Aug 312009
Don said Roger doesn’t look happy, he looks foolish. He didn’t suggest that Roger isn’t happy, he was only focused on appearances.
Don almost ran away with the woman he loved in Season 1. Now granted, Rachel is a more appropriate match in terms of age and intelligence. But Don wanted to abandon his wife for her, just as Roger abandoned Mona. The difference is that Don would have disappeared; probably even changed his name again, whereas Roger is standing up and doing it in front of people. That’s what’s foolish to Don.
94 Responses to “"You look foolish"”
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I disagree: Roger looks foolish not because he's happy, but because he's combining what would be considered inappropriate racism (during the Civil Rights era) — at least to Don, (and no doubt Paul Kinsey, if he were there) with
a wildly inappropriate age-difference trophy wife.
Blackface was on the way out as appropriate even in white-only country clubs by 1963, Roger is a middle-aged man still reveling in the old priviledge.
And insisting on the adoring gush of his inappropriate trophy wife and public displays of affection through that sickening performance.
Even Burt Cooper warned the (decade and more) older Joan away from the age-inappropriate Roger.
The discussion about the Rockefeller divorce and marriage is no accident, divorce was still somewhat shameful, a "failure" — and was widely believed to be one of the reasons Stevenson lost to Eisenhower and scotched Rockefellers' political aspirations, as well, no matter his wealth or public service.
I'd bet Jane is a pariah among the other women at that country club, especially the middle-aged wives who see her as a threat to their own marriages, as a symbol of what their husbands might want to get away with, too.
I don't think we disagree. My point is (and perhaps I made it poorly) that Roger looks foolish because he abandoned his wife publicly. Don was okay with doing it secretly.
I agree with Deb. The point is driven home with the loooooong shot of Don & Betty embracing. Sure, they look lovely from far away, but we know all isn't rosy.
Also, remember how Don sympathized with Gloria for leaving Gene? He doesn't really mind a partner switch up (how could he?), he just doesn't think you should throw it in people's faces or be public about it.
He does look foolish, but that's not the kind of thing you say to your boss and your host at a social event. Perhaps Don simply doesn't care, since he has $500k in the bank and the ability to walk out of SC at any time.
I do wonder what the repercussions of that conversation might be.
Roberta, you are so logical. I love it! I totally agree with your assessment of Don's statements.
And by Roberta I mean Deborah. Sorry about that.
think that what Don recognizes is Roger's desperation, which Roger has mistaken for love. Roger and Jane are not actually a love match, it's a transaction that is very clear to everyone on the outside. And I think Don still resents having his words used as a justification by Roger to Mona. Roger used Don as cover when leaving Mona, which was extremely childish. Roger seems to be regressing quite a bit.
Don had the ability to say what he did to Roger as the Brits control SC. He addressed Roger very honestly there, after trying to politely side step the whole thing. Roger goaded him into a real response.
Don had been brutally honest with Roger in the previous episode too, implying that he sits around and does nothing all day.
Don seemed jealous and petty to me in his exchange with Roger, like Roger got to be happy and he didn't; he also seems to be holding a massive grudge for far too long. Matt says on the AMC videos for this episode that in the end, he imagines Don and Betty fantasizing about kissing other people in that moment. That surprised me to hear him say that…
It amazes me how Don never has any qualms about setting people straight on what is the right thing to do, how they should act, what they should say. Because he is such a standup guy.
In 1960 my father was sent for the summer to work on the space race at an air force base in Tennessee.
And I was a ten year old child horrified by the naked prejudice in comparason to New Jersey—not only the “Colored†and “White†bathrooms and water fountains, but the actual threats.
My mother was Catholic and found a pretty, local church for us to attend, I remember her complimenting one of the local congregation on the building, but that woman’s reply frightened and horrified me, “Oh yes, we like it, and we’ve managed to keep it. All our previous churches were burned down.â€
That some strangers in the part of the country could hate me enough for my familiy’s religion that they would burn us out , perhaps burn the building down when we were there—I can still feel the horror.
So Don is also reacting to Roger’s blackface in that culture, while the battles for the Civil Rights Movement were being fought hand-to-hand.
Great point Deborah. Although – given his wanting to run off with Rachel, disappearing from Betty for weeks, and then being seperated from Betty – you would think he wouldn't be so judgemental.
As Rachel pointed out – running off again is not really an option now that Sally and Bobby are in his life.
