Sep 132009
Here it is, folks, the oft-pivotal fifth episode of the season.
For those who are new to the Basket, we open the doors at 8pm eastern, and Basketcases just start adding thoughts as they come; while they are watching, and then long through the week. Sometimes Deborah and/or I are here, sometimes not. Doesn’t matter. This is your time.
Have a look around. Old posts a’plenty, exclusive interviews, and a newly revamped (thank you Deb) About section, which serves as a little bit of a BoK tour, and includes our terribly important comment and spoiler policies.
So grab a gimlet and enjoy!
433 Responses to “Open Thread: The Fog”
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The capsule synopsis:
Pete Campbell follows through with a new business angles; Don and Betty Draper attempt to deal with their daughter Sally; Betty has a bizarre dream.
Watching Bears-Packers, listening to RS and MG on the Kevin Pollack show (where they are being awesome, per usual). Note to the Lipps: We could probably serve that up as an embed after the fact.
Before we go into tonight's episode, I need to get something off my mind: Who is the president of the new Sterling Cooper?
Has they mentioned anything directly on the show? Mr. Pryce is a financial officer. We all assumed Duck was fired because of his drunken outburst and the fact we haven't seen or heard him mentioned this season…but Mark Moses is credited on IMDB for tonight's episode. Has he been in London? Or is he back for unfinished business?
Insight, please!
Pollack just mentioned the "interview about Harry's walk" they found during research. Heh.
Duck, would you excuse us for a moment?
Duck is back!
Big foot sighting.
"Children don't belong in graveyards" is the new "Grieving is just extended self-pity."
Sally didn't go to her grandfatherr's funeral either.
A bullet from the back of a bush took Medgar Evers' blood.
A finger fired the trigger to his name.
But Don just empathized with the hot teacher, anyway.
Is this the same teacher as the maypole?
Same teacher
Lois is Kinsey's secretary!
Lois: still not a great secretary, but now we know who got stuck.
Duck, duck, goose!
Duck still has the ducks!
I'm at Grey, now. So are my ducks.
Herman (Duck) Phillips working for Jews? What has the world come to?
Don't take your bra off on my account, Miss Farrell.
"Hi, this is the hot teacher. I needed a pretext to call you at home."
Oh jeez, I hope the teacher doesn't become one of Don's new ladies…
Duck!!
uh-oh, I think the teacher is trying to become Rachel.
Teacher has the vapors!
"betts, shhhh – talking to a brunette."
Once again, episode 5 pays off.
…and Don lies about the call.
Hang in there Bets – see you when the kid gets here
Mom's water never broke either.
It's Lisa Simpson!
Ohhh, Yeardley Smith!
Lisa Simpson is the nurse!
Hey — that nurse is what's her name from everything.
Don meets the coolest, random people
It's the actress who plays Lisa Simpson — Yeardley Smith.
"One minute, you're in a bar when they tell you your kid's been born…" –Roger Sterling.
Don Draper is always working.
Karl, I was just thinking of that line from Roger!
Wow, we are all collectively so excited about Lisa Simpson. ::Grin::
teacher was the same young lady at the Maypole with flowers in her hair – wasn't she?
wow, best madmen ever.
lol shave/enema. never thought I'd hear that combo on this show.
Damn. This episode might just top My Old Kentucky Home in quality.
And so does Don!
I've never had kids, but for some reason I'm feeling sympathy pains for Betty right now.
sorry for the redundancy – I didn't read the top of the thread.
When I was being delivered (1958), my father spent the time across the street in a bar with some guy drinking mint juleps. He would tell me the story every birthday.
@42
Like the old saying, "Shave and an enema, two bits"
Did the teacher say her name was Suzanne Farrell? Shout out to another dancer.
s'okay Chuck — happens a lot in this thread.
I love how this guy drops hint after hint and when Don finally asks a question, he teases Don for finally asking.
"just jesterday there was a riot in cell block #9"
Betts deserves lots of pain during this – maybe she will actually "feel" something!
Yes, a ballerina in her next life?
Sorry – that was a reply to Suzanne Farrell! Here goes that dream!!
Again, the larger thing of what parents make of their kids.
Don: "That's a BS excuse."
But Don is clearly a reaction to his upbringing.
Is this going to be a "good trip" or "bad trip" for Betty?
Oh my God. What a sequence.
I'll have what Betty's having.
Poor little fathers?? Such a bore! Waiting for baby!
My Mom has no recollection of my brother's delivery – twilight sleep
Don picked up Balzac from Sal!
Oh, we WILL be discussing this episode forever.
Don learns from everyone.
Oh, Daddies are always happy to welcome a fellow penis into the world!
Dennis just jinxed him.
Transition starts at 10 centimeters, not 7.
Mr. Hobart is not an expert in honest guys.
Is it just me, or does Don often have a constipated look on his face?
A fresh start for Don? With the teacher?
That conversation between Don and Dennis was anvilicious, even for this show.
There's something really profound at work with Betty right now, beyond the troubled delivery.
lolol
Wow, all the Betty hate.
foobella,
Just outside the office, when he can't get the free Secor laxatives.
Did the warden call Don a "wise guy?"
@ Zif #72
I agree. Every word whammed Don over the head, either about his past, present, or future.
Ahhh, I see, Karl.
The warden? I must've missed that! So glad I just found this blog!
Hebrides…. British Isles setting for I Know Where I'm Going… great movie from the 1940's.
What did Betty say before "I don't want to be here?"
Music from Sex and Lucia! So cool
from Frug at gather.com
anvilicious describes a writer's and/or director's use of an artistic element, be it line of dialog, visual motif, or plot point, to so obviously convey a particular message that the viewer feels as if he is being hit on the head with an anvil.
Well, they were there for many hours, they only showed us the symbolic moments, all the rest were totally prosaic.
Transition starts at 10 centimeters, not 7.
____________
Wrong, Deborah. I'm an L & D RN. It begins @ 7-8 cm. Women often feel the need to push but can't until full dilation at 10.
WHAT, LISA SIMPSON??? I wish I had cable. Have to wait for iTunes download tomorrow. GRRRRR!
Is that Song of India?
Foreshadowing of Betty in asylum…
If Betty's going to have drug-induced fantasies, I'd recommend going back to the one with the salesman and washing machine.
If it's a boy, they should call him Eugene #3
Jane, thanks. I remembered it as when you were ready to push at 10, but I dropped out of nursing school a long time ago.
Is this Twin Peaks?
OMG – its Medger Evers!!!
Finally, some one on tv giving birth actually sweats!
This is almost full-on transcendent television. I can't explain how brilliant this episode has been.
Yes, Twin Peaks! That's why I love this show so much!!
@ 93- No, it's The Sopranos. The Test Dream and all.
little actor, right on cue
Could this episode get any better?
Were we all named in a fog of demerol?
I love Allison.
Cue the postpartum depression subplot.
I hate Roger.
Hah! I love Roger…
"No name yet."
Oh shit! Duck is trying to take Peggy?!
Duck seems to be fishing the pond.
WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE.
Heh, Pete and Peggy are not going to be awkward at /all/.
WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE!
I also hate Roger!!
good move Pete. And Peggy get the hell out now.
Hey Peggy, we need some more shiksas where I work
Oh yes, because secret meetings with Duck have such a successful track record…
Elevator research, very scientific.
I hope Pete isn't going to ask Hollis if he knows 'Viola'.
Pete is the Bizarro-world Don from the pilot.
So freakin' awkward.
re 98: Oh man I was thinking sopranos when Don ripped the page out of the magazine hahaha. We WILL be talking about this one, that's for sure.
I laughed so hard when Betty told Don he looked terrible. I guess because Betty looking terrible is so beautiful.
arg arg arg I love this show.
and constipated has always been the word that's come to mind when I think Don Draper's face.
"Every job has its ups and downs."
Hollis has more ups and downs than most
"Every job has its ups & downs." A classic MM line from Hollis the elevator guy.
I know this might sound like hyperbole, but this episode has taken the show to a whole new level.
Don managed to get a complete stranger to give him a Lucky Strike slogan, and Pete can't even get the elevator guy to speak with him… he needs to work on the interracial communication skills.
Stupid commercial – "Be a man – drink vodka".
I love Ketel One.
#118 "I hope Pete isn’t going to as Hollis if he knows ‘Viola’."
I'm sorry that's the funniest thing I heard in about a month.
did I not just put "ups and downs" in my personal ad for Hollis?
Was that an elevator joke?
Pete's inability to communicate to anyone beyond his own terms was just made very clear.
@ Ms. Darkly #130
ROTFL! That's where I remember it from!
Kids not allowed in hospitals! Oh I remember that one!
Look, it's the last scene from "Yours Mine & OUrs!" Betty with the baby at the window.
@118 – classic.
I remember waving to the window because of visiting rules SO clearly.
Conversation in the elevator: "ups and downs". Funny Pete.
Looks like Betty's heading back into denial territory.
This kid that plays Sally may get an Emmy!
It was so good to see Betty smile for the first time for real since the second season.
Sally looks about 35 right now.
Wait. What just happened in the hall?
Where's their baby?
"Not all surprises are bad."
Ah, Don, I like you again.
Uh-oh, doesn't look like things ended up well for Dennis.
Betty in the hospital for 5 days? A week? The rest of the season?
Yeah, the pal is looking like he may regret his new friendship!
Targeted marketing is born.
"I don't think that's legal."
"I don't think that's legal."
What the heck was Don cooking? It looked like ground beef with an egg cracked into it.
…The references to the schoolteacher suggest that she'll be Don's next conquest. Ew.
Sirk all over this episode. Especially viewing the baby scene.
@152- maybe corned beef hash from the can?
Oh, honey, we're still working on that equal pay thing.
So you'll fight for paperclips, but not for me? That's what I wanted her to say.
Don has a dead bolt on his door!
Corned beef hash — most definitely.
corned beef hash with fried egg. just like my dad cooked. He only did breakfasts.
#155 – True that!
That may well be the finest acting of Elisabeth Moss's life.
wow – Peggy's "out the door".
"To the ladies room – want to join me?"
"You decisions affect me." Ouch!
"The ladies room, want to join me?" bwahahahahaha
Peggy's descisions affect Pete? Hmmmm….how so?
Ouch!!! But not unjustified, Pete.
"Your decisions affect me."
I do believe we were recently discussing whether the Peggy-Pete arc was over.
It's not.
Oh, snap!…To /both/. That was awesome.
Corned beef hash explains the constipation.
#166 – Well, the decision to give up his baby, for one.
Okay, so, Liz Moss just gave the most subtle, nuanced performance of her career there. Does Don know what's about to happen?
Bunny Watson,
The deadbolt was seen being installed in the S2 premiere.
#170
right on.
Eeek, could've done without the Clorox "keeping whites white" commercial after watching that block of the show.
Uh this is a TV show. Peggy is not leaving SC
I hate the part of the commercial where they say maybe a man or two used the washer — total reverse sexism.
#170 LOL
"What do you want me to say?"
"I don't think I could've been clearer."
