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	<title>Comments on: Bryan Batt:  &quot;Good old Sal, we love him&quot;</title>
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		<title>By: Dark Peggy</title>
		<link>http://www.lippsisters.com/2009/10/12/bryan-batt-good-old-sal-we-love-him/comment-page-2/#comment-34310</link>
		<dc:creator>Dark Peggy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 17:41:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lippsisters.com/?p=7934#comment-34310</guid>
		<description>@Richard 59and 63, what exactly was it that Mama Louise took out of context about your comments?  I did not see ANYTHING to take out of the context, you used the phrase &quot;they aren&#039;t crackers from the south,&quot;  and I, and obviously Mama Louise, did not see anything in that statement that seemed to be ironic, or satirical, or to indicate that you were making a joke.  First you go to using what is something of a racialized term that is bound to offend some and then you go on to say that you were offended by Connie saying he was Republican like everyone else (note the folks he was explicitly referring to were  NOT people who were attending Roger&#039;s party) and then showing Roger in blackface, even though that happened before the scene.  I suppose perhaps you were inferring that since Roger is Republican, as he mentione before, and people at other events at his club are Republican the fact that he would do blackface demonstrates racism on his part and by extension to the rest of the people at his club.  A spurious leap of logic at best, particularly because at that time although Barry Goldwater was pusing the party in a different direction,  not too many of the old time virulently racist Southern Democrats, or Dixiecrats as they briefly called themselves, had moved over to the Republican party and although John Kennedy and later Lyndon Johnson changed the nature of democratic party by favoring civil rights and as Johnson himself said &quot;losing the south for a generation&quot; or something to that effect, it hasn&#039;t happened yet.  At that time there were still many people in the Republican party who could by today&#039;s standards be considered liberal and the realignment of the Republicans had not yet occured and in the south many whites, especially those who were from old Southern families, who held virulently racists views were Democrats or becoming independent of a sort before being Republican.   So the logic tying those incidents together seems to be pretty weak.   If anything there were more Southern Democrats opposed to civil rights and more Northern Republicans in favor of them.

