You don’t know!
You don’t know! You don’t know what it’s like to want something your whole life, and to plan for it and, and count on it and not get it, okay?
–Dr. Greg McRapist
Yes. She does.
The thing that is very clear about this line is that it exactly articulates where Joan is right now. I thought it was perfect, and not subtle, but I haven’t seen much discussion of it. Joan wanted a good marriage to the right man her whole life; a handsome, smart, successful man with a good heart, like, say, a doctor who does charity work. She did everything right. She made herself ideal wife material, rejected the losers and the married boss, and went straight for the perfect ring and the perfect wedding and the perfect man.
And she didn’t get it.
She’s so smart, and so competent. She loves her work and she can do pretty much anything set before her. She managed a complex and busy office with aplomb. She could easily have taken the script-reading job, and she didn’t even ask for it. Because it wasn’t what she’d wanted her whole life, what she’d planned for, what she’d counted on. So she swallowed the pain and moved on. What did it matter? She had Dr. Greg Harris.
I don’t condone domestic violence, let’s be clear about that. People should NOT hit their partners with objects. But the rage he feels against his fate is a small portion of the rage she feels because her denial, her disappointment, her perverse inability to have what she thought she had, is invisible.
October 27th, 2009 at 7:33 am
The interesting thing about Joan/Greg for me is that Greg is the trophy husband. In other marriages, like Don/Betty, the wife is the prized possession for the husband to show off. Joan is so much happier when she is flasing her ring around and boasting about her handsome successful doctor. She married him for her pride and for the appearence of their marriage. Greg is Joan’s accessory not the other way around. Does Joan love Greg or did she only ever love the idea of Greg that she constructed to make herself feel so proud?
I think Joan has a lot of surpressed ambitions. She insists to Peggy that she never wanted her job, but when she got a taste of the Media job she did get those same ambitious longings. The scene when Joan is coaching Greg for his interview is one of the few scenes where Joan/Greg seem happy together and I think Joan feels happy because she is living her own ambitions through Greg. She is imagining herself at this job interview and showing how confident and capable she would be.
I think since the rape scene a lot of fans are stuck on this idea that Joan is a helpless victim in this marriage and Greg is the abusive and dominent husband. But it’s just not true anymore. Joan is the dominent one here. She can smash a vase over her husband’s head and the next day Greg is the one who has to buy her flowers and apologise. I actually think he got the message that he is not living up to Joan’s expectations and tried to solve things by joining the army.
Joan’s biggest problem is not Greg, it is her pride and the choices she has made because of her pride. I don’t even think Joan being a woman is the real problem when characters like Peggy, Rachel and Bobbie Barrett have overcome so much sexism. Joan is capable of the same. Joan is surpressing her own capabilities.
October 27th, 2009 at 7:52 am
That was a very powerful moment and when Greg said that Joan didn’t know what it’s like, I wanted to slap him
he’s stupid and ignorant not only in medicine but in life as well. When she’s coaching him the only thing he could say that it’s not a beauty pageant dismissing her opinion. Yet he’s weak and can’t get a job himself.
It feels like Joan has set herself a target of marriage due to some artificial reasons – like society appropriateness or her mother’s influence, whatever. And she’s clinging to that no matter what. Her ambitions and confidence actually stripped her of the ability to marry like Jane did, to become a cute housewife in the perfect house. Greg seems to be young enough and stupid enough that she played him. Maybe she’s just unlucky: he could have been stupid but a talented surgeon. Now he’s either gonna be killed or maimed and then she would become even less happier. It reminds me of the first marriage of Scarlett O’Hara, actually. Joan will be so much better without Greg even if she refuses to accept that.
October 27th, 2009 at 8:19 am
I found it very cathartic – and loved that Greg was the one to apologize for the vase she broke. I noticed the relationship had re-balanced itself in that early scene when they bickered over setting places at the table, and Joan insisted he come back and kiss her before his shower. I also thought she looked genuinely relieved when he announced he’d joined the army – it fit perfectly into her vision of their Perfect Marriage, because now she gets to be the dutiful army wife, and gets to keep working in his absence if she wants to.
October 27th, 2009 at 8:41 am
Bingo, Deb.
It’s as if the original response to Greg’s line was “The Hell I don’t!!!” And then they crossed that out and put in “She cracks him across the head with a glass vase.”
Show, don’t tell …
October 27th, 2009 at 8:58 am
And how many women knew so very well what Joan was feeling at the time of that remark. She’ll manage . . . she always has. Managed. That’s what women like Joan do. That’s what most women do. They take what they get and do what they can.
October 27th, 2009 at 9:03 am
The vase scene for me was just one more in a line of those “gotcha” moments, which spill over into fantasy, that makes this show such an adrenaline rush to watch. It’s right there with Betty shooting the pigeons, Don grabbing Bobbie’s who-knows-what-exactly, Peggy’s unknown pregnancy, Freddy Rumsen urinating on himself, Roger riding one of the twins, etc… It’s a character doing something outrageous. Something that we all, deep down in our own fantasy, sometimes wish we could do, but in reality never would.
October 27th, 2009 at 9:11 am
I guess Joan is made to be the stereotyped hot tempered redhead. Would it have been just as effective to have her grab the vase think about hitting him and throwing the vase? He was drunk, maybe he would not have gotten the message otherwise. He’s in the army now, whether he comes out alive or not, this marriage is not healthy and Joan is just as resonsible for its dysfunction as he is. She chose him and she is an adult. Hitting someone with anything is not an adult thing to do. If she is unahappy she should, swallow her pride and get out. Mind you I love Joan, but violence is not the answer. Maybe she grew up in an abusive home. I don’t recall hearing anything about her family of orgin.
October 27th, 2009 at 9:20 am
# 6 Aran Says: It’s a character doing something outrageous. Something that we all, deep down in our own fantasy, sometimes wish we could do, but in reality never would
————-
Aran I agree with this, you stated it perfectly.
October 27th, 2009 at 9:45 am
Speak for yourself, Aran.
And folks, “violence may not be the answer” but in reality, it often is. You could say the same thing about cheating on your spouse. Depicting the reality of how people are is part of what I like about this show.
October 27th, 2009 at 9:50 am
Gingere: How, exactly, could Joan “get out” of her marriage? We just heard Betty’s lawyer explain how proof of adultery was the only way to get a divorce.
I think the Greg Bashing was payoff–for Joan & the fans–for the Rape. After witnessing that horror, we all did research & noted that neither date rape nor marital rape “existed” back then. Neither Joan nor Greg thought it was rape. (Then, why the terror in her eyes?) OK. Things were different then. I get it.
So I’d like to go on record as being against Spousal Abuse–by either partner. But, back then, Joan was just getting his attention. Like Maggie & Jiggs: http://www.oldwoodtoys.com/MaggieAndJiggsBoxed.jpg (As long as she doesn’t make a habit of it.)
Rather than just be a cossetted wife, I think that Joan wants a family; she could be a kickass mother. But she’s stuck with a big baby. (I agree that she wanted a good husband, not just a rich one.) Now that it appears he will be out of the way for a while, I would prefer she develop her professional kills rather than find a new guy. (Or a new/old guy.)
Hey, maybe Peggy will need a new roommate? Alas, Kitty might be single again–so she could join them. Just like Apartment 3G, which was pretty good back in the old days: http://profmendez.tripod.com/html/apart3G.htm
October 27th, 2009 at 10:09 am
I realize this is a bit of a hobbyhorse that I rode a bit in the liveblog thread for this episode, but pardon me if I ride it just a few more feet…
I think it’s a shame that Deborah feels compelled to point out that she doesn’t condone domestic violence in her evaluation of a fictional moment in a work of dramatic pop art.
I understand why, mind you (or at least I think I do — and pardon me, Deborah, if I’m attributing motives to you that don’t exist, but); we live in extremely touchy, easily-offended times. I’ve already seen myriad examples of Basketcases tut-tutting over The Vase Incident, practically falling over themselves to shake their fingers at the You Go, Joanie contingent (while making *absolutely certain* that we all know where the tut-tutters stand… lest we get the idea that they routinely crack dinner plates over their spouse’s heads during arguments about taking out the trash).