I love this show
Jerry Colvin – I love that movie!
and where is Joan?
@ CPT_Doom #179
“What do you want me to say?â€
That's what Don always says.
“I don’t think I could’ve been clearer.â€
Peggy is the first to hand it back to him.
Danielle, looks like they need Joan to read the scripts.
"do you have any idea how many hand jobs I'm going to have to give?"
Peggy's in a jam but she's too smart to throw in with Duck.
Damn Betty, a boy named Gene will be pummeled on the 1970's playground! Hope they call him Scott.
"It's never as good as you think it's going to be."
Shaving, enemas, and hand jobs.
Pete really was disgusted at the black face, I guess. Dude has layers.
There's money to be made…yikes.
ALSO YAY ANNE DUDEK!!!!
Francine is back!
I've been hating that clorox ad all season I'm so glad to see I'm not the only one!!! Am I supposed to like laundry cause Betty did it or something… and yes, reverse sexism to boot! I am so glad to see comments about that here.
Roger's pretentious pinky ring!
No Carla? That's a recipe for disaster.
uh oh, I think she is going to have post partum….
It's like watching Betty's soul get crushed in slow motion.
ms. darkly on the dot. Did I already ask about Pete's racism arc? Dude does.
interesting end.
Um, Betts — get help.
Is that the Maypole music selection?
"You want something to eat?" and Betty says "Sure" and starts to get up the make something. That must suck to think you are in charge of all the cooking and household stuff–even after popping out a kid.
Oh, Joan! And office drama! And Harry angry in an undershirt! I am so excited for next week..
Wow at the previews.
What is that music from?
I don't know what to say, but that was stunning. Emmy-worthy episode in every respect.
I'd love to get that song by David Carbonara for the Betty sequences.
There could be a separate subject thread for every single scene in this ep.
Just noticed the map in the classroom. "We do not recognize Res China or the USSR"
Very very fabulous episode. All actors fantastic jobs!
Red
That preview made me INCREDIBLY nervous…
Once again Pete was right about something and ahead of the curve as he has been in the past and nobody listened to him. Why would a company object to making money.
What did she pause for? My TV is too dark I couldn't make out what she was doing.
I'm really surprised that the normally open-minded and capitalistic Bert didn't back Pete on the integrated advertising idea. We've got a long way to go.
Loved seeing those old Ebonys. My great-aunt must have kept every one from the 50s until the mid-90s. I'd love to see Pete going up to Harlem to do research and buy an Amsterdam News. I guess they might have sold them all over the city though.
Seriously so much happened! I'm glad I'm not a Lipp Sister cause I have hair that needs washing and laundry that needs folding! There aren't enough hours in a day.
I'm pretty sure it's Song of India, isn't it?
I love that Don got up and walked from that meeting.
@ Bunny Watson #218
I'll bet it was because of the time Roger's wife stormed in on him unannounced.
My cousin had twilight sleep for her last pregnancy in the late 1960s — scopolamine. She said it doesn't take away the pain but you can't remember the pain OR the birth. All the stuff that happened to Betsy in the hospital is what the natural childbirth movement was trying to change in the 1970s.
Don: "Time has stopped."
OMG! We had an Admiral tv in the 60's – and we're black , too!
Seriously, what Pete proposed was incredibly radical and incendiary. Integrated commercials? Targeted marketing of a 'majority' product to minorities? I'm not sure this is somewhat anachronistic.
I wonder when the first integrated commercial was aired on tv?
I've got this great Taschen book, The Golden Age of Advertising- The 60s, and there's a 1964 ad for a 1965 model color RCA starting at $399.99. I was a little surprised when Pete asked if Hollis had a color TV, since I'm pretty sure it would have been a bit out of his budget. Then again Pete is clueless. I wonder how much Hollis is paid?
There's a 1963 ad for a Motorola model for $229.99, but it doesn't indicate color.
So Duck is not longer at SC, so who's the Prez? Or does PPL think SC doesn't need one as a cost cutting measure?
What did Ken say about time?
#222 Chris –
I'd say the baby, Don is the type of guy that prides himself on not being wrong-footed by women, especially ones that he's only met once, briefly.
Why do I see string for that caterpillar?
What do you think was the intended meaning of the caterpillar in Betty's hand during her first dream? It was dangling from a tree when she was walking on the beautiful sidewalk and she held it in her hand and then closed her hand around it.
National advertisers at that time were terrified of offending whites in the south.
Caterpillar equals baby … maybe.
Chris,
That sort of caterpillar might well descend on a "web."
Dennis accuracy about his own optimistic future was discredited the second he called Don "an honest guy."
Here's some fun from Advertising Age:
ADVERTISING HISTORY TIMELINE
A 295-year synopsis of the most important events in American Advertising, 1704 to 1999
http://adage.com/century/timeline/index.html
#239 … The "string" could be the beginning of the caterpillar (Betty) beginning to spin it's cocoon to become a chrysalis … which will become a butterfly eventually.
@ #238 & #239
We're going to be analyzing that dream for-ever.
Has anyone noticed the multiple verbal references to "time" ?? Time to go, maybe it's my time, this isn't a good time, etc. etc. — plus Ken's new watch — not sure what it signifies. Times they are a changing?
Betty with caterpillar — needs a cocoon & chance to become a butterfly.
Teacher: Really reminds me of someone; can't think who.
Note that Don never opened the baby gifts. I don't think he's exactly overjoyed about the newest addition. And of course Betty didn't get her girl; just more men to serve.
Her story arc reminds me so much of "The Women's Room" except I really can't see Betty in grad school.
People get ready, there's a train a comin. The only question is who's on board that train.
Now we know why Roger did that horrible blackface routine. Roger is out. Thanks for the mammaries Roger.
Most interestingly positioned as one foot in and one foot out is Pete Campbell. I say he's in.
Peggy, obviously in. Sal, in.
Paul Kinsey? In. Harry and Ken, who cares?
Don Draper? What would we do without him?
Well, if the caterpillar doesn't get to finish spinning its chrysalis, it will never become a beautiful butterfly. Perhaps it represents Betsy, never quite growing up (so far).
"You're a housecat. You're very important and have little to do."
Line of the night.
FWIW, my book has a Budweiser print ad from 1962 featuring four black men. I guess actual intergration came later. The other ads feature black people in service positions- a waiter in the California Zephyr train's Cable Car Room, and baggage handlers (I'd presume) in a big photo of TWA employees.
Did everyone except me get why betty's mom was standing by this black guy in the kitchen? Because I didn't want to ask because as usual my TV took 5 minutes to warm up and I thought I missed something. Now I'm re-watching and it doesn't make any more sense than the first time.
Medgar Evers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medgar_Evers
According to her teacher, Sally was obsessed with his murder.
when betty paused in the hallway at the end, the light through the blinds looked like prison stripes on her back.
Betty crushed that caterpillar. Snow White in hell.
# elaine #252
The black man is Medgar Evers, who was just assassinated (Sally's teacher mentioned it, and there was coverage of the funeral on T.V. while Don was in the waiting room.) Dream Ruth tells Betty "this is what happens when you speak out."
http://www.bobdylan.com/#/songs/only-pawn-their-g…
I was wondering who that black guy with Betty's mom was too. Also, what's up with Dennis's sour look in the hallway?
I wasn't sure whether Betty actually crushed the caterpillar… but if she didn't, she certainly held it in a suffocating grip.
@247 Millicent — Yes, I wonder what the author of "The Women's Room" would say about this show! Marilyn French died in May this year.
Her 1985 book "Beyond Power: On Women, Men, and Morals" is one of my all-time favorites.
Duck is full of sh!t. He expects creative to shine in this new place but at SC he was saying that creative was overvalued.
And Don's out 1/2 day and it backs up decisions. Yet he was out for weeks last year and nobody missed a step.
Betty's dream sequence where she ends up in her house and sees her father and mother was reminiscent of Grey's Anatomy where Meredith went clinically dead and saw her mother (and assorted other recent dead people) on the "other side". Didn't Meredith's mother tell her she needed to go back and live? Gene told Betty she was important – what exactly did he say?" You'll be OK. Don't worry – you're a house (xxxxx), you're very important, and you have little to do." Cryptic.
So was Medger Evers apparent presence in her dream due to his murder being in the news that day? Or perhaps to serve as her mother's object lesson about "what happens to people who speak up."
@257 — The man is Medgar Evers.
Possibly, something happened to the baby.
I have a bunch of quotes up already, and a few cultural references.
I didn't realize the black man in the dream was Medgar Evans. Nice.
THANK YOU, guys: Ms Darky, Melville, Jules… I don't know how you get these references so quickly. Except for maybe intelligence.
The midnight snack scene between Sally and Don was precious. Scenes like that make me melt for Don. (Little Kiernan does a fine job, once again. I'm really liking her character. I totally identify – the last few episodes have been quite therapuetic for me. I am totally spending time thinking about my childhood – more than ever. )
It's interesting that as the civil rights movement grows on the show the black characters have more to do on the show, Carla a few episodes ago and Hollis in this episode. I wonder if this will continue.
And while I'm being ignorant and uneducated what is the name of the piece playing at the end? I know it but can't name it and therefore can't wiki it.
The black man in the kitchen with her parents was Medgar Evers. There was blood on the collar of his shirt, Gene was mopping blood on the kitchen floor, and his wife was holding a bloody cloth behind the man's head.
His death was being discussed on the TV in the waiting room where the dads were sitting. In addition, Sally's teacher told the parents — or at least Don — that Sally had mentioned Medgar Evers. Too much unsupervised TV watching. We won't take the kids to funerals or graveyards but we'll let them watch monks burning on TV.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medgar_Evers
Kater Gordon is 27. F my life.
@260
Chuck,
Don went missing before the Brits took over
Melville, thanks for catching that Gene said Betty's a "housecat" – very important with little to do. All I was coming up with was "hausaufgaben" – which is I think German for homework, and trying to make a connection to Gene being Pennsylvania Dutch….
Betty's regarding the caterpillar, and crushing it in her hand so it would never get its wings, reminded me of that wonderful ending of Shoot, with Betty shooting at the birds after her dreams of becoming a model again were crushed.
@257 — I think Dennis's downcast glance when they passed in the hospital hallway while he was pushing his wife in a wheelchair was due to embarrassment at all he had shared with Don — especially his vow to be a better man. Easy to promise, hard to live up to, eh?
Why is Betty cognizant of something like Medgar Evers?
I almost hate to ask and expose my stupidity.
On rewatch this is all getting emotionally harder.
@@276 — Because it was in the news and the teacher mentioned him in regard to Sally. Perhaps a seemingly random detail from her subconscious that has deeper meaning — concern about taking risks.
@275 — good point.
@260 — I think everyone's on edge under the Brits and they need Don's reassurance and protection for fear of being undercut by the evil overlords.
Re: opening the baby presents. I don't think a 1960s man would do that — his wife would open them and send all the thank-you notes.
My theory about the encounter between Don and Dennis in the hospital hallway.