Also, even though I am not white, I was taken aback by seeing the term &quot;cracker&quot; on this site and thought it seemed a bit inflamotory.  I&#039;m pretty liberal and have some very strong views on what constitutes racism and what does not and some issues I have with the modern day Republican party (which are totally irrelevant here) and the use of that term sort of bugged me too.  I try to be very careful in what I say in discussions about race with most white people b/c I find it to be a very difficult discussion and, particularly if they are friends or are just nice people who I don&#039;t want to get into an argument with, I avoid using inflamatory words and try to get across my point without hitting them over the head and because some people cannot handle my version of what the truth is.  Whereas you felt free to jump in with inflammatory language when it seemingly was at best tangentially related to the topic at hand. I say all that to say, that you are the one who went there with using that term and then you defend yourself using an example that has absolutely nothing to do with what you are saying initally and are trying somehow to show how something that the show did offended you thus deflecting from what you said, and brought up.  I don&#039;t care what race you are, using terms like cracker casually especially in a forum like this is uncalled for and trying to paint the show as somehow being offensive to Republicans when from a historical perspective it doesn&#039;t even make sense to the time, seems somewhat unthinking or naive at best and disingenous at worst.  I say all that to say, I found the cracker comment offensive and I found your follow up comments to be an annoying attempt to bring modern day partisanship into it in an instance where it is not accurate and to somehow make yourself or Repbulicans  a martyr or derided group when that is not the case to be offensive.  I don&#039;t know if I&#039;m making sense b/c I&#039;m peeved right now but in essense, I found your apology offensive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Richard 59and 63, what exactly was it that Mama Louise took out of context about your comments?  I did not see ANYTHING to take out of the context, you used the phrase &#8220;they aren&#8217;t crackers from the south,&#8221;  and I, and obviously Mama Louise, did not see anything in that statement that seemed to be ironic, or satirical, or to indicate that you were making a joke.  First you go to using what is something of a racialized term that is bound to offend some and then you go on to say that you were offended by Connie saying he was Republican like everyone else (note the folks he was explicitly referring to were  NOT people who were attending Roger&#8217;s party) and then showing Roger in blackface, even though that happened before the scene.  I suppose perhaps you were inferring that since Roger is Republican, as he mentione before, and people at other events at his club are Republican the fact that he would do blackface demonstrates racism on his part and by extension to the rest of the people at his club.  A spurious leap of logic at best, particularly because at that time although Barry Goldwater was pusing the party in a different direction,  not too many of the old time virulently racist Southern Democrats, or Dixiecrats as they briefly called themselves, had moved over to the Republican party and although John Kennedy and later Lyndon Johnson changed the nature of democratic party by favoring civil rights and as Johnson himself said &#8220;losing the south for a generation&#8221; or something to that effect, it hasn&#8217;t happened yet.  At that time there were still many people in the Republican party who could by today&#8217;s standards be considered liberal and the realignment of the Republicans had not yet occured and in the south many whites, especially those who were from old Southern families, who held virulently racists views were Democrats or becoming independent of a sort before being Republican.   So the logic tying those incidents together seems to be pretty weak.   If anything there were more Southern Democrats opposed to civil rights and more Northern Republicans in favor of them.</p>
<p>Also, even though I am not white, I was taken aback by seeing the term &#8220;cracker&#8221; on this site and thought it seemed a bit inflamotory.  I&#8217;m pretty liberal and have some very strong views on what constitutes racism and what does not and some issues I have with the modern day Republican party (which are totally irrelevant here) and the use of that term sort of bugged me too.  I try to be very careful in what I say in discussions about race with most white people b/c I find it to be a very difficult discussion and, particularly if they are friends or are just nice people who I don&#8217;t want to get into an argument with, I avoid using inflamatory words and try to get across my point without hitting them over the head and because some people cannot handle my version of what the truth is.  Whereas you felt free to jump in with inflammatory language when it seemingly was at best tangentially related to the topic at hand. I say all that to say, that you are the one who went there with using that term and then you defend yourself using an example that has absolutely nothing to do with what you are saying initally and are trying somehow to show how something that the show did offended you thus deflecting from what you said, and brought up.  I don&#8217;t care what race you are, using terms like cracker casually especially in a forum like this is uncalled for and trying to paint the show as somehow being offensive to Republicans when from a historical perspective it doesn&#8217;t even make sense to the time, seems somewhat unthinking or naive at best and disingenous at worst.  I say all that to say, I found the cracker comment offensive and I found your follow up comments to be an annoying attempt to bring modern day partisanship into it in an instance where it is not accurate and to somehow make yourself or Repbulicans  a martyr or derided group when that is not the case to be offensive.  I don&#8217;t know if I&#8217;m making sense b/c I&#8217;m peeved right now but in essense, I found your apology offensive.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.lippsisters.com/2009/10/12/bryan-batt-good-old-sal-we-love-him/comment-page-2/#comment-34309</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lippsisters.com/?p=7934#comment-34309</guid>
		<description>I thought the comments above about viewing Sal in the light of being &quot;that kind of girl&quot; go perfectly with how Don shakes Sal&#039;s hand in the final moments of the scene - did anyone notice how lamely Don sticks out his hand to Sal, certainly not the kind of respectful, &quot;gentleman&#039;s handshake&quot; he should have given him - I think Don pretty much writes Sal off as just another &quot;woman&quot; of the office (that may been the source of his &quot;you people&quot; comment as well) - it&#039;s as much a sexist attitude as it is homophobic (okay, please don&#039;t get offended and think I think this way - I&#039;m just trying to wrap by brain around Don&#039;s 1963 &quot;gentleman&#039;s code, OKAY?;))</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought the comments above about viewing Sal in the light of being &#8220;that kind of girl&#8221; go perfectly with how Don shakes Sal&#8217;s hand in the final moments of the scene &#8211; did anyone notice how lamely Don sticks out his hand to Sal, certainly not the kind of respectful, &#8220;gentleman&#8217;s handshake&#8221; he should have given him &#8211; I think Don pretty much writes Sal off as just another &#8220;woman&#8221; of the office (that may been the source of his &#8220;you people&#8221; comment as well) &#8211; it&#8217;s as much a sexist attitude as it is homophobic (okay, please don&#8217;t get offended and think I think this way &#8211; I&#8217;m just trying to wrap by brain around Don&#8217;s 1963 &#8220;gentleman&#8217;s code, OKAY?;))</p>
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		<title>By: Peggy Joan</title>
		<link>http://www.lippsisters.com/2009/10/12/bryan-batt-good-old-sal-we-love-him/comment-page-2/#comment-34308</link>
		<dc:creator>Peggy Joan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lippsisters.com/?p=7934#comment-34308</guid>
		<description>In Baltimore, Don got a glimpse through the hotel window of a man in Sal&#039;s room, so considering what Don had just been doing with the stew in a room upstairs, he must have assumed something similar had been happening in Sal&#039;s room, either before or perhaps even after the fire alarm interruption. This is logical, based on what he&#039;s seen.

Don doesn&#039;t know what the audience knows about Sal&#039;s deeply closeted self -- he just goes with what he thinks he&#039;s seen and what he personally knows about the male sex drive. If he assumed that Sal was already sleeping around on Kitty ...

