As Above, So Below
In the occult, the phrase “As above, so below” means that large things correspond to small things; the ways of the universe correspond to the ways of the individual, and vice versa. The phrase is symbolized in the tarot card of The Magician; he points above and below, and on his table are the four tools of the tarot (wand, pentacle, cup, sword): These small things are symbols of the four elements that comprise all of reality, and so the table below corresponds to the universe above. (The entire phrase is “As above, so below. As the universe, so the soul.”)
| Writers have the trick of the Magician. Or they should. Matt Weiner does. Large events are small events, historical context is only meaningful if seen in the lives of individuals, and individuals are illuminated by historical context.
In other words, the Kennedy assassination is about the Draper marriage, and Pete’s demotion, and Peggy’s affair, and these things are about the assassination. It’s not belittling the event, it’s reflection, juxtaposition, and the work of the Magician. I don’t know what all of it means. I can’t draw all the lines on the chart. But I do know that “the end of the world” is being played out on the big stage and the small ones, in the public eye and in the bedroom, and we are meant to make this connection. In fact, we don’t even have to understand it; it’s enough, as Ken says when seeing the Rothko, to feel it. |
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Part of what Brett Johnson and Matt Weiner did so right with The Grownups was to let people be exactly as they are. Have you ever, ever heard people reminisce about back-biting gossip on November 22, 1963? Of course not! And yet, of course, it happened. People are themselves. Life goes on, weddings happen (and funerals and births, as Joan points out), but everything feels different.
Pete is spoiled and gossipy and superior, and Trudy thinks about what’s correct and stands by him. Peggy is smothered by her mother and using work (and a work-infused romance) to escape. Betty is overwrought and can’t cope and ignores her children. Don pours on the denial as fast as he can. Joan copes. Harry plods. Duck is inappropriate. Roger serves as MC. Bert hangs back. Every single person is exactly true to their own character, and their experience of the national tragedy is exactly right. Only Carla slips the mask, and that’s right too.
Pete interests me so much this week. Despite his Secor Laxative prank, I suspect he voted for Kennedy. He wasn’t interested in watching election returns at the office party, he likened Kennedy to Elvis, and his ideas seem increasingly progressive (at least the kind of pseudo-progressive that can read Ebony and hope for change while still being a misogynist willing to extort sex). His experience of both national tragedy and personal defeat is complex; childish yet insightful, pouty yet clear-minded. Trudy listens, strategizes, feels deeply but doesn’t put her feelings first, and takes off her sixties matchy-matchy shoes.
What does Betty experience? Perhaps merely Don’s failure to make everything all right. She kissed him and felt nothing. She thinks that means she doesn’t love him. Don thinks his cheating doesn’t hurt his marriage, and he’s wrong. Betty thinks a kiss should be magical or else her marriage is loveless, and she’s wrong. Dear Gods, these are two people with not a clue about marriage. Several commenters faulted Don for patronizing Betty, but she is still fundamentally the woman, the grown woman, who berated her father for not treating her like his “little girl.”
Ironically, and pointedly, Don was more honest with his children than he was with Betty. “We’ll be sad” he says to his kids. That’s true. Later, he lies to Sally, but by then, he is out of resources.
Roger’s performance at his daughter’s wedding is very similar to his performance at the end of The Color Blue. Roger is at his finest when insincerity is called for. He knows exactly how honest to be in order to make it work every bit as well as a lie. The honesty was kind of stunning, wasn’t it? There’s few guests and no waiters. Mona wants to kill Margaret but she’s awesome, and Jane isn’t. This is a disaster but have a good time anyway. Without that level of honesty, no one could have relaxed, or danced, or had any kind of a good time at all. He saved the day. And make no mistake, the honesty here was as calculated as the dishonest praise of Don at the banquet; Roger just knows how to give the right speech at the right time.
And later, he knows to call the only other person who continues to cope no matter what; who sees things clearly and can be honest but doesn’t have to be (unlike the Drapers, who are never really open, or the Campbells, who can’t restrain the blurting).
As above, so below. As the nation changes and yet does not change, so the individuals change, and yet do not change.
Basket of Kisses: The unofficial blog of AMC's Mad Men. Where all the cool kids meet & greet to talk about Don Draper, Janie Bryant, Christina Hendricks, Jon Hamm, Matthew Weiner, & subtexty things.
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November 3rd, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Thank you – this is terrific.
November 3rd, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Love your blog. You are spot-on about Roger:
"Roger is at his finest when insincerity is called for. He knows exactly how honest to be in order to make it work every bit as well as a lie."