I don’t really know a nicer way to say this: it’s insane.
Are we now to temper our reviews of a production of HAMLET with a disclaimer about how suicide is a terrible crisis that destroys lives and families?
Is it possible for me to discuss Meville’s BILLY BUDD without adding, “And of course I understand WHY Billy was so angry at Claggart, but I really don’t think it was necessary to kill him. They should have sat down over a nice cup of ship’s tea and discussed it”?
And how about Tom and Jerry cartoons? Good heavens…
October 27th, 2009 at 10:11 am
It’s interesting to compare Joan with Betty. Both Joan and Betty bought completely into the Perfect Housewife dream. Betty is the one who has grown discontented with it, questioned it, and rebelled against, while Joan continues to believe in it. Joan isn’t shooting birds, manipulating her friends into affairs, confiding in 10-year-old boys, or humping strange men in the back room of bars. Of course, Betty has been married longer, and to an emotionally-distant philandering enigma, while Joan just has a loser and a jerk.
What’s ironic is that Joan is the one far better equipped to dump the dream if the scales would just fall from her eyes. We’ve discussed at length here what Betty’s options are if she left Don: What, really, could she do? No one worries about that in Joan’s case. We know she’s capable of doing anything she sets herself to. The feminist movement can’t come along fast enough for her, but, will she go with it? A lifetime’s dreaming can be hard to shake off.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:25 am
You had me LAUGHING OUT LOUD by quoting Greg McRapist. Good one!!!
October 27th, 2009 at 10:28 am
Oh wow.
What we see of Joan at home is that she is not always put together and self-controlled the way she is at work. Greg destroyed her sense of being in command at work when he raped her in Don’s office — to the point early this season where Joan said (and acted as though) she can’t wait to get out of there.
I was glad to see Joan so well dressed and made up when she was on the phone with Roger — that was the first time we had seen her like that in ages. Even at Bonwit’s she was not quite as composed as she was when she was networking for a new office job.
She’s not always in command. No one is. But she knows how to rally. And Greg had it coming.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Really? Because her hesitation in praising him, and then that look in her eyes when she pulled away and started to leave the room – the mask of happiness falling away to show something cold and hard and sad – said exactly the opposite to me. Something along the lines of “I didn’t think he could get any dumber, AND YET.” But that’s my read on it.
I know very little about the life of Army wives and how that might differ for an Army surgeon, but I am pretty sure this is not what Joan wanted either. Of course, she’s not going to admit to herself what she really wants. That would be acknowledging that she was playing the wrong game all along.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:45 am
This is OT, but there are so many threads I don’t know where to put it anymore!
One little moment that struck me in G&H was when Suzanne talks about how she is treated well in Little Italy, and how she wishes she could take Don there. Is this a metaphor for real love and real life versus ersatz love and pretend life?
Don and Betty go to the real Italy, where Betty is not just treated well, but positively ogled over. She is absolutely stunning there, and has the confidence to pull it off. Men race to light her cigarette and compete for her attentions. Don and Betty make passionate love overlooking the cityscape of Rome.
Suzanne is content with a pale imitation of the real thing. Is Don?
October 27th, 2009 at 10:47 am
We all know conceptually that violence is not the answer, but in this case, are we right? Would anything else have awakened Greg to understanding he’s not the only one in this marriage?
I don’t believe for a moment that Joan loves Greg the way, for instance, Trudy really seems to love Pete. Joan picked Greg because she was past her expiration date and thought she’d hit the husband jackpot – and that was the only prize she was ever really playing for. She never realized that Greg was damaged goods, and I think only got that message when she entertained the other doctors and their wives. When the head doc’s wife said that Greg getting Joan was a point in his favor, I think she first understood that “doctor” does not equal “successful” or even “competent.”
But like Joan always does, she makes the best of the situation at hand. Joan doesn’t cringe at the sight of a cut-off foot, she springs into action to make sure the damage doesn’t get worse. The same as when she found out her husband was not going to be the perfect specimen she’d hoped – she’s committed to her marriage and to making it, and Greg, a success. We see that in her support of his potential specialty change, even though it means years more training, and in her coaching him in the interview scene.
But Joan cannot make this marriage a success by herself; she needs Greg to pull a little weight, and the vase to the head was her way of getting that message through a very thick skull. To be honest, when she went to hit him, at first I thought we were about to watch MW recreate a version of the Roald Dahl short story “Lamb to the Slaughter.” I really thought Greg was a goner, but even in anger Joan knows better. She used an object she knew would shatter on impact and not hurt Greg too bad. Hell, she’d probably make a better doctor than Greg will.
I think MW is trying to show us two versions of the problem of the “perfect” marriage, at least as the people of the 50s and early 60s thought of it. Clearly Don and Betty are one example, but so are Joan and Greg. Joan is more aware than Betty that the wife’s role is both a role and very challenging to get right, but they are both living out lives that fulfill that fantasy of a marriage. I have a feeling Joan will be far more successful at it, and even mentioned in the episode open thread what a kick-ass military wife she’d make – Greg will get promotions whether he deserves them or not because Joan is going to sweet-talk her way into the good graces of his commanding officers’ wives.
But the contrast between the marriages in the episode is interesting. There were explosions – one literal, on figurative – in both marriages in the ep. Joan’s explosion only resulted in a furthering of the fantasy, but Betty’s may well have laid the foundation for a much better marriage between Betty and Don. We shall have to see.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:49 am
He’s lucky there was a vase handy, and not a frying pan.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Agree with you Nomie- this is the complete opposite of how I read Joan’s reaction. She was completely deflated. If she couldn’t have imagined anything worse than the prospect of going to Alabama, Greg just presented it to her. No effin’ way is Joanie going to be an Army wife.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:04 am
Gypsy: I think Suzanne represents a simpler, more spontaneous, stress free lifestyle to Don. Little Italy is just a hop on a train away. It doesn’t take a whole lot of planning and it’s grittier and freer. It’s still like that fifty years later.
BTW, following up on my Ibsen-Peer Gynt theory, what color do you associate with Suzanne?
October 27th, 2009 at 11:22 am
I saw more than a few parallels between Joan and Betty’s situations in the ep. Both put all their hopes into their husbands, and on Sunday night, they finally, briefly saw their men for who they really were and finally rebelled against it. Joan responded with a vase, and Betty responded by showing Don the box. But after they finally let themselves see the truth for a brief moment, they slipped right back into their usual roles by the end – Joan after Greg’s “bright idea” and Betty after Don’s tears over Adam.
By now, we expect Betty to stay entrenched in her bubble no matter what, but we have higher expectations for Joan. Still, since the worst probably isn’t over for the Drapers, and since Roger is back in Joan’s orbit, there’s still time to piece those bubbles again.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:26 am
I still don’t think it was Joan that rejected Roger. That one didn’t work out, the New Girl got him instead, so she went out and got herself someone that she could brag about to the girls, someone that looks good on paper. And he’s a dolt and she’s stuck with him. Frankly, it kind of bugs me that the writers did this to her. It’s good in that it brings up a lot of issues, but to some extent it doesn’t ring true to me – Joan is just too smart to be caught in this web.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:27 am
#16 gypsy–
I totally agree with you. I doubt MW chose Little Italy over anywhere else in the entire world without intending the viewers to make that parallel. And I thougt it interesting, and revealing as wel,l that when Don did plan a getaway with Suzanne, it was most definitely not to Litlle Italy!
As far as Joan’s reaction to Greg’s enlisting, I wonder if she wasn’t also deflated at his comment about her not having to go back to work anymore? This coming after she had already spoken to Roger and made the mental leap to be back on the job. I almost expected her to say (again), That’s done, Greg.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:32 am
I thought Joan’s use of the vase was letting him off easy – I mean, she COULD’VE used her 40-pound accordion.
Hooray for Joan!
October 27th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Probably a very un-PC to say, but I don’t know about calling the character “McRapist”. Sounds inflamatory and inconsistent. I don’t like his character either and we all love Joan but it just seems… distasteful.