Dennis's baby has died, and when he sees Don he remembers the bonding in the solarium the two shared, but quickly reverts back to grieving father. His wife is not hoding baby boy Hobart as they pass
Peggy looks at the baby booties and says "Third time. It must be old hat for you." She looks at Don and Don looks at her and they both know she's talking about her baby. An awesome moment.
I'm not sure where to begin, so here it goes. Duck knows talent when he sees it. I was pretty sure Peggy was going to ask for a raise this season. They can't have the show without here, but I'm not sure how it's going to work out. Pete and Peggy have a strange relationship. I don' think he's holding out for her. He knows she's no longer interested in him that way. Perhaps he likes seeing her, watching her. If he can't have her, then being around her is the next best thing.
I loved the echo of the pilot. It so clearly shows the difference. Don sees blacks as potential customers for what he is selling, as does Pete. Don is much more smooth and polished in the way he goes about it.
Pete is so far ahead of his time, it's mind boggling. He's slimy, and a weasel, but there's also a sharp mind in there too.
Don is not going to be happy if she names the baby Gene, but we'll see how that turns out next week.
I thought the dress in Betty's dream sequence didn't ring true. Those straps just didn't seem right for 1963, even if it was a dream.
It's interesting to have the Brits in charge. They have no understanding of race relations in the United States. It may cause problems for clients. It should be interesting to see how this plays out during the course of the season.
@278
Plus, he would need to drive into Manhattan to get the presents home, and not take the train into the city
I didn't see Betty squash the caterpillar, I thought she closed her hand protectively around it. Perhaps it represents the baby and she wanted to put that baby back inside, so she didn't have to take care of it yet. Hmm, which is worse, the last weeks of pregnancy or the first weeks of newborn care?
Peggy gave up her baby for her career. Her career is her baby. Maybe it's time for her to take the next step. A woman has limited time to be "fruitful."
I hope if, as the series gets deeper into the 60's and civil rights becomes more of a subject to explore, Matt Weiner will attempt to be as authentic in his African-American characterizations as he is with other aspects of the show. The 3 characters of Hollis, Carla and Sheila seem a wee bit too contemporary. Frankly, there would be more duality to all of these people in how they maneuver through the white world of the 1960's. I would've like to have seen a more nuanced Hollis in the elevator scene w/Pete. I heard the dialogue, but didn't see it in the acting.
Well, BBD&O has a black copywriter, IIRC
@279 Jules — Yes, I didn't see a baby in Mrs. Hobart's lap either. But perhaps Dennis was wheeling his wife down to the nursery to see the baby together.
My recollection of when you're being discharged is that a hospital staff member would accompany the entire family to the curb and the mom stays in the wheelchair all the way, with the hospital staffer pushing her. They wouldn't let the couple exit alone. Did anyone see them carrying a suitcase?
I didn't get a good look at what Mrs. Hobart was wearing. It didn't seem to be a hospital gown, but I think someone mentioned that Betty was staying 5 days, so Mrs. Hobart would have also — and Betty obviously had her own sleepwear.
OK… have not commented since the end of last season but did anyone else notice that as Peggy is telling Don she wants everything he has she is touching the baby gift she just gave him with the baby booties? That is so harsh for her… Don really does have everything and she has done what he advised her to do after she gave up her baby… to come back to work and put it all behind her… what would it hurt if he threw her a bone? She's right about the other account reps… she was right about the whole Ann-Margret sequence… and Don has always been behind her before… Does anyone besides me miss seeing Don's incisive advertising mind at work? Haven't seen much of his brilliance in the craft this season… is celibacy making him impotent at work?
I don't buy that Peggy is at all sentimental about the baby she gave up.
@288 — BG Maggie, I thought that Peggy was very deliberately fingering those booties to remind Don of what she HAS given up, with his advice and protection of her secret. The way she looked at him seemed very direct, not a spontaneous emotional appeal.
According to wikipedia, Medgar Evers was buried June 19, 1963, and we were shown coverage of his funeral on the waiting room television while Don and Dennis were there. So the baby was born June 19th or 20th.
I don't see Peggy as being sentimental. She did tell Pete she wanted to have children eventually. Peggy is trying to figure out what she wants. It seems to her like she has to chose between career and family. I wonder if she will try to impress the chairmen when he visits. As we've seen with Roger, she's not afraid to ask people in authority, if she wants it badly enough.
@289 Chuck, I agree that Peggy's not sentimental about the baby. Heck, we were at her sister's place and never saw or heard anything about the kid! He must be 2.5 or 3 by now?
Who is the actor who plays Dennis the prison guard? I've seen him before but can't think where.
Chuck,
I wouldn't call it sentimental, but it is a part of her life — that decision. Peggy made a decision to pursue a career and gave up a child to do it. Even under the best circumstances, even today, there might be a sense of The Road Not Taken.
@ Peggy Joan #290
I agree. It was a very powerful reminder of what they both know about what she went through. It's a strong component of her loyalty to Don, but also a reminder to him of what only he knows she gave up.
eesh, I feel the need to clarify that — I think she has largely made peace with the decision, but that doesn't mean it never crosses her mind.
To Peggy, the baby will always represent the road not taken. Late at night, I'm sure she still wonders what would have happened if she had kept it.
Not surprisingly, Weiner and Chase are credited with writing "The Test Dream" on IMDB. I wonder if he'll mention it in his weekly video.
@265 born in 1950, me too. I wasn't allowed to go to my grandfather's funeral in 1968 (was 10). My father was in a bar across the street from the hospital drinking mint juleps with "Plesident Laws Conquest the third" when I was born. I loved those special but rare one on one times with my dad. I served hor d'oerves to my parent's martini drinking friends. etc. But, I did know my parents loved me – and my mom and I spent every Saturday together – I would go with her to the beauty parlor, then to lunch and shopping or whatever.
#288
I think what we're seeing is Don starting to lose touch with the pulse of society as society itself is starting to undergo the massive changes of the 60s.
Don's judgement didn't just fail him on the Ann-Margaret campaign that episode, he completely misjudged when he stepped into Pete's account and talked to the Jai-Lai client's dad.
"It’s interesting to have the Brits in charge. They have no understanding of race relations in the United States. It may cause problems for clients. It should be interesting to see how this plays out during the course of the season."
I thought so too. I wouldn't be surprised if Pete's farsighted 'blunder' is actually going to work in his favour in the long run.
And also "Mayhem", part two of Tony's season 6 coma dreams.
I was a little shocked by Don's lack of responsiveness to Peggy. OK, maybe he genuinely felt he couldn't do much about her salary immediately, but why couldn't he acknowledge that she had a fair case? Or that as soon as opportunity allows, he WILL go to bat for her?
Don doesn't seem to care much about the work any more, so perhaps what's going on is that he can't even be bothered to hide his apathy, with Peggy or anyone else.
whether betty crushed the caterpillar or not isn't made explicit but, by the way the sequence was shot, by Gene's comment, by Betty's fingers and her widening eyes – I got the feeling she crushed it. she made me uneasy for the entire episode…her drugged state and her coca cola modeling state are very similar – at least in the unreality of their colors.
#121 – I thought about that too! Tony Soprano, at his psychiatrist's office (IIRC), tears out a page of a magazine…he doesn't care that someone else might want to read it, he's the center of the universe. I didn't get a good look at the page Don ripped out – there was a car on it, was it the same Cadillac he drives?
@300 BG Maggie, I'm actually pretty impressed with Peggy's raise pitch — I think Pete would've just blurted out that Duck was trying to hire him away!
Peggy has learned a lot from Don and Joan about keeping the cards close to the vest. Plus, she wouldn't confirm or deny to Pete what she had just said in Don's office. You go, girl!
No one except poor Chauncey would willingly go with Duck — but Peggy and/or Pete might flirt with the idea for awhile.
Did anyone else think Dennis' baby died and that's why he didn't acknowledge Don in the hall? That seems to be the consensus on another board, as well as the fact that the hospital switched the babies!! Am I the only one who thinks this is nuts?
Switching the babies is fan nutsiness.
Yes, they left without a baby. I think the baby died. His not acknowledging Don was still weird to me.
Subtlest comment about the growing civil rights movement: Betty saying that they couldn't keep Carla because "she's been away from her own family." Just like Hollis's comment that "we have more important things to worry about."
Don has just checked out of the agency. Remember, he walked out of that meeting about paper clips. Plus, he had no sleep and was lying down when Peggy came in. I suspect he will consider Peggy's request.
@ Barbara #309
the hospital switched the babies!!
WTF? Where did they get that one? Maybe if this was As The World Turns. Yeesh!
Couldn't they have just been wheeling down to the nursery? I mean, the guy said he had to watch what he did outside of the prison – maybe that was his way of pretending he never had the conversation with Don?
Well, some other boards are still wondering if it's Don's baby, so I'm wondering if I'm in the "remedial" board over there. You guys seem to have more "adult" comments…
Thanks Peggy Joan. I mean, they were both smiling until the dad saw Don. I think he was going back to his "tough prison guard" face and putting up his "outside world" face now that it was over.
I need to hang out here more often. I like the way you all think.
I got a bad feeling from Dennis and his wife. I'll have to watch it more closely next time sincd I can't quite put my finger on it but the wife also seemed sad to me and she doesn't know Don at all… They just made me feel very uneasy.
the hospital switched the babies!!
That's pretty goofy, but it did make for a excellent episode of The Dick Van Dyke Show.
While I watched the scene in the waiting room, I thought about how open and sharing the guard was and how the things he said to Don were so sharing — and how that was probably not the norm for the guy. So, seeing Don could be embarrassing.
Had to freeze-frame the birth certificate–I was also born in '63:
Eugene Scott Draper
Born June 21, 1963 @ 4:58a.m.
Born in Tarrytown, lists the Draper address in Ossining
Mother: Elizabeth Hofstader, born Cape May, N.J.
Father: (in different, clumsier handwriting) … Draper, … Calif.
#314 Welcome to the cool kids table! Yes, this is the most wonderful, insightful MM blog!
After all the CRAZY postings on other sites about the man kiss with Sal in episode 1 this season, I had to search out intelligent life.
Thank you Lipp Sisters and (most) all Basketcases!
Don said to peggy–it's all going to be alright. he's treating her like sally.
BTW, isn't the extra in Sal's expense acct about the amount he was going to tip the Bellboy at the hotel?
In the scene in the hallway where Don passes Dennis and his wife, Dennis' wife was still in her jammies and housecoat. I would take this to mean that they were not in the process of leaving the hospital without a baby. Maybe Dennis was just rolling his wife down to the nursery. And the wife looked like she had a smile on her face.
Just guessing, but Dennis made a big production out of promising Don that he would be a better man. Maybe Dennis ducked his head because he had already failed in this promise and couldn't look Don in the eye.
i have a dream speech coming up in aug 1963
Actually Martin Luther King Jr. previewed the "I Have a Dream" speech in a famous Freedom March in Detroit on June 23 — two days after little Baby Draper's birth, apparently. There are poignant photos of Dr. King and many, many prominent black and white city and business leaders walking shoulder to shoulder, with thousands of people thronging Woodward Avenue, hanging out of windows and even on rooftops witnessing history. Don's child was born at the dawn of a momentous era.