I wonder what this means for their relationship going forward. Roger did say that he gets to "invite" who he wants to his own party. I wonder if he'll stop inviting Don. It reminded me of when Burt Cooper got Don on the museum board and told Don he'd been invited to the party (I think that was the line!). Can Don be uninvited? Would Don even care?
And also, Don didn't go through with it. He thought it through, like Rachel told him to, and realized leaving Betty was the wrong thing to do.
Roger was too quick in leaving Mona for Jane and perhaps he's starting to realize what a mistake it really was (destroying what little relationship he had with his daughter, and Jane is starting to seem unstable, to say the least).
Plus, like LAbaby pointed out, I'm betting there's still a lot of resentment between them because of Roger's excuse for leaving Mona. I think that permanently wrecked their friendship. Don just doesn't respect Roger anymore.
Nah. Don's decision to run away with Rachel, and then his decision to stay, had nothing to do with Betty. It was all about the blackmail.
Not the first time through, but the second or third. And the first time, I sit and think, and then I write like a demon afterwards.
It was Rachel who rejected Don's offer to run away, and Don only realized he was off the hook after Burt Cooper made it clear that Don's name change made no difference — it was who Don is now that counts.
If anything wrecked his friendship with Roger, it's Roger's pass at Betty.
It echoes Jimmy Barrett's complaint, "You don't go after another man's wife."
Don didn't like the shoe on the other foot, he might have lashed out at Betty as displaced anger, but Don enjoyed Roger's oyster rainbow.
Since the sale to the British, Don now has "walking away money" — he can afford to be attack Roger outright now.
I agree with Deborah's general point that Don is focused on how things "look" here, but that in no way excludes the fact that we are talking about Roger dumping his wife of many years for a very young woman. Had Don left Betty and his children for Rachel (even if he had sent money), there are many invectives that would rank higher on my list than "foolish," even if Don had done so in NYC. Roger looks foolish in part because his choice is seen as based on superficiality, whereas Don choosing Rachel would have been seen as more substantial (however wrong that choice might have been otherwise).
Over at NJ.com, Alan Sepinwall on a fascinating connection to current politics:
"'63 Kentucky Derby took place on the same day that New York Governor Nelson Rockefeller married his second wife, Happy… (only a month after Happy's own first marriage came to a legal end) was a major turn-off to many Republican voters. It not only damaged Rockefeller's own national ambitions (though he'd wind up as Gerald Ford's appointed VP), but arguably was the beginning of the end for the national dominance of the more socially moderate wing of the Republican party, since the marriage to Happy led to Barry Goldwater getting the '64 nomination, which led to Ronald Reagan's ascension, etc, etc….Roger is a classic Rockefeller Republican, and the ascension of people like Goldwater will likely create yet another part of his life where he's going to be left behind http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009…
Perhaps Roger had done a foolish thing. But had he really? Would it have been better for hiim that he had remained in a marriage that did not satisfy him? Who is really being foolish? Roger, because he decided to seek happiness with a younger woman? Or Don, because he has decided to remain in a marriage that he really does not find satisfying?
Nah. Don’s decision to run away with Rachel, and then his decision to stay, had nothing to do with Betty. It was all about the blackmail.
And it also had to do with the fact that Rachel had rejected him in the end, because he wanted to abandon his family. However, I must admit that I found her attitude a little . . . hypocritical, considering that she was willing to have an affair with a married man.
Not a hypocrite, but a realistically moral woman.
For a man to abandon his children, she found morally repugnant, not just a wife, but his blood — good for her.
But Don was also asking her to abandon her own life, a life she'd painfully pieced together, fighting to run and reawaken her father's store.
It's how they answer questions like those — shall I run away, and abandon myself for the man I love (especially, if he can abandon his children, so easily) — that will mark the Second Wave Feminists.
Don's self-loathing will not allow him to actually fall in love with anyone. He may not even be able to imagine it anymore. Even his panicky proposal to Rachel was not about her, as Deb says, but about what Pete knew. I agree, he's jealous and lashing out at Roger.
Still, Roger has violated the Don Draper Rule of Total Anonymity and Social Pretense so yeah, there's that as well. Plus, now Betty knows that Roger & Jane knew. It's not so different for her from Jimmy Barrett knowing, and I expect that there will be a big fight about it at some point, pretty kisses in the moonlight notwithstanding.
