Sep 132009
Here it is, folks, the oft-pivotal fifth episode of the season.
For those who are new to the Basket, we open the doors at 8pm eastern, and Basketcases just start adding thoughts as they come; while they are watching, and then long through the week. Sometimes Deborah and/or I are here, sometimes not. Doesn’t matter. This is your time.
Have a look around. Old posts a’plenty, exclusive interviews, and a newly revamped (thank you Deb) About section, which serves as a little bit of a BoK tour, and includes our terribly important comment and spoiler policies.
So grab a gimlet and enjoy!
433 Responses to “Open Thread: The Fog”
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OK My daughter and I just finished this MM and the first 4. My 17 year old is giving me observations and insights that I would expect from her many years from now. I am very proud of her!
She told me to tell you guys that this season is s "bridge season" and is setting up for NEXT season…….. Well thats what she said!
Back to the idea that Don's interaction with the prison guard was a dream. This reviewer also thought that: http://www.tvfodder.com/madmen/archives/2009/09/m…
Late again, because I could only watch on DVR last night…
– Cannot, cannot, CANNOT say enough about how much I loved this episode.
– More and more, for me Campbell has become a far more interesting character than Draper. Pete's impetuousness, his conflicted loyalties, his relationship with Peggy, his progressive thinking in a clumsy and at times offensive package — the guy is so layered. Don, unfortunately, has been a bit of a one-note guy this season — bored at work, navel-gazing at home. I understand the reasons for this, but it's made him less compelling to follow.
– The Ruth/Medgar Evers sequence was fabulous.
– Really nice to see Betty smiling again. We'll see how long it lasts.
– Don't think Dennis lost his son. He clearly has issues (would not be surprised if he was a philanderer and/or spousal abuser) and was high on scotch, emotion and adrenaline when he bared his soul to Don. I think his prison guard "walls" were back up when he saw Don later.
– "Not all surprises are bad." What a wonderful line. Kiernan and Jon are great in their scenes together.
– Bert has these quirks that speak to his open-mindedness, but at the end of the day, he is as hardcore about the bottom line as anyone in that building. His part in the dressing down of Pete rang totally true.
– I have absolutely no idea what Peggy will do next, and I can't wait to find out.
After watching again last night, I have to add that the funniest line of the ep came from Duck: "Have a nosh." LOL
Duck is like Pete: You may not like him, but he seems to have a better fix on where things are going than any of the braintrust at Sterling Cooper. He knows that Pete and Peggy are the talent and the future and wants them on his team. But at SC, they are being refused raises and flogged. I can't see either of them leaving (how could the show work if they did?), but it's yet another sign of how SC is doing the long slow gurgle if they can't change.
What was interesting about the Duck scene is that Pete mentioned he'd been at Grey for two months, which indicates that there were a few months of unemployment.
@ TR #404
That review is starting to sway me. If the prison guard was really there, but his conversation with Don was Don's hallucination, that would explain the curt glance afterwards. Every word they exchanged addressed Don's fears and self-doubts a little too perfectly. Will the big reveal of the season be that Don has been having a breakdown without us (or him) knowing it? Interesting, except, as has been noted, this has already been done on House and Rescue Me.
#376 Elle: thank you!
what a brilliant episode! although, i was curious to hear what people thought when it came to the racial elements of the show. this is my first time commenting on this site, so go easy on me. i have a few points of observation.
the discussion between hollis and pete (mr. campbell) where hollis was noticeably fearful for his job while trying to hold back his commentary on pete's perspectives of "negroes" is linked with sally talking to her teacher about medgar evars (assasinated for his civil rights work…"speaking up") and how it surprised don that sally even raised the issue which is also linked with betty's dream when her mother said (standing above what folks here have decided is a mortally wounded medgar evars) "this is what happens when you speak out" and of course she has started to speak out to don (in earlier episodes) and the nurses (while in the delivery room) about don's absence and her not wanting to have a child and then finally linked with peggy asking for a raise in don's office.