Don&#039;s also rather distracted by everything that&#039;s going on in his life, so he was not his best and kindest self at the time he was confronted with Sal&#039;s firing. Perhaps when Peggy&#039;s problem arose in 1960, Don was feeling more in control of his life and therefore more generous and accommodating.

Neither Harry nor Roger have any idea why Lee Jr. wanted Sal fired -- because Lee Jr. didn&#039;t want them to know. If Harry had any organizational savvy, he would have gone immediately to Don about Lee Jr&#039;s phone call because (a) Don was Sal&#039;s boss and (b) Don&#039;s the best strategic thinker at SC, but would still need a heads up to react more coolly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Baltimore, Don got a glimpse through the hotel window of a man in Sal&#8217;s room, so considering what Don had just been doing with the stew in a room upstairs, he must have assumed something similar had been happening in Sal&#8217;s room, either before or perhaps even after the fire alarm interruption. This is logical, based on what he&#8217;s seen.</p>
<p>Don doesn&#8217;t know what the audience knows about Sal&#8217;s deeply closeted self &#8212; he just goes with what he thinks he&#8217;s seen and what he personally knows about the male sex drive. If he assumed that Sal was already sleeping around on Kitty &#8230;</p>
<p>Don&#8217;s also rather distracted by everything that&#8217;s going on in his life, so he was not his best and kindest self at the time he was confronted with Sal&#8217;s firing. Perhaps when Peggy&#8217;s problem arose in 1960, Don was feeling more in control of his life and therefore more generous and accommodating.</p>
<p>Neither Harry nor Roger have any idea why Lee Jr. wanted Sal fired &#8212; because Lee Jr. didn&#8217;t want them to know. If Harry had any organizational savvy, he would have gone immediately to Don about Lee Jr&#8217;s phone call because (a) Don was Sal&#8217;s boss and (b) Don&#8217;s the best strategic thinker at SC, but would still need a heads up to react more coolly.</p>
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		<title>By: dancewosleeping</title>
		<link>http://www.lippsisters.com/2009/10/12/bryan-batt-good-old-sal-we-love-him/comment-page-2/#comment-34320</link>
		<dc:creator>dancewosleeping</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:17:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lippsisters.com/?p=7934#comment-34320</guid>
		<description>Not the getting caught part, but the self-loathing. It&#039;s a pretty well-established fact that those who protest and loathe the most are those with the most to hide. So much misery, so many lives ruined, because people have been taught that what they feel is wrong. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not the getting caught part, but the self-loathing. It&#039;s a pretty well-established fact that those who protest and loathe the most are those with the most to hide. So much misery, so many lives ruined, because people have been taught that what they feel is wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: dancewosleeping</title>
		<link>http://www.lippsisters.com/2009/10/12/bryan-batt-good-old-sal-we-love-him/comment-page-2/#comment-34319</link>
		<dc:creator>dancewosleeping</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:13:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lippsisters.com/?p=7934#comment-34319</guid>
		<description>Gypsy, 
Like LuckyBully? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gypsy,<br />
Like LuckyBully?</p>
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		<title>By: dancewosleeping</title>
		<link>http://www.lippsisters.com/2009/10/12/bryan-batt-good-old-sal-we-love-him/comment-page-2/#comment-34318</link>
		<dc:creator>dancewosleeping</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:11:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lippsisters.com/?p=7934#comment-34318</guid>
		<description>Sorry about the name-mangling...typing and working don&#039;t mix! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry about the name-mangling&#8230;typing and working don&#039;t mix!</p>
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		<title>By: dancewosleeping</title>
		<link>http://www.lippsisters.com/2009/10/12/bryan-batt-good-old-sal-we-love-him/comment-page-2/#comment-34317</link>
		<dc:creator>dancewosleeping</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:05:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lippsisters.com/?p=7934#comment-34317</guid>
		<description>Ahhh Deberoh, 
I love me that Dan! I would&#039;ve rambled and tangented all over the place to say what he said. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahhh Deberoh,<br />
I love me that Dan! I would&#039;ve rambled and tangented all over the place to say what he said.</p>
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		<title>By: gypsy howell</title>
		<link>http://www.lippsisters.com/2009/10/12/bryan-batt-good-old-sal-we-love-him/comment-page-2/#comment-34316</link>
		<dc:creator>gypsy howell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:59:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lippsisters.com/?p=7934#comment-34316</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&#226;&#8364;&#339;If you&#226;&#8364;&#8482;re dating a homophobe, you&#226;&#8364;&#8482;re dating a guy who&#226;&#8364;&#8482;s secretly a misogynist, who secretly hates you. And you shouldn&#226;&#8364;&#8482;t.&#226;&#8364;&lt;/i&gt; 
 