Greg is a rapist. What is Don? Pete? Roger? I don’t know. I just. don’t. know.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Eh, here I am making comments about Joan and the Vase Incident without noticing there’s a new post just about that…
CPT_Doom : We all know conceptually that violence is not the answer, but in this case, are we right?
As far as I’m concerned, conceptual opinions on violence aside I think this particular instance of it was disturbing. Partly because of the level, and I might be wrong there because Greg looked more surprised than hurt, and I would have expected a vase-shattering blow to knock him out. But mostly because it comes out of nowhere. We know how Joan feels, how perfectly horrible that phrase was to her, how frustrated she’s been for so long and everything that’s bubbling up inside, but as far as Greg’s concerned, his wife just went from kind and solicitous as usual to BREAKING A VASE ON HIS HEAD with no transition whatsoever.
Bottling up all your frustration and acting perfect all the time, just to snap in a spectacular act of violence, can you get more unhealthy ? Unfortunately I can’t imagine Joan behaving any differently, being perfect in every way seems to be so important to her.
I think MW is trying to show us two versions of the problem of the “perfect” marriage, at least as the people of the 50s and early 60s thought of it. Clearly Don and Betty are one example, but so are Joan and Greg. Joan is more aware than Betty that the wife’s role is both a role and very challenging to get right, but they are both living out lives that fulfill that fantasy of a marriage. I have a feeling Joan will be far more successful at it, and even mentioned in the episode open thread what a kick-ass military wife she’d make – Greg will get promotions whether he deserves them or not because Joan is going to sweet-talk her way into the good graces of his commanding officers’ wives.
I don’t agree, I think that’s a completely backwards way of looking at it. Joan is more aware than Betty that being a wife is a role, but that’s her problem. She’s playing a role, but this isn’t a play it’s her life. It’s her private life. Basically she’s condemning herself to play a very demanding role 24/7, no wonder she snapped.
Betty is less accomplished at playing the role of the wife, but by that same token she isn’t under as much pressure as Joan… well, she is, but she isn’t inflicting as much of that pressure on herself, that has to count for something.
But the difference between the two is more fundamental I think… For all the secrets and hidden depths Betty and Don have, they’re still both in the ballpark of someone they could love and have a good marriage with. I wouldn’t say as much about Greg’s suitability for Joan. And as competent, perfect and efficient she shows herself to compensate for his failings, the more obvious his failings become to both of them, and the harder it becomes for her to respect him. And Joan doesn’t strike me as the person who would enjoy waiting hand and foot forever on someone she doesn’t respect.
So yeah, if we’re looking at who can make the prettiest show of a marriage Joan is probably the winner, but if we’re looking at who can achieve a happy marriage I think she doesn’t have a chance. Betty does.
But the contrast between the marriages in the episode is interesting. There were explosions – one literal, on figurative – in both marriages in the ep. Joan’s explosion only resulted in a furthering of the fantasy, but Betty’s may well have laid the foundation for a much better marriage between Betty and Don. We shall have to see.
Totally in agreement there.
falafel : I think since the rape scene a lot of fans are stuck on this idea that Joan is a helpless victim in this marriage and Greg is the abusive and dominent husband. But it’s just not true anymore. Joan is the dominent one here. She can smash a vase over her husband’s head and the next day Greg is the one who has to buy her flowers and apologise.
That was my reaction too. All this time I’d been so worried about Joan, every interaction with Creepy Greg I’d been expecting him to lash out at her violently, either in frustration at his job problems or in resentment of her competence, and now I’m thinking I might have been worried about the wrong person.
Not that he still might not lash out. This is really becoming the marriage from hell isn’t it ?
not_Bridget : Neither Joan nor Greg thought it was rape. (Then, why the terror in her eyes?)
I don’t see the contradiction between thinking an experience was painful and scary and not wanting it repeated, and thinking it wasn’t rape. Or, for that matter, thinking it’s got to be okay because it’s socially acceptable. Think female circumcision in some cultures that practice it.
Nomie I know very little about the life of Army wives and how that might differ for an Army surgeon, but I am pretty sure this is not what Joan wanted either.
I for one am quite confused as to her reaction to that news. I asked on the other thread if some basketcases have information about the life of an army surgeon’s wife in those days that might give some context, but this thread is a better place.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:40 am
@20 riverdaughter- perhaps, but either way, Suzanne settles for the imitation. Her relationship with Don can never be “real” and she knows, and yet she accepts it.
Why is that? She is young, pretty, has a nice career, and yet she does nothing to get herself out of the trap of dating married men, when she ought to be setting her sights higher. It’s not like she and Don just “happened” – they both engineered it to happen. She’s as afraid of commitment as Don is, or she wouldn’t be continually setting herself up to have relationships with men that have no future.
Ah well. We’ll see if it even matters anymore in terms of our main storyline. Will she just disappear into the sunset like all his other affairs? (I think her brother Danny could be the one who comes back to haunt Don’s life, not Suzanne, but maybe not until many episodes from now.)
As for Joan — he might be in the Army now, but I don’t think she will be. Time to start making plans for yourself, Joan! Maybe she can’t divorce him, but she can pretty easily lead a very separate life if she chooses. “You’re off to Fort Whatever? Don’t forget to write.”
October 27th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Probably a very un-PC to say, but I don’t know about calling the character “McRapist”. Sounds inflamatory and inconsistent.
I’m also getting a little tired of the one dimensional portrayals of Greg. Yeah, I don’t like him either, but he’s much more complex than just “the guy who raped Joan.” Just like Don is much more than “a guy who fucked another guy’s wife.”
I actually like that MM is giving Greg some depth, and I kinda wish they’d give him more. It makes the relationship between him and Joan so much more interesting and complicated. I think it’s more than just “Joan chose poorly.” Although of course, she did.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:48 am
#22 Joan was already engaged by the time Jane arrived on the scene (Joan is engaged at the beginning of The New Girl and Jane makes her first appearance in the middle of the episode). Joan was saying how she would be very busy planning her wedding and even showed Jane her ring as they were walking to Don’s desk on Jane’s first day.
If anything, I think Roger took up with Jane as a replacement for Joan. You could see some sadness and nostalgia on Roger’s face after Joan tells him privately in his office about how happy she is and how she will be/has always been faithful to her fiance.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Aran, I wish to state for the record that I have never secretly wished to piss myself.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:51 am
I can’t feel any sympathy for Joan. I can’t feel sympathy for someone who bashes her husband’s head with a vase out of anger and frustration. Right now, I don’t see her being any better than Greg.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:53 am
It’s good in that it brings up a lot of issues, but to some extent it doesn’t ring true to me – Joan is just too smart to be caught in this web.
Joan is not that smart. And I believe that Weiner has made this clear ever since Season 1.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Aran, I wish to state for the record that I have never secretly wished to piss myself.
Bwahahaha.
But — have you ever wished you were 3 sheets to the wind, (or maybe 6 sheets in Freddy’s case) before a presentation?
October 27th, 2009 at 11:55 am
DRush76: You’re right. It is completely inappropriate to smash your rapist with a vase. I would have shot him in the crotch, but that’s just me. Otherwise, he would just think of me as a doormat. Joanie’s no doormat.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:55 am
For the record, I noted in the open thread that “[i]f you say exactly the wrong thing to Joan, you get the vase upside the head.” And this is precisely what I meant by it.
As for Greg’s apology, I would note that — for his many, many faults — he does have to know a little something about Joan and her character. After calling her insane, it undoubtedly occurred to him that: (a) Joan is an expert manager of situations, and that if she reached the point where he gets conked, he needs to get his act together (though he botches that, too); and (b) Joan was at that moment the only good thing in his life, and it’s even more stupid to alienate her by wallowing in self-pity.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Geez Louise DRush, you have a very black and white view of the world.
And sorry, Joan is very smart. What are you referring to in Season 1?
(I’m sorry, I know I shouldn’t be feeding this….)
October 27th, 2009 at 11:58 am
I know that “kills” is a typo, but I love it muchly.
Ha! Peggy=Tommy; Joan=Maggie; Kitty=Luann! It’s perfect!