Don actually told Betty that; that Sally had called the office, so that they knew at the office he hadn't been home. It was it being publicly remarked upon that was so awful. If they'd known and been discreetly quiet, it would have been okay.
If Roger had left his wife for Joan, that would have appeared less foolish to everyone (including his daughter.)
Joan is substantial: fleshy and intelligent, aged like fine wine and accomplished.
Whereas Jane is merely manipulative and callow, and on her way to becoming a wraith.
Roger is not Don's boss anymore. He has no real power at S-C now. Therefore, Don has no reason, on any level, to kiss his ass. He could go anywhere he wants to, even open his own agency if so inclined, if Roger made any trouble for him. (And note that none of the British higher-ups were at Roger's soiree, either. Were they even invited? And if not, did they know about it?)
Don's probably been majorly irked at Roger since Mona charged into his office to say it was his fault that Roger dumped her for Jane. Don has a code — do what you want but keep quiet about it, and don't expect other people to enjoy the sight of it if you don't — and Roger violated that in Technicolor. Note that Don had no intention of ever living with Rachel under Betty's nose.
If Roger had left his wife for Joan, that would have appeared less foolish to everyone (including his daughter.)
Joan is substantial: fleshy and intelligent, aged like fine wine and accomplished.
Whereas Jane is merely manipulative and callow, and on her way to becoming a wraith.
Joan can be just as manipulative as Jane. They' re very similar in many ways. It's just that Joan is more experienced in the world. Yet . . . Jane was not the one who ended up marrying some guy who had raped her at her workplace. For that act alone – marrying Greg – I cannot help but feel some kind of contempt toward Joan for doing something that stupid and desperate.
If Roger had left Mona for Joan, then it would be Joan facing the contempt and bigotry that Jane is now experiencing. Joan may be older than Jane by a decade, but she is probably almost two decades younger than Roger.
@23 Donny Brook:
I think you can count on that big fight. If there's one thing Don and Betty can't stand it's having their cover blown. (FWIW, if I were Betty, this is one time where I'd actually find myself in sync with her and be pissed off, too.)
As I said in an earlier post, the way those pretty kisses in the moonlight were shot, long shot, in gauzy soft focus, indicates there's a large quotient of unreality going on.
Remember, when Betty took Don back in, it was complicated by her pregnancy. Don never really got the chance to truly woo her back and win her over the way he would have if she hadn't been pregnant. In large part I think he's being welcomed back as a provider. And even thought he is back, you can see Betty, if anything, is even bitchier and meaner to the kids.
So even though I think Don's really trying his best (in his own fashion) to see all this through, things are not really healed and Jane's drunken outburst only underlines it.
Don has a code — do what you want but keep quiet about it, and don’t expect other people to enjoy the sight of it if you don’t — and Roger violated that in Technicolor. Note that Don had no intention of ever living with Rachel under Betty’s nose.
Did Don really expect Roger to live up to his expectations?
#24 I don't see a whole lot of diffeence between Jane & Joan, frankly, other than their ages. Joan can be seen as equally manipulative and certainly callow and mean. In fact, when Jane manipulated Roger to get her job back, Joan knew exactly how she did it. Jane succeeded where Joan failed mostly due simply to timing. While Roger was with Joan, his daughter was still dependent on him and he had no reason to rock the boat by leaving Mona. He could have the best of both worlds. But when Jane came along, Roger had been spooked by a heart attack, his daughter was getting married, and suddenly it seems ok for him to move on.
#29 Oh and lets not forget that giant check Roger was getting for selling the firm.
Did Don really expect Roger to live up to his expectations?
Don expects everyone to live up to his expectations, even random dudes in the elevator who don't take their hats off with a lady present.
Roger has had many times to play the fool throughout the series. Roger's follies stem from his rivalry with Don that goes all way back to "Red in the Face" in S1, and it's about more women/wives. It's a contest about who is younger and thus more relevant to Sterling Cooper and the 60s Mad Men world.
Roger wishes he had a younger, more beautiful wife like Betty so he selfishly and rudely invites himself to the Draper's private family dinner and makes a pass at Betty. Don gets back at Roger with, according to Matthew Weiner, the only thing he (Don) has over him: his youth. Don manages to easily move forward up the stairs while Roger lags behind from the oysters and alcohol. I think Roger was trying to prove his youthfulness with his frat-house debauchery Labor Day weekend with Mirabelle…and needed Don there to save his life. Don becomes a partner at SC, further eroding Roger’s importance to the company.