As to the prison guard — he was pretty toasted in the waiting room — I don't take his impersonal gaze in the hallway to be anything more than that "What did I say?" remorse tough guys feel when they let their guard down. (No pun intended.) People are actually dreaming up switched-baby scenarios about this?
Ah, twilight sleep delivery – somehow fitting for Betty, who goes through life half-oblivious anyway…
Who called it? ME!
I’m rather confused about what’s going on with Betty in the episode — I’m looking forward to reading the ‘hash-out’ from fellow Basketeers ~
(teacher has definitely gots-the-hots for Don – I wonder if that will play out)
I think Betts paused (and leaned against the wall?) because she’s exhausted, getting up in the middle of the night, and facing a wailing baby who is sleeping in her dead father’s room and will not stop crying until she heats a bottle in the kitchen.
@173 Karl, I don’t remember the deadbolt – any special reason it was installed?
@217 Thanks! I couldn’t see anything in the bottom half of the screen, wasn’t sure if she was getting or messing with something. I need a new TV, an Admiral perhaps?
“Let me get my keys”
“They’re in your hand”
Is that Don being nervous because of the baby, or because of the teacher?
#218 I think it was from the whole Bobbie Barrett thing. Dont want unannounced visitors when she is visiting.
“pineapple, what were you THINKING?”
Another lol
Teacher has a drink, unbuttoned her dress, bra strp falling down
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_(electrical_appliances)
Haven’t read any comments [homework limits my free time tonight] so sorry if this has been said. Here are my thoughts:
- School teacher reminds me of Jennifer Garner. And she seemed like a character from Hair.
- Yeardley Smith needs to be in every episode. Seriously. ‘Hey Peggy, we found you a new assistant who used to be a nurse. Her name is Lisa.’
- The dream sequences were beautifully shot and very Stephen King.
- I think Duck’s return will have more of an impact than we may think right now.
- Just like with Meditations and Kentucky Home, Kater Gordon rocks it. And Phil Abraham rocks it. Total win in my book.
- Kiernan looked like January in the midnight snack scene.
- Baby Gene in Grandpa Gene’s room won’t go over well with Sally.
- WTF happened to Joan?
Has anyone noticed that the use of the stairwell shot when Don arrives home with Betty & baby has been used before? It was used when Betty took the kids with her on vacation (I believe) and Don arrives home and calls out for someone, only to find out that they left without him. This time around, the same thing happens. Same kind of entrance and he calls out and receives the response he didn’t receive before.
Bunny Watson,
The deadbolt was installed so that the Pete Campbells of the world don’t pick up your packages of Dick Whitman photos.
Exactly, Karl
So much in this episode. Can't even process it all. Will have to watch at least two or three more times. Lots of good stuff, though.
lol I have never seen anyone chuck an eggshell with such panache as Don Draper.
http://www.slate.com/id/2225274/
Is Grey’s getting all of Sterling Cooper’s cast-offs? Didn’t Menken’s go to Grey’s?
With the birth of baby Eugene Scott Draper on June 21, we're nearly at the end of June.
On the U.S. civil rights front, later that Summer, August 18, 1963 is when James Meredith became the first Black to graduate from the University of Mississippi. Ten days later, Dr. King delivers his "I Have A Dream" speech at the Lincoln Memorial. Then, on September 15, 1963, the bombing of Birmingham Alabama's 16th Street Baptist Church, kills four Black girls.
So, there's lots for Mad Men to weave into upcoming episodes.
Hollis is right – Black people in 1963 America have more on their minds than which brand of TV to buy!
#281 RetroGirl: Betty did name the baby; Eugene Scott Draper. It looked as though she handed the filled-out paperwork to the nurse while she was alone in the hospital.
On another note: Men probably didn’t generally open baby gifts but contrast the scenes today, in which the gifts were prominently (unopened) in several shots, with the baby shower for Harry. So it WAS done.
In the scene with Peggy, Don seemed deliberately obtuse. Maybe he’s just tired and didn’t want to be bothered but whenever anyone starts out a conversation with “I’m grateful for all XYZ Co. has done for me” you know they are on their way out; it surprises me that he wasn’t more dismayed by Peggy telegraphing that and that he didn’t exert himself much. Even to say “Give me a day or so to think and we’ll talk.” He instead likened her to paper clips.
You all may be right @289 & @290… Peggy is looking at it more like a guy… she’s not getting compensated… but she knows Duck is a pig who does not appreciate creative at all… she would be a fool to leave a creative mentor like Don for clean desk/bottom line Duck…
I’m waiting for Don to break free from the chains and start his own shop with Peggy, Joan & Pete… Jerry McGuire… you had me at hello!
Got to get to bed now… thanks basket cases… you all help clarify SO many things… keep up the good work!!!
@314 – Barbara, LOL — yes, this is the “adult” table. You must meet the legal IQ to imbibe in our delicious cocktail of knowledge and supposition. No soap opera evil twins, amnesia — other than short-term and alcohol or drug induced — or switched babies need apply!
Dennis was pretty sauced when he bared his soul to Don. I think he’s a little embarassed that he dropped his front. He’s a tough guy.
I’ve been lurking here a while, but never commented.
I think we were treated to another “inside” advertising bit tonight. Duck returns, now working at Grey. He tries to lure Peggy with promises of a wonderful atmosphere for creatives there. Genius, they want.
Spent 30 years in the ad industry, and Grey never had a reputation for great creative. Smart, but with unexciting creative.
Duck is precisely the kind of account guy I’d imagine being scooped up by Grey during the 60s creative revolution in advertising; Grey wasn’t Doyle Dane anymore than Sterling Cooper was, so Duck is a fine cultural fit for Grey.
Have to say I loved the return of Duck. Granted, there aren’t many really likeable characters on MM, but Duck is the only one I think of as a true villain. His potential for mischief is delicious to ponder.
#322- Don told Peggy “You’ll be fine”, which, after watching the 2nd rerun, I think is his way of saying to her “there’s nothing I can do, but if you need to move on you’ll be fine”. I think Don would make a case for her if he thought he could make a difference. But it seems he has less power now than he did when Duck was there. Which makes you wonder why he’s still there at all–other than that he has a new kid to support now.
#306- Oh, Betty definitely squished the caterpillar. She’s having fantasies about killing pupae…can we confirm she’s resenting the pregnancy now? Beautiful Hitchcockian rear-projection sequence, BTW.
#309, #314, #315- I’ve always said to anyone who’d listen that, at heart, Mad Men is a soap, but it’s the best written soap in TV history. What’s subversive about it is that despite the over the top premise of Don’s identity switch, the drama is ground in utter realism. The moment they introduce a baby swap plot is the moment I lose interest in the show.
I thought the episode last night was the best one so far this season. I, too, noticed that the teacher's name is Suzanne Farrell, I perked up! Suzanne is my all time favorite ballerina — one of the greatest ballet dancers of the 20th Century and Balanchine's Muse.
Also, I thought the dream sequences looked like Twin Peaks, as a couple of people have commented.
Man Men often has echos of Douglas Sirk as well.
The one fly in the ointment was Sally's teacher. She really stuck out for me as a 2009 person rather than a 1960's one. She didn't even seem like an ultra-modern, forward-thinking 1960's woman. From every mannerism to every word of dialog, she didn't strike me as someone who could have grown up before the 1980's-1990's.
I don't think Carla has quit. But I do think she had been working extra hours while Betty was in the hospital. She will probably return to her previous schedule.
And–was that a new Cadillac? Don tore out an ad in the waiting room….
Well that was quite an episode. Number 5 did not disappoint. I had to “sleep on it†to begin to get my head around it and even then only have a few observations:
First, we have serious time theme going on here. There are the references to the watches – on the guys from the office who measure time who are “in time†if you will. We hear Mr. Pryce complaining about the waste of paper and time. Peggy asks if this is a good time and finds our later that it is not a good time. At the office your boss controls when time is good or not good.
Measured time is important at an office but not so much at a prison where you could lose your watch and where time is not as important. When you go to prison you lose you power and are reduced to nothing – you become a thing and measured time is no longer as important. Betty enters a place where she loses power over everything including time. She later enters “twilight time†the fog is close to the land where there time does not exist and people like her father, mother and Medgar Evers reside no longer “in time.â€
We also have people as “mirrors†being held up to Don – forcing him to look at things from his past and about himself. Not quite Dickens here but Sally’s teacher takes Don to his past – they share dealing with death at an early age. Dennis shows Don his present self – he can barely look up as Dennis unknowingly hammers Don with his renewed commitment to be a better man. Finally we see a reference to the future – Peggy’s future. She wants in her future what Don has now and it is with genuine surprise that Don asks why?
I honestly don’t know what the deal is with Dennis’s child and the glance in the hallway. Maybe Dennis lost his child. We know that Don has a lot and is being reminded not to take it for granted.
Finally, good on Betty for asserting on the name – she asserts a bit of control in the hospital – that was a flash of old Betty!
I hate that Don lied about who was on the phone when he & Betty were leaving for the hospital. Not a good sign, Don!
I suppose it could be interpreted as Don not wanting Betty to get worked up over the incident with Sally at school, and deciding not to bother her with it. But this being Don, it seems unlikely that he's going to be able to keep it in his pants for much longer (and I'm sure he hasn't gotten anything at home in a while.) Hope he wasn't boinking Miss Farrell while Betty was in the hospital!
I thought the crushed caterpiller was Betty crushing her own potential for growth. Her caterpiller life will never turn into a beautiful butterfly.
Her mother, by the way, was not the exquisite beauty that Betty has always held her up to be.
And Don’s out 1/2 day and it backs up decisions. Yet he was out for weeks last year and nobody missed a step.
Don's 3 weeks last year were before he told Roger he looked foolish.
Carla quit before Grandpa Gene died. (Guessing.) Betty accused her of polishing off the Melba toast, she did not like being around the old man, and she did not want to take care of a newborn and him. She would have stayed if it was just the baby but not the baby plus Gene.
Carla didn't quit. She'd probably been working live-in with the kids while Betty was in the hospital, whereas normally she just works days. She needed to go home and Betty was being decent, whereas Francine was interested in keeping Carla prisoner because Betty's needs, and Betty's kids, are more important than a black woman's.
RE:
Eugene Scott Draper
Born June 21, 1963 @ 4:58a.m.
Born in Tarrytown, lists the Draper address in Ossining
Mother: Elizabeth Hofstader, born Cape May, N.J.
Father: (in different, clumsier handwriting) … Draper, … Calif.
It just struck me (oddly for the first time) NONE of the Draper children have a legitimate name.
Just saw this episode (on iTunes time here) … haven't read all the comments yet, I will, I just have to blurt this out: RUN, Peggy RUN, let wind shut the door behind you, run and don't look back, Pete will follow, Don will go his own way, no one will blame you, RUN NOW, it IS your time!