October 27th, 2009 at 11:59 am
#32 Joan not smart? I guess running an office and making your executives look good and giving great advice on script readings and etc. indicate some kind of dope. I must have misinterpreted.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:59 am
I was really surprised to find out that Joan really wanted the husband, white-picket fence, children in the suburbs lifestyle. That was her dream, and even though she talked about not working someday early in the series, I didn’t beleive her. I thought she was just saying it because it was the right thing to say at the time. It never occured to me until Sunday that she actually wanted it.
As for her future as an army doctor’s wife, I’m basing this on “M*A*S*H,” so I have no idea if this is accurate. Wives do not have to live on base, and can stay where they were before their husband was drafted or enlisted.
Joan and Betty are about the same age. Betty’s development stopped in her twenties, when she married Don and became a mother shortly after. Joan, who married later, had a career, and seems a much more developed and fully realized person. You can bet Joan is going to be an amazing mother. Can’t you just see her working in the PTA, and organizing bake-sales?
Joan is going to go back to work for someone, that much is clear. One of my friends commented that while we only saw Roger making one phone call, that was not the first or the last call he made for her.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Can I just say that I think the writers kinda of dissed military doctors in this episode? I’m sure that the medical profession has F%^&ups in many different areas. I was raised in a military family and my experience with military doctors has always been a very positive one. And I’m talking about the 60’s- 70’s. Now, I don’t know about battlefield trauma medicine back in the Vietnam era but I know that ER’s all across the country have benefitted from the experience of military medics, surgeons and doctors. So, while there may have been some Frank Burns in the field, they weren’t all bad. There were probably a lot more Hawkeye Pierce’s and BJ Honeycutts than we give them credit for.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
LOL! I’ll admit that I’m sure in some heated discussion with my husband or annoying co-worker, the thought of a John Deer might cross my mind for a moment. Luckily we don’t have one handy!
The show loves to throw in those, what I think of as “Road Runner” moments — you know the Wile E. Coyote hanging in the air after running off the cliff, in the midst of the drama. They make me laugh, or shudder. And they definitely make me pay attention.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
riverdaughter, I’m sure you are right, and generally speaking, despite being a dyed-in-the-wool pacifist, I think the medical personnel are the true heroes on the field of battle. But can you honestly say Greg is going to be more Hawkeye than Burns? Of course you can’t!
October 27th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
DRush76, REALLY? please elaborate on how exactly mw has shown that joan “is not that smart”.
i think it’s been quite the opposite. she is very sharp and has consistently been shown to be a smart, capable woman, albeit caught in the mindframe of desiring a “traditional” life. that does not make someone dumb.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Mike C.: Greg is a rapist. What is Don? Pete? Roger? I don’t know. I just. don’t. know.
I agree with you in that I don’t like this continual calling of Greg as a rapist because it’s not consistent with the mindset at the time of the series. He would not have been considered a rapist then, so this categorization is purely modern.
However, I don’t understand your statement about Don or Roger being rapists. Where have you ever seen that kind of behavior from then in the show? Adulterers and womanizers, yes, but rapists? No.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Ooops- and further, riverdaughter — don’t you feel just a little bit bad for all of Greg’s field hospital patients? They deserve much better than they are going to get with him. That’s the real tragedy about him joining the army – the army will be glad to have him.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Can I just say that I think the writers kinda of dissed military doctors in this episode?
It seems like an obvious conclusion, but then… Is there any job that wouldn’t appear to be dissed if Greg the incompetent surgeon joined it ? I’m pretty sure psychiatrists would have felt slighted if he’d become one, for instance.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
DRush76, REALLY? please elaborate on how exactly mw has shown that joan “is not that smart”
She had married Greg after what happened in “The Mountain King”. I don’t think that was a smart thing to do.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
@39 Retrogirl – I wonder how happy Joan would be once she got all that too. Would she end up just like Betty, feeling trapped and disillusioned? But one thing I will say about Joan — unlike Betty, who was brought up expecting everything to be handed to her (oh I’ll get flamed for saying that, I’m sure), Joan knows she has to work for every scrap, and she’s capable of throwing herself into any situation and finding something meaningful for herself in it. Look at how she took on the role of interview coach for pathetic inept Greg. But then, she already knows that she’s good at everything she puts her mind to – or we know it anyway. Does she?
October 27th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
*eyeroll*
October 27th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
gypsy: No, I think Greg is definitely going to be a Frank Burns. Ii just wish the writers had found a better place to park him than the military. BTW, that thing where he enlists without telling Joanie? Um, that happened to my family. It was the early sixties, my dad was laid off from his draftsman job at US Steel and he had trouble finding another job. One day, he disappeared and didn’t come back for a couple of weeks, ala Don Draper. My mom was frantic. Then one day she saw this sailor walking up the street towards her. Yep, my dad enlisted. He spent 20 years in the Navy. It was a steady job, good educational and vocational training and he had health benefits, which turned out to be extremely important since my sister was a chronic asthmatic. She would have died if it weren’t for Navy doctors. So, stuff like that does happen.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
#13 Melville,
Great point you brought up. I’ve always seen Joan and Betty as different sides of the same coin. Really, they’re the same generation. Both raised that wife/homemaker was the ultimate female profession and they would be judged in life on their appearance and the type of husband they managed to attract.
Where they differ, is one scored the husband early, and one had to work a bit longer before finding one. But they’re both imprisoned by their conditioning.
I still remember my Mom, who is about a decade younger than Betty telling me, when I was looking at majors in college, not to consider education or nursing because those were her only choices and I had so many more options. And I have an older sister in law who got pregnant at the end of high school. My father in law took her college fund money and put her husband through college — something she’s still not over today. It’s amazing what societal expectations did to these women, and how many more options even Sally will have.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
#26 Caravelle – great comments – too many to reply to, but one jumped out … Betty would be more apt to make a happy marriage than Joan?
I heartily disagree with that. Joan may not be the most enlightened in terms of her social attitude towards marriage, but she’s light years ahead of Betty. Betty’s approach to her marriage was to allow herself to be on the pedestal, and then didn’t realize that life doesn’t work that way. We see virtually no communication skills from Betty
Her anger at Don is totally justified, and her actions and restraint have been admirable, going back to last season. However, as her interior designer will tell you, she has no soul. No real character.
Joan is all character. Her husband is going through a rough patch, and she’s totally supportive (the army thing notwithstanding). She does play a role, but like her role at S-C, it is one she relishes and embodies.
She can both be a supporting wife, and play the role of supporting wife, and know the difference. The supporting wife role-plays his psychiatry interview to prepare him. Playing the role of supporting wife is getting up like a monkey to play the accordion for boss and dipshit colleagues.
But we know deep down she sees red flags, and the question is whether she will suppress them or acknowledge them.
To me, Betty is the porcelain doll, while Joan is the real thing.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Joan has not made good choices about men:
–Paul
–Icky sales guy (double date with her roomie)
–Roger (but she showed her resolve about not becoming his kept woman)
–Husband
I think the writers have showed us another version of a person chosing romantic partners poorly while doing well at the office.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Actually, one of the things I loved about it was exactly that. In movies, vases to the back of your head knock you out. And if you ask an expert what the #1 biggest lie of movie clichés is, they will agree that it is very hard to knock someone out. What happened in Mad Men is very much what happens when you get knocked in the head with a vase in real life.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
She had married Greg after what happened in “The Mountain King”. I don’t think that was a smart thing to do.
This is called victim-blaming and I personally find it totally unacceptable.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Deborah, I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I don’t think women even considered the concept of date rape back then. Christina Hendricks has repeatedly said that Joan just considered it a “bad date”.
Think about in old movies. Gone With The Wind comes to mind. Rhett clearly takes a struggling, fighting Scarlett up the stairs to have his way with her, the next scene she’s shown preening and secretly smiling in bed. These men, and many men still, believe in droit de seigneur.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Good points above about how Joan & Betty are close to the same age and were raised to have similar expectations for an adult woman’s life. It appears that Betty came from a more moneyed background, but we really don’t know much about Joan’s background.
