenting, targeting has become as important as the creative work. But in 1963, it wouldn't have seemed that way, as advertising was more the advertiser telling you what to do or think.
What makes you thing Pete can take a bunch of them away?
I think people are underestimating Pete’s ability to take his clients with him. I can think of a number of Pete’s clients he could easily persuade.
- Bethleham Steel. Pete already got this client to side with his copy over Don’s copy in S1.
- North American Aviation. Pete secured this account on his own when he was left in California. Since they are based in the West, Pete is probably the only one at Sterling Cooper this client has any relationship with.
- Utz. They are already upset with Sterling Cooper for exposing Mrs Utz to Jimmy Barrett. Their account was switched from Ken to Pete for this reason.
- Jai Alai. Since Hoho only came to Sterling Cooper because he and Pete were old school friends, he’ll take Pete’s advice.
Those are four big accounts just for starters. And of course if Pete managed to get Lucky Strike then he’ll have buried Sterling Cooper on that account alone. I don’t know if Pete will get that one though, because Roger seems to have stronger ties with the Garners.
“Just because Weiner likes to challenge our expectations doesn’t change the fact that Mad Men shares a whole bunch of conventions with “lesser†shows.â€
The show does share the conventions of other television shows; it has to, because it is a television show. The medium is the medium. But the content is layered with references to “bunches†of cultural expression and media other than TV. I don’t watch a lot of network product; maybe there’ve been pertinent and expansive hints at the ideas expressed in La Notte, The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit, or Frank O’Hara’s poetry in last season’s CSI: Topeka, I’ve just missed them; that would be my loss.
The possible fact that not all the actors or grips may have ever read A Midsummer’s Night Dream or Turgenev is irrelevant. I haven’t read them either. But some of the writers obviously have. And by including those references we, the audience, have starting points that we can use if we choose to enhance and expand our understanding of many other interesting things. This isn’t a bug, it’s a feature to be enjoyed.
I share your disdain for the “Elitesâ€. Let’s round them up and burn them and all their books and magazines and DVDs and such. If I run into one around here, I’ll send him or her to the flogging pit immediately.
And I’ll counter your “It’s a despicable act of pure elitism.†with “ It’s hyperbolic act of overheated rhetoric.â€
Otherwise, have a nice day!
execution is everything.
King Lear is a version of the Cinderella folktale (which shares features of Chinese tales about foot bound beauties. the story existed long before Perrault wrote it down for the aristrocrats. In older versions, Cinderella has her stepsisters dance until they drop dead.
Shakespeare and Disney draw from the same sources. But the stories they tell are very different. While it's possible to look at Disney's Cinderella as a type of "Lear story," they really don't bear comparison because one has characters that have been stripped of complexity while the other deals with the raving of a lost soul.
#87 DRush76 – in case no one answered your question, Henry is the worthless governor's aide.
On Pete and Ken – Because Pete's gun was so prominently shown in the last episode, then he lost the promotion, then Kennedy was killed, etc., etc., does anyone think the finale might be the episode when Pete finally snaps and repeats that eerie performance when he waved the gun around the office? Pure speculation, but maybe Ken gets written out trying to be a hero, if he's not, in fact, Pete's target. Don't need a back story for a character who's not going to be around long.
Many here seem to be betting on suicide, accidental or otherwise, as the season ending cliffhanger. I'm not in that camp and don't think it's going to be Betty, despite the "Bye, Bye Birdie" thing. I think that's more of a marital reference.
such elitism. Personally, I found the king to be quite a complex character and I don't remember Cinderella going all psycho or nothing.
And you have a typo, I think you meant "sole."
She gets the shoe back in the end you know.
lom – please, have the prime rib AND the filet of sole.
esme – how are the sweetbreads?
Pete seems pretty visionary about where other industries need to go & how they need to be perceived, but not so much his own industry (marketing FAIL). He's also incredibly high maintenance & needy (which only seems permissible in established management — in my experience — where few folks are valued for their, um, common touch & don't usually have seamless people skills). Ken's a work horse. A non-threatening work horse. He's gonna do what you tell him to do, competently and cheerfully, without asking any annoying questions; he's going to keep his customers happy; and he's going to let upper management run the company & be in charge of the future (again, in my experience, this is an equation for success). But Pete's sort of ambition, acumen, sense of entitlement, and authority-worship (pre-Kennedy assassination) is ALSO a recipe for success, just not at Sterling Cooper today.
