Bryan Batt: “Good old Sal, we love him”
After seeing Wee Small Hours, Roberta was the one who pointed out that now was the perfect time to follow-up with my earlier interview with Bryan Batt. This episode was so crucial for Salvatore Romano that we just had to talk. Fortunately, Bryan said yes right away.
Bryan is generous with his time. He was flying from New Orleans to New York on Saturday, October 10, and we spoke while he was in the car from the airport to his New York hotel. Then when he arrived at the hotel, he invited me to call back in a few minutes after he had time to check in. I felt kind of bad for him; flying can be so exhausting, and he’s been on a whirlwind, but despite that, he remained focused on our conversation and was so forthcoming, and of course great fun to talk with.
Following are some of my favorite highlights from the interview, and then the full (long!) transcript will be in a separate post.
About Don’s reaction in Wee Small Hours and some back story on Out of Town:
Bryan Batt: Originally, years ago, when Matt told me about [Out of Town]…he had told me at my makeup test for the pilot. He told me, “You know, what’s going to eventually happen is, you’re going to go on this trip with Don, and he’s going to have something with a stewardess, and you’re going to have something with either the pilot or somebody. Something’s going to happen. And it’s not going to matter to him.” And then I think what happened was, that was back in 2006. I think as the characters developed and as the situation developed…something had to happen because of what Don saw in that window. There had to be some repercussion from that down the line.
In regard to the scene with the bellhop in Out of Town:
Deborah Lipp: You were wonderful. I think that may be the most explicit scene of any kind that we’ve seen on the show. How do you prepare as an actor for that?
BB: Well you just do it. [Both laugh.] I try not to go on set with any preconceived notions of how it’s going to be staged. I have it in my mind how I think [it will be], but I’ve got to be as open as possible, because the other actors are going to have some ideas, and so is the director. So you have to be as amenable to taking direction and getting the shot as you can possibly be. If you’ve already locked yourself into something or put some barriers up, it’s just going to cause a problem. So I just try to be as open as possible.
…
BB: I think… a lot of us want Sal to get some action so bad, I mean he’s so repressed that way that nowadays we’re like, go ahead, come on, have fun. But he’s, I would like to say he’s so a virgin in that way.
About the themes of Wee Small Hours:
BB: I think it’s such an amazing episode. It speaks on so many levels, of prejudice, and sexual harassment, and homophobia, and you name it. Also, it’s really an episode about impulse, about “I want what I want when I want it, and if I can’t have it, screw everybody.” And that’s dangerous, to act so deeply on impulse.
But, but…does Salvatore come back?
DL: I can’t ask you about future episodes, but I can ask you one question, I don’t know if you can answer. Do we have Sal back for season four?
BB: All I can say is that, given that, Matt and the Sopranos and everything, I’ve been told that he’s not in the back of a trunk and he’s not dead. [both laugh]
…
DL: Well the fans are crazy about Salvatore—not just the character, but your performance, obviously—but he has such huge support.
BB: There’s millions of ways [for Sal] to be back in season 3 or season 4, 5, who knows? Who knows what Matt Weiner’s going to do?
DL: We just have to have Sal, we just have to.
BB: [Laughs] I’m sort of attached to him myself. I never realized how many people—how influential the character has become. People will stop me on the street all the time. And it’s the most wonderful thing; so many people, these ladies want hugs.
About acting out Bye Bye Birdie in The Arrangements:
BB: [I]nitially it was difficult for me to do that [scene]. Because first of all, if you look at the words of the script, or listen to the words, nothing repeats, except the action is repetitive. And what happens is “She goes forward and then pulls back, and then she walks forward and comes back,” it’s very [difficult to learn]. And then, I really wanted to do it like Ann-Margret and [mimic] that action, how it really happens in the beginning of Bye Bye Birdie. So I was a little less [dramatic] and then Matt came on set and was like, “Okay, you can go more. Go bigger. You can do bigger. You can throw your—” and I was like Oh, God, okay, now I have license to go all over.
Kitty needs “tending:”
DL: [W]hen she says in that scene, ‘It’s been months,’ do we think that the pivotal “months” started with the bellhop?
BB: It very well could have. It very well could have. I have a feeling that right after the bellhop thing, he ran home and, you know, proved his manhood as much as he could. And then, he’s like, okay, that’ll keep her for a little bit.
DL: ‘Okay, that proved it. Now I’m going to go back and, “You’re not wearing your little red suit!”’
BB: [Laughs.] Exactly, oh, we’ve had some fun off-camera with Sal and his bellhop.
About Basket of Kisses:
BB: Well there’s no fans like the fans from Basket of Kisses. I’d love to give everyone at Basket of Kisses a big kiss!
A final thought:
DL: I’ll keep my fingers crossed for Sal.
BB: Good old Sal, we love him.
DL: We do.
Tune in tomorrow for the full transcript!
October 12th, 2009 at 8:51 am
I love you Bryan Batt! The next time I’m in New Orleans, I’m headed to Hazelnut…forget Bourbon Street or Cafe Du Monde!
Seriously, you are one of the best actors I’ve had the pleasure to watch. I hope to see more of you, and not just on MM but selfishly, especially on MM. Thank you for making Sal such a satisfying character. I heart him like I heart Joan. My two favorite characters…and it’s all due to the people who play them.