Duck had ducks on his office wall.
I really like Pete, cluelessness and all. He did connect with Hollis at the end with the "baseball" comment, and I think Hollis' opinion of him rose a bit.
I really don't like Peggy. How does her secretary know how much she makes? How does she know how much Paul makes? And now she's dogging the one guy who plucked her from the secretarial pool?
I hope Pete and Peggy keep getting thrown together. It makes for some really good scenes by a couple of fine actors.
So Duck is not longer at SC, so who’s the Prez? Or does PPL think SC doesn’t need one as a cost cutting measure?
I think next week's episode title (Guy Walks Into An Advertising Agency) is the clue. Wasn't the english dude from "The Nanny" – his character's name was Guy. You just know he's coming back…
Heehee, zatopa, I was saying the same thing! No matter how much Peggy achieves at SC, her humble origins there will always be in the backs of people's minds. Don, the one she owes the most loyalty to, isn't able to do any more for her. It IS her time.
Betty has never been my favorite character & last week’s show made me dislike her more. But seeing her deal with Childbirth 1963 definitely made me feel for her. Not that childbirth is a walk in the park today, or so I’m told.
But childbirth in even earlier days–or in poorer environments–was rougher. (And this was on Don’s mind.) His mother said she felt “cold”–she probably bled out; Dennis’s wife was able to get a transfusion. I’m pretty sure their baby was in the nursery–because of the rough birth, the Mom will be in the hospital a bit longer than Betty. And Dennis avoided Don’s eyes because, dammit, he’s a Prison Guard at Sing Sing–who revealed his sensitive side thanks to stress & scotch. Back to normal!
Today, don’t guys often get leave after a child is born? To help their wives–who usually leave the hospital ASAP–& bond with the kid? Don was criticized for taking half a day off & was still exhausted when he talked to Peggy. The idea of a raise for her will now percolate in his brain; he may be able to come up with something.
Lots more to this episode….
@ 334- I was born in '77, and as far as I know, the public schools in most of Westchester start the Wednesday after Labor Day, and end around June 22nd. Granted, the schedule might have changed since the 60s, but it was realistic, though cutting it close.
I wonder if Betty will send the kids to camp this summer?
Did anyone else find it odd that Sally was still in school – it’s mid-June by these accounts. I know that these days many schools run later and start earlier, but even when I was in school in the 80′s, we didn’t start before Labor Day and we were finished by Memorial Day.
Carla quit before Grandpa Gene died. (Guessing.) Betty accused her of polishing off the Melba toast, she did not like being around the old man, and she did not want to take care of a newborn and him. She would have stayed if it was just the baby but not the baby plus Gene.
Now Betty can have a proper nervous breakdown and/or get drunk to escape the chaos around her.She has nowhere to turn: no Carla, no parents. Only Don.
Deborah, didn't Betty say the kids were at Francine's when they were about to go to the hospital? Maybe it was just for the night, and Carla took care of them by day? But yeah, I got the impression that Carla's leaving was related to the tensions down south–maybe she has family there. Of course, no Carla bodes ill for Betty.
Isn't Roger acting president of SC? What *is* Roger's title there, anyway, besides being the Sterling in Sterling Cooper?
@#281 – I agree, the straps did not seem right, and in the last scene, Betty's bra strap is again peeking out, in the same "cross-wise" pattern in the dream scene. I wonder if this holds any significance. Also, Teacher's bra strap was falling. Perhaps this is leading up to "burning bras" of the future???
Great posts!
I grew up in Westchester County, suburb of NYC, in the 60's, like the Drapers. School went until mid- to late-June always — depending on the number of snow days you had!
I had the strong impression Peggy was manipulating Don by handling that little baby bootie–reminding him of their strong, shared bond. What a tactic in a salary negotiation. Wow, Peggy!
Don will have to do more for Peggy. He knows that now. But it remains to be seen what.
So much going on in this episode! I’ll have to watch the Don-making-eggs scene a couple of times before I get all the subtext.
Didn’t Duck have a non-compete clause in his contract at SC, as he expected Don had? Or is that only for creative types? I certainly didn’t expect him to be jumping on the biz-cazh bandwagon so soon. He’ll be in a Nehru jacket next.
What the heck was Don’s objection to naming the baby Eugene? He and Gene clashed a lot over the years, but I thought they had come to a sort of grudging respect at the end. I yelled at the screen, “What’s the matter, Don, you’d rather name him Archie or something?”
I saw the caterpillar as a symbol of new life – both the baby’s life and the new life he was bringing to Betty. Her connection to the baby – symbolized by the silk thread – was her connection from her dream world to the real one, and she was hanging onto it for dear life. Ruth with Medgar gave me chills.
“I left my lunchpail on the bus. And I’m having a baby.” Heeee!
Peggy is giving birth to a new life as surely as Betty is. I saw a parallel between Betty’s “It’s time to go,” and Peggy’s “What if it’s my time?”
Loving the semiotics of the bra straps … callback to Maidenform in part, I think, the "foundation garments" have been holding women in their socially sanctioned structures. Now, they're starting to slip. Times are indeed a-changin'. I think the teacher's strap slip is a sign of trouble, though — she's a free spirit in the first place, it's what Don can't resist about her. With Betty, when a strap is showing, it's disarray, something is very wrong, it's about the complete loss of control that was childbirth in 1963.
Technical question: Any tips on where I could watch the preview of next week's episode? The "Sneak Peeks" on the AMC site are not the same thing.
As to Francine/Carla: Betty sent the kids to Francine because she went into labor at night, but no way did Francine have them for a 5-day hospital stay.
Zatopa, I haven't been able to figure out the previews thing either.
Peggy is looking at it more like a guy… she’s not getting compensated… but she knows Duck is a pig who does not appreciate creative at all… she would be a fool to leave a creative mentor like Don for clean desk/bottom line Duck…
Except for episode 3.03: "They hate creative." She is appreciated by Don, but she doesn't expect to be appreciated by anyone from accounts. She just wants to get ahead on her own career track.
I too am having some trouble figuring out who exactly is running the show at SC these days. Maybe the Dennis-Don exchange is describing Roger. Its like he’s a King (was "Bonnie Prince Sterling") but his subjects may want to kill him!
Next week seems to be ready to shed some light on the management of SC – what do you all think?
I’m listening more closely to the lines from the visiting characters like Connie and Dennis. Don’s exchanges with them seem to leave a decent trail of breadcrumbs to follow.
Peggy's Payscale
When Peggy was promoted by Don, wasn't her pay $35 a week($254 in today's money)? And now she says she only makes $71 MORE per week than her secretary? So she makes minimum $106/week($746/week in today's money)?
Also, regarding her reading of the Equal Pay Act from 6/10/63 – that did not apply to executive, administrative or professional women("white collar") until a new clause was added in 1972.
She is appreciated by Don, but she doesn’t expect to be appreciated by anyone from accounts.
Makes you wonder how aware Peggy is of the exact circumstances of Duck leaving SC. Do the people at SC have any idea that Duck went off the deep end denigrating the contribution of Creative, and was subsequently shown the door? I imagine Pete told everyone after the fact that Duck had told him he was going to be president. And, they'd have been watching the conference room door like hawks, so they would have first seen Don storm out, and then seen Duck slink out, and then would have been left to draw their own conclusions about what transpired inside. That must have got the office rumor mill a'churnin'!
Hope Peggy has her eyes open enough about Duck to know that her life at Grey wouldn't likely be very fulfilling either. Not that she shouldn't play that card anyway. While PPL re-arranges the deckchairs, the Titanic is going down. Either SC gets some new leadership real quick, or it's everyone for the lifeboats. I've been in that kind of situation at work, and while it's easy from the outside to see that the ship is sinking, it's not always quite so clear to those on the inside whether it's just another little leak that can be repaired in the boiler room, or whether it's time to jump ship.
Peggy might be damned if she does, and damned if she doesn't. Be nice if she had the confidence to find a third option besides staying at SC (much as I love her relationship with Don) or latching on to that oilslick Duck.
I would like to watch a baseball game with Hollis and Pete. I would like to see Hollis and Pete do the Charleston. I think Hollis and Pete should have their own TV show, something that evolves out of arguments they had while riding the elevator at work. They could call it PTI: Pardon The Integration.
Also, on the "time" theme – didn't Betty, upon discovering her pregnancy, say several times "It's not a good time."
Well, let's face it. None of them are having a "good time."
Except for Ken. He's always having a good time.
Ah Ken. I used to think he was the way he was because he was from Vermont … but this season he's morphed into the Jeff Spicoli of Sterling-Cooper High. I think he found the marijuana long before Paul did.
I think it's possible Peggy may be invoking the spirit of the Equal Pay Act rather than its letter.
I think Roger's infantilization is complete now. The ice cream was the finishing touch.
@Aran – and he's having a whole lot more fun with it than Paul is.
“I’m waiting for Don to break free from the chains and start his own shop with Peggy, Joan & Pete”
I would say Peggy and Sal for sure. Joan is off Don’s radar, but perhaps she’ll work for Peggy? No way Don would hire Pete. Not gonna happen.
# 341
I think the ad that Don ripped out of the magazine is for one of Pontiac's "Muscle Cars" that were introduced in '63 or so. Maybe the Bonneville?
Duck and Non-Compete: Hardly ever were such contracts enforceable. Courts, especially in New York State, tended to rule that a person had the right to earn a living. Also, it is likely that part of settling Duck's contract would have been the agreement he could work for Grey Advertising. Almost certainly St. John Powell would consider Duck working for any competitor a good thing, assuming Duck would have additional break-downs.
Equal Pay Act of 1963: Peggy was not an executive, despite her office. She was not an administrative employee. She was not a "professional" under the Act. Therefore eventually she would have been entitled to equal pay.
Unfortunately during the rest of 1963 all interstate employers were in a state of confusion about Equal Pay. Labor and Employment attorneys were billing maximum hours. I was an executive with a major movie studio in 1963. In anticipation the EP act would pass, we researched our studio to find out if female writers were paid less. Those covered by The Writers Guild of America were always paid according to the union collective bargaining agreement. By early 1964 we made sure our non-union copy writers did get equal pay. Workers at ad agencies were not members of unions. It is possible Peggy was not paid fairly, but it was 1970 before the first pay discrimination cases reached the New York or US Federal courts.
The newspaper Peggy read may not have given exact details. Or she may just have been blown away by the concept of equal pay for equal work.
#366 — Roger's infantilization. Great!! He said "Da-da."
I thought Slate made an interesting commentary about Betty's dreams and how she sees herself as a cross between a Disney Princess and a child. But Disney princesses never have to face the realities that Betty does, like getting up in the middle of the night to care for a screaming baby. That final scene said so much, I predict Betty will slowly retreat from motherhood.
I have an "am I crazy?" question …
When the teacher was telling Don and Betty about Sally's outburst at the fountain, was there a quick shot of Sally with blood (or ketchup or something red) smeared on her left cheek? It was Nouvelle Vogue (as was so much of the episode), but afterward I wasn't sure if it had happened or if I had imagined it.