# 106. No. I think it would be the worst writing imaginable if Pete who has just spent several days angry and upset over Kennedy's public murder and even Oswalds public murder, then went out and commited public murder himself. It's illogical.
esme and less of me,
I think I finally know who you are. And I believe that I gave explicit instructions to have you both killed. Must I do everything myself around here?!?
(sigh) … enjoy the remainder of the play, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. If you hear anything in the fifth act, please don't turn around. It's nothing.
Trust me.
Your faithful schoolmate,
Prince Hamlet of Denmark
Cultural references aren't meaning, although apparently lots of people think they are. They are shortcuts, only understandable by the few who are "in the know." If the underlying story and characters are not compelling, and/or if the writers are relying on the references to make important points, then it's elitism. And ineffective.
During that scene where Betty sees both Don & Henry in the same shot, my husband said, "man, sometimes it's just like watching Falcon Crest." Yes, it's a soap opera, so is Hamlet for crissakes. But so what? It's a damn good soap opera, with all the trappings of great literature. Everyone wins.
#114 Donny Brook,
I never watched Falcon Crest. But I bet I would have, if I knew they were going to kill almost everyone in the cast in the last scene of a single episode.
(Sorry for the Hamlet spoiler.)
Soap operas are timid. Shakespeare had both the benefit of luscious language, and a huge set of balls.
(The Bard would leave his sack at the threshold I think.)
Ooooo!! Ooooo! Miss AB, Miss AB!! I wanna be Guilderberger. I wanna be Guilderberger. Isn't that the one Mr.Orange played in the movie. Or was that Vlad the Impaler?? or Lee Frickin' Harvey Oswald. I'm kinda confused. Got real light-headed, jumped . .up.. . too faaassst . .
(Swoooon to sofa stage left)
Must I die every time?? where is it writ? er. . .oh yeah.
Ixnay on the Amlet-hay, Ye could be tagged elitist-ay and dragged to the pillory.
Seriously, you just gave me another movie to throw in the "See again before the Big Sleep" queue, Anne B. Do you get residuals on this cultural deja vu stuff?
#115 "Hamlet spoiler"? Now who's being elitist?
So, you're saying that killing off the whole cast would be a good thing? Maybe you're just quoting Rosencranz and Guildenstern like a Python addict, I dunno. It's been years since I saw that one.
Donny Brook,
When I was 20 I watched a soap opera between classes. (When I could.) Then I made a wonderful, terrible decision: I would take my savings and do a semester abroad. I made this choice at the precise moment the soap-opera guy and girl I'd been following for months were going to make, you know. Sweet commercial interruptions.
They'd had their first kiss not two weeks before I stepped on the plane. I thought, What rotten luck! Awful timing! It'll be all over when I get back!
But I went, had a wonderful time — everybody does — and ended up extending the trip. (Another thing everybody does.) I stayed an extra month. And in the week I was back in Los Angeles full-time, I turned on the TV to find … that the soap opera girl and guy were still chatting over coffee. Not even close to, you know. Dessert.
I say again: soap operas are timid. They take forever to get to the point; they make everyone in the apartment complex around the pool have affairs only with each other; they force the guy with the revelation to back off from it, and say that it was all just a dream.
I watch Mad Men because it has the courage of its convictions. Even when those convictions make me uncomfortable, I love the courage.
Oh, and I brought up Rosencrantz and Guildenstern because it was funny, and less of me and esme are a riot. It totally fit.
I love this blog.
(#118 )
Maybe soap operas are "timid" and "take forever to get to the point" because : a) they're courting a different audience, one whose living situation allows them the time to follow these lengthy plotlines b) said audience hasn't had the chances to EXPERIENCE what great acting/writing in television "looks" like c) they don't cost over a million dollars per episode to produce and aren't enmeshed into an elitist web of high cultural expectations
Obviously, no one HERE is going to mistake Days of Our Lives for Mad Men, but people who haven't had the opportunity to "learn" discourses of what good TV should do aren't always going to be able to know that. Sure, they might be bored by the repetitiveness of the story-lines, but they may not necessarily associate that to the "trappings of cheap daytime dramas" like people here are wont to do.