October 12th, 2009 at 9:09 am
Sorry, off topic though I do love Bryan Batt. Christina Hendricks Marries in New York. Congratulations to the couple.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20311577,00.html
October 12th, 2009 at 9:32 am
I can’t believe how affected I am by both Sal and Joan being away from S-C. Bryan Batt is such an enormously affecting actor to make me feel so personally affronted and aggrieved. I’m on the edge of my seat, well, metaphorically I’m on the edge of my seat, IRL I’m flat on my back on the couch, watching every single ep 3-5 times to catch everything I missed. Dying to re-watch the commercial-filming scene again to see if I can pick up on Lucky Jr. eyeballing Sal.
Come back, Sal! Don’t lose yourself in the Rambles!
October 12th, 2009 at 9:56 am
Bryan Batt is such an intelligent actor, and credit to the directors, too. Remember that in S1, we initially thought Sal was a hunky, Italian man about town, whom women admired. There was even a hint of a spark with Joan. It is episodic acting at its best.
October 12th, 2009 at 10:01 am
Bryan if you’re reading this, kisses from another basketcase. You were wonderful. Hope Sal can make it back into the storyline somehow.
October 12th, 2009 at 11:09 am
brenda, really? I knew Sal was gay from episode 1.01.
October 12th, 2009 at 11:38 am
I agree completely! I miss Sal already, so I really hope they find a way on incorporating Sal into MM even if he’s not working at SC. Great work so far, Bryan!
October 12th, 2009 at 11:43 am
La, la, la, la … I’m going to have to pull a Season 1 Betty Draper here and refuse to acknowledge any unpleasant thought that runs contrary to my image of the perfect show. Because MM without Sal just wouldn’t be the same! And there’s so much more of Sal’s story to tell. Say it isn’t what it appears to be, and Sal will be helping out in his own version of the Republic of Dresses instead of off with Freddie Rumsen.
October 12th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Bryan, thanks for giving Sal so many layers. I refuse to believe he’s gone. I’m totally in denial.
October 12th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Deborah, nope, only picked up on it later.
October 12th, 2009 at 11:52 am
While I sympathize with Sal, he didn’t deserve what happened to him, I’m surprised that so few people have hit on what, or should I say *who* is the real problem here. It’s Harry. The guy is a complete incompetent. His story is flying under the radar. He is the perfect example of the Peter Principal. He is rising to his level of incompetence. Roger got close to the problem by chewing him out but instead of firing Harry, they fire Sal.
The Harry’s of the world just do well by being there. That’s it. He has no particular talent but he gets promoted. He fails to see talent when it’s staring him in the face. He is utterly lacking in imagination but not in the ability to rise in the company without any effort. I think he is a symbol of a lot of what is wrong with TV and advertising or just corporate culture in general. In 10 years, Harry will be the Pointy Haired Boss from Dilbert. Clueless and yet oddly blessed.
Disturbing.
October 12th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
We love you Bryan Batt!! I’m so upset that you won’t be at SC anymore… even if you were just sitting at the conference table with no lines – it was always good to have you in a scene! I’m crushed.
Sal and Joan need to go off and start a rival agency!
I hope we see you in season 4, 5 and on…
On another note – did Matt really know about a scene in season 3 while he was filming the pilot? Did I read that right? That is amazing.
October 12th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
#11 riverdaughter, I like your take on this.
As unwanted as this firing is, it is sure to have a radicalizing effect on Sal. Now cruising the piers, Sal seems to be saying “I might as well do what I’ve already been punished for.”
Perhaps coming out today is a rebranding exercise. But for most people of Sal’s era, it was involuntary and harsh. That makes it unfair, but not necessarily unfortunate. There’s an upside in the opportunity to live an authentic life.
I’m excited for Sal — and I praise Bryan Batt for making his character come alive.
October 12th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
riverdaughter, I could not disagree more. Harry was put in a horrible position; just as victimized as Salvatore. He was told to fire Sal, which he does not have the power to do, and not to tell anyone. As I listened to him changed the topic, I hoped, as he did, that maybe drunken Lee would forget the conversation took place (though I knew it was a longshot). Harry called it wrong, no doubt, but this wasn’t incompetence, it was simply that; a bad call. It was lose/lose all over–had he gone to someone, I doubt the outcome would have been different.
Harry is not an account guy–this ain’t his domain.
And let’s not forget that Lee has a lot to cover up for in this story, and that he is a bully. He knows that if he wants someone fired he should call Pete or Roger, who might actually ask questions (they still would have fired Salvatore, but Lee had to make sure) and so instead he goes and picks on a weakling.
October 12th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
But why couldn’t Harry go to Sal and ask “what happened?”
Even without knowing anything, giving Sal a heads up would have been the right thing to do and could have helped everyone involved. All it required was the willingness to talk to Sal, but Harry didn’t do it. So I don’t buy that this was just a bad call. It was incompetence.
