Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right… and who is dead.
Vizzini: But it’s so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy’s? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You’ve made your decision then?
Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
Vizzini: Wait til I get going! Now, where was I?
Man in Black: Australia.
Vizzini: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the powder’s origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You’re just stalling now.
Vizzini: You’d like to think that, wouldn’t you? You’ve beaten my giant, which means you’re exceptionally strong, so you could’ve put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you’ve also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Man in Black: You’re trying to trick me into giving away something. It won’t work.
Vizzini: It has worked! You’ve given everything away! I know where the poison is!
Man in Black: Then make your choice.
Vizzini: I will, and I choose – What in the world can that be?
[Vizzini gestures up and away from the table. The Mad in Black looks. Vizzini swaps the goblets]
Man in Black: What? Where? I don’t see anything.
Vizzini: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter.First, let’s drink. Me from my glass, and you from yours.
[Vizzini and the Man in Black drink ]
Man in Black: You guessed wrong.
Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong! That’s what’s so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders – The most famous of which is “never get involved in a land war in Asia” – but only slightly less well-known is this: “Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line”! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha…
[Vizzini stops suddenly,his smile frozen on his face and falls down dead]
Buttercup: And to think, all that time it was your cup that was poisoned.
Man in Black: They were both poisoned. I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.
Trying to guess at Matt’s next move.
There are a lot of threads to the web of this season, and you could run this conjecture conversation on any one of them (and certainly we have, here at the Basket), but here’s the one that’s particularly twisting me up:
I think Miss Farrell is batshit crazy first she seems like a free spirit that isn’t the subject of the maypole scene then she is this really caring teacher but we’re all a little trepidatious to even see her back onscreen but okay she’s sweet and forward thinking but then she drunk dials Don? really? and then there’s the eclipse which was the turning point for me where she in my opinion entirely invented that Don was hitting on her and btw spoke aloud of the subject in front of the children both of which took me back to the schoolroom scene and had me rethink her boundaries and proclivity towards oversharing and things inched forward I was certain that she was batshit crazy but possibly in the back of my mind I’m thinking Matt doesn’t want us to know yet her craziness will be a reveal but THEN I’m thinking wait what if Matt is actually bummed that viewers are getting how crazy she is earlier than he’d wanted us to when they are starting their affair no but wait for it because NOW I’m thinking waaaaitaminute Matt knows we’re smart enough to pick up on it all so maybe she’s not that crazy or if she is he won’t even reveal it because we keep waiting for the other shoe to drop but maybe the damn shoe is that nothing ever comes of the crazy at least not until next season when she is Mrs. Don Draper OHMYGOD THAT COULD BE THE SHOE but would Matt really go that far I mean I don’t think there is a far Matt wouldn’t go but really? is that the direction this is taking? or is it just the crazy train.
[breath]
No seriously just hand me the iocane. I am never gonna survive this.
Three episodes to go, ‘cases.
130 Responses to “I can clearly NOT choose the wine in front of YOU.”
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It just seems a little incongruous that she’d major in Anthropology — not English Lit or something a little less demanding — and then go to NYC and become a model.
Mmmm… maybe, maybe not. Anthro was a nice liberal artsy kind of major. I don’t think it was any more demanding than anything else. My roommate from college majored in anthropology, married an investment banker soon after graduating, moved to Briarcliff Manor NY, had three kids, and last I heard is a Junior Leaguer. And we graduated in the 1970s, not the 1950s. Betty lives on!
(She did however, smoke marijuana. Whether she’d admit that now or not, I don’t know!)
Not sure what thread this thought would go under, but here goes.
I know a lot of people have done a tremendous amount of bellyaching about this season concentrating so much on the Don/Betty relationship. I also know that there has been a lot of speculation about how much focus will be put on the Kennedy assassination in context with the show. I think that the (more interesting to most basketcases, including myself) other characters have taken a backseat this season for the sole purpose of ending the season with the Kennedy assassination being dealt with on the show in a big way (“next week, on a very special epsidode of Mad Men” haha). I know MW said during last season that the topic has been done to death and what more can one add….but there are just too many parallels to Don/Betty and JFK/Jackie to go unnoticed. I think that MW knows that we are missing Peggy, Sal, Joan etc…but Eleven Twenty Two may just end up being the reason for the amount of Draper focus of this season.
Not to be either pessimistic or glib, but Don’s not gonna win this one (and by “this one†I mean, in essence, the entire decade/series), because, well, historically, he didn’t. Or at least, he won’t win it, or even survive it, without undergoing such a major change in character and personality that by the last episode of the series, he won’t be Don anymore (which isn’t so surprising, since technically he was never Don in the first place. So maybe he’ll just end up with Dick? Hmm.).