I'd really appreciated if someone with a DVR could check!
As a newbie"Maddict" and first-time Basketcase I have a question about Don's background (I'm still playing catch up with your episode synopses.) I was struck by his onehanded crack-and-open the egg in the skillet of corned beef hash. Did he ever work as a short order cook?
Also, thank you to #339 Virginia's info on Suzanne Farrell; did anyone else see a pun in the 9/11/09 "Pearls Before Swine" comic about the "feral ballerina" ?? http://comics.com/pearls_before_swine/?Page=4
Thank you Lipp Sisters and all Basketcases for this wonderful site!
not sure if this was brought up at some point in the thread, but does anyone think that don didn't actually have a conversation with the prison guard. i believe the prison guard existed, but whether he talked to don is what i'm wondering. this also connects to when don talks to connie at the bar. both are similar; they involve booze and don talking about and revealing important elements about his past to a stranger. this can also go into the beginning of the season when don is having the images/dreams/reminiscing about his mother being born ect. i'm not sure what this is building up to, whether it means that don is on the verge of a nervous breakdown, if it's some result of alcoholism or what. can anyone else think of an instance where don might be imagining having conversations with people this season. it would have to be in the same structure though, revealing something about his past, and drinking. i'm also thinking the person will have to be wearing some sort of "costume" (i.e. the prison outfit, the tux.) ok. just wondering if i'm actually the crazy one.
Dale Cooper, that is the first outlandish theory that does not strike me as crazy.
There was a magical, surreal quality to both of those conversations–absofuckinglutely. This gets my vote as having real potential, and you sir, have a beautiful mind.
(see what I did there?)
This was a great episode and as usual left us with more questions than answers. And this blog is the only place to get them plus intelligent analysis. I agree, this show would never go the "switched babies" route.
So, my take is that Dennis was embarrassed about his "unmanly" emotional exchange with Don in the waiting room. Therefore, the downturned head in the hallway.
Carla's departure signals trouble for Betty for sure. Post partum?
Excellent dream sequences, many questions. Thanks for explaining the Medgar Evars appearance — really didn't catch that one.
Betty and Don are so stiff as parents. Perhaps that's a little bit overdone. Betty really doesn't have maternal instincts. And now a new one. No doubt Sally will be messed. We get it.
I'm not really sure what Betty wants. Out of that house, for sure.
Don seems out of touch with creative these days and a little powerless too. There's going to be a shakeout but the key characters will survive. They have to.
Peggy's choice at the time was career but who doesn't have regrets. Certainly she does but this story is about a woman not being able to have it all.
The birth story was interesting. Women didn't have much to say about their own bodies in the 60's. By the 70's women were demanding more control over childbirth and going the natural route. It wasn't as bad as one might think, but it was brave choice.
The Maypole teacher is definitely going to factor into Don's life. She didn't seem quite the free spirit as before. But I think Don's headed toward loosening up himself.. the restraints of SC are becoming intolerable and he's perhaps the prototype for the more modern ad man.
The decade saw many many changes. We're looking at them all.
I just don't see much more play for the Roger character. I think Duck was a brief interlude in this episode.
The civil rights movement is going to play big in upcoming episodes. All the hints. Hollis/Pete, Carla, Medgar Evers, Admiral buyers. Pete's "survey of one" was a riot. But you never know. We don't ever know what to expect. And we do a lot of thinking. Getting us to think is what makes this show so great.
#372 – Katie – Yes – I looked for that again (because I thought I imagined it) and it's there. A very strange one shot of Sally wiping something on her cheek (mud? blood?). It's very odd to have that flash shot – I don't know what it means. It doesn't make sense with the water fountain story either.
Equal Pay Act of 1962 – covers only equal pay between men/women UPON HIRING. Once you are working somewhere that "law" has no influence. Theoretically once you are hired there are pay differentials based on performance. Since Peggy is already working – it won't help her. The only way she could litigate is to go back to when she was promoted to creative and see if her salary was commensurate with other male starting salaries.
#374 – I wonder if it might apply to Don's phone conversation with the schoolteacher.
That "switched babies" meme prompts me to ask: Anyone else remember the hilarious "That's My Boy?" episode of the Dick Van Dyke Show that was aired in September, 1963? Remember the punchline? I was Sally's age when I saw it first-run, and Rob Petrie's face when he opens the door still makes me laugh out loud to this day…
Here's the page on that episode on IMDb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0559810/maindetails
#377, Outlandish yet, but everyone's free to float their ideas here. I just don't think the conversations were imaginary. I think they were just good opportunities to get a peek inside Don's psyche through conversations with outsiders– something you can't get in conversations with Betty (do they even have them) or at SC.
As I said, this show gets you thinking. Sometimes we over-analyze.
the theory may apply to the school teacher, BUT it doesn't fit the mold of how don is having these conversations. the two conversations i pointed out are singular moments, and they deal directly with a personal aspect of don's life. plus, i think everything with the school teacher will lead to an overarching plot line. (which is something i'm not sure how i feel about.)
i to would think that my theory is a little over analyzing, which is why i dismissed my idea originally with connie. the thing is this season has taken on a much darker and more dream-like quality, and i feel like things are becoming more abstract. as the characters begin to emerge into modernity things are beginning to break down. like the talking heads say
"as things fell apart, no one paid much attention."
Dale Cooper: no offense, but I hope you're wrong. They're already using that plot in House.
I too like your thinking Dale. A co-worker fan asked me about the show last night and without giving anything away I told him it had a certain David Lynch quality. Even if Don's conversations with folks like Dennis and Connie are quite real they sure have a surreal feel to them. They are strong medicine for Don – like snippets of the longer conversations with Anna Draper of S2. Real or unreal they are important and bear extra attention.
I know this episode isn't supposed to make the audience cry, but gosh darn it, it made me tear up.
I mean first with Miss Farrell saying that she lost her father when she was eight (which happened to me and probably lots of other eight year olds), and then Betty having a dream-like encounter with her father and mother, which put me over the top and made me start crying. (But I was able to pull it together and finish watching the episode.
)
Of course I wasn't alive in the sixties (I was born in '91) nor have I ever given birth but … dang! I rarely ever cry when I'm watching a tv show. And of course Mad Men is not just any tv show.
@gypsy howell #361
Makes you wonder how aware Peggy is of the exact circumstances of Duck leaving SC… That must have got the office rumor mill a’churnin’!
I don't that Peggy is that plugged-in to the office grapevine. When she gave Don the baby gift she said she didn't know that the others were going in on a gift together. I get the idea that The Boys still don't think of her as one of the gang (sharing pot notwithstanding), and the secretaries certainly don't include her in their group.
@ spike #381
Dale Cooper: no offense, but I hope you’re wrong. They’re already using that plot in House.
Also Rescue Me.
I do find the idea intriguing, as both of the conversations did have a strange unreal quality to them. I would almost go along with it, except that Nurse Lisa Simpson's Voice also addressed Dennis, which would probably prove that he wasn't just Don's subconscious talking to him.
Argh! Post #384 should begin "I don't think that Peggy is that plugged-in to the office grapevine."
Came across this while looking through the comments on the very good AV Club recap of 'The Fog' –
"Snape Kills Trinity with Rosebud
14 Sept. 2009 | 1:07 AM CDT
I thought it was a great exchange. Don's ripping ads out of magazines waiting for his child to be born (better than being in a bar, I suppose), and the prison guard*…
*= Whose surname is Hobart, the name of the rival adman that tried to woo Don a while back, but I doubt that's significant. "
Seems too big to be a coincidence, but we also know Matt has a fondness for repeating/having sound-alike names.
i think that dennis actually did exist in the waiting room. i think that the conversation that proceeded that was in don's head. connie on the other hand did maybe exist in don's head. as the season plays, don recounting his past in abstract ways could begin to materialize in other ways besides conversations. but as the season progresses don will begin to break down, i think.
i know they are doing the same thing on house, but i think with mad men it's a little more deeper than don just "seeing" people. i don't think it will play out the same way house deals with it. it could even turn out that it is never acknowledge that these conversations are figments of don's imagination.
"The Fog" is the second time this season that Pete has been part of a "twofer".
First, both Pete and Ken being named co-replacements for the unceremoniously canned Burt Peterson. And now, Pete and Peggy, being wooed by Duck Phillips to jump ship and join Grey Advertising.
Pete says, "We're not going anywhere. Well, she can."
Then, without missing a beat, Peggy says, "Do we have to go together?"
I don't think that Peggy or Pete will bail on Sterling Cooper, but Peggy (especially after her chat later with Don) seems to display "itchier feet".
#384,#386 – Gotcha the first time. Peggy is definitely an outsider which makes her persistance so admirable. She doesn't fit in but refuses to stay out. That's the only way a woman could (can) make it. She's the token woman in a world that will soon find its leaders like Mary Wells Lawrence.
"While Wells Lawrence isn't a household name, her work is legendary. She was the driving force behind such hummable campaigns from the 1960s through the 1980s as New York City's "I Love New York," Alka-Seltzer's "Plop, Plop, Fizz, Fizz" and Ford's "Quality is Job One." She ran the hottest agency amid an explosion of creativity on Madison Avenue. Then she, soon followed by her shop, vanished into the ad world ether."
Perhaps that will be Peggy's choice too inevitably.
Argh! Persistence, not persistance. And this from a former copywriter!!
@374- Now that I think about it, you may not be that off. Why are Don and Dennis the only people in the waiting room for hours on end?
Is there a separate obstetric ward waiting area?
#387…thank you! I thought that the name Hobart was familiar. I couldn't remember who it belonged to though. You saved me some digging.
Great episode as usual…I'm going to point out something that everyone hasn't noticed yet(or talked about at least)
It intrigued me that Pryce didn't want to let the idea go of using marketing strategies towards the black population. I know it would be very obvious for S-C to get the idea to use this strategy for certain alcoholic beverages(Bacardi, anyone). But, it did cross my mind because of the prominence of such marketing campaigns in the 70's and 80's(Billy Dee Williams and Colt 45 for example). But, I could be jumping ahead of the timeline.
Also, don't believe the baby-switching or the imaginary conversations ideas…although I do wish Don had imagined the first part of the trip to California last season. :/ I am more drawn into the Peggy storyline and I hope that Don wakes up and realizes what's happening before it's too late. However, true to form, I believe that Pete won't let that meeting just stay between him and Peggy. Lets not forget that he and Don have a rather interesting relationship as well. And I'm still not clear as to how much Don knows about Peggy and Pete's relationship. Is Duck the only one that had the smarts to figure it out? Is everyone else at S-C so self-involved that they didn't realize something was amiss with Pete punching Ken that time for insulting Peggy with that lobster joke in season 1(that has always bugged me)? Or not noticed him looking at her with contempt when she's enjoying herself(like in Maidenform)? I do look forward to more Pete and Peggy interaction….I love Draper, but the Pete/Peggy storyline just turns me into a silly fangirl. Gosh, they are good together.