October 12th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Actually, I agree with both Roberta and riverdaughter. Harry was put in an untenable situation here. But even Harry realizes that going with his first reaction is usually a disaster. The black humor here is that Harry thinks about it and it’s still a disaster. Had Harry gone to Pete, or even Roger, the outcome likely would still have been Sal getting fired. Here, by trying to do the decent thing, Harry also endangered himself. (Harry probably acts as commendably as can be expected, just saying that the net is a negative for both Sal and Harry). Any chance of managing the situation is likely doomed from the start precisely because Harry is so inept at this sort of thing (which — as Roberta notes — is likely why Lee picks Harry).
October 12th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Harry should have gone straight to Roger or Don, or at least told Sal to lay low and not come to that meeting. He was put in a really awkward position, but he’s still incompetent. He should have gone to someone else to solve the problem rather than do nothing.
Bryan’s performance was so great this episode. His line about Lee being a bully just broke my heart. Don is so callous and it’s really starting to make me hate him. This episode was hard to sit through.
October 12th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
I’ve only seen the episode once, but I got the feeling that Lucky Jr just wanted Sal off the account, not fired altogether, but I will bow to yall’s perceptions until I see it again. As an aside, Lucky Jr. just replaced Duck as the person I despise most on Mad Man. Duck put Chauncy out on the streets, but in my mind, Chauncy was taken in that same night by a loving family and never looked back.
I don’t know what’s going to happen to poor Sal. How is he going to tell his wife he got fired? And crusing for pick-ups can be dangerous, although Sal is a big guy, but what if he gets arrested? I’m sick about this! I hope he’s able to come back, because I agree with the others that as wonderfully as the character is written, he’s brought to life by Bryan Batt, and it’s Bryan’s performance that makes all of us love Sal so much.
Harry was put in a terrible position, but he should have used some common sense and gone to Roger or Don or someone and told them what happened. If he had, Sal might have simply been removed from Lucky Strike and advised to keep his head low whenever they were in the office.
October 12th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
My gut tells me we are far from done with Sal, just as we are far from done with Joan. They are not only beloved characters, but also vehicles for Matt to tell certain stories. It’s much easier for him to bring them back in some way than to contrive new characters and plots to explore the themes Joan and Sal bring to the table.
October 12th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Jules: I got the impression that Lucky Jr. wanted Sal fired. Like, that moment. It’s because he knew how valuable Lucky was to SC and he could push his weight around, arbitrarily and capriciously if need be just to show who had the bigger dick.
And I am not going to confuse my admiration for the actor who plays Harry with the character. The character Harry is symbolic for a lot of what is wrong with corporate life. Sometimes, we wonder how people get to the position they’re in without any obvious effort or competence. Harry is all about that phenomenon. HE’S the one who nearly costs SC their livelihood but he gets off with a hand slap.
Harry was not put in an impossible position. Several people have suggested what he ought to have done. Instead, he did nothing. Of all of the people who were powerless in last night’s show and delayed the inevitable, Harry actually was the one character capable of changing the outcome.
And he’s still there at SC, while the talented gay art department director is gone. SC has a talent balance of -1 after last night. Not a good thing. They can’t afford to lose people like that.
October 12th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
I can’t believe this argument about whose fault it is, Don’s or Harry’s.
It’s Lee Garner, Jr.’s fault.
Lee Garner is an abusive mofo and everyone else is reacting. Don reacts with homophobia. Harry reacts with incompetence and fear. We could as easily fault Sal for not proactively taking action; asking off the account, for example, because he senses Garner dislikes him, or warning Don there might be a problem.
But no one is to blame but Garner.
October 12th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Ranking him above Duck as most despised is most certainly blaming him, so there!
October 12th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
It speaks on so many levels, of prejudice, and sexual harassment, and homophobia, and you name it. Also, it’s really an episode about impulse, about “I want what I want when I want it, and if I can’t have it, screw everybody.” And that’s dangerous, to act so deeply on impulse.
I feel so garteful to Bryan Batt for saying this. It is all true, and so generous. Particularly the fact of what Sal suffered being sexual harassment — and his harasser got away with it because he had power, and knew how to play absolutely everyone involved.
No one wants to admit this, but in the end people in business side with the bullies. They do. Every time.
October 12th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
*Grateful.* Sorry.
October 12th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Deborah, I almost always end up agreeing with you, but not this time. Harry knew that LuckyBully was placing him in a no-win situation. Harry is management for crap’s sake. While the client is always right, a “good” executive ALWAYS protects the company. It was unclear to me if LuckyBully just wanted Sal off the project…but Harry HOPED that he wouldn’t sober up and remember. I find it hard to believe that there have not been other creative differences that neccessitated changing personnal on accounts. It could have been handled. As a competent employee he should have gone to Pete/Roger and protected his company’s standing with the account.
October 12th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
I’m so happy to read this interview, as Sal has been on my mind since the episode aired. Am I the only one who’s relieved to hear that Sal doesn’t die. The thought DID more than cross my mind. It seemed way out there, but MM has been shocking lately, so I wondered if the writers would go that far. Sal needs to come back soon.
October 12th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
At the very very least, Harry should have figured out how NOT to have Sal in the meeting, if he was going to do nothing else. He’s an imbecile for thinking this was going to turn out OK for any of them.
October 12th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Poor Sal. I’m so upset and Don was such a prick to him. He looked so betrayed when Don all but said it was his fault and fired him. I just wanted to give poor Sal a big old hug. He is such a good sweet man and it is so hard for him being so repressed and then having that bully use it against him.