The point is, the Don Draper of 1961 would be eaten alive by 1972.
————————
To quote the man himself,
Don and his ilk will end up exactly as his alter ego does in the opening credits. Chilling in his chair, relaxing with his favorite harmful substance, pretty much unaffected by the nosedive. By 1972 1982 1992 2002, etc., rich White guys will still control the universe, they'll still wield all the power, own the majority of the world's wealth, and continue to act with impunity — essentially enjoying a privileged lifestyle. In the end, they may find themselves at a newer, bigger table, entertaining a broader spectrum of guests, but make no mistake, it will still be their table, with them sitting at the helm. Despite some of the sucker punches they'll receive throughout the 60s and subsequent decades, they'll emerge practically unscathed.
And not to get too pedantic and buzzkill the thread, brenda, but I think you’re thinking of archeology, not anthropology.
hullaballoo- you are absolutely correct there. Corporations get more powerful from 1963 on. Advertising and media control and manipulate more of the message and rich white males get richer. The beat goes on for them.
I really would argue that the '60s were not as revolutionary as they are remembered to have been. And the current oligarchy repackages our sentimentality for the past and uses it to try and persuade us that we actually got it all back then and screwed it up. And therefore we don't deserve to try it again. I think they pitch that to Gen X and Y crowd today. Look we tried progressivism and humanism back then, your parents just smoked a lot of dope and screwed anything that moved and all that proved liberalism doesn't work.
Now don't expect more. Be good kids and buy a second plasma TV.
Hey Roberta, Tip of the Hat for launching a first rate discussion. Made my day.
Vizzini clearly does not watch MM though. He was not in a position of power; he should have delayed . . . and delayed. . . and delayed.
I made my case for Suzanne yesterday and had fun doing it. I do agree she’s a bit a of a cipher. To forty-five percent of the audience she’s blue and to the rest she’s yellow; big, bright caution light yellow.
I don’t think it’s sloppy writing or bad acting though. We can’t expect to know everything about a character all at once. Joan plays the accordion??! Maybe their intent is to start her out very opaque and then layer on the colors a scene or a line of dialogue at a time. Probably though in less than three weeks, like it has been hinted, we’ll look back and see things clearer; maybe vivid shades of blue, maybe the dull browns of boiled bunny.
Esme- Methinks Mona knows enough.
gypsy in the house!!! Do you sleep?
I agree with hullaballoo. Don will see all of the changes in the coming decade. Some of them will amuse him, some of them will scare him, but he will survive.
Don will have no problem with qualified women being promoted. Homosexuality is tricky-it's still a major issue for some people. Don doesn't care what people do in their private life as long as it doesn't effect Sterling Cooper. Kurt is still there, and given how gossip travels, Don has to know Kurt's homosexual by now.
Don will have a job in advertising as long as he wants because he knows how to reach a certain segment of the population, conservatives/adults. Peggy knows how to reach women. Kurt and Smitty know to reach the younger generation.
@Zouli Pious–Thanks…I was aware of CafePress but figured that you couldn't just up and jack Mad Men lines and put it on a t-shirt like that. I'm seriously thinking about doing it now. LOL
Sorry, Roberta and Deb for all the Off-topic in this wonderful thread. I'll just keep reading silently now.
I'm waiting for someone with photoshop skilz to make me a Pete Campbell t-shirt with "A thing like that!" on it somewhere.
Love that one Donny Brook….a "hells bells, Trudy!" would be nice, too.
My Mad Men t-shirt dream is either the secretary riding Roger with big explosion lines around the image, or the Joan of "The Gold Violin" and her death glare at Jane as she approaches. My t-shirt, however, would be accurate enough to include her eye lasers.
By 1972 1982 1992 2002, etc., rich White guys will still control the universe, they’ll still wield all the power, own the majority of the world’s wealth, and continue to act with impunity — essentially enjoying a privileged lifestyle.
But Don is different, in that his current position depends almost umbilically on his ability to read the marketplace and create things that his target audience responds to. An interesting parallel is Phil Spector; in 1962, 1963, 1964, he was so hot that even Tom Wolfe was moved to write about him. By 1966, the kind of music he created seemed to belong to a whole other world, as far as record-buying teenagers and young adults were concerned. He still had plenty of money; so will Don. He still worked on interesting projects; so will Don. But he was no longer the "tycoon of teen," and we're moving from a world (1963) where youth was thought to be callow and lacking in depth and knowledge, to a world where that assumption will be turned on its head. His target audience is going to get younger and younger and see things very differently from how he sees them. We're already seeing signs that he's not going to be able to keep up, which probably at least partially explains his Suzanne fetish. (And let's hope he doesn't wind up like Spector.)