Season 2, you think Roger learned his lesson but he's worse and more desperate than ever. He’s so old, boring and irrelevant that can't get even get a call girl like Vicki to hang out with him until he shells out tons of dough. Vicki’s pretending to be the Gorten client’s wife might have inspired him to eventually marry Jane. When he figures out Don is having marital problems too and figures he can one-up Don by “moving forward†and getting a younger wife. Actually, I think Roger is acting very youthful (aka childish) by telling Mona it was all Don’s moving forward idea.
Now that he’s sold the company to the Brits, he’s no longer a partner and no longer “in†on things. He can’t remember the purpose of the Bert Peterson meeting. Pete comes in to see Don and immediately stops talking when he realizes Roger is there. Lane Pryce approaches Don to go to lunch with the MSG guy even though Roger is the “lion tamer†but it’s clear at the lunch that Don gets the job done. As he tells Peggy, he’s dead to his daughter and this time even shelling out money for the wedding doesn’t help. He figured that by marrying the much younger Jane, he could finally beat Don in their space race, but it completely backfires. It comes full circle now as Jane is practically groping Don. Even his child bride finds Don more attractive. Roger does his best to justify the situation, but Don sticks it to him by telling him the awful truth: You’re neither young or relevant; you're just a fool with a drunk wife.
@ Rosie–
Yes, Joan is manipulative, but she does it with charm and class, which makes all the difference. To me, one of the best parts of MM is in fact that the characters are so fully developed and have an equal mix of strengths and weaknesses. And yes, Matt Weiner has said in interviews that Jane really in fact is just a baby Joan. However, Joan's had years of experience both in the workplace and socially–and it shows. If she had married Roger–and give her credit, she was smart enough not to–I, too, think it would have been a lot better received because she would have had the smarts not to flaunt it. And as I've said earlier, just viscerally she and Roger are a much better fit, I've never thought that about Jane and Roger.
While I feel it was indeed a serious mistake to marry Dr. Greg, rather than contempt, I feel pity. It's always so easy to make socio-political judgments on people's behavior, when we're all, "human, all too human." Hindsight is a beautiful thing; you have to remember that circa 1960-63 to not be married by age 32 was considered odd and you were considered an "old maid." So it's no wonder to me Joan felt "desperate." Peggy notwithstanding, it is never easy to be a pioneer (and despite her pot-induced confidence, she's still going to have a rocky road in front of her). Nor can you easily divorce yourself from the mores of your era. They inevitably color your behavior. So please, give Joan credit for making at least one huge correct decision–not marrying Roger–and let up on her for having made what we can see in hindsight was a poor choice. Both she–and the era she lives in–need to get in sync.
Roger DOES look foolish. Not just because he left his wife for another woman, but because he left his wife for a vapid young woman he had barely just met; a silly, childish girl in his own employ, for whom nobody had any respect. Even if Don didn't know for certain all the particulars of how Jane got her job back, he's smart enough to have put two and two together. Even though we as the audience knew Roger was tired of his marriage, a LOT of us were surprised to find out that Jane was the co-respondent.
And then Roger compounds his foolish image by expecting everyone -including his daughter – to treat him and Jane like conventional newlyweds and being all shocked when they hesitate.
Yea, I don't think that Betty was angry because Jane knew, I think she was angry that Jane was blurting it out for all the world to hear. This silly, drunken girl became, in that moment, a symbol for the foolish, disrespectful things that men like Roger and Don do their wives. Some of the pain and humiliation of the Bobby Barrett affair was briefly resurrected. Here's Betty, one more time, feeling publicly disgraced. No wonder she was ticked.
Deb, all he said was Sally called the office. He didn't mention that he wasn't in the office when she called. There was no reason for Betty to assume that meant Jane knew anything.
@#34
Thanks for putting into words so eloquently the thoughts I've had on the whole issue.
It's bad enough that he left his wife for a young, vapid idiot who is his daugthers age. Alot of people could accept that, but (in classic Roger narcissism) he expects people to CELEBRATE his decision, and flaunts it around, and attempts to blame others for HIS bad choices. The fact that he blames Mona for his affair and subsequent marriage to a vacuous, manipulative BRAT makes Roger all the more repellent to me.
He used to be merely charmingly self-absorbed. Now I can't stand the sight of him.