October 12th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
I LOVE Bryan Batt and his Sal character! The Weiner better keep him! I cry every single time Sal has a poignant scene. Bryan captures his character’s frustration, conflict and inner sadness so perfectly.
I love you, Bryan!
October 12th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
dancewos, I agree that Harry is incompetent. But really, blaming secondary parties in this is not far from blaming the actual victim.
It’s so important that abusers take the blame for abuse. Why should Harry take the blame for not being able to adequately respond to abuse? That doesn’t make him the abuser.
October 12th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
As I watched the scene of harassment, I kept thinking that, if this scene is any indication, sexual harassment plays out pretty much the same way no matter the gender/sexual orientation of the harassed.
I was so struck by the fact that because it was between men, all the aspects were so much more clear. From Sal’s increasing politeness and distancing to Don Draper’s assumption that Sal had somehow “asked for it” and since he had, he should have succumbed and saved the account. Well, and being fired (I remember clearly that it was ALWAYS the secretary and never the boss who got fired in similar situations.)
October 12th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
I don’t think anyone is giving the Lucky guy a pass on this. We’re all pretty much in agreement that he’s the scum of the earth. But there was one person who had asymmetric information that could have severe repercussions for the company and he chose to keep this information to himself because he did not understand how important it was. As a result, SC has lost some of its talent while retaining the clueless idiot that put them in jeopardy.
In this instance, there are several guilty parties, Sal not being among them. But just because Lucky Jr. is a creepy bully doesn’t mean that Harry wasn’t just as responsible for not seeing the big picture. It is possible to hold both thoughts in the head at one time.
October 12th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
No absolutely Harry is not the cause of what happened. But Harry, not knowing the real reason for LuckyBully’s demands, still should have known how to handle a personality conflict between client and agency. If LuckyBully was pointing a rifle at Sal, would Harry hope that the bullet would fizzle out before it got to him or would he push Sal out of the way? No, he’s not the one pulling the trigger and he’s not to blame. But there is SOME measure of responsibility in the situation.
October 12th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
As far as I can see, here’s what LuckyBully (thanks dance!) wanted:
1) to avoid exposing himself;
2) to never have to see Sal — or face the reminder of his own rejection, and the resulting shove back into the closet — again;
3) to get what he wanted without facing any questions.
He must have known that Harry isn’t the kind of guy who would ask questions about the reason for Sal’s removal. This says something less than positive about Harry to begin with.
But Roger sealed Sal’s fate by agreeing to the client’s demands. This left Don somewhat “cornered”, as well — although I think he still could have gone back to Roger and Burt and fought for Sal, contending that LuckyBully was tanked, he didn’t know what he was saying, we’ll just keep Sal and this lush/loose cannon apart in future meetings. As he has done for Paul with past clients.
But Don did not do that. Because Sal is gay.
It really hurt to write that, but it’s what I believe.
October 12th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Watching Don is like watching someone with a split personality. On one hand, he’s very forward thinking and liberal. Then, we see him react to Sal’s situation with puritanical judgment. It’s maddening.
October 12th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Love Sal, and love Bryan’s portrayal! I will miss him and eagerly await his return to MM!
October 12th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
All Harry, Roger and Don did was reward Lucky, Jr. for being a bully. There’s an old saying, “silence equals consent”.
October 12th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
in the comments for the episode in Italy, I noted that sexual harassment of females on the job almost always results in a boss trying to get rid of the female who rejected him.
obviously this is not just a problem for females and Sal’s situation, because his sexuality is not acknowledged, makes the problem especially clear.
Sal’s story broke my heart last night. great acting.
October 12th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Bryan Batt, I don’t know if you’re reading this, but you’re one of my absolute favorite characters on the show. I’m really glad the character didn’t end up in a trunk. Maybe now Sal will get to start his own agency, the way he wanted to.
October 12th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Yes, esme.
The modern pattern goes like this:
As a company we don’t tolerate sexual harassment at all. You must report it if it happens to you, if you witness it happening to someone else, yadda yadda employee handbook corporate code of conduct.
So let’s say you do that.
Bully (harasser) says: oh my God. I had no idea my actions might have been interpreted in that way. I never intended that at all. Or: let’s just keep this between us. I always cared about you as a person and I don’t want this to impede our working relationship.
Says the person to whom the target of the harassment takes the complaint (if she/he does so, in keeping with company rules): You did the right thing, bringing this up. I will look into the situation further.
Target of the harassment later learns that harasser is willing to “apologize” (meaning, he wants to see her or him again, in private). In the meantime, the target is investigated, for any touch of wrongdoing the company might find. Typically, none exists — but the process remains humiliating.
Results for the harasser: usually none. Business as usual.
Results for the target of the harassment: discomfort, exposure, isolation, fear, and eventual decision to quit.
If anyone here has had a different experience, I’d be delighted to hear it.
October 12th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Where was YodaBert to save Sal? Bert managed to save Pete (who possibly deserved it) and Don/Dick. What about innocent Sal???
October 12th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
I believe Alan Sepinwall asked in his always wonderful column the female version of this question.
http://sepinwall.blogspot.com/2009/10/mad-men-wee-small-hours-his-masters.html
What would Don have done if Peggy were the one to decline Lee Jr’s sexual advances? What would Don do if Connie proposed an Indecent Proposal with Betty?