You pinpointed what I couldn't put my finger on; why I suddenly liked him again in this episode (and possibly the last one). This is why we love Roger so much, and he hasn't had a lot of chances to do this lately.
November 3rd, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Deborah, I keep going back to Anna's tarot reading in The Mountain King, but I have no background or knowledge of the tarot.
I'm interested in how you think it's playing out, and where it might go from here. 'Judgment' and 'The End of The World' certainly seem apropos to this episode, and indeed the whole season. I'd love your insights into the rest of Anna's reading for Don.
(paraphrasing what she told him) "You learn things." and "You are part of everything… the air, the sea.."
Hope you can indulge me….
November 3rd, 2009 at 1:00 pm
You are so right Deborah, and in many ways it's just the old adage, about which Don is somewhat correct, that life goes on, whether we want it to or not. It can be funny – like when I found my sister, on the morning of her wedding, paying her car insurance bill at the kitchen table, veil and all. Just because it's a "big day" for you does not mean the universe stops expanding or the planet stops spinning, even when someone dies (and haven't we all felt that weird sense that life cannot go on when we are personally grieving).
I love the fact that MW & company showed us the MM characters just the way we'd always found them, but reacting generally to this horrifying news. Of course Betty, who had already gone through the emotional and hormonal ups and downs of losing her father, having a baby and discovering her husband's deceit is going to lose it when she hears – she's already a bit of a wreck. Joan, on the other hand, is making do with a bad situation, and continues to do that even as the world ends, just as she did during the Cuban Missle Crisis – and Peggy stayed at work for much of that too, IIRC.
Having Betty react to Oswald's shooting was, IMHO, brilliant, because she was the character most likely to lose it at that moment. It reminded me a lot of a History Channel documentary, aired in the last couple of years, called 102 Minutes that Changed America and included both professional and amateur video footage shot in NYC on 9/11 with no narrative, just the TVs and radios in the background providing commentary. The filmmakers chose to concentrate on a couple of NYU students for the pivotal moment when the second plane hit – two college seniors who were a bit perplexed by what they were seeing (they were awakened in their dorm room by the first plane, so did not see it). As they analyzed the view from their window, and tried to determine whether there were actually people jumping – at least one of them seemed in denial about it – the second plane hit off-camera. The blood-curdling screams and panic of these two young women were horrifying to behold, but said so much about the loss of innocence for all Americans at that point – there was no longer any doubt we were under attack. Betty on the couch serves the same purpose – her life is already falling apart, so she can more readily comprehend that chaos is erupting in the larger world as well.
November 3rd, 2009 at 1:05 pm
gypsy, I did like 5,000 words on that reading. Put "tarot" in the search box.
November 3rd, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Deborah- this is awesome! I like reading about the tarot insights from someone who really KNOWS the tarot. It really blows me away, especially knowing MW is into tarot too.
On a different note, I know last week we discussed Roger's "The One." I commented on the fact that I disagreed with those that thought Joan was, when in fact, I thought Roger believed it was indeed, Jane. You agreed.
After this week's episode, do you have a different take? Roger seemed so …weary…of Jane. And someone else posted on another thread that during times like this- national disasters, etc…, you call the ones you love. Roger called Joan.
What's your take?
November 3rd, 2009 at 1:09 pm
I'm not sure. I think Roger believes Joan is the one in retrospect. Joan is the one who got away. But he never asked her to marry him at the time.
November 3rd, 2009 at 1:16 pm
#7 DL- Maybe it's where he was in life, in 59. And maybe it's where Joan was, too. I don't think she had any illusions that their relationship should or would be headed that way (marriage.) But hindsight being what it always is, maybe now, years later, they are realizing the comfort, stability, and respect their relationship has. And in a lot of ways, that can define "The One."
November 3rd, 2009 at 1:27 pm
I thought the whole point of "The One" is that there isn't one – the notion's just a fantasy. Annabelle was Roger's "The One" back when she dumped him; now, years later, with other lovers and wives in his present and past, Roger has matured. Annabelle just lost her husband, so she's taking a delusional trip down memory lane and trying to fit Roger into a place that will make it all right. It's a silly dream, and Roger understands that and was trying to wake her up.
I love your posts about Tarot, Deb. But to me the card that sums up the Kennedy assassination would be the Tower. Thoughts?
November 3rd, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Fascinating! Love the insights into tarot.
November 3rd, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Amazing post!
I love the way that MW makes things that would seem small on other TV shows seem so HUGE on MM. I think it shows how much depth there is to the characters, in that we care so deeply about what is happening. Some may say that this is the show where nothing happens (at least they did before the lawnmower accident), but week after week it seems like EVERYTHING is happening.