i think it's amazing that this show sometimes dances around the issue of race and then sometimes dives right into it. it can be difficult, because the main characters do live in a segregated world despite living and/or working in new york city. the fact that hollis was the only black character with a speaking role in this episode and was subject to pete's "research methods" about what why he bought a tv and what he watches on it- the only reason pete would ever talk to hollis about what he would watch on tv is so that he can make some money from it. pete feels that his comfortability of talking with him makes him progressive (and he is, in a way, compared to his contemporaries) but at the same time this is not enough for hollis- he is not satisfied with pete's level of progressivism because pete doesn't understand that the american dream pete talks about is locked away from hollis- the very dynamic of the conversation forced hollis to smile when he really is insulted by pete's question.
moreover, speaking out about not wanting to have a child, about wanting to be treated as an equal in the workplace, or wanting to be treated as an equal period is the foundation to the burgeoning political movements of the 60s. they were each hallmarked by both foundational characters (betty and peggy) and peripheral characters (hollis) and hint at a point of convergence to the 2nd wave feminist movement and the black civil rights movement that (unfortunately…at least from my perspective) never actually met.
as a black male watching the show, i couldn't help but notice this intertwining of fates between these characters and i couldn't help but feel estranged from a show (given the lack of black characters) but at the same time feel drawn to it (as a quick conversation between pete and hollis really inserted a lot of racial commentary into the plot). brilliant episode.
#408 Melville
It is an interesting idea. Might explain why Dennis had the same last name as a character from an earlier season (Hobart).
According to that reviewer it was evident that Don was hallucinating/dreaming. It didn't strike me that way though. Although I suppose I did find their conversation a little deep and introspective. Especially for two strangers, who are men.
I haven't watched House since the first season and I've never seen Rescue Me, so I can't really speak as to how this device was used on those shows.
It would be a little disappointing to find out that MM is using a similar idea that is being used currently (or has been used recently) on another show.
Loved the episode though. That's one of the things I love about MM…keeps you thinking!
General comment: Those comments earlier about the idea of baby switching that is floating around other boards made me laugh. They reminded me of some things I had read on other boards. I did a lot of reading about MM before watching the show. (I came late to the series, and just recently got caught up). On one board there was the idea that Anna is really in a mental institution and that Don visits her there. When I finally saw the Mountain King episode I thought to myself "Nice mental institution! It looks just like a house. Nice of them to let the patients teach piano lessons"
Great post, Art. I've been thinking a lot about the racial elements myself.
I've heard a lot of complaints about MM avoiding the race issue and I have to say I don't quit agree. The very first scene of MM is Don conducting his market research with a black waiter and there has been casual racist and anti-semitic slurs since early S1. MM has subtly been keeping the racial theme in play all along. It hasn't "dealt with racism" in the conventional way, because MM is not an afterschool special. The unusual thing about MM is that it isn't conveying its racial themes through the perspective of victims of racial inequality. The only perspective that we get from is these (mostly) rich and privilaged white people.
It's an interesting perspective to take because our characters are not hate-filled racist bigots, but they are also far from being liberal civil rights activists. The closest thing we have is Kinsey who had an inter-racial relationship for pretentious reasons and Pete who proposed a racially intergrated marketing campaign for profit reasons. In their own way I think Paul and Pete both meant well, but their approaches were too naive and self-interested to do any real good.
Betty has good relationships with Carla and her parents housekeeper, but her dream about Medgar Evars "speaking out" suggests that she fears the consequences of social change. Then there's Joan who seems to view racial equality as a novelty which she is not against, but she also doesn't take at all seriously. Roger with his blackface routine seems the most offensive character in regards to this issue, but Roger has little respect for anyone – he's not so much prejudice as just plain shameless. Don doesn't come across as racist, homophobic or even sexist, but he has shown little interest in changing the status quo. The rich white man being on top suits him and even though he often seems to loath white privilage, most of time he is more likely to grudgingly go along with it than challenge it.