October 12th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Sepinwall also notes that Paul Kinsey heard Harry’s plan and said nothing.
And Deborah is right that Lee is to blame, but (as noted above) I think Lee picks and isolates Harry to make the bullying fully effective.
October 12th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Don said what he would do, Aran: “It depends on what I knew about the girl” (I think I have that right). Did Don know about Peggy’s pregnancy? I think if he did, he would discard her in this situation, because, as Matt says on the “Inside” video, that skirt was just too short. Or maybe he’d protect Peggy because she behaves conservatively, but would have thrown Joan under the bus.
Ugh.
October 12th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
I need to watch the episode again (as always) before I’ll accuse Don of being homophobic. I believe that his “you people” comment was directed at all of his staff for not being able to handle the problem…letting it get out of hand, just as he does later when he demands better ideas for the Hilton campaign.
If Don were a true homophobe he would have fired Sal as soon as he knew for sure about Sal’s orientation. A true homophobe would not have wanted to work with or associate with a gay man at all.
October 12th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
I had such a difficult time with last night’s episode. I ended up watching the 11 PM repeat, because I was out celebrating the end of the National Equality March in DC, and I couldn’t bear to watch anything after that son-of-a-bitch Draper fired Sal. Sorry, lawnmowerman, but Don is a total and complete homophobe. He “tolerated” Sal when his perversion was hidden, but never even contemplated that Sal might be telling the truth about Lucky Jr.
I don’t know if MW is a genius or what, but having that episode the same day of the march was a real slap in the face. The truth is what happened to Sal happens all the time in this country – after all, more than half the states still do not protect LGBT people from such discrimination – in employment, housing or public accommodations. I travel for work and am always careful when checking into hotels in anti-gay states (like SC, where I am now). The last thing I need is some homophobic desk clerk refuse me a room just because I am gay.
I understand that shows have to follow a creative energy, but the disappointment of losing Sal is really deep. There are so few LGBT characters of any kind on scripted TV (we’re all over reality programming, particularly HGTV) that to lose one as nuanced and human as Sal is just so sad. I will have a really hard time watching MM next week (and now I have to see the end of the episode, ’cause it appears Sal gets a little moxie at least) because of the gap Sal’s absence will create.
October 12th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Oh, and Harry was and is a total screw up.
October 12th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
I agree with so many of you. Lee Brat Jr was the real bad guy but Harry and Roger and Don especially could have handled this so differently. Sal is 100% the victim, Harry is partially a victim, Roger is a tool, and Don is an enabler of sorts. That “you people” comment, whatever it meant, said a lot. Poor Sal!
October 12th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
I think Don’s remarks toward Sal assumed that Sal was not a “virgin.” What Don saw from the fire escape was a guy grabbing his clothes. So Don’s remark to Sal didn’t seem to have anything to do with knowledge that Peggy had been preggers, it seems to me.
Instead, Don was saying that if a girl was a virgin, he wouldn’t expect her to sleep with a client. If the girl was like Peggy’s Swedish roomie, he wouldn’t think it’s such a big deal.
Don assumed Sal was like the Swedish roomie when, in truth, or at least based upon what we know, Sal is a virgin, in terms of his homosexual experience.
Don’s relationship with Bobby was very cynical – like his remarks to Sal – Bobbie got her husband to apologize while she used Don to get things for her hub, too.
He went after Rachel after he almost lost the account. He sees no problem with mixing biz and pleasure, however you might take that pleasure.
October 12th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Empress, YodaBert is too high up in the company to deal with matters concerning Sal. That’s what Roger and Don are for.
I thought Alan Sepinwall’s question was intriguing. Suppose Lee Jr. got drunk and propositioned Peggy and scared the living daylights out of her, but she refused and he ordered her fired.
If she went to Don, he might well say, “Did you come on to him?” and then something like, “Peggy, you know things like this are going to happen. If you want to play at this level, you know there are things you might not want to do. Don’t put yourself in that position because I can’t help you.” And fired her, too.
October 12th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
I’m still so shocked about the way Sal was fired. I’m not fearing that this is the last we’ll see of Sal, just as I don’t think Joan leaving SC means the end of Joan. I still think Pete and Peggy might leave SC this season too. I’m sure Weiner has a plan for how the story will continue to follow these characters. If he doesn’t…he knows we’ll be very disappointed.
Still, it is hard to take. In ep9 of S2 we saw Freddie Rumsen lose his job, but at least Roger and Don gave Freddie a warm and compassionate send off. The coldness of Sal’s dismissal was shocking. I know tensions were running high but Sal has been at the firm a long time – longer than the chipmunk gang. I can’t believe nobody thought Sal deserved better than that. Roger didn’t even care to inquire what Lee’s problem was.
But then I thought of Bert Peterson and “the firings” that were referred to in ‘Out of Time’. I guess Roger and Don really have got used to firing their co-workers this year. By the time it came to Sal they were hardened to it. Harry and Pete looked horrified, but I’m not sure if it was sympathy for Sal or fear of how easily they might also be shown the door.