Thanks for this website–it is a welcomed break from law school studying.
November 3rd, 2009 at 2:38 pm
"Pete is spoiled and gossipy and superior, and Trudy thinks about what’s correct and stands by him. Peggy is smothered by her mother and using work (and a work-infused romance) to escape. Betty is overwrought and can’t cope and ignores her children. Don pours on the denial as fast as he can. Joan copes. Harry plods. Duck is inappropriate. Roger serves as MC. Bert hangs back. Every single person is exactly true to their own character, and their experience of the national tragedy is exactly right. Only Carla slips the mask, and that’s right too."
All wonderful. You can add: Jane is bewildered. Henry sees his moment. Sally knows her parents are human.
November 3rd, 2009 at 2:58 pm
DB, I like your thoughts. The post wasn't really about the tarot so much as it used the tarot to illustrate my more abstract thoughts. But of course the assassination is the Tower.
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:17 pm
It occured to me in Season 1 that Pete voted for Kennedy. He seemed genuinely upset & angry about the assassination. He doesn't even go to Margaret's wedding. Sure, he was mad about the demotion, but I think he also stayed home out of about respect to Kennedy.
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Goodness, this makes the episode so much better for me. Thank you Deb! And I totally agree with #12 Brenda additions. Everyone was perfectly characterized.
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:29 pm
It seems like everything is both different and the same every time something shakes up the MM world. In the direct aftermath of 11/22/63, it's logical that they still remain the way they are – but as post-Kennedy America now begins, it truly cannot stay that way much longer.
Don's traditional method of crisis management is officially outdated in this new world, both at home and in society. Roger put up the best front, but as Joan pointed out, it's hard for him to thrive when there's no laughing matter involved – and the latest SC sale will be nothing to joke about either. Pete and Betty are both headed for some kind of life-changing event next week, and Peggy is likely due for a huge shakeup – but she's a bit more battle tested than a lot of her cohorts.
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:38 pm
My first thought on reading Deborah’s first paragraph was “allegory,†in that symbolic fictional figures (MM characters and their plots/“small†events) express larger truths about human existence (historically memorable events and people’s reactions). I haven’t always thought MM has been successful with this, in the sepia-toned Depression-era and the nymph Suzanne bits. I got annoyed with the weekly Dallas reference and wondered why we needed a weekly Roman reference as well. Is it as simple as the end of an era – the fall of the Roman Empire imports the end of Kennedy/Camelot? That history brings tragedy and yet life goes on? If so, I don’t think MM will make us wait 1500 years for a renaissance (Season 4 = SterlingCoo new ownership = the Borgias/Machiavelli … daVinci/ Michelangelo).
Everything feels different through the prism of grief, yet as Deborah says the MM characters’ responses are true to their nature. Don retreats into his AdMan persona (receding underwater) even though recently we finally saw his grief about his brother. For now, Peggy observes. Joan had already expressed her grief (vase smashing) and is calm upon Roger’s phone call. Also Mona has already experienced her grief over her divorce and is calm during the wedding crisis.
Two characters shift – two that are less popular with viewers. Betty’s world’s has been turned upside down by her husband’s confession, yet being Nordic she suppresses rage, shock, disappointment, etc. until the country has been turned upside down too – a big wave lifts all boats. Pete’s world has also changed for the worse and he too finds an outlet for his feelings, but a safer one. I think their masks slipped at home. Two characters, once allies, now at odds, are shifting more slowly, Don as he has confessed Dick and Roger as he realizes the limitations of his new marriage. They try to keep their masks on.
Aside: Will next season show characters’ increasing awareness about what we now refer to the Civil Rights Struggle? For anyone interested in that era, I recommend the memoir Coming of Age by Anne Moody, who vividly recaptures life during the 1950s and early 1960s (including thoughts on that day in Dallas) that we MMers divine only glimpses of from Hollis and Carla and Sheila.
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:50 pm
I do like the idea of Weiner as The Magician. That totally fits, including the inflated sense of his own power. How many times have we heard posters coming up with completely different interpretations than intended? (Even the color symbolism!) The Magician can point, but only in two directions, not everywhere at once. He thinks in in control of his magic, but it is bigger than even he imagines.
November 3rd, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Deborah says:
"I’m not sure. I think Roger believes Joan is the one in retrospect. Joan is the one who got away. But he never asked her to marry him at the time."