@Empress Rouge #29 — I think Roger is VERY attached to Joanie, but Joan was smart enough to see how Roger would have cheated on her as Second Wife just as much as he cheated on Mona.
Roger didn’t cheat on Jane because he knows he’ll never have a chance at captivating such a sweet young thing again, and she might be too young and idealistic to forgive him.
As discussed by Olympia Dukakis and John Mahoney in the wonderful film Moonstruck, Oscar-winning screenplay by John Patrick Shanley (also writer and director of Doubt):
Rose: Why do men chase women? … why would a man need more than one woman?
Johnny: I don’t know. Maybe because he fears death.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
I really don’t understand why people say Joan ‘fell for’ the white picket fence, etc (I’m paraphrasing) – as a woman who was born in (gulp) ‘56, to a stay-at-home-mom, I was told flat-out that despite my excellent grades, college was not an option. So, I became a secretary – and my mom had pushed me (and all her daughters) to get a secretarial job and ‘find a nice manager and get married’. I graduated HS in ‘74…and now wish I had kept a journal of my early working days – mostly to re-read the stories of my older secretarial co-workers, some married, some not…and the expectations that American culture had placed on them – and how they (and I for a long time) bought into it.
I think Joan’s situation speaks such truths…as does Betty’s…as does Peggy’s…I just love the story lines and their complexities…it’s one helluva powerful show, whether it’s blatant and loud, or nuanced…
October 27th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
No one answered #20–
She’s green?
Ergo she’s been mind-impregnated,
No rabbit need die to prove it, for it is writ;
I feel she’s a better Solvieg but can’t defend it.
October 27th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Peggy Joan, the fear of death motivates many a man!! Good point.
October 27th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
#1 falafel said:
“Does Joan love Greg or did she only ever love the idea of Greg that she constructed to make herself feel so proud?”
To which I say:
Does Don love Betty or did he only ever love the idea of Betty that he constructed to make himself feel so proud?
Does Betty love Don or did she only ever love the idea of Don that she constructed to make herself feel so proud?
Does Roger love Jane or did he only ever love the idea of Jane that he constructed to make himself feel so proud?
and on and on…
It’s a great point.
October 27th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
The origins of the title “Ms.” explained.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/magazine/25FOB-onlanguage-t.html
October 27th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
@ Peggy Joan #57
Great quote, especially as applied to Roger. But it was Danny Aiello, not John Mahoney.
(I’m warming up until Evn posts the Tuesday movie trivia quiz over at LoverOfStrife.com
)
October 27th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
less of me: I’m going for Betty as Solveig. So, if the green woman has a child and Don runs away from her and Solveig, that makes sense plotwise. Or maybe, Nora leaves on her own. Either way, Peer and Solveig spend some years apart, right?
October 27th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
I’m just so relieved Joan was BACK and the writers aren’t done with her. She may well end up back at SC if the Brits pull out – assuming SC weathers the new curveball (who knows?).
But what struck me (pardon the pun) is that Greg got it in the back of the head, just like Don did in the motel room with the hitchhikers. Is there a parallel? We already noted in the “Film Noir” thread how that often happens to Marlowe in Raymond Chandler stories – so, nice resonance for Don. But Greg?
October 27th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
# 44 lsaspacey
It is true that Don, Pete, and Roger are not rapists (though some might argue that Pete is), I’m just saying that they all do horrible things.
On Joan. I don’t think of her as smart/not-smart. One of her functions was as a foil for Peggy. It just so happened that Joan also stole every scene she is in such that she became so much more.
October 27th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
@melville #63
Thanks, Melville.
I guess I was confusing that long dinner conversation that Rose had with lothario Perry (John Mahoney) at the cozy Italian restaurant with another part of the film. Those two did talk about just why a mature professor (him) would be dating the young college girl who threw a drink at him and stormed out just after Rose sat down at the next table.
Sorry about the “mashup”
October 27th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
riverdaughter mentioned this in a thread yesterday regarding Betty and it was demonstrated clearly in the practice interview with Greg– Joan married someone she knew very little about.
Remember Greg reflects and says ” I can’t believe I never told you that story about my father.” What’s a long engagement for if you don’t have substantial conversations about your parents and your childhood? This doesn’t get covered in dinner conversation before you buy a dress?
Betty just assumed Don was a high school footballer with daddy issues, just assumed that, didn’t need to see a photo or check out his yearbook before hand?
They made uninformed choices based on some phantom potential they felt these guys looked like they were destined to fulfill.
It’s a strong indictment of the brainwashing done by the patriarchy. No critical thinking – - here’s your part, choose a partner from this pile of accceptable looking males, and consume happily ever after!
Or not.
October 27th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
riverdaughter– did you post the full thesis on this you promised?
The timeline I can’t straighten all the way out. But Gene looked Elfin to me so I ran with it. But you’re right if Don starts with Solveig, then he’ll leave but Betty won’t be waiting in that cabin when he gets back, that tripped me up. Suzanne appears to be more patient.
And was it “reverse triple toe Gabler”?? I still get a guffaw out that one.
It was Greg who should have watched his Hedda. har,har.
October 27th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
What I LOVED about this moment (one more powerful moment in a truly perfect episode) is how surprised I was that she went for it, physically. First we see her seething, silently, and if she walked away that would have been powerful enough, but then we get This.
And it was everything I’ve wanted to see Joan do to Greg, ever since the rape scene.
It made me tremendously sad, knowing how trapped she felt, but in that moment, she didn’t choose to mask her own strength or power into something more socially acceptable. He’s grossly insensitive among other things and it seems, from his reaction, that he knew he deserved it.
October 27th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Great post, Deb!
I’m so glad you picked out that line. I commented on it yesterday, calling it out as the flash point for Joanie’s anger.
But what I noticed on a second viewing was this long moment, between Doctor Rapist’s delivery of that line, and Joanie getting up and going for the vase. During that long moment, she sits and considers. Thinks … thinks … thinks … THEN goes to the vase, back of the head: BAM!
I really remembered that as more of an impulse. But it was a line that went straight to the soul of Joanie’s disappointment, her compound losses, all of her own needs that as yet are unfulfilled.
Or violated.
BTW, I agree with riverdaughter on the competence of military medical personnel. My memories are more recent, but a friend of mine who volunteered for service in the first Iraq War had to outperform several others in the running before they’d let him ship out. He was a really good doctor, at that time doing emergency medicine at a Chicago area hospital. He, like so many others, wanted to serve his country — and be where the action was.
At least in all-volunteer army, they don’t take just anyone. You have to be good. Ask anyone at the VA hospital here in San Francisco.
October 27th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Roger’s former lover, the Horsemeat Heiress, told him he was “The One” for her. He replied that she wasn’t “The One” for him. Much discussion has ensued–is Jane or Joan Roger’s “One”? I think that Roger regards the concept of “The One” as sentimental claptrap. Yes, he loves Jane. He wants to be true to her & not destroy the marriage; a topic with which he has considerable experience.
Roger loved HH–& she kicked him in the balls. He must have loved Mona once upon a time. He truly cared for Joan & will continue to care for her–in his way. Now he has Jane & wants to keep her. (Will the fates allow? At least this isn’t a Whedon show.) I doubt he ever considered any of these ladies (or any of the others) to be “The One.”
Perhaps Joan met her “One” long before she came to SC; bad things happened. Either she abandoned the concept or she realized she wouldn’t meet another. So she applied herself to her work & to having fun. She thought she’d like a family–someday. Roger was a major distraction–scalawag that he is, he can be so damned charming. After his heart attack, she decided it was past time to move on.
So she found Greg. He looked good on paper & she truly came to care for him. Even after the rape, she went ahead & married him. He was a genius surgeon, after all–under all that stress. As his feet of clay became more evident, she kept trying to make the best of things. She had made a commitment. Then she snapped–just for a minute. Now, she will try to make the best of her evolving circumstances.
But Joan hasn’t been all starry eyed over “The One” for a very long time. Leave that to Suzanne.
Deborah:: Yes, “professional kills” was a typo. But now I’m trying to imagine Joan in a black catsuit, like Mrs Peel. With Lane Pryce as Steed?