or you&#039;re dating a self-loathing closeted gay man.  Look at all of our extremely homophobic televangelists and senators who --  gosh, huuuge surprise! -- get caught in gay affairs. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&acirc;&euro;&oelig;If you&acirc;&euro;&trade;re dating a homophobe, you&acirc;&euro;&trade;re dating a guy who&acirc;&euro;&trade;s secretly a misogynist, who secretly hates you. And you shouldn&acirc;&euro;&trade;t.&acirc;&euro;</i> </p>
<p>or you&#039;re dating a self-loathing closeted gay man.  Look at all of our extremely homophobic televangelists and senators who &#8212;  gosh, huuuge surprise! &#8212; get caught in gay affairs.</p>
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		<title>By: Deborah Lipp</title>
		<link>http://www.lippsisters.com/2009/10/12/bryan-batt-good-old-sal-we-love-him/comment-page-2/#comment-34315</link>
		<dc:creator>Deborah Lipp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:54:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lippsisters.com/?p=7934#comment-34315</guid>
		<description>dance, you are absolutely right. Three years ago, on my &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.deborahlipp.com/wordpress/2006/02/09/interview-with-dan-savage/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;personal blog&lt;/a&gt;, I quoted Dan Savage from an&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.avclub.com/content/node/45150&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; interview&lt;/a&gt;. You inspired me to look up the quote: 
 
 
&lt;blockquote&gt;I actually think the solution to homophobia is eradicating misogyny. I think a lot of homophobia is hatred of women repackaged, &#226;&#8364;&#8482;cause gay men seem to preoccupy homophobes the most. It&#226;&#8364;&#8482;s usually about anal sex, and gay men are perceived as taking on the woman&#226;&#8364;&#8482;s role, and women are despised. The woman&#226;&#8364;&#8482;s role is less-than. And in a male-supremacy culture, men who take on the woman&#226;&#8364;&#8482;s role willingly kind of freak out some of the dudes. If you could eradicate misogyny, homophobia would evaporate. That&#226;&#8364;&#8482;s why I always tell women, &#226;&#8364;&#339;If you&#226;&#8364;&#8482;re dating a homophobe, you&#226;&#8364;&#8482;re dating a guy who&#226;&#8364;&#8482;s secretly a misogynist, who secretly hates you. And you shouldn&#226;&#8364;&#8482;t.&#226;&#8364;&lt;/blockquote&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dance, you are absolutely right. Three years ago, on my <a target="_blank" href="http://www.deborahlipp.com/wordpress/2006/02/09/interview-with-dan-savage/"  rel="nofollow">personal blog</a>, I quoted Dan Savage from an<a target="_blank" href="http://www.avclub.com/content/node/45150"  rel="nofollow"> interview</a>. You inspired me to look up the quote: </p>
<blockquote><p>I actually think the solution to homophobia is eradicating misogyny. I think a lot of homophobia is hatred of women repackaged, &acirc;&euro;&trade;cause gay men seem to preoccupy homophobes the most. It&acirc;&euro;&trade;s usually about anal sex, and gay men are perceived as taking on the woman&acirc;&euro;&trade;s role, and women are despised. The woman&acirc;&euro;&trade;s role is less-than. And in a male-supremacy culture, men who take on the woman&acirc;&euro;&trade;s role willingly kind of freak out some of the dudes. If you could eradicate misogyny, homophobia would evaporate. That&acirc;&euro;&trade;s why I always tell women, &acirc;&euro;&oelig;If you&acirc;&euro;&trade;re dating a homophobe, you&acirc;&euro;&trade;re dating a guy who&acirc;&euro;&trade;s secretly a misogynist, who secretly hates you. And you shouldn&acirc;&euro;&trade;t.&acirc;&euro;</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: dancewosleeping</title>
		<link>http://www.lippsisters.com/2009/10/12/bryan-batt-good-old-sal-we-love-him/comment-page-2/#comment-34314</link>
		<dc:creator>dancewosleeping</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:30:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lippsisters.com/?p=7934#comment-34314</guid>
		<description>I am not getting in the middle of this except to pick up on Richard #67&#039;s comment &lt;i&gt;it&#226;&#8364;&#8482;s as much a sexist attitude as it is homophobic &lt;/i&gt;. 
 
SOOO much of the core of homophobia is rooted in mysogyny and sexism. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not getting in the middle of this except to pick up on Richard #67&#039;s comment <i>it&acirc;&euro;&trade;s as much a sexist attitude as it is homophobic </i>. </p>
<p>SOOO much of the core of homophobia is rooted in mysogyny and sexism.</p>
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