Maybe Roger always knew Joan was "the one." But he also knew that Joan would never become his wife in this "tawdry" way. Any future for them as a married couple was doomed — Joan wanted respectability (and, likely, children), and she wouldn't have it by being seen as a homewrecker, no matter what Roger said to the folks at Sterling Cooper (and the country club, etc.) It would have been embarrassing and unthinkable for Joanie. In that way, she had class and smarts. And Roger knew it.
And… Joan can look at Jane and see a child who has neither class nor smarts. Nor respectability.
And I wonder if Roger is waking up to that. And what he might do about it, if anything. Or maybe Jane will make the first move…
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:11 pm
I am enjoying this discussion very much.
Claude Levi-Strauss died Friday at age 100 and his death was announced today. If you have a few minutes, read the NY Times obituary or listen to the oral obituary on NPR. What his life work gave to our understanding of culture is very pertinent to this thread.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:11 pm
"What does Betty experience? Perhaps merely Don’s failure to make everything all right. She kissed him and felt nothing. She thinks that means she doesn’t love him. Don thinks his cheating doesn’t hurt his marriage, and he’s wrong. Betty thinks a kiss should be magical or else her marriage is loveless, and she’s wrong. Dear Gods, these are two people with not a clue about marriage. Several commenters faulted Don for patronizing Betty, but she is still fundamentally the woman, the grown woman, who berated her father for not treating her like his “little girl.â€
What if Betty is no longer that woman who had berated her father for not treating her as his "little girl"? What is she no longer wants or loves Don? Have you consider that? Why are fans so determined not to acknowledge that Betty is growing?
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:18 pm
And… Joan can look at Jane and see a child who has neither class nor smarts. Nor respectability.
Joan was probably seeing herself as she was, a decade ago. And she has retained some of her old childishness, unfortunately.
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:24 pm
I still believe that timing is what killed Joan/Roger's affair: his heart attack sent him back to the bosom of his family to recuperate.
Joan was warned away from a man "too old" for her by Bert Cooper.
While Roger recuperated Joan met Greg, her trophy doctor.
Roger comes back Joan is on her way to an engagement, Roger shifts a vowel or two to Jane.
They obviously still feel affection for each other, especially in comparison to the spouses who fall short.
But as they say, timing is (was) everything.
November 4th, 2009 at 12:44 am
Awesome insight Deb. I didn’t catch it but you are right on target about each character being exactly who they are in The Grownups. We don’t see a whole lot of any one character this week which of itself is appropriate since the dominant “character†is the fatherly newsman or better yet, the television itself.
Roger is the essence of Roger (when at his best). Peggy is at work, Duck is the shifty fellow he is at heart, Jane the child. Pete is disappointed and Trudy is the Pete booster there to pick him back up.
Betty is in search of her father again and Don is the essence of himself trapped and shifting between Dick Whitman and Don Draper with a few heartfelt fatherly moments. The most balanced and human are Joan who holds it together no matter how big the crisis and Carla who as you say “slips the mask†but does so appropriately precisely because she is fully balanced and human. There is plenty of shock and mourning but of course Don isn’t mourning President Kennedy. His life is irretrievably changed.
I think Heraclitus says it pretty well “your character is your fate.â€
Donnybrook is also right on target. MW and his team are magicians and fine storytellers creating more meaning than was even intended.
November 4th, 2009 at 2:54 am
Am I wrong in thinking it is obvious that Betty's outrage at the revelation of Don's real identity is nothing other than the release of her repressed anger at his infidelity? Essentially, it is the breach of a contract she had perceived in the marriage: his affairs were the price she had to accept as long as Don could provide the storybook life she thought she wanted (or was supposed to want). But when that life itself was revealed to be a lie (though a lie "Don" never really had much choice in), the weight of the infidelities struck with full force because the offsetting benefit was proven hollow.
Now because she has been forced outside of her marriage to find herself, Betty is mimicking Don's betrayals (count me among those who don't see a future of any kind for Betty and Henry) and has convinced herself — has she really? — that she no longer loves Don. Meanwhile, Don has been confronted with the possibility of the penultimate loss: not just of family but of identity itself, reminded of his love for betty, and we can only assume has an opportunity for a fresh start if he is given a second chance. But would a chastened, tame Don Draper be of interest to Betty?
Draper throughout his unrestrained years in my view operated in a kind of dual-dimensional psychological world out of Kafka or other literature of the time being depicted. This is fairly obvious given the backstory presented for him. In his unfaithful sex life, I saw not callous disregard for his wife and family, but rather a near-dissociative belief that his behavior when he is in a place not tightly tied to the identity bound up in his name (home or work) simply was not taking place in the same world as those places. Greenwich Village was portrayed in season one as a parallel universe, but when Roger cavorts with a client's twin daughters in the Sterling Cooper offices (scene of many dalliances), Draper demures. This disassociation combined with the prevailing cultural norm of the world he inhabited (adultery may be "wrong," but a real man doesn't settle for just one), dismantled just about every external check on his behavior. But now he has had a powerful jolt that could provide that check going forward. But will an inhibited Don Draper be any more than Dick Whitman pretending to be someone else?