So this is the racial perspective we have. No character is strictly bigotted, but nobody is satisfyingly progressive either. I'm guessing the racial theme will be expanded at the same pace as the civil rights movement. It would be nice to see characters like Hollis and Carla slowly being given larger roles, but even in their brief scenes they already come across as very strong and very wise people. It's the white characters clumsy reactions to social change and racial intergration that the show is focusing on and I think it's a very interesting well-portrayed viewpoint.
I thought the idea it was a dream was out there at first, but I'm slowly being swayed.
I thought the idea it was a dream was out there at first, but I’m slowly being swayed.
I'm just not sure what purpose it would serve for it to be a dream, rather than something real that happened.
Getting "it's not going to happen" from your boss is usually your cue to go ahead and take that new job. It's hard to imagine Peggy won't be out looking now, and honestly with a response like that, you'd kind of have to. I know he's tired and stressed, but honest to god Don, for a guy whose livelihood depends on empathy, sometimes you are really dense with people.
(I hope she doesn't follow Duck because you just know that will end in tears. Of course, I suppose could just as easily work out that Peggy lands at Grey and they appreciate her talents there, even while Duck flames out once again.)
Sex & the Single Girl comes out in '63. Helen Gurley Brown really recommended job hopping to move up. No one boss would ever reward a woman appropriately. She'd always get stuck.
#412 falafel
thanks! i definitely agree that MM is not an “afterschool special” complete with stated lessons at the end of each episode. although there are issues of race, gender, class, and sexuality rife within the show, those are the very same issues present at any relevant drama. this show presents it in a realistic and unabashed manner (for cable tv, at least).
i’m not necessarily calling for more prominent black characters (although, they would be welcome of course) but i think that it is interesting how the show can address racial issues with very little input from racial minorities. i’m still debating whether it is an asset to the show or a hindrance.
Sorry, guys. I’m entering the threat a bit late. I just watched the episode. Maybe it’s already been discussed — but the segment at the end between Peggy and Don and then Pete and the boys really struck me. Pete is man, and although he has a swell idea that should be considered….he gets a flogging for it by Cooper-Sterling…but he will always have a defender…this time in the form of Layne…who gives Pete’s idea of marketing Admirals among the “negro” population credence with his “it’s not wrong to pursue this…” In Peggy’s dialogue with Don…her mentor…she asks him for equal pay…she can’t even get him to say, “It’s a bad time…but I’ll look into it.” He says is “it’s not going to happen” and that’s that. Fascinating juxtaposition. Peggy’s the only woman in the board-room, who’s not there to take the notes, but she’s out in the cold. I won’t blame her if she leaves . Really cool episode.
Great episode (in a great season of a great show…)!
The quick shot of Sally smearing blood on her face was quite interesting, not something typical Mad Men does (or has done) but visually and emotionaly powerful, in my opinion.
With this, Betty’s dream sequences, Don’s birth in Out of Town and the music and dance scenes in My Old Kentucky Home, I can really see the series branching out in even “stranger” types of storytelling. I’d love to see an episode in which Don has a dream that takes up 30+ out of the 47 minutes. Yes, The Sopranos has done it before, but there’ve been many elements of that series that Mad Men has played with and, in my opinion, made something even better with it.
I really liked the contrast of the scene between Don and Sally (showing us how awesome and warm Don can be) and the scene between Don and Peggy just a few minutes later (showing us Don’s cold side).
Did anyone else think the dialogue between Sally and Don – “Are you looking for a chick?” – “I am” – was a nudge towards viewers, foreshadowing that Don is looking for another kind of chick, namely Sally’s teacher?
i think that it is interesting how the show can address racial issues with very little input from racial minorities. i’m still debating whether it is an asset to the show or a hindrance.
I know what you mean! I debate it too. But my current feeling is that the show is called – ‘Mad Men’. The focus on the show is white American businessmen and their society. In their world, women are stuck in the roles of secretaries, housewives and mistresses, gays are in the closet and ethnic minorities are on the fringes in quiet servile jobs. But we know that the sexual revolution and the civil rights movement is coming. The world of the Mad Men is going to be shifted and overturned whether they like it or not.