Oh and I also noticed the Hobart thing. That was one of my favorite eps of season 1 with Betty and the birds. I love that Betty.
Oh and add Hollis to the list of folks that should go with Don when and if PPL/SC goes haywire. In Six Month Leave someone mentioned that Hollis was a writer and since then I've thought he could be the first black copywriter at SC. His POV would really add to that interesting mix of Peggy, Smitty and Paul. And we could see more of his lovely face on screen.
I tried to read thru everything so I didn't dbl post but didn't see this particular idea…
The LOOK in the hallway… struck me. I agree with the other opinions expressed here but let me add one more:
There's a part of Don that is all about how something LOOKS, how things are perceived… the Prison Guard was talking all about his (their) wives and "how do they put up with us" and talking about being a better man and then here is this man's wife in the hallway and she's plain and almost old-looking. I almost thought that perhaps he (Don) was thinking "THIS is the woman you were waxing poetic about?? How could you be SO happy?"
Everyone's talked about Peggy wanting to run – Pete struck ME as ready to run by the end of the meeting in Cooper's office. He's mad that he is not being given credit for his "brilliance".
Betty: loved the quote that she's a House Cat: tremendously important but there's nothing much required of her. SO not true, though, hmm? She is, whether she likes it or not, a huge influence on her children. Thought for a moment, given the nature of this show, that she might die!! whew!
There's another interesting moment between Don and the guard. This is all paraphrasing. The guard is talking about his work and how inmates fall in line because they know he will let them have it (essentially.) Don asks how they would know that and the guard pauses and changes is the subject. He also talks about not bringing his work home. I'm guessing he's not meek and mild-mannered either at work or at home.
Sally's fight
Is there a chance the Maypole teacher noticed Don on May Day(as he noticed her) and realized the "fight" was the last chance she'd have to see him before Sally was out of her class for good? Don and Betty never said "Yes, Sally did have a messed up bloody face after school one day". Granted, the funeral took up most of their time for the last 10 days(June 11, first possible day of the fight till the 20th, when the baby was born) but Sally did NOT look bruised at all, which certainly would've been seen on screen.
So the teacher notices Don at the Maypole dance, then uses Sally's Medgar Evans questions as well as "learning" about Grandpa Gene's death(the teacher looked so fake and overdramatic to the news), then calls Don that night to start things up.
I think Don was an added bonus and probably showed up because Betty was pregnant and had been through trauma enough. Not to say he isn't plenty noticeable — rumor is that he glows, in the dark even. So, not ruling out that she noticed him, but father's didn't routinely show up to these things.
And don't forget, Ms. D., he smells like frosting, so there's that too.
Couple of things that may or may not have been mentioned but I can't see that they have:
I thought the teacher touching Betty was a odd thing thing to do. I know she was being empathetic but I wouldn't want a stranger doing that to me.
Also, the light reflected on the interior window behind Pete in Paul's office was inconsistent. This is the first time I have noticed a glaring technical goof.
OK My daughter and I just finished this MM and the first 4. My 17 year old is giving me observations and insights that I would expect from her many years from now. I am very proud of her!
She told me to tell you guys that this season is s "bridge season" and is setting up for NEXT season…….. Well thats what she said!
Back to the idea that Don's interaction with the prison guard was a dream. This reviewer also thought that: http://www.tvfodder.com/madmen/archives/2009/09/m…
Late again, because I could only watch on DVR last night…
– Cannot, cannot, CANNOT say enough about how much I loved this episode.
– More and more, for me Campbell has become a far more interesting character than Draper. Pete's impetuousness, his conflicted loyalties, his relationship with Peggy, his progressive thinking in a clumsy and at times offensive package — the guy is so layered. Don, unfortunately, has been a bit of a one-note guy this season — bored at work, navel-gazing at home. I understand the reasons for this, but it's made him less compelling to follow.
– The Ruth/Medgar Evers sequence was fabulous.
– Really nice to see Betty smiling again. We'll see how long it lasts.
– Don't think Dennis lost his son. He clearly has issues (would not be surprised if he was a philanderer and/or spousal abuser) and was high on scotch, emotion and adrenaline when he bared his soul to Don. I think his prison guard "walls" were back up when he saw Don later.
– "Not all surprises are bad." What a wonderful line. Kiernan and Jon are great in their scenes together.
– Bert has these quirks that speak to his open-mindedness, but at the end of the day, he is as hardcore about the bottom line as anyone in that building. His part in the dressing down of Pete rang totally true.
– I have absolutely no idea what Peggy will do next, and I can't wait to find out.
After watching again last night, I have to add that the funniest line of the ep came from Duck: "Have a nosh." LOL
Duck is like Pete: You may not like him, but he seems to have a better fix on where things are going than any of the braintrust at Sterling Cooper. He knows that Pete and Peggy are the talent and the future and wants them on his team. But at SC, they are being refused raises and flogged. I can't see either of them leaving (how could the show work if they did?), but it's yet another sign of how SC is doing the long slow gurgle if they can't change.
What was interesting about the Duck scene is that Pete mentioned he'd been at Grey for two months, which indicates that there were a few months of unemployment.
@ TR #404
That review is starting to sway me. If the prison guard was really there, but his conversation with Don was Don's hallucination, that would explain the curt glance afterwards. Every word they exchanged addressed Don's fears and self-doubts a little too perfectly. Will the big reveal of the season be that Don has been having a breakdown without us (or him) knowing it? Interesting, except, as has been noted, this has already been done on House and Rescue Me.
#376 Elle: thank you!
what a brilliant episode! although, i was curious to hear what people thought when it came to the racial elements of the show. this is my first time commenting on this site, so go easy on me. i have a few points of observation.
the discussion between hollis and pete (mr. campbell) where hollis was noticeably fearful for his job while trying to hold back his commentary on pete's perspectives of "negroes" is linked with sally talking to her teacher about medgar evars (assasinated for his civil rights work…"speaking up") and how it surprised don that sally even raised the issue which is also linked with betty's dream when her mother said (standing above what folks here have decided is a mortally wounded medgar evars) "this is what happens when you speak out" and of course she has started to speak out to don (in earlier episodes) and the nurses (while in the delivery room) about don's absence and her not wanting to have a child and then finally linked with peggy asking for a raise in don's office.
i think it's amazing that this show sometimes dances around the issue of race and then sometimes dives right into it. it can be difficult, because the main characters do live in a segregated world despite living and/or working in new york city. the fact that hollis was the only black character with a speaking role in this episode and was subject to pete's "research methods" about what why he bought a tv and what he watches on it- the only reason pete would ever talk to hollis about what he would watch on tv is so that he can make some money from it. pete feels that his comfortability of talking with him makes him progressive (and he is, in a way, compared to his contemporaries) but at the same time this is not enough for hollis- he is not satisfied with pete's level of progressivism because pete doesn't understand that the american dream pete talks about is locked away from hollis- the very dynamic of the conversation forced hollis to smile when he really is insulted by pete's question.
moreover, speaking out about not wanting to have a child, about wanting to be treated as an equal in the workplace, or wanting to be treated as an equal period is the foundation to the burgeoning political movements of the 60s. they were each hallmarked by both foundational characters (betty and peggy) and peripheral characters (hollis) and hint at a point of convergence to the 2nd wave feminist movement and the black civil rights movement that (unfortunately…at least from my perspective) never actually met.
as a black male watching the show, i couldn't help but notice this intertwining of fates between these characters and i couldn't help but feel estranged from a show (given the lack of black characters) but at the same time feel drawn to it (as a quick conversation between pete and hollis really inserted a lot of racial commentary into the plot). brilliant episode.
#408 Melville
It is an interesting idea. Might explain why Dennis had the same last name as a character from an earlier season (Hobart).
According to that reviewer it was evident that Don was hallucinating/dreaming. It didn't strike me that way though. Although I suppose I did find their conversation a little deep and introspective. Especially for two strangers, who are men.
I haven't watched House since the first season and I've never seen Rescue Me, so I can't really speak as to how this device was used on those shows.
It would be a little disappointing to find out that MM is using a similar idea that is being used currently (or has been used recently) on another show.
Loved the episode though. That's one of the things I love about MM…keeps you thinking!
General comment: Those comments earlier about the idea of baby switching that is floating around other boards made me laugh. They reminded me of some things I had read on other boards. I did a lot of reading about MM before watching the show. (I came late to the series, and just recently got caught up). On one board there was the idea that Anna is really in a mental institution and that Don visits her there. When I finally saw the Mountain King episode I thought to myself "Nice mental institution! It looks just like a house. Nice of them to let the patients teach piano lessons"
Great post, Art. I've been thinking a lot about the racial elements myself.
I've heard a lot of complaints about MM avoiding the race issue and I have to say I don't quit agree. The very first scene of MM is Don conducting his market research with a black waiter and there has been casual racist and anti-semitic slurs since early S1. MM has subtly been keeping the racial theme in play all along. It hasn't "dealt with racism" in the conventional way, because MM is not an afterschool special. The unusual thing about MM is that it isn't conveying its racial themes through the perspective of victims of racial inequality. The only perspective that we get from is these (mostly) rich and privilaged white people.
It's an interesting perspective to take because our characters are not hate-filled racist bigots, but they are also far from being liberal civil rights activists. The closest thing we have is Kinsey who had an inter-racial relationship for pretentious reasons and Pete who proposed a racially intergrated marketing campaign for profit reasons. In their own way I think Paul and Pete both meant well, but their approaches were too naive and self-interested to do any real good.
Betty has good relationships with Carla and her parents housekeeper, but her dream about Medgar Evars "speaking out" suggests that she fears the consequences of social change. Then there's Joan who seems to view racial equality as a novelty which she is not against, but she also doesn't take at all seriously. Roger with his blackface routine seems the most offensive character in regards to this issue, but Roger has little respect for anyone – he's not so much prejudice as just plain shameless. Don doesn't come across as racist, homophobic or even sexist, but he has shown little interest in changing the status quo. The rich white man being on top suits him and even though he often seems to loath white privilage, most of time he is more likely to grudgingly go along with it than challenge it.
So this is the racial perspective we have. No character is strictly bigotted, but nobody is satisfyingly progressive either. I'm guessing the racial theme will be expanded at the same pace as the civil rights movement. It would be nice to see characters like Hollis and Carla slowly being given larger roles, but even in their brief scenes they already come across as very strong and very wise people. It's the white characters clumsy reactions to social change and racial intergration that the show is focusing on and I think it's a very interesting well-portrayed viewpoint.
I thought the idea it was a dream was out there at first, but I'm slowly being swayed.
I thought the idea it was a dream was out there at first, but I’m slowly being swayed.
I'm just not sure what purpose it would serve for it to be a dream, rather than something real that happened.
Getting "it's not going to happen" from your boss is usually your cue to go ahead and take that new job. It's hard to imagine Peggy won't be out looking now, and honestly with a response like that, you'd kind of have to. I know he's tired and stressed, but honest to god Don, for a guy whose livelihood depends on empathy, sometimes you are really dense with people.