Someone like Roger Sterling doesn't have to worry as much about stuff like that; he writes the checks. All he has to do is pick the right people to write them to.
I have a terrible feeling that Don may end up badly injured or even dead by the season finale. But I'll try to stay positive, as I don't think MW would kill off his main character. I admit, I haven't been as pleased with this season as past ones. My emotions are so back and forth about Mr. Draper. Don's affair with Suzanne to me is sloppy and I just don't believe he's really that attracted to her. When he said (something to the effect of) "I don't want to wreck this" to Suzanne, I didn't buy it, I just hated him. I'm just reminded of last season when Don was so intent on winning Betty back, he had said "I didn't respect you", (and I believed him!) but any trace of respect Don and Betty had for each other totally died after their Rome affair. I find them both emotionally shallow this season. And I care less about their affairs than I did about Poor Sal and Joan. (can't wait to see Joan next week). The last time I loved Don this season was when he reassured Sally about baby Gene. But that guy, Don the Father, is as far away from Dick the dick as you can get. Part of me thinks he deserved whatever bad thing out of this he gets, and part of me wants me to come to his senses, and care about his family again. I guess this is a testament to the writing that I care so much about these characters, but I'm seeing elements this season that strike me as contrived (Suzanne's brother wasn't necessary at all). Sometimes I think the writers added stuff just to see "what would happen if…"
The one element of last weeks episode that actually made me say "Yes!" out loud was when Betty found the box. Now that this Pandora Box is open, you know it can only lead to hell. I would like to see Betty meet with Anna, and then they could both conspire against him.
@96 Joyce – excellent observation. I have a friend with a special needs brother (coincidentally Danny, also) and she is very much like Suzanne. Many have thought that she is a little "off," too, but she's truly the ultimate idealist and craves a world where her brother is accepted and well treated. That could partially explain the introduction of the brother that many have felt was wasted screen time. Could just be filling in the pieces of Suzanne's persona while allowing Don to atone for transgressions against his own brother and not foreshadowing big trouble down the road.
I have a son who is high-functioning autistic and, worse, an ex who is bipolar and, let me tell you, gallows humor is necessary to survive sometimes. Dealing with so much stress can also make you sick.
Suzanne's brother is a more realistic depiction of people who have to deal with disability issues – and there is still lots of horrid treatment out in the world for people with disabilities. Her brother gets what's up.
Check into recent cases of teachers and teacher aides abusing autistic kids. Not to mention the casual cruelty of people in life in general.
Then again, maybe my life experiences have made me an incurable cynic. It's easy to be an idealist when you don't actually deal with something day in day out as part of your existential knowledge of the world. (i.e. you don't pay the bills, deal with the outcomes, wonder about the very idea of justice…)
[...] Basketcase Stace thinks t-shirts of quotes would be cool. She suggests: [...]
Apropos of nothing, the Suzanne Farrell Ballet Co is playing Sun night in Berkeley.
hull my friend,
I don't know if that's true.
Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree. You probably know better than I, and certainly history sides with you.
But perhaps the future sides with me?
I just had lunch with one of my friends. She makes a good 20 grand more every year than I do — and that's a lot. She owns several nice homes, which in general she rents to Section 8 families: doesn't need the money. She's happy and creative and is at the point of walking away from her company, which would be more or less the last nail in their coffin.
The state they're in now, they would be paying this woman consultant fees for years.
My friend is the opposite of a white man, and I see the future turning her way. She is not alone, either. Two of my other friends — also Black women — are in similar positions now, where knowledge = power because of a rising demand for their skills.
I wan't always an idealist, hull. But, like the other man said, now I'm a believer.
Maybe we'll just have to meet for a drink in an even-numbered year, and the winner of this tiny dispute pays. Yes? If the white man is still ascendant, I'll be happy to buy … but if I'm right, you're buying me my single malt.
Deal?
that was awesome.
Thanks for clearing up the attribution of that quote (#2). I first assumed it was from "My Dinner with Andre," because of the photo of Wally Shawn. Duh…
I don't know, Anne. Maybe we're each seeing the color blue…
From my vantage point, I don't see that the 60s (and, to a lesser extent, the 70s) resulted in that great a power shift. The same people still "write the checks," as Meowser noted above. They're just writing them to a broader range of people.