The ‘twilight sleep’ terminology of the labor/delivery really intrigued me. So much so that I called my mother and quizzed her about a few things.
I was born in December of 1969 in the Midwest, and at that point, mothers were given the choice of the drug that induced the ‘twilight sleep’ type of labor, or to be awake with a local anethetic. My mom was somewhat undecided, but her OB/GYN was apparently of the ‘old school’ guard and let her know that, in no uncertain terms, he was not a fan of the mother being awake.
Of course, she remembers nothing of the birth itself, and said it was very true-to-form when we saw the scene of Betty waking up with a baby in her arms. ‘Course, my mom says she smiled at me, nodded, and handed me back to the nurse and asked to go back to sleep. lol
Having the father in the delivery room was strictly verboten also, even though it was almost 1970. My dad was apparently in a room similar to Don/Dennis.
Did anyone on here have a baby during this time? This really intrigues me.
Oh and count me in the ‘dialogue with Dennis’ being a dream for Don, also. I’ve rewatched it several times and I can’t believe how I missed it the first time. It seems obvious to me now. YMMV.
I can’t speak to how similar Mad Men having conversations be imaginary would be to House, as I haven’t watched House for a few seasons (right after the storyline that originally brought Anne Dudek and Kal Penn in), but I can say unequivocally that, if these conversations Don’s having are imaginary, they are in no way ripping off of Rescue Me (probably my second favorite show, after Mad Men).
Rescue Me, and before it Six Feet Under, used conversations with dead family members and others as a way of vocalizing the character’s inner dialogue. Even when the deceased that came through the Fisher’s funeral home in Six Feet Under, their existence in that world was established prior to the characters having ‘conversations’ with them.
But in Mad Men, if these people are in fact not real, then they are complete and utter figments of Don’s imagination.
I personally think these conversations are real. Mad Men has never really shown any signs of surreal inclinations, whereas Six Feet Under was often a vehicle for the characters’ fantasies, and the ‘Tommy talking to dead people’ thing in Rescue Me has been an established device in that show since the beginning.
**I’m just not sure what purpose it would serve for it to be a dream, rather than something real that happened.**
My reaction when watching it, and I remember others saying it, was that the dialogue was a little on the nose for what the show usually does. (Rich and Michael even mention in the Kevin Pollak interview how MW avoids that.) Almost everything the guard said kinda hit you over the head with its relevance to Don. Initially, I just took the oddness of it as them being drunk, and I’m still not saying that’s not it, but a dream sorta fits, too.
I suppose the purpose would be to make the dialogue hyper-real, but unless a lot of smart people were obtuse all of a sudden it was not made obvious it was a dream. This means that either it wasn’t a dream or will possibly be confirmed as one later.
Maybe the dream happens decades in the future and is caused by an Oz marathon followed by an episode of The Simpsons.
Interesting back-and-forth on the race question. Since the story is obviously told mostly from the perspective of the priveleged white males who are oblivious at best, MW has the characters basically look foolish through their own words and deeds. The few black characters in the show, while in relatively powerless positions, are actually quite wise when compared to the whites they are “serving”.
– Carla rolls her eyes and smacks down Gene’s nonsense, while being the only one who actually does real work taking care of the kids and the house.
– Hollis is very patient with Pete’s ham-fisted elevator market research.
– Viola is a beacon of comfort and wisdom for Betty.
– Kinsey’s ex-girlfriend seemed truly enlightened and intelligent, unlike Paul himself, who’s “enlightenment” seems ripped straight from the Princeton dinner club manual. Noblesse oblige and all.
The collective effect is to make the whites look like fools in their dealings with blacks. And I haven’t even mentioned Roger’s blackface routine, which takes the idiocy to a whole new level.
I’m not enough of a student of the civil rights movement to know for sure, but perhaps these characters are drawn in the vein of Martin Luther King, whose brilliant oratory was matched only by how stupid the whites who fought him looked in contrast. Soon, of course, his voice was joined by different ones from the likes of Malcolm X and Stokely Carmichael. Maybe we will see black characters with those types of voices as the show progresses, but for now it is fascinating to watch the elite whites crap all over themselves without realizing it.