Again, this makes me wonder how the hell Ken Cosgrove got away with bringing that damn lawnmower into the office.
October 12th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
I was angry with Don over this business with Sal. Would he have told Peggy that she should have done the same. I can foresee Sal having been arrested or beaten and having only Don that he can call on for help.
October 12th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
I’m not surprised Sal was fired. I’m amazed he lasted in the job this long (how long has he been there, 10 years or something?) without his sexual orientation ever becoming an issue.
What I would have loved is for Sal to ask Don, “Would YOU have slept with him?” After all, if the gist is, “We can’t piss off Lucky Strike,” that means the most powerful clients ALWAYS get what they want, period, end of sentence. So if Lucky Jr. wanted Don’s bod, Don should have been willing to give it, right? If he wanted to whisk Betty away for a week in the Bahamas and bang her silly, Don would acquiesce to that too? Or maybe a three-way with the two of them, at Don’s house, with the kids in the next room? I don’t think Don has any idea in the world what’s coming, what people (even in the world of business) are going to be bold enough to demand from other people in the years to come.
And no, Don doesn’t even have a foot to stand on trying to hold morality over Sal regarding his sex life. “You people,” indeed.
I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Sal, though. It would be fun to see him join up with Duck.
October 12th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
He definitely would have told Peggy to do the same. “It’s business.” What is intriguing is that these situations were fairly novel at the time. Most of the professional workforce consisted of straight men. Few professional women and few out men (or women).
October 13th, 2009 at 2:59 am
It makes me think of Roger’s line: “Let me put it in account terms…do you know how many handjobs I’m going to have to give?” Like Roger says, to an extent they are all account men and the account guys understand they have to act as pimps/whores to keep their clients happy.
October 13th, 2009 at 10:18 am
aside: Joy Behar had Dan Savage and Sal himself, Bryan Batt on her show last night, and she began her show with the firing scene between Sal and Don:
http://gay.americablog.com/2009/10/dan-savage-on-joy-behar-show.html
October 13th, 2009 at 10:43 am
The points being made using Betty as an object of the client’s desire are straw men arguments at best. Betty is NOT an employee of S-C. To insinuate that a client could go after Betty with impunity is silly. If they did and Betty refused, then what? They want S-C to fire Betty? Silly…
Don’s words, “you people” clearly meant the people at the agency who Don deems to be incompetent at handling the clients. He has heard this same story over and over – not just for sexual favors. Last year when Jimmy Barrett insulted the client the guys who took the heat for the mess were the S-C guys who were there at the time. Although Don saved Jimmy from being fired from the promos, that was because Jimmy had other things tied to the ad that were still important to S-C. And Don had to clean up the mess. When Paul insults the powers that be who were re-deisgning Penn Station, Don had to clean up the mess. Don felt doubly let down by Sal because he had already told him to minimize his exposure on the flight home. As common practice at the time held that men only responded sexually to those who “asked for it” it isn’t surprising that Don assumes that Sal did something to lead the client on. And Lucky Strike IS their biggest client. You can shuffle around the little files but the big guys, who “keep the lights on” MUST be appeased.
October 13th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
#57 Moneypenney: Well said. I did not at all get the sense that Don referred to homosexuals with his exasperated “You people,” epithet, but to his bumbling staff in general. And whether or not he expected Sal to accommodate the client, it’s clear that he expected Sal to have handled/finessed the situation in a manner that would allow the client to save face.
(Not defending Lee Jr. here, just imaging Don’s thought process….I really don’t believe he’s homophobic because I don’t think Don cares that deeply one way or the other about matters that don’t directly concern him. Just as he OK-d the fundraiser “As long as I don’t have to be there.” And was ready to snap off the radio when the MLK Jr. speech was being rebroadcast. Even his response to Connie’s Communist diatribe was “I’m not an expert.” Don doesn’t care about politics, religion, social issues — perhaps he educates himself on such matters as they pertain to his job but really has no strongly held beliefs.)
October 13th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
I agree that Don is pretty ambivilant about politics, religion or social issues, but I couldn’t disagree more that the “you people” comment was somehow a general comment about the staff. It mimicked a similar comment Betty made in a previous episode to Jimmy Barrett, and that was obviously an anti-semetic remark (Jimmy even chides her, “You people, you mean comedians?”) It was subtle, but neither Don or Betty are exactly crackers from the South who are going to be crude about it either. In a very strange way, though, it might have been a slightly backhanded complement, because Don, in sizing up the situation, couldn’t believe that Sal didn’t just sleep with the guy and get it over with. It was a sort of, “Oh brother, you people with your standards and moral judgement, why couldn’t you have just handled it my way?”.
October 13th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
“This never happened.” Didn’t work for Harry/Sal.
October 13th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
“Oh brother, you people with your standards and moral judgement, why couldn’t you have just handled it my way?”.
Really. You can imagine Don saying to himself “Jeezus Sal. It’s just SEX fergodsakes. I sleep around ALL THE TIME for free. And this is a $25mm account!”
October 13th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Sal was the only person I felt a shred of sympathy for in this episode.
@#59 Richard: You wrote, “It was subtle, but neither Don or Betty are exactly crackers from the South who are going to be crude about it either.”