November 4th, 2009 at 4:39 am
Great insights here
This may be off topic but I am still trying to figure out Betty. 7/22 she is chastizing Don for not signing his contract "don't you know where you will be in 3 years?" Now 11/25 she proclaims she doesn't love Don anymore and she is tempted to leave the marriage and go with Henry Gere.
November 4th, 2009 at 4:58 am
And the bride says, "It's all ruined."
And Betty berates Don for "ruining all of this."
Pete's career plans are "ruined."
And the country mourns the death of Camelot.
So true: As above, so below.
Everyone who thought they had some kind of control over life got a dose of reality this week, didn't they?
On a side note, I wonder if the whole Pete-Trudy love fest isn't a set up for a possible major crash when/if Trudy finds out about Pete's baby? Just wondering.
November 4th, 2009 at 5:31 am
On a side note, I wonder if the whole Pete-Trudy love fest isn’t a set up for a possible major crash when/if Trudy finds out about Pete’s baby? Just wondering.
I think that Peggy's baby is to the Campbell's marriage what Adam's box was to the Draper's marriage. The big secret that could destroy everything. The thing is the Draper secret came out when their marriage was already so weakened where as Pete/Trudy are now growing closer and stronger than ever before. But 'babies' are such a sensitive spot for Trudy since she wants them and can't have them. To learn Pete had a child with another woman might be something even optimistic pollyanna Trudy can't forgive.
November 4th, 2009 at 5:34 am
Since the box revelation, Betty has gone further in her belief that Don may not be the one to make everything alright anymore. I believe the “pressure cooker†Betty of S3 (seeking individual growth and acceptance) combined with the box revelation and now Kennedy account for the Betty we see this week.
Betty has grown of course but in fits and starts. We see an example in the box confrontation scenes. This is not the Betty of S1! As always, Betty is subtle, complex and intelligent but recent events leave her a bit unmoored. Seeking fatherly support in a crisis is a fundamental part of who she is.
This is just one guy’s opinion but I think it’s entirely appropriate that we mostly don’t see “the Betty of growth†in The Grownups but instead the more childlike Betty seeking someone to make everything make sense. The climax of her frustration shown with the shooting of Oswald, “What is going on here!â€
Don used to be able to fill that role (usually, not always) but with the box revelation that is out the window. Don can tell the kids that it is going to be alright but that aint gonna work for Betty right now.
I personally don’t see Betty reaching out to Henry as a deliberate, thoughtful, permanent choice at this point but more of Betty seeking a rock in the storm. This does not cancel her growth as a character but is in keeping with the motif Deb has identified. No character will show significant movement away from their fundamental center for this week’s motif to work and I believe it works very well.
By the way, nice catch on the “ruined†string Delilah – very cool.
November 4th, 2009 at 5:37 am
Why is it that anytime anyone criticizes Betty, someone assumes it's not criticism but sweeping condemnation.
I have a hard time accepting that in November, Betty is no longer the woman she was in June. People change and grow, but "no longer the woman" she was a mere five months ago? Not so much.
November 4th, 2009 at 6:20 am
@ 22 & 23:
Rosie, is that you? Same one-note critique of the show, the characters and the fans.
Me, I'm on suicide watch for next week. (And not just for myself, dreading both the end of the season and another episode filled with soul-crushing despair.)
Gene to Betty: Your kids don't want to watch you commit suicide
Sr Jr League Lady to Betty: Are you suicidal?
Roger to Jane: What, are you going to commit suicide again?
Pete's rifle to all of us: I'm getting impatient!
Can't be good, people.
November 4th, 2009 at 6:37 am
Damn. I've only just picked up on the 'suicide watch' thing. Interesting. If I was going to bet on any character committing suicide in the finale it would be Miss Farrell. Maybe that is just me wanting to see the back of this character, but it would have some awesome consequences. Don having another suicide on his conscience, Farrell's brother having Don's number, the chance of Betty finding out that Don had another affair and that the woman in question topped herself over it. Whoa.
November 4th, 2009 at 6:49 am
Wow Gypsy. I haven’t seen all these references in one place before. Someone earlier mentioned the predominance of the sleeping pills. I think you are on to something but I hope not!