October 27th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Re #65 and the blows to the back of the head – more JFK foreshadowings?
October 27th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
“Oh wad some power the “gifs” gie us To see oursel’s as others see us! It wad frae monie a blunder free us, And foolish notion”
Joan prefers bone china, obviously.
…just when he got his foot in the door.
can’t find just an audio file so I have to go with YouTube for Peggy’s “Spartacus for the rest of us” moment.
October 27th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Joan as Sally Hyde/Jane Fonda in Coming Home?
*orgasm*
October 27th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
[Joan] had made a commitment. Then she snapped–just for a minute. Now, she will try to make the best of her evolving circumstances.
Yes, I think Joan will try to make the best of things: to all intents and purposes, anyway. I think it is her way to make it seem as if all is well, even if she is quietly planning her getaway. Which I see her doing now.
Watch Joan’s face, in her last shot in “The Gypsy and The Hobo”. He’s come home, all flowers and apologies, promising her “lots of things”, and he has news: I’ve joined the Army!
Now she knows what she’s dealing with. He’s a dark place all the way through. She will never be able to navigate Gregspace, never mind understand him: he is thoroughly unpredictable. He tells her they’re going out (whoops! Another surprise!), about to spend money she doesn’t have, and when he moves in for a too-tight hug she has no choice.
But her face. Watch. That’s the diplomat face: Joan has already begun the practice of saying “nice doggie”.
Once she finds a rock, believe me: she’ll use it.
October 27th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Probably a very un-PC to say, but I don’t know about calling the character “McRapist”. Sounds inflamatory and inconsistent. I don’t like his character either and we all love Joan but it just seems… distasteful.
I find the McRapist or Dr Rapist nickname distasteful too. On many levels.
1) It’s dehumanising. I don’t think that dehumanising someone is ever a righteous response to dealing with any crime. I feel like fans are wanting to brand Greg and say “Burn the Witch!”
2) Name calling in general is just petty and childish. If you have strong feelings about rape then why not take the issue seriously? Responding to it with silly nicknames makes the issue seem silly, which it isn’t.
3) It’s insulting to the writing. As others have pointed out Weiner isn’t writing Greg as a one-dimensional character, the actor playing Greg (who is very good, btw) isn’t playing him as a one-dimensional character yet fans continue to view him in a one-dimensional way.
I just think it’s gotten old. It’s not hard to remember the guys name is Greg,
October 27th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Now I’m turned on.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
@ not_Bridget #72
But now I’m trying to imagine Joan in a black catsuit, like Mrs Peel. With Lane Pryce as Steed?
Oh, how I wish I had photoshop skills! I want to see that poster!
October 27th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
What if Greg had broken a vase on Joan’s head?
October 27th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Honestly I was kinda turned on by Don & Betty’s shoving match a while back. YMMV.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
considering it has historically been men doing the abusing, supporting the abusing, condoning the abusing, perpetuating the circumstances that contribute to abuse, it’s a rather large pill to swallow to see those comments coming to the defense of Dr. McRapist (oh boy, that should add to the indignant cries)
October 27th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
ok i’m probably making assumptions so if it wasn’t primarily men, it seems so. if i’m wrong, sorry.
it still makes me fume.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
I also liked it when Don punched Jimmy Barrett in the face.
Of course, in the real world, that’s assault.
I still liked it though.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
How about when Betty bitch-slapped Helen?
October 27th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Mmmmmm… not so much, but only because I’m not sure (or don’t remember) what Helen did to deserve it. The whole Betty-Glenn relationship was deeply disturbing to me.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Or hey, how about Sally pummeling Bobby? Now there’s some domestic abuse!
About Don punching Jimmy Barrett in the face: in today’s world that’s assault. Back then they would have called it … well, nothing, probably, in a legal sense.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
#82:
So, because “it has historically been men doing the abusing, supporting the abusing, condoning the abusing, perpetuating the circumstances that contribute to abuse,” Joan can smash a vase over Greg’s head, NOT in self-defense.
Also, you seem to think I support rape. Wrongo.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
you know, i have to say i’m quite irritated that it seems to be the men on here criticizing joan, and the rest of us who in some way cheered her response to her rapist of a husband, and crying “domestic violence! you’re all awful for cheering that on!”
I find the responses to Joanie’s actions very interesting as well. What if she’d simply smacked him upside the head with her hand? Would that have been domestic violence or would we have been freer to enjoy the moment?
I think the difference between the reaction to Joan’s violence and Greg’s rape is that Joan’s smashing of the vase was clearly an expression of her repressed anger at her husband – anger she does not believe she can express any other way (that’s why I said above that she’ll do better at the fantasy marriage than Betty will – she won’t be happier, but she’ll fit the stereotype better). Greg’s actions were deliberate and demeaning.
It is a total double standard, but it is a double standard born of the inherent power differential between men and women, particularly when you look at the time we are talking about. I remember well being about 7 or 8 years old when my parents were having a knock-down, drag-out screaming match (not uncommon in their marriage) over, of all things, how to hang the wallpaper in my sister’s room (she wasn’t there, the new wallpaper was a surprise for her). My mother ended the argument by picking up my sister’s glass piggy bank and throwing it directly at my father’s head. He ducked, it smashed on the wall and my mother grabbed me and stormed out of the house (we went shopping and to lunch – oh God! no wonder I’m gay!).
Had my father done that to my mother, even if he’d missed, it would have meant a divorce, and I don’t think anyone, even the priest, would have criticized her decision. But my Dad’s response was to finish the wallpaper beautifully, with little muss or fuss after we left. The violent action worked to snap him out of the cycle of anger and frustration he’d gotten into fighting the glue, etc., and he got over it.
The reality is, even in 1975 or so and even in a family where the woman was better educated and made more money, as my mother did, the power was in the man’s hands. It may not be seem politically correct to see Joan’s actions in the light of this fact, but I think we have to in order to really gauge what she’s done.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
I also liked it when Don punched Jimmy Barrett in the face.
Really? I thought Don punching Jimmy Barrett was pathetic. Don fucks the man’s wife and then punches him?? Because Jimmy had the balls to confront Don about it? It was low and cowardly, especially since Jimmy is tiny compared to Don. Even Don scolded himself afterwards saying it was a “real Archibald Whitman maneuver”. Not an applause-worthy moment in my opinion.
I think Joan’s vase-to-the-head was…understandable. I think anyone can lash out violently in moments of intense frustration, even people who are non-violent 99% of the time. I don’t think you have to go so far as labelling it domestic violence.
October 27th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
It is a total double standard, but it is a double standard born of the inherent power differential between men and women, particularly when you look at the time we are talking about.
BINGO.
October 27th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
falafel, I remember his name is Greg. Look at the quote, I use “Greg” in it. He is a rapist. He raped a woman. I don’t think it’s a slur to call it like I see it and I honestly have no problem dehumanizing rapists. I could give a shit if he’s ever rounded as a character. BECAUSE HE’S A RAPIST.
I think if you’ve been reading this site for a while you will see that we take rape very seriously indeed. Which does not preclude a nickname. I can be both serious and unserious at the same time. I’m amazing that way.
October 27th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
I never said it was a false slur. Dehumanise away if it makes you feel so amazing. I just don’t think the writers are dehumanising Greg’s character. Is Matt Weiner as wrong as I am for making Greg more rounded?
October 27th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
I’m still reading the list and am only on #49 but I needed to hit on a few ideas regarding military doctors. I’m the forth generation in my family to serve my country, my daughter makes it 5. Five generations. As a military brat I encountered atrocious, I mean real horror stories of treatment at the hands of military hospital doctors and dentists. I think it fell under the “the times” category of doctors and dentists being “gods” and all knowing so you never questioned them. My parents thought my little sister and I were just being babies when we recounted the terrible pain the dentist did to us. I was mauled by a dog at the age of 11 and the military doctor sewed up my wounds with out any novacaine. 23 stitches in all. I remember my mother fleeing the exam room while I was screaming bloody hell. When Greg came in and announced he’d enlisted, my brain went from “no brain fingers” to “yep I had a doctor like that”. Like any profession, you’ll have the good and the bad and like anything the bad is always going to be more memorable than the good. I’ve had the enjoyable experience of meeting excellent military doctors and know a couple personally who served in Nam. So it’s not all bad. ..and by the way, do you notice the way a lot of us here at BoK get really REALLY miffed when someone disses Joan? I love Joan. She’ll end up being one of my all time forever faves when this whole show is said and done. I love Joan. Thank you MW for giving her to us.