Hope that made sense.
Forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere and I missed it, but I've watched the episode three times, and each time in the classroom scene where Betty tells Miss Farrell that her father died, and Miss Farrell reaches out to Betty with a sympathetic touch, it appears that Betty recoils from Miss Farrell, ever so slightly. Did anyone else notice this? And if so, what do you suppose it means? Just discomfort at being touched by someone you don't really especially when you are heavily pregnant and not feeling all that great to start with? Or something else? I recall that in Episode 3, Betty was quite willing to have a total stranger touch her stomach.
**I’m not enough of a student of the civil rights movement to know for sure, but perhaps these characters are drawn in the vein of Martin Luther King, whose brilliant oratory was matched only by how stupid the whites who fought him looked in contrast.**
Ahem, and there are no modern parallels to this. That’s my official story — that your comment reminded me of nothing going on today.
I love this site; I lurk frequently, and post occasionally.
I am an African American female (Sally’s age), and a MM fan since the beginning. I am enjoying the portrayal of black people in the show-the characterizations are subtle and “on pointâ€. I laughed out loud when Carla said “We don’t all know one another Mr. Hofstadt!â€. At my mostly white college (in the ‘70’s), I remember having to explain (on a number of occasions) that just because many of the black students hailed from the same city that we did not, in fact, know one another prior to entrance. I also had to deal with, “sorry, I thought you were so-and-so†because we all looked alike (not!).
The Sam, Carla, Hollis, Viola, roles are in the background because I imagine that’s how it was in 1963 in “Sterling Cooper/Draper†land. I can’t wait to see how the rest of the season unfolds, given the uptick in the Civil Rights struggle in 1963.
I have to say that I marvel at the commentary and analysis on this site. It’s fabulous!
Helen – Betty is an ice queen, and I think the reason she let the man touch her stomach is because, well, he was a MAN and he was fawning over her, despite her 'condition'.
I'm probably oversimplifying, but I can't imagine Betty would be receptive to anyone making a friendly overture like that. Unless, of course, they're an attractive male and she can play coy with him.
I think Betty recoils from the teacher because she isn't sure what the teacher was going to do. The man who touched her stomach at the party asked her if it was all right to do so.
I think the "friendly overture" from the teacher would have made me recoil too. It isn't something I would expect a stranger to do.
Don in the grey suit and the grey-tone tie like a b&w test pattern — walking towarsd obsolescence, kept reaching for his hat.
#421 Andrew: I agree, Mad Men really isn't the vehicle for surrealism. It worked for Betty this week because she was under some powerful drugs. (When someone drops LSD on the show, if they want to go there that's fine.) For me the hallmark of the series is its (and Wiener's) steadfast adherence to realism. For that reason I didn't care for Don's birth fantasy sequence in the premiere; it seemed too overtly stage-y and felt off to me, especially when a simple flashback would have conveyed the same information.
Also, the whole idea of this-is-an-unreliable-narrative/everything-you-know-is-a-lie! just seems played out and cliched to me. It's been around at least since St. Elsewhere. To me it's almost as overdone as my-antagonist-is-secretly-my-father. I don't need left-field gimmicks; I just want well-told stories and strong characterization.
If, for some crazy reason, Wiener wanted to take it there, I'm sure he'd do it differently (in degree) from House or any other series that did it. But I hope he doesn't want to; I certainly don't think he *needs* to to create compelling TV.
Andrew: p.s. In House, he's having conversations with Dead Amber and Dead Kutner, but they're just avatars for his own fractured psyche. Basically, the scientific explanation is that he's having a psychotic break, probably caused by his drug abuse. But he's also dealing with something of an existential crisis in his own solitary way–by becoming his own patient, in a sense.
I hope the above isn't considered spoilers, because, you know, last season. But if it is feel free to delete the post.
It's so telling and revealing how Bert and Roger don't take to what Lane is saying about tapping into the African American market.
Indeed, as Nat King Cole once said, "Madison Avenue, is afraid of the dark."