On the characters being exactly who they are thing it works both ways. As Deb points out Roger is a perfect MC at the wedding despite the fact we’ve seen a regressed version of Roger most season (in crisis thems that are growing quit growing and thems that are regressing quit regressing).
Gonna have to hide the sharp objects for Sunday and falafel I agree that Suzanne is high on the watch list.
November 4th, 2009 at 6:53 am
The crazy thing is falafel, I can come up with scenarios in my mind for any number of people who might want to end it all.
Some I'm pretty sure won't because then they won't be there next season — Don, Betty, Pete (although I suppose they could be failed suicide attempts)
Suzanne, brother Danny, Greg — sure, why not. You could make a case they all might have a reason.
Joan – don't think she's the type. She's a survivor, just like Don & Peggy.
Jane- nah. Too easy. And besides, Roger might be relieved.
Well as usual, I'll be completely wrong, and we'll have an upbeat Singin' In The Rain musical finale.
November 4th, 2009 at 7:35 am
I don't see Betty or Pete as suicidal right now. They both seem determined to change their lives, not end their lives. I hope they don't have Don attempting suicide, because I think Don's character needs to be redeemed by being pro-active, not with a cry-for-help to win the sympathy vote. Greg could be suicidal somewhere down the line, but not before he gets posted to Vietnam and we see the consquences of that decision.
So my money would still be on Suzanne. Not only would it affect Don, but poor little Sally would lose another adult that she adored.
November 4th, 2009 at 7:38 am
Maybe they skip ahead a few months and go straight to Beatlemania. I would hate to have them skip it entirely.
November 4th, 2009 at 7:55 am
I've always wanted to see some smart, caring writers make a detailed, thoughtful, compassionate attempt to show the suicide of a major character. Show all the psychology, etc. of the process of deciding to lay one's self down. I can't recall seeing a thorough examination of it on TV before. And I think I watch too much TV at times.
Does anyone have examples where it was done over time and with more detail than for the purpose just moving the bigger plot along? Any TV show or major character that really dug deep into suicide?
Inquiring mind wants to know.
November 4th, 2009 at 8:48 am
@ 28 falafel- I don't think Trudy finding out about Pete's baby would end the marriage. It would cause a major shift, but I don't think she would leave him for good. She already knows that there is nothing wrong with Pete's sperm. I can't remember what was wrong with Trudy that she couldn't convieve, but there was something. I think they might seperate if she found out, but I do believe they would get back together. It's funny, back in season 1 I never thought they would have a good marriage, but it's turning out much better than I ever expected. It has its problems, it's far from perfect, but compared to others on the show, Pete and Trudy are doing just fine.
@ 36 Donny Brook-I don't think they have to show February of 1964 to show Beatlemania. The early part of their career lasted long enough, they could start season 4 in 1965, and still be in the early part of Beatlemania, before they stopped touring.
November 4th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Well Mike, they used pregnancy twice, why not suicide? I really don't know whether it will be a literal suicide or a metaphorical one, but I keep wondering why all the references throughout the season? And at such oddly discordant parts of the conversation. Every time it's in the dialog, it's a little jarring, kind of coming out of nowhere. Like maybe a suicide is going to come out of nowhere.
I also wonder if we'll jump ahead in the next ep to Christmas or sometime months from 11/23/63, leaving us to fill in all the gaps of how we got from here to there. I kind of hate when they do that, but they DO do that and it makes me a little crazy wondering wondering wondering about all the conversations and nuances that must have happened in between. Even the three week gap between the Dick Whitman Sampler and the Sterling Nuptials was a bit disconcerting (How much did Betty try? Did she try to understand and fall back in love, and then was just shut out at every turn, realizing slowly that nothing changed for her and Don. How did Don react in between? So many questions….)
And is it me, or is Peggy getting fat again? Ducklings? Dear lord NOOOO, Pegs! I have to go back and scrutinize the last few eps a little more closely. Maybe it's just bad clothes and bad lighting.
November 4th, 2009 at 8:57 am
Also – I kept trying to get a bead on Ken's date at the wedding – was it Alison?
And where was Peggy? Apparently she didn't bring Duck to the wedding! That could have been a fun scene. (Or is she too low on the totem pole to get invited.)
November 4th, 2009 at 9:05 am
@42 gypsy howell
You got me there.
November 4th, 2009 at 9:59 am
#40 Retrogirl.
It's not just that Trudy would find out Pete had a baby–but that the conception happened just before the wedding. And that he still worked with the mother. However, Pete has one weapon he can use if Trudy threatens to walk–he can say he's changed his mind about adoption.