(I hope she doesn't follow Duck because you just know that will end in tears. Of course, I suppose could just as easily work out that Peggy lands at Grey and they appreciate her talents there, even while Duck flames out once again.)
Sex & the Single Girl comes out in '63. Helen Gurley Brown really recommended job hopping to move up. No one boss would ever reward a woman appropriately. She'd always get stuck.
#412 falafel
thanks! i definitely agree that MM is not an “afterschool special” complete with stated lessons at the end of each episode. although there are issues of race, gender, class, and sexuality rife within the show, those are the very same issues present at any relevant drama. this show presents it in a realistic and unabashed manner (for cable tv, at least).
i’m not necessarily calling for more prominent black characters (although, they would be welcome of course) but i think that it is interesting how the show can address racial issues with very little input from racial minorities. i’m still debating whether it is an asset to the show or a hindrance.
Sorry, guys. I’m entering the threat a bit late. I just watched the episode. Maybe it’s already been discussed — but the segment at the end between Peggy and Don and then Pete and the boys really struck me. Pete is man, and although he has a swell idea that should be considered….he gets a flogging for it by Cooper-Sterling…but he will always have a defender…this time in the form of Layne…who gives Pete’s idea of marketing Admirals among the “negro” population credence with his “it’s not wrong to pursue this…” In Peggy’s dialogue with Don…her mentor…she asks him for equal pay…she can’t even get him to say, “It’s a bad time…but I’ll look into it.” He says is “it’s not going to happen” and that’s that. Fascinating juxtaposition. Peggy’s the only woman in the board-room, who’s not there to take the notes, but she’s out in the cold. I won’t blame her if she leaves . Really cool episode.
Great episode (in a great season of a great show…)!
The quick shot of Sally smearing blood on her face was quite interesting, not something typical Mad Men does (or has done) but visually and emotionaly powerful, in my opinion.
With this, Betty’s dream sequences, Don’s birth in Out of Town and the music and dance scenes in My Old Kentucky Home, I can really see the series branching out in even “stranger” types of storytelling. I’d love to see an episode in which Don has a dream that takes up 30+ out of the 47 minutes. Yes, The Sopranos has done it before, but there’ve been many elements of that series that Mad Men has played with and, in my opinion, made something even better with it.
I really liked the contrast of the scene between Don and Sally (showing us how awesome and warm Don can be) and the scene between Don and Peggy just a few minutes later (showing us Don’s cold side).
Did anyone else think the dialogue between Sally and Don – “Are you looking for a chick?” – “I am” – was a nudge towards viewers, foreshadowing that Don is looking for another kind of chick, namely Sally’s teacher?
i think that it is interesting how the show can address racial issues with very little input from racial minorities. i’m still debating whether it is an asset to the show or a hindrance.
I know what you mean! I debate it too. But my current feeling is that the show is called – ‘Mad Men’. The focus on the show is white American businessmen and their society. In their world, women are stuck in the roles of secretaries, housewives and mistresses, gays are in the closet and ethnic minorities are on the fringes in quiet servile jobs. But we know that the sexual revolution and the civil rights movement is coming. The world of the Mad Men is going to be shifted and overturned whether they like it or not.
The ‘twilight sleep’ terminology of the labor/delivery really intrigued me. So much so that I called my mother and quizzed her about a few things.
I was born in December of 1969 in the Midwest, and at that point, mothers were given the choice of the drug that induced the ‘twilight sleep’ type of labor, or to be awake with a local anethetic. My mom was somewhat undecided, but her OB/GYN was apparently of the ‘old school’ guard and let her know that, in no uncertain terms, he was not a fan of the mother being awake.
Of course, she remembers nothing of the birth itself, and said it was very true-to-form when we saw the scene of Betty waking up with a baby in her arms. ‘Course, my mom says she smiled at me, nodded, and handed me back to the nurse and asked to go back to sleep. lol
Having the father in the delivery room was strictly verboten also, even though it was almost 1970. My dad was apparently in a room similar to Don/Dennis.
Did anyone on here have a baby during this time? This really intrigues me.
Oh and count me in the ‘dialogue with Dennis’ being a dream for Don, also. I’ve rewatched it several times and I can’t believe how I missed it the first time. It seems obvious to me now. YMMV.
I can’t speak to how similar Mad Men having conversations be imaginary would be to House, as I haven’t watched House for a few seasons (right after the storyline that originally brought Anne Dudek and Kal Penn in), but I can say unequivocally that, if these conversations Don’s having are imaginary, they are in no way ripping off of Rescue Me (probably my second favorite show, after Mad Men).
Rescue Me, and before it Six Feet Under, used conversations with dead family members and others as a way of vocalizing the character’s inner dialogue. Even when the deceased that came through the Fisher’s funeral home in Six Feet Under, their existence in that world was established prior to the characters having ‘conversations’ with them.
But in Mad Men, if these people are in fact not real, then they are complete and utter figments of Don’s imagination.
I personally think these conversations are real. Mad Men has never really shown any signs of surreal inclinations, whereas Six Feet Under was often a vehicle for the characters’ fantasies, and the ‘Tommy talking to dead people’ thing in Rescue Me has been an established device in that show since the beginning.
**I’m just not sure what purpose it would serve for it to be a dream, rather than something real that happened.**
My reaction when watching it, and I remember others saying it, was that the dialogue was a little on the nose for what the show usually does. (Rich and Michael even mention in the Kevin Pollak interview how MW avoids that.) Almost everything the guard said kinda hit you over the head with its relevance to Don. Initially, I just took the oddness of it as them being drunk, and I’m still not saying that’s not it, but a dream sorta fits, too.
I suppose the purpose would be to make the dialogue hyper-real, but unless a lot of smart people were obtuse all of a sudden it was not made obvious it was a dream. This means that either it wasn’t a dream or will possibly be confirmed as one later.
Maybe the dream happens decades in the future and is caused by an Oz marathon followed by an episode of The Simpsons.
Interesting back-and-forth on the race question. Since the story is obviously told mostly from the perspective of the priveleged white males who are oblivious at best, MW has the characters basically look foolish through their own words and deeds. The few black characters in the show, while in relatively powerless positions, are actually quite wise when compared to the whites they are “serving”.
– Carla rolls her eyes and smacks down Gene’s nonsense, while being the only one who actually does real work taking care of the kids and the house.
– Hollis is very patient with Pete’s ham-fisted elevator market research.
– Viola is a beacon of comfort and wisdom for Betty.
– Kinsey’s ex-girlfriend seemed truly enlightened and intelligent, unlike Paul himself, who’s “enlightenment” seems ripped straight from the Princeton dinner club manual. Noblesse oblige and all.
The collective effect is to make the whites look like fools in their dealings with blacks. And I haven’t even mentioned Roger’s blackface routine, which takes the idiocy to a whole new level.
I’m not enough of a student of the civil rights movement to know for sure, but perhaps these characters are drawn in the vein of Martin Luther King, whose brilliant oratory was matched only by how stupid the whites who fought him looked in contrast. Soon, of course, his voice was joined by different ones from the likes of Malcolm X and Stokely Carmichael. Maybe we will see black characters with those types of voices as the show progresses, but for now it is fascinating to watch the elite whites crap all over themselves without realizing it.
Hope that made sense.
Forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere and I missed it, but I've watched the episode three times, and each time in the classroom scene where Betty tells Miss Farrell that her father died, and Miss Farrell reaches out to Betty with a sympathetic touch, it appears that Betty recoils from Miss Farrell, ever so slightly. Did anyone else notice this? And if so, what do you suppose it means? Just discomfort at being touched by someone you don't really especially when you are heavily pregnant and not feeling all that great to start with? Or something else? I recall that in Episode 3, Betty was quite willing to have a total stranger touch her stomach.
**I’m not enough of a student of the civil rights movement to know for sure, but perhaps these characters are drawn in the vein of Martin Luther King, whose brilliant oratory was matched only by how stupid the whites who fought him looked in contrast.**
Ahem, and there are no modern parallels to this. That’s my official story — that your comment reminded me of nothing going on today.
I love this site; I lurk frequently, and post occasionally.
I am an African American female (Sally’s age), and a MM fan since the beginning. I am enjoying the portrayal of black people in the show-the characterizations are subtle and “on pointâ€. I laughed out loud when Carla said “We don’t all know one another Mr. Hofstadt!â€. At my mostly white college (in the ‘70’s), I remember having to explain (on a number of occasions) that just because many of the black students hailed from the same city that we did not, in fact, know one another prior to entrance. I also had to deal with, “sorry, I thought you were so-and-so†because we all looked alike (not!).
The Sam, Carla, Hollis, Viola, roles are in the background because I imagine that’s how it was in 1963 in “Sterling Cooper/Draper†land. I can’t wait to see how the rest of the season unfolds, given the uptick in the Civil Rights struggle in 1963.
I have to say that I marvel at the commentary and analysis on this site. It’s fabulous!
Helen – Betty is an ice queen, and I think the reason she let the man touch her stomach is because, well, he was a MAN and he was fawning over her, despite her 'condition'.
I'm probably oversimplifying, but I can't imagine Betty would be receptive to anyone making a friendly overture like that. Unless, of course, they're an attractive male and she can play coy with him.
I think Betty recoils from the teacher because she isn't sure what the teacher was going to do. The man who touched her stomach at the party asked her if it was all right to do so.
I think the "friendly overture" from the teacher would have made me recoil too. It isn't something I would expect a stranger to do.
Don in the grey suit and the grey-tone tie like a b&w test pattern — walking towarsd obsolescence, kept reaching for his hat.
#421 Andrew: I agree, Mad Men really isn't the vehicle for surrealism. It worked for Betty this week because she was under some powerful drugs. (When someone drops LSD on the show, if they want to go there that's fine.) For me the hallmark of the series is its (and Wiener's) steadfast adherence to realism. For that reason I didn't care for Don's birth fantasy sequence in the premiere; it seemed too overtly stage-y and felt off to me, especially when a simple flashback would have conveyed the same information.
Also, the whole idea of this-is-an-unreliable-narrative/everything-you-know-is-a-lie! just seems played out and cliched to me. It's been around at least since St. Elsewhere. To me it's almost as overdone as my-antagonist-is-secretly-my-father. I don't need left-field gimmicks; I just want well-told stories and strong characterization.
If, for some crazy reason, Wiener wanted to take it there, I'm sure he'd do it differently (in degree) from House or any other series that did it. But I hope he doesn't want to; I certainly don't think he *needs* to to create compelling TV.
Andrew: p.s. In House, he's having conversations with Dead Amber and Dead Kutner, but they're just avatars for his own fractured psyche. Basically, the scientific explanation is that he's having a psychotic break, probably caused by his drug abuse. But he's also dealing with something of an existential crisis in his own solitary way–by becoming his own patient, in a sense.
I hope the above isn't considered spoilers, because, you know, last season. But if it is feel free to delete the post.
It's so telling and revealing how Bert and Roger don't take to what Lane is saying about tapping into the African American market.
Indeed, as Nat King Cole once said, "Madison Avenue, is afraid of the dark."