October 27th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Yeah, Don screwed Jimmy’s wife (or was it the other way around, and Jimmy’s wife screwed Don?) but it was some kind of awesome to me anyway.
October 27th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
CPT_Doom,
I know I don’t do this often enough, and I really should: but thank you. Thank you for taking the time to delve into issues (like this one) as delicately and thoroughly as you do, and for using examples from your own life to illuminate when necessary.
And I hope your lunch that day with your mom was delicious.
falafel, I agree that names expressed in certain ways can make light of a situation or an action — which is why I prefer to call Greg Harris Doctor Rapist. I find this name to be a more apt definition of his character, at least until we have a better clinical definition of what he really is (such as Doctor Sociopath or Doctor-Please-Don’t-Search-the-Basement,-Officer).
Okay. Can we get back to talking about the catsuit now?
October 27th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
#94 Zouli
My God, I’m sorry. And glad you survived.
Welcome, and thanks!
October 27th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
#90: I thought Don punching Jimmy Barrett was pathetic. Don fucks the man’s wife and then punches him?? Because Jimmy had the balls to confront Don about it? It was low and cowardly, especially since Jimmy is tiny compared to Don. Even Don scolded himself afterwards saying it was a “real Archibald Whitman maneuver”. Not an applause-worthy moment in my opinion.
Don slugs Jimmy because Jimmy intimated to Betty they’d had an affair.
October 27th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
“and by the way, do you notice the way a lot of us here at BoK get really REALLY miffed when someone disses Joan? I love Joan. She’ll end up being one of my all time forever faves when this whole show is said and done. I love Joan. Thank you MW for giving her to us.”
And WHY do we love Joan?
October 27th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Can we just give a heads up to Sam Page who plays the despised Greg. I’m sort of feeling sorry for him, although I’m sure the paycheck and exposure compensate.
October 27th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Doctor-Please-Don’t-Search-the-Basement,-Officer).
That one actually *is* funny.
Listen, I was just supporting another posters comment. I wish I hadn’t said anything now. It’s very hard to speak openly when opinions are being attacked with sarcasm. Can I just ask if the Lipp sisters want me to stop posting on their blog? Because the hostility is very alienating. If there is a problem with my posts, please say. I don’t think I’ve broken any rules but I’d rather have a polite warning than a patronising bitchslap.
October 27th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
#99 I love her because she’s beautiful, intelligent, and visually stimulating. One of the many reasons I watch this show is the pleasure I get visually. MW has taken the times and somehow imbued them with sharpness and razor wit and some kinda mystery fabric dye that makes every damn frame of the show pop out and slap me in the face with every emotion possible. When Joan is on the screen I know I’m going to be amused, infatuated, shocked, excited, sad, .. the list goes on and on with her. I can only point to the many many many descriptions of Joan right here at BoK. She’s everything. I still watch the show and enjoy it like any of the rabid baskets here.. but when Joan shows up the pleasure is amped up several notches. When my sister and I discuss the show every week there is always one line repeated when Joan isn’t in that episode.. I MISS JOANIE! Well.. two lines actually I MISS JOANIE! I WANT JOANIE BACK! She’s just an exceptional character in a show filled with exceptional characters, she’s just more vivid. Wow.. I can go on but I just read the cat suit comment.. amped up wont cut it now.
October 27th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
I like what Christina Hendricks said about Joan in the commentary with the writers, talking about the Babylon episode. I don’t recall what she said verbatim, but it was something along the lines of:
“It’s like Joan walks around with her pants full of sass.”
I love the gentleness and playfulness of her relationship with Roger. Her line in the hotel room, “Roger, if you had your way I’d be stranded in a paperweight with my legs in the air.” And delivered with palpable affection.
I love that Joan knows who she is.
She’s astute about people.
She’s brilliantly resilient, as many here have said.
She’s got a Yankee-style steel magnolia thing going on.
And the disappointment that is Greg is a gaping hole. He can’t SEE her or HEAR her, let alone GET her. Hence, the vase whacking.
October 27th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Apologies for the run on typing. No clue how you guys make the paragraphs happen. doesn’t seem to work for me.
October 27th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Doh! (left arrow symbol)enter(right arrow symbol) was before ‘doesn’t work for me’. Sorry
October 27th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
I have your back falafel, especially since you were just supporting my post. My point was that Greg seems to get the worst of it when Don/Pete/Roger do some pretty horrible things too.
Don – steals identity, alienates brother to suicide, etc.
Pete – misogynist at work, forces himself on babysitter, etc.
Roger- racist, Sexually harrassed twin models, etc.
I’m just calling it like I see it. Now more catsuits!
October 27th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
What #103 said.
October 27th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Thanks Mike C. I think the simple difference is that Don, Pete and Roger are main characters. I feel invested in them. I feel I know them, even if I also know their massive flaws. Greg has a smaller supporting role (like Jane who is also mercilessly despised) so it is easier to demonise, because we have no big investment anyway. The story is never told from Greg’s point-of-view. We only see him through Joan’s plotlines.
So I see the reason, but it would be tiresome to call Roger Mr Blackface in every post, wouldn’t it? I think Weiner wants us to see the people behind the “horrible things” they do and in S3 the writers have made Greg a person. An incredibly crappy person, but still…
October 27th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Right. There is morality and there is who we are invested in. Both are valid. And like everyone seems to agree, we LOVE Joan. I love Joan. And naturally, there is extra venom for those who hurt her because we are repulsed by both his actions and whom the actions hurt.
October 27th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
**Don slugs Jimmy because Jimmy intimated to Betty they’d had an affair.**
Which was the truth of course. Though I guess he could have just confronted Don directly.
Does the “code of men” still apply when you’re the cuckold?
October 27th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
And like everyone seems to agree, we LOVE Joan
Oh, the writers knew they would hurt the fans when they hurt our Joanie. It is a natural reaction. There was a lot of anger at Don when he yelled at Peggy and was heartless towards Sal, because we love Peggy and Sal. But then Don punching Jimmy is Great! Even though it was assault and Don had already wronged Jimmy. But Jimmy was an offensive comedian who we weren’t invested in, so again – moral judgement is not really doled out in a fair way. Which is why I just try to be less judgemental in general about this show.
October 27th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
I loved this scene. It is right up there with Betty’s “I’m so sad” scene from season one. The women in MAD MEN are utterly compelling, and often the ones we are all rooting for. These occasional outbursts of umbrage keep me tuned in.
Tony Soprano’s sharp-tongued and long suffering wife Carmela, played by Edie Falco, once threw a vase at Tony Soprano across the room. See it here! – http://sopranos.exeterstreet.net/jerseyboys.html – love the parallels between this one.
October 27th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Or, to sum up, Greg is a whiny, insensitive bitch of a rapist. And those people do sometimes deserve a vase across the head.
October 27th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Yes, Greg is a rapist in every sense of the word. However, I also find the term “McRapist” to be making light of situation, but for a very particular reason. It conjures up “imitation” for me. If McDonald’s is “imitation” food, and we’ve adopted “Mc” in ways such as “McMansion” for things that are inferior products of global capitalism (this is clearly where this came from), then what does “McRapist” mean? He’s a quick, inferior, imitation of a rapist? I’m not here to change anyone’s mind or opinion (or stop them from using it – I understand the anger at Greg, who was in the wrong), just trying to express why, in my opinion, I find it a somewhat glib way of dealing with a serious topic.
I totally agree with 108 – it’s easier to relate to and overlook the main characters who do awful things, while passing judgment on characters who we see less of. It’s the nature of the beast.
Ok, I think I’ve said about all I have to say on this topic. (Deborah, thanks for pulling this into it’s own post, I think the topic was a good one!)