I'm not talking about Pete Jr–now toddling around his happy home far away. (Maybe Jersey.) But they could contact the adoption agency again to get a brand new baby. A large contribution would help; it worked for a former boss who adopted from the Gladney Home–"The Nieman Marcus of Adoption Agencies". Of course Pete is still a kid himself & a baby is really not a good way to "save a marriage." But I doubt Trudy would refuse.
Concerning Beatlemania: It won't affect any of the Mad Folk in a huge way. The crowds at their NYC arrival made it a big news story. Maybe somebody at not-so-hip SC might start thinking about The Youth Market. (If SC still exists.) Roger might offer a few choice words of snark & Jane could go all fashion victim for the kicky, Mod styles. It took a few years for the Zany Moptops to become Working Class Heroes. (cue sitar music & a whiff of incense. yeah, right–that's incense!)
November 4th, 2009 at 10:40 am
The phrase is also scientific, most of the things happening in the cosmology also happens in the microscopic world as well
for example the planes revolves around the sun, and so as the electrons revolve around the nucleus of the atom.
in my opinion the ancient understood more than what we know today!!
November 4th, 2009 at 11:44 am
IIRC, at the end of season two, it wasn’t confirmed that there would be a third. This time, season 3 has already been signed off (joy!), so I would expect even less closure and more setups in s3ep13 than in s2ep13 (when Betty announced her pregnancy); I certainly don’t see a suicide.
It won’t surprise me to see ep13 open several months down the line, so that Don is a Saturday father, a buyer for SC is on the horizon, and maybe that Pete has jumped ship to Grey – or Grey buy SC, even.
One thing 11/23 must have marked that’s totally relevant to SC (and Harry Crane) is the expansion of TV as the medium of advertisers’ choice (how many TVs were sold on the back of that assassination I wonder?), much as is now happening with the Internet. This (selling TV space) was the business model that Duck envisaged that was so anathema to Don and Bert.
November 4th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
The consistent references to suicide confuse me because didn’t they use suicide with Adam already? Granted, there are many ways to explore it but my money is that there will be a death in the finale, but not an outright suicide. Maybe the death/suicide of Sterling Cooper?
I love myself some Yoda so I hope it isn’t him but that is my bet. The line “Bert Cooper still has a say around here” wasn’t a natural fit. And what about the scene with Roger where Bert is the last man standing from the original firm? Just my guess.
November 4th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
#31. Yup.
A different name (or two) for every MM site. But the same old ideas, over & over….
November 4th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
@ 42 gypsy howell I’d like to see a Christmas episode. We haven’t seen one yet, and it would be really interesting to see how Weiner handles it. I’d imagine it would be like a Sorkin Christmas episode; it’s not a Christmas episode, but it takes place at Christmas time, and the holiday is just a background for something greater.
November 4th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
@ 43 gypsy howell- I don’t think Peggy was at the wedding. She was probably too low on the totem pole to be invited.
November 4th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Rambling here- if it WAS Alison with Ken at the wedding, that could portend yet another blow to Don. He finally gets an awesome secretary, and she up and marries the Senior VP of Something and Something.
November 4th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
@ 47 gypsy howell- I wouldn’t worry. Alison will probably work until she becomes pregnant, and would be sure to find a replacement who is equally awesome.
November 4th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Also, I don’t Ken settling down anytime soon. He’s enjoying being a bachelor too much. If he brought Alison to the wedding, it was only because he remembers the Derby Day party, and how Pete received attention from management for his dancing skills.
November 4th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
#38 – there is a movie 'night, Mother' (1986)with Sissy Spacek and Anne Bancroft. I think it was adapted from a play. It covers this subject. Great acting. It popped in my mind from your question.
November 4th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
Gingere, thanks. I remember that one too. It was adapted from a play and was tough to transfer to film because it's all dialogue between just two characters, on basically one set. Tough multiplex ticket to sell, I'm sure. But it was beautifully heart-breaking and honest, and the acting did definitely rock.
It's been gnawing at me all day and I still can't think of a TV show, (which would have more time to look at it,) that tried it though. I know most writers dislike giving up a good character and many viewers wouldn't be entertained but the thoughts and emotions are bedrock humanity, would have to be interesting to work with and present.
I don't think any of the main MM players have to sweat yet though. But most do have the acting chops to give it a good try.
November 5th, 2009 at 7:11 am
Wow! I totally missed the sleeping pills/suicide motif. We've learned a lot about suicide as an attention-getter (and not an absolute death wish) during the last few decades, which makes me wonder: which MM character needs that much attention right now? I have to agree that Suzanne comes across as a pill-popping/too late phone call/possible accidental overdoser… this could be really interesting.