Richard, I don’t offend easily, but I do take exception to this comment. Crude and offensive behavior can be found in every community. Born in Atlanta, living now in Florida, I lived in the Northeast for a time. My introduction to Massachussetts hospitality was a public employee at the DMV making fun of an old man who had turned off his hearing aid because it was squealing. Of course, the old man couldn’t hear at that point, and had to have everything repeated. The DMV employee made fun of him, people standing around in line were laughing, and the old guy could tell they were laughing at him…made me sick. Thank goodness our neighbors weren’t built the same way.
October 13th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Mama Louise, you took my comment out of context and I totally apologize if you were offended – I was saying “crackers from the South” in jest, because I may be on your side on this one – I am offended by the presumption that ALL white people are “crackers from the South” in one way or another. And I don’t always like some of the comments on here either, like how the Dems single handedly got through Civil Rights (read that one up above, had to laugh), and I HATED the scene where Connie tells Don, “I’m a Republican, just like those people out there” (at the wedding scene), and they immediately go to Roger in black face – almost stopped watching the show over that one, so don’t think I give this show a pass on every issue either. But Don’s comment is definitely homophobic in one way or another, and the Drapers do have issues on race that I’m sure will be explored on future episodes – we’ll see how fairly they are handled. You got to love this show, though, can’t believe I’m even on a blog about it, but I definitely don’t want to offend anyone with my comments!
October 14th, 2009 at 5:40 am
Excellent points. However, was one not that for the 1st time in our lives, men got to see how it felt to be treated as women have been treated at the work place for decades?
When Lee Jr came onto to Sal, my wife said there was an expression of horror on my face and that I said, “OMG” out loud. I am not gay, but that did happen to a man and allowed me to see how it felt to deal with an unwelcome come on, do nothing wrong, and pay for it. Shear genius from the writers that it was not a female character in this role like Peggy, which would have left us fellows out of what was a horrific day for Sal.
October 14th, 2009 at 9:52 am
I found Don’s reaction to Sal’s story about Lee Garner, Jr. both disturbing and interesting. Right after the Out of Town Episode, so many bloggers thought that Don was still the good, progressively minded guy who didn’t judge Sal for his homosexuality despite being a conservative man in 1963 because Don himself has secrets. I didn’t see that at all. I saw Don’s look of shock & disgust in the hotel window, and although he was much more civilized to Sal on the plane ride home, I do not think he was being civilized because he was progressive for his time & refused to be a homophobic. I think he recognized Sal for his artistic talent and told him to “keep a low profile” in order that Sal could remain at SC. His commentary and general look of disgust during their final meeting demonstrates what I always thought from that Out of Town Episode: Don did judge Sal. (Don judges people after all, just like Roger pointed out to him.) He asked Sal “Do you really want to do that?” in response to Sal “swearing on his mother’s life” that nothing happened. Don didn’t believe Sal. However, more telling was Don’s response to Sal’s question of whether it was it really expected that Sal should whore himself out to the client. Sal asked would you have expected that if I was a girl? Don’s response demonstrates his disdain: “It depends on the girl, and what I knew about her” suggesting Don would expect a certain kind of girl to sleep with a client who requests it, and he thinks of Sal as that “kind of girl.” He sees Sal in that same light. According to Don, Sal is that “certain kind” of man. Poor Sal. Disappointing Don.
October 14th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
In Baltimore, Don got a glimpse through the hotel window of a man in Sal’s room, so considering what Don had just been doing with the stew in a room upstairs, he must have assumed something similar had been happening in Sal’s room, either before or perhaps even after the fire alarm interruption. This is logical, based on what he’s seen.
Don doesn’t know what the audience knows about Sal’s deeply closeted self — he just goes with what he thinks he’s seen and what he personally knows about the male sex drive. If he assumed that Sal was already sleeping around on Kitty …
Don’s also rather distracted by everything that’s going on in his life, so he was not his best and kindest self at the time he was confronted with Sal’s firing. Perhaps when Peggy’s problem arose in 1960, Don was feeling more in control of his life and therefore more generous and accommodating.
Neither Harry nor Roger have any idea why Lee Jr. wanted Sal fired — because Lee Jr. didn’t want them to know. If Harry had any organizational savvy, he would have gone immediately to Don about Lee Jr’s phone call because (a) Don was Sal’s boss and (b) Don’s the best strategic thinker at SC, but would still need a heads up to react more coolly.