October 27th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
I don’t know. I think the vase-smashing was kind of cartoony, and Greg’s rape of Joan was anything but. (I kept thinking, “What the heck is that thing made of that it shatters that easily and doesn’t even physically injure Greg, not even a cut? Movie material, obvs.”)
Joan may not have thought what happened to her was “rape,” but that doesn’t mean she wasn’t traumatized by it, even if she doesn’t consciously acknowledge it. I do think it went into her data bank of evidence against him that’s been building up all this time, right up until she clocked him, even if that database calculated in her conscious mind as “dumb-ass insensitive caveman” rather than “abuser.” She’s been almost ludicrously patient with him, coolly defusing arguments, providing endless succor, being limitlessly flexible. Oh, you told me to leave my great job, and now I have to go find a shitty one because you’re such an assbagel that you couldn’t be honest with me? No problem! (I kept thinking of that song “Thin Line Between Love and Hate,” where the philandering husband’s wife was just endlessly sweet and patient with him, until she snapped and “here I am lying in the hospital bandaged from feet to head.”)
And no, I don’t see her living on a base at Fort McArmpit either, not for very long. She got into this for the Manhattan pied-a-terre and house in the country. Although I’m perplexed that so many people (not here, but elsewhere) think Greg enlisting equals his getting shot in combat; it’s highly unlikely that a doctor would be asked to serve in combat, even though it would still be plenty dangerous to be in ‘Nam in a non-combat role.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
I wish we’d gotten to know Greg more, to see what made Joan fall in love with him. The first real character revelation whe had of him was the rape scene.
One thing I was wondering about was what a military surgeon’s income would be. The very first time we saw Joan she talked about having a house in the country “if you play your cards right”; I think to her material comfort/wealth is part of what she expected from marriage. Will Greg be able to support her in the way she imagined?
Also, does Joan WANT children? She said Greg does but I don’t remember her ever expressing an opinion one way or the other.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
falafel, you are of course welcome to post here. Provided people stay out of picking at personalities or typifying one another (and the rest of the comment policy), anything goes. I often use sarcasm, but I try very hard to never use it about people. I may think your premise is false and be sarcastic about your premise, but if I am sarcastic about you, then I deserve my wrist slapped just as much as anyone I’ve moderated for that.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
MD Man, “Mc” has two meanings. One is the one you describe. On Grey’s Anatomy, it means the nickname for a doctor, e.g. McDreamy, McSteamy, and McCrazy.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
#1 “Joan is the dominent one here”
I’m sure someone has thought of this before at some point, but something just became clear to me: Joan is the naturally dominant one in the relationship because she’s more intelligent, experienced, and competent than Greg is. Greg knows this, and he hates it. He’s constantly trying to assert his dominance. He feels that her previous sexual experiences undermine him, so he asserts his power by raping her. He does it again to a lesser extent when he makes her perform at the dinner party. He dismisses the advice she gives him because he can’t stand that she knows more than he does about how to succeed professionally. I think he cares for her in a way, but he can’t accept that she excels in areas where he fails.
#34 and #89
Thank you! The rape and the vase-smashing are not morally equivalent acts.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:06 am
# 11 Scott Amen!
October 28th, 2009 at 4:03 am
# Thanks for answering, Deb. I just found the sarcasm hostile and belittling in this case and I didn’t feel in any position to respond to it, because you are the moderator and I have no idea what you might deem trollish. But when a mod is CAPLOCKING at you and ridiculing your opinion, it doesn’t feel like your posts are very welcome.
October 28th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Point taken.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:46 am
One point that seems to get lost at times is the difference in “times” in comparison to today. Many of the reactions that we all have are based on “today’s times” and “today’s thinking”. For the younger generation, we have all read and known that domestic violence was treated much, much differently in the 60’s and 70’s than it is today. It was common for Police to enter a domestic violence situation in the 60’s and do absolutely nothing stating that it was a private situation and to be handled personally. My mom was a victim of domestic violence and the police would come and go with no intervention. At the hospital, they never even asked what her injuries were from. IT was not questioned. Even the church told her to go back home and “work it out”. She has stated many times that you just did not leave. Where was she to go and how would she support my sister and I? Today women make up close to 60% of the work force, there is choice and freedom that was not available to people like my mother or they thought so. Whether it was either spouse committing domestic violence, it was treated much differently and many reactions posted are according to today’s standards. Please don’t take this that I am condoning it in any way, it was just handled differently and people had much different thoughts about it. To be bashed in the head with a vase was probably considered minor when there were women who ended up in the hospital with major injuries and still no intervention. My mom was one of them. There are also many reactions to Betty the housecat. Again, a “housecat” was not uncommon in the 60’s and only those who were around in that time can truly understand what women faced. It is such a different life with freedom and choice, who knows how anyone would react unless you are living in that moment.
With regard to women in the 60’s and 70’s, Joan would have been considered very resourceful and a strong women even if she made a “poor” choice in a mate. People did not live together nor did they have long courtships as is common today. It is very difficult to see ones flaws in a short period of time. As I like to say, anyone can “put on a show” for a short period of time, it is only when the acting gets tired, that the true persona is identified. Many times people did not have enough length of a courtship to see the true persona. Greg raped her not too long before the wedding. I for one don’t think that she had the time or the “times” to process it. That does not make Joan any less smart. She is one sassy, competent, resourceful woman who attempts to make the best out of any situation and work it. That is a SMART person.
My father-in-law says that people think way too hard today about their spouses and the notion of commitment is too frivolous. He married in 1954. We have had many great conversations surrounding their youth because of this show although they state that their lives were never as glamourous as what we see on Mad Men. As my daughter would say and my father-in-law would agree wholeheartedly, you get what you get and you don’t throw a fit. That is the way it was. He will freely admit that the marriage was not the happiest (celebrating 55 years this year), but would never have dreamed of leaving. Different Time, Different Place.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:55 am
you get what you get and you don’t throw a fit. I know, I know – Joan did! LOL
October 28th, 2009 at 11:08 am
I continue to return to this thread for so many reasons, fascinated with the perspective of those who are younger and athough they love Joan for all the reasons we all love her, cannot possibly understand the presuppositions under which Joan is operating. Jill E. has offered astute perspective, rounded out by her father-in-law’s views. For those of us who grew up in the 50s, our hearts are breaking for Joan . . . we know she’ll make it, but we know the price she is paying. It took much courage and energy to navigate the system. And I’ll add this (one more time) to Jill E’s observation, “You take what you get and do what you can.” That was just the way it was. Smart and feisty women became adept at “managing” what they got.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Joan may be smart, competent and “sassy”, but she is not perfect. I agree with falafel’s take on her character. For all of her intelligence, Joan ended up marrying a man for all of the wrong reasons – for pride and appearances. She was never able to correctly read or understand Peggy. What does that really say about her? That deep down, she is no different from Betty, Don, Pete or anyone else who has married for superficial reasons? As for the argument that Joan has a soul and Betty does not, I can’t agree with that assessment. I would say that both women have souls. But their souls are expressed in different ways.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
“She was never able to correctly read or understand Peggy.”
i could not disagree more. i think she’s always been able to read peggy very well. that she doesn’t relate to what motivates peggy is an entirely different thing.
again, i don’t think that has ANYTHING to do with joan’s intelligence. neither does her marrying greg for the wrong reasons.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
I have to disagree. I don’t think that Joan has ever been able to read Peggy very well. I still think of that scene when she discovered that Peggy had no interest in Paul Kinsey. Joan seemed very surprised by her discovery.
I don’t deny that Joan is intelligent. However, I don’t consider her decision to marry Greg as a smart one.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
#32: “Joan is not that smart. And I believe that Weiner has made this clear ever since Season 1.”
It’s good to be flexible!
October 28th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
#118 – Thanks, Deborah! I didn’t even put that together. Duh!
October 29th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Crystal ball entry: Presumably Joan will be at Roger’s wedding, if it goes ahead as planned. Will she be the only one to turn up, and they fall into each other’s arms? Or is it just Roger has another coronary, but Joan copes as usual?