Thanks for the incredible insight, y'all!
November 5th, 2009 at 9:07 am
@ 50 not_Bridget- I agree with you 100% about how Beatlemania will be covered. I didn't mean we were going to hear a lot of Beatles songs in the office, but depending on when the next season starts, we may hear about the crowds, and there may be a conversation in the elevator/conference room about Ed Sullivan. I think there's going to be a scene of Peggy, Kurt, and Smitty, being asked to use Beatlemania to sell something. Not that they are going to use the Beatles themselves, but the look/style/type of music.
November 5th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
re: #38- Nip/Tuck did a sensitive suicide/euthanasia story in season 2, I believe. Sean was having an affair with a woman Megan whose breast cancer had returned.
Apparently the documentary The Bridge about people jumping off the Golden Gate bridge examined the lives of a few of the jumpers.
I don't know that you'll get much compassionate examination outside of euthanasia or ritual suicide stories since it otherwise can't really be viewed as a rational decision.
November 6th, 2009 at 5:45 am
l-o-m- pyle, in full metal jacket would count for me.
November 6th, 2009 at 5:54 am
#38: A guy killed himself on FlashForward last night, but for a timey-wimey, SF kind of reason.
(Last night was the second episode I'd seen–not sure about the show but it's an interesting cast. Callum Keith Rennie, Jack Davenport, one of the Fiennes boys & a formerly-Lost Hobbit. Plus Jane Siegel-Sterling!)
#50: I'm pretty sure we won't hear any real Beatles music if/when the Mad Men encounter Beatlemania. Too hard to get rights to those tunes. (Blame Yoko.)
November 6th, 2009 at 6:20 am
I'm kinda surprised everyone thinks MM will have to deal with Beatlemania. I just don't see it impinging on the adult world of MM. Maybe Peggy, Smitty and Kurt will fall under their spell (although even they might be a little bit old) and if my own family experience (me being Sally's age) is any guide, maybe the Drapers will gather in front of the TV to watch them on the Ed Sullivan Show. But otherwise, I don't think Bealtlemania influenced the lives of my parents much at all.
Could be wrong, but I just don't see it being THAT big of a deal for the show.
November 6th, 2009 at 6:24 am
#56 Jackie, Nip/Tuck kind of wore me out before they got to that story I guess. I'll check it out, thanks.
not_Bridget, " I'm leaving this cruel world to repair a rip in the space/time continuum" sounds almost noble. That cast does sound worth it though.
and Nancy esme Guildenkrantz — you are dark and timely, (if you've seen the news today) that's why I'm following you around so much.
"Who's the leader of the club that's made for you and me?"
November 6th, 2009 at 7:16 am
Concerning Beatlemania: Check my post #50.
In which I point out that it will only be dealt with peripherally if at all. As a high schooler in 1964, the Beatles made lots of impact on me & my classmates. But Sally's a bit young & the Mad Men & Women are definitely too old. Kurt & Smitty were hired because somebody had heard about "The Youth Market"–maybe that concept will get a little more attention.
My nomination for Cultural Phenomenon Sterling Cooper Will Unfortunately Miss: Andy Warhol & his Factory. Totally relevant to the world of advertising. Plus sex, drugs & an impending assassination attempt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Warhol#1960s
Might Kurt or Smitty wander to an art happening? What would Don or Roger make of the Factory denizens? Right in the same city–but far away from our Mad Folk.
November 6th, 2009 at 7:32 am
n-B: well, by "everyone" I meant "some people" of course.
November 6th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Re #61- That would be a nice way to catch up with Midge. As a graphic designer she might be part of the Warhol scene.
November 7th, 2009 at 7:27 am
Matt Weiner himself just talked about why he finally did a Kennedy episode to TV Guide, at http://www.tvguide.com/News/MadMen-Weiner-Kennedy...
November 8th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Off topic question that has been rolling around my mind (and my sister's) this afternoon, ever since reading about Peggy and Pete's baby and hoping that it doesn't get introduced into the show:
Was that Peggy's sister's baby (blond haired little boy) who was sleeping in the crib in S2, the one Peggy had to hold during Mass? Her sister made such a point of making Peggy go say goodbye to the sleeping babe in one episode that we thought, well, maybe the State of New York made the decision to place the baby with family. But did they do that in the 1960's — place unwanted children with family?
November 8th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
[...] commits suicide? There have been, what, six? Mentions of suicide this season? Gypsy has a partial collection; I think she left one out but I can’t bring it to mind. I’m sure this must be [...]