October 14th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
I thought the comments above about viewing Sal in the light of being “that kind of girl” go perfectly with how Don shakes Sal’s hand in the final moments of the scene – did anyone notice how lamely Don sticks out his hand to Sal, certainly not the kind of respectful, “gentleman’s handshake” he should have given him – I think Don pretty much writes Sal off as just another “woman” of the office (that may been the source of his “you people” comment as well) – it’s as much a sexist attitude as it is homophobic (okay, please don’t get offended and think I think this way – I’m just trying to wrap by brain around Don’s 1963 “gentleman’s code, OKAY?;))
October 14th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
@Richard 59and 63, what exactly was it that Mama Louise took out of context about your comments? I did not see ANYTHING to take out of the context, you used the phrase “they aren’t crackers from the south,” and I, and obviously Mama Louise, did not see anything in that statement that seemed to be ironic, or satirical, or to indicate that you were making a joke. First you go to using what is something of a racialized term that is bound to offend some and then you go on to say that you were offended by Connie saying he was Republican like everyone else (note the folks he was explicitly referring to were NOT people who were attending Roger’s party) and then showing Roger in blackface, even though that happened before the scene. I suppose perhaps you were inferring that since Roger is Republican, as he mentione before, and people at other events at his club are Republican the fact that he would do blackface demonstrates racism on his part and by extension to the rest of the people at his club. A spurious leap of logic at best, particularly because at that time although Barry Goldwater was pusing the party in a different direction, not too many of the old time virulently racist Southern Democrats, or Dixiecrats as they briefly called themselves, had moved over to the Republican party and although John Kennedy and later Lyndon Johnson changed the nature of democratic party by favoring civil rights and as Johnson himself said “losing the south for a generation” or something to that effect, it hasn’t happened yet. At that time there were still many people in the Republican party who could by today’s standards be considered liberal and the realignment of the Republicans had not yet occured and in the south many whites, especially those who were from old Southern families, who held virulently racists views were Democrats or becoming independent of a sort before being Republican. So the logic tying those incidents together seems to be pretty weak. If anything there were more Southern Democrats opposed to civil rights and more Northern Republicans in favor of them.
Also, even though I am not white, I was taken aback by seeing the term “cracker” on this site and thought it seemed a bit inflamotory. I’m pretty liberal and have some very strong views on what constitutes racism and what does not and some issues I have with the modern day Republican party (which are totally irrelevant here) and the use of that term sort of bugged me too. I try to be very careful in what I say in discussions about race with most white people b/c I find it to be a very difficult discussion and, particularly if they are friends or are just nice people who I don’t want to get into an argument with, I avoid using inflamatory words and try to get across my point without hitting them over the head and because some people cannot handle my version of what the truth is. Whereas you felt free to jump in with inflammatory language when it seemingly was at best tangentially related to the topic at hand. I say all that to say, that you are the one who went there with using that term and then you defend yourself using an example that has absolutely nothing to do with what you are saying initally and are trying somehow to show how something that the show did offended you thus deflecting from what you said, and brought up. I don’t care what race you are, using terms like cracker casually especially in a forum like this is uncalled for and trying to paint the show as somehow being offensive to Republicans when from a historical perspective it doesn’t even make sense to the time, seems somewhat unthinking or naive at best and disingenous at worst. I say all that to say, I found the cracker comment offensive and I found your follow up comments to be an annoying attempt to bring modern day partisanship into it in an instance where it is not accurate and to somehow make yourself or Repbulicans a martyr or derided group when that is not the case to be offensive. I don’t know if I’m making sense b/c I’m peeved right now but in essense, I found your apology offensive.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
I’ve re-read my intial comments, which were clearly a bit of irony and made, I thought, a relavent point. I also re-read my subsequent responses, and again, I apologized if I was offensive and even made some good points to the other side of the coin as it were. It’s a slippery slope being on blogs, and I’ve read far more biased, and yes, even offensive, comments, including profane language, on this site, and yet I’ve never seen a more incensed response to a post. I won’t assume it’s because I showed some slightly politically right leanings (libertarian, actually)……..just as I imagined, all viewpoints welcomed, all long as they conform. Rest assured I won’t be back to this site.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Oh c’mon, let’s stick to talking about Mad Men, and not get all thin-skinned with each other about comments we make here, especially regarding tangential issues or inflammatorily-phrased comments which were subsequently walked back.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
I think there is a big difference btwn casual cursing and using racially charged language, no matter who it is targeted to or if it is in “jest” or not. I still also don’t see the “clear” irony of your comment after several readings of it, perhaps you have a very, very subtle sense of humor that I just don’t get.
Also, I didn’t notice this the first two times I read your posts but and I’ve never seen anyone on this site say or even hint at “…the presumption that ALL white people are ‘crackers from the South…’ ” as you said.
This is the Lipp sisters site not mine and my taking issue with what you said has absolutely nothng to do with the viewpoints welcomed on this site so it is unfortunate that you feel you need to leave this site just based on one person disagreeing with you, however “incensed” that response may be.
.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
I am not getting in the middle of this except to pick up on Richard #67’s comment it’s as much a sexist attitude as it is homophobic .
SOOO much of the core of homophobia is rooted in mysogyny and sexism.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
dance, you are absolutely right. Three years ago, on my personal blog, I quoted Dan Savage from an interview. You inspired me to look up the quote:
October 14th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
“If you’re dating a homophobe, you’re dating a guy who’s secretly a misogynist, who secretly hates you. And you shouldn’t.”
or you’re dating a self-loathing closeted gay man. Look at all of our extremely homophobic televangelists and senators who — gosh, huuuge surprise! — get caught in gay affairs.
October 14th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Ahhh Deberoh,
I love me that Dan! I would’ve rambled and tangented all over the place to say what he said.
October 14th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Sorry about the name-mangling…typing and working don’t mix!
October 14th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Gypsy,
Like LuckyBully?
October 14th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Not the getting caught part, but the self-loathing. It’s a pretty well-established fact that those who protest and loathe the most are those with the most to hide. So much misery, so many lives ruined, because people have been taught that what they feel is wrong.