And when you consider the fact that the DoOL franchise has been going on since 1965 and spawned over 11,000 episodes, you see that it obviously is speaking to a certain public.
Let's imagine that AMC decides to continue producing Mad Men for decades after Weiner is through with it. Do you honesty think it wouldn't eventually fall into redundancy and predictability, even if the main characters continued to be replaced? Producing a TV show is always a collaborative process, it takes time, effort, and cash to make it great. You can't just pull off a great moment in the way a writer thinks of a great sentence and writes it down "permanently"; the actors have to rehearse that moment, and then it must be filmed and edited within various time and budget constraints.
Finally, let's not forget that Weiner and his crew have just 13 episodes per year to give us; the Days of Our Lives team is producing 13 episodes in less than a MONTH! How "good" can the material be?
#118 I wasn't comparing it to Days of Our Lives, but to Falcon Crest, a nighttime prime time soap. They are slightly different animals. And yes, I do believe that after 3 years of "will they or won't they" regarding the Draper marriage, MM qualifies. If they get back together again this year, I will be severly disappointed.
Don and Betty wouldn't "get back together" because as far as we know they still are together. Maybe (hopefully) Betty will move forward with a separation, but if she stays with Don I wouldn't be surprised either. There are enough obstacles in her path to keep her from actually leaving. She tried once this season, but ended up returning home. I don't see it as a "will they or won't they" soap type of storyline at all. To me, it just seems real. Especially in their circle, in that time period.
#114- Donny Brook– I just tried to make a point up above that the cultural references are stepping off points, like the "Easter eggs", in computer games where we can find extra goodies if we want them. I don't feel we have to find them all to play and enjoy the game so to speak. I don't think MW relies on them to any major degree to tell an effective, fun story.
And I have to, respectfully, but completely disagree with any use of the term soap opera, (oops, I just see Anne B shakes the other appropriate but boring end of the proverbial snake) it's just not melodramatic enough to qualify for that label. The plotlines are really very realistic and everyday human. The psychology is developed in real time. There is little over-cooked ludicrous plot-twisting. It doesn't come near the soaper high bar to qualify to me.
"and/or if the writers are relying on the references to make important points, then it’s elitism. And ineffective
If they were relying on the extras, (I don't think they are) I would thoroughly agree that it would be bad, ineffective writing. But in any event, I just don't understand the "elitism" label be used at all. Even if the whole show was constructed of educated inside jokes, I fail to get how understanding the jokes would be "elitist". There's no force or coercion being used to make anyone have to appreciate any of it. It's all accessible to us all with a little work and some friends' opinions and observations.
That's why I'm behaving like a lunatic with the word and the concept. I just do not see how it applies. On lunch break I'll gazoogle around and try to find a definition to enlighten me. I will keep everyone posted. Unlike the WashPost, I love making retractions. Ask the narcissist Anne B. ha,ha.
Lunchtime.
The narcissist Anne B grandly AGREES.
I think, less of me, that this is the first time I've seen a writer offer a retration before having anything to retract. You will notice that I almost never retract a thing. I am the Fox News of this blog: I might be wrong but darn it, I'm sure!
Please don't take me as the enemy of soaps, all. They are so mockable. What was the one that put the female character (was her name Marlena?) in the cave or elevator shaft or whatever, for weeks?
We kept seeing the ads for that on Must See TV. It was awesome.
Narcissa, this is Macadamia. Thanks.
"On advice from counsel (see above#125), LOM has decided not to offer a retraction with regard to earlier comments concerning the use of terms soap opera and elitism, and since LOM is logging off LOM will not be able to explain this decision at this time."
No offense given or taken I trust. Have a cool day. I hope to be lurking later, keep it lively but do not shoot my pigeons please.
@122 Red Medicine — Can everyone agree that if it weren’t for Weiner’s skillful writing and the acting skills of Jon Hamm and January Jones, this particular element of the show would get TRASHED?
I guess yes. But the question is a little like asking Mary Todd Lincoln: "Well, other than THAT, how'd you like the play?"
I agree with #121. Perhaps my gut-feeling that Betty will die is a subconscious wish on my part for the conclusion of this somewhat redundant quality to Don and Betty’s troubled marriage.