The rising stature of women and people of color and gays and people with disabilities has not in any way caused the downfall, extinction, subjugation or erosion of rich White males and the privileges they enjoy. Those guys really haven't given up or lost anything (well, anything of value) as a result of the gains made by others. So what if they can't (or rather, don't dare) call people N!663R to their faces any more, or can't pinch a woman on the butt in the work place. Are those really such huge losses in the overall scheme of things? I don't think so. In fact, I think their lives have actually IMPROVED because of these changes. They're actually better off now than they ever were. Longer life expectancy, more money, more ways to make and shield money, better mobility, relaxed societal constraints and expectations — they actually have more freedom now than before. Despite the shock to the system they received in the sixties, they still have everything…and so much of it.
As I said above, it is still their table. Thankfully, though, it's a far bigger one than before; the guest list is more varied; the conversation, while maybe not to everyone's liking is certainly more interesting; and the menu provides a much better selection of food and wine. I don't think that's a bad thing…
I read posts on other (more political) boards from White Male Christians claiming that they are now being oppressed & can't get good jobs because of competition from all them women & minorities. Close reading reveals:
1) Right now, the job market is tough for everybody in many places, and
2) The WMC's doing the loudest bitching are losers & will always be losers.
Lots of WMC's are still doing fine. Hey, some of my best friends are WMC's!
But I work in a field that is extremely diverse & I like it.
not_Bridget, if they're looking for jobs, then they're not signing payroll checks. I'm talking about "owners," not workers — not even managers. It's as much about class as it is about race and sex.
It's interesting because the main people at whom "the cultural revolution" was aimed, are the ones that lost or suffered the least because of it.
These past few years of my life have been most interesting watching a “cultural phenomenon” such as Mad Men. I have sat many a night wanting to comment on the various aspects each show has given to all of us. So I thank you all also for sharing your views so honestly and openly, this takes great courage. I am confident in my conclusions; however after all these years, I still had hesitation. Then I thought if it personal to me like this and it is personal to all who watch……Oh I could image how personal this to Mr. & Mrs. Weiner. So I thank also for this opportunity. WHY? WHY? WHY? Are not talking enough about these children. They are being abused mentally and emotional so badly everyday and We can’t even see them! Where’s Peggy’s Baby? I thought she was with the mother and the sister but not so sure?!? We have no regard for woman and children….Are we better or has technology fooled us into believing we are?!? AH! HA! Matthew Weiner said he liked tarot cards and fortune telling.(p.s. I do too) Here’s what happens to Sally, Bobby & Gene. Sally becomes a survivor but in the end she always turns out ok just by the skin of her teeth. Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie, Sally had to let him go because she’s not his mother. Gene….Betty is still using Gene for her gain. God Bless Michele
I don't know why but it surprises me that so many people dislike Suzanne Farrell so much. I'm not saying I love her but I think we don't really know her yet. It will be interesting to see if and how her character is fleshed out. I do somewhat agree with people who feel maybe it's a bit heavy-handed how clearly she is an archetype of the "new" 60s but… I don't know, it's working for me.
And I really really don't think she's crazy. I think she's different ("or maybe exactly the same.") Her drunk-dial to the Drapers was a little odd and I know some people have commented about the obviousness of her bra strap hanging out in that scene but I've always wondered if that was what Don was imagining. (Crazy I know!) Plus she knew when she called that Betty might (and actually was more likely to) answer the phone.
I do think that Don (Dick) and Suzanne are in love – and Don is definitely in over his head (as Roger warned him he was). That hand-holding ON THE TRAIN really clinched it for me. I mean here's a guy who's so invested in keeping his secrets he carries a key for his locked box of them around with him at nearly all times, he never came out and admitted his affairs to Betty (only that he was 'disrespectful' to her) and he's holding hands on a train full of commuters who live in his town with the undoubtedly recognizable to many schoolteacher from that town??? He's lost control.
So what do I think is going to happen? I do think the Draper marriage is headed for the end, either by Don or Betty and I'm not sure which one of them will pull the trigger. I keep thinking back to an interview I read with Matt (on here, I'm sure!) when he mentioned he really wanted to show Betty still pregnant and show this time when both Betty and Don were hopeful and were really trying.
And I think that time is over. It ended really when they came back at Rome . That romance and passion they had in Rome was pretend. Just like their marriage is at this point.
Not altogether unrelated but as an aside am I the only one who has thought about the connection with "Farrel" – feral?
[...] Suzanne got out of the car and walked home. And then the next morning, she was delicate, vulnerable, a little weepy, and very sympathetic. That’s not a gun, you think, that’s a hurt young woman! All this time, you think, all season, it seemed like she was a loaded gun, and now it turns out she isn’t. How clever! How smart! [...]