Can everyone agree that if it weren’t for Weiner’s skillful writing and the acting skills of Jon Hamm and January Jones, this particular element of the show would get TRASHED? (It already has been, in some instances.)
over-cooked ludicrous plot-twisting
So, ending the first two seasons with unwanted pregnancies (one by a married man with someone not his wife) isn't enough for you?
I agree that MM does this very convincingly and very well, but dude, it's a soap. and I'm ok with that.
For what it's worth, I think that even a gritty show like The Wire featured numerous "soap opera" elements, like McNulty's dealings with his kids, and Shakima Greggs' romantic life.
well, I go off somewhere for a while and miss all the action.
l-o-m- you also get to be Sid Vicious. I'm proud of you, Honey Bunny. Or wait, is that supposed to be Pumpkin. hmmm. also Orange. coincidence?
at least I don't have to be that one that gets herself to a nunnery and then body surfs to that great gig in the sky.
esme,
At least Ophelia gets a few good lines out before she goes.
BTW, I love you.
smooches, anne b.
here's one for all the nutters. a little twangin' tom o' bedlam.
Speaking of nuts, I shall share a personal story.
I used to be able to name every nut that there was. And it used to drive my mother crazy, because she used to say, "More of Me, (I was younger then, it was true) if you don't stop naming nuts," and the joke was that we lived in Pine Nut, and I think that's what put it in my mind at that point. So she would hear me in the other room, and she'd just start yelling. I'd say, "Peanut. Hazelnut. Cashew nut. Macadamia nut." That was the one that would send her into going crazy. She'd say, "Would you stop naming nuts!" And my bloodhound Hubert used to be able to make this sound, he couldn't talk, but he'd go "rrrawr rrawr" and that sounded like Macadamia nut. Pine nut, which is a nut, but it's also the name of a town. Pistachio nut. Red pistachio nut. Natural, all natural white pistachio nut, etc.
Well I forgot the point.
I came back to attain satori and to be entertained, not necessarily in that order. Where for art Thou?
Have the sudden urge to watch Fred Willard MC a dog show.
Woof! Foiled!
Congratulate Ms. Darkly, she has uncloaked Rosenstern this time!
Buck Laughlin: Am I nuts? Something's wrong with his feet.
Trevor Beckwith: I never thought I'd find myself saying this, but you're right.
Buck Laughlin: He's got two left feet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAI3u8f2iRs
Well played.
Hoist upon my own petard up there @128 and it is as uncomfortable as it sounds, so here I forge once more into the void. Compare and contrast:
Mad Men ends not one but two, two I tells ya, seasons with unwanted pregnancies of different characters,
AND then read this small paragraph about part of the plot involving just John and Marlena from Days of Our Lives;
In 1991, Hall returned to Days of our Lives, and returned to her role as Dr. Marlena Evans. It was revealed that Marlena's supposed death in the plane crash was not true and Marlena had spent the previous four years in a coma. Soon afterwards, Wayne Northrop, the original portrayer of Roman Brady also returned to the show. In a stunning turn of events, Drake Hogestyn remained on the show through a piece of storytelling that revealed that his character was an impostor programmed with the memories of the real Roman Brady, and was a dangerous assassin. As a result, the fake Roman reverted to the name John Black. While Marlena attempted to reconcile with the real Roman, she and John could not deny their mutual attraction, and eventually the two had an affair that produced their daughter Belle, and led to Marlena and Roman's divorce.
We disagree I guess.
(Excuse my snark, I'm a might prickly in the morn.)
“Waiter, check please.â€
#133: Speaking of nuts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP5-qJSzDUg
…just another omnivorous media fan here. Once a fan of a "turgid supernatural soap opera"–and I've also attended many a local Shakespeare production. I mean–they've made movies of his stuff! They show them on TV!
Apparently I do need to brush up on my Turgenev. According to Wikipedia, his father was a chronic philanderer & his mother an heiress with an unhappy childhood who suffered in her marriage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Turgenev
esme I imagined this was us in a parallel universe.
"We met at Starbucks. Not at the same Starbucks but we saw each other at different Starbucks across the street from each other."
I think not_Bridget rhymes with Gidget.
There are no coincidences.
speaking of…
House of Yes (i said yes i will yes.)
there ARE coincidences.
l-o-m – Cookie said it was really nice to see you again when she was in PA.