Although I do have to give kudos to Slattery for ROCKING this role. He's a great actor.
# 29 Donny Brook – I think Jane also became Joan Jr. to Roger, as Joan had moved on with her life and had gotten engaged to the Dr. at that point. I think Roger was feeling that a little.
I believe I read a Weiner interview (sorry no link) where he mentioned that Don is mad at Roger because the divorce necessitated the sale of Sterling Cooper. The "foolish" comment can also be about that.
It was an interesting comment.
In the moment, I think Don was tense about Jane's comment to Betty and lost his cool when Roger pressed him about the state of their friendship. I think when Jane blurted out that she "knew Don and Betty would get back together", it brought up the memory that Jane shared he and Betty's troubles with Roger (before Don was aware of their relationship). I'm sure Don has not forgotten that Roger told Mona that Don's words convinced him to leave her. There may be strain related to the firing of Freddy Rumsen. There's strain over the fact that the company was sold out from under Don when he was in California (though this was ultimately Don's fault). There's certainly a feeling that Don feels that Roger has been handed things and Don has had to make his own way. Strain because Roger threw his family away and started anew without embarrassment and Don has been struggling with what to do with his own marriage.
I think it appears to Don that Roger doesn't have to struggle the way he does and he resents it.
One of the things I love about MM is the way that the characters are developed by their brief sometimes seemingly small verbal interactions with one another. The encounter between Roger and Don does just that and Deborah is exactly on target – Don cares about appearances and in this case Roger does not.
Glad Mad sums it up nicely. Don is jealous – not of Roger’s happiness but his indifference. Don’s core struggle is how to actually be alive in the life and family that he has so carefully built (truly a self made man) while Roger was born to a family, a name a reputation and is perfectly willing to throw it all away. Don is the ant to Roger’s shore-leave grasshopper – he wishes he didn’t care but he does.
After Don and Roger's exchange, when Don is looking for Betty- her coat draped over his arm, did anyone else wonder what Don was going to stumble upon? I thought for a moment he might find Betty in the arms of the Tummy Toucher.
"Yes, Joan is manipulative, but she does it with charm and class, which makes all the difference. To me, one of the best parts of MM is in fact that the characters are so fully developed and have an equal mix of strengths and weaknesses. And yes, Matt Weiner has said in interviews that Jane really in fact is just a baby Joan. However, Joan’s had years of experience both in the workplace and socially–and it shows. If she had married Roger–and give her credit, she was smart enough not to–I, too, think it would have been a lot better received because she would have had the smarts not to flaunt it. And as I’ve said earlier, just viscerally she and Roger are a much better fit, I’ve never thought that about Jane and Roger."
To be honest, if Joan had ended up with Roger, I still would not have been impressed. I don't care how better received or not she would have been. When you think about it, what is the point in arguing over who is better for Roger – Joan or Jane? Is this to prove that Joan is superior to Jane? I don't think so. Nor do I believe that Jane is superior, either. One is simply more older and experienced. Both women would have been better off without Roger. And both women ended up making some pretty bad choices when it came to marriage. In fact, they simply joined Betty's club, in that regard. I guess I just find the whole rivalry rather irrevelant.
Don and Betty are very concerned with their image and how they present themselves to the world.
Betty was disgusted with Don and finished with Jane the instant she let loose that she “…knew they would get back together.”
As long as YodaBurt is around, Roger has a protector. He promised his father he would look after him. Don has no protector, nor would he want one. But he has.built some protections, one being his talent, another beimng the support of Yoda and Roger. Now he sees Roger becoming irrelevant and he will have to find some kind of alternative. That has to concern him.
I think when Jane blurted out that she “knew Don and Betty would get back togetherâ€, it brought up the memory that Jane shared he and Betty’s troubles with Roger (before Don was aware of their relationship).
Wait a minute. Didn't Don tell Roger about his marital problems, last season? What was that whole schtick he had said about not being in a hurry to resume his marriage?
I think another reason for Roger's attraction to Jane has to do with the rejection he receives from his daughter, Margaret. It is as though he is out to capture the heart of a beautiful young girl so he can prove to his daughter that he is lovable and worthy of admiration since she clearly dismisses him. He yearns for her love and approval and since he can't get it from her he uses Jane's affection as a subsitute for the love he needs to feel from Margaret.
In season 2 I seem to remember that he talks to Jane and ponders why his own daughter is so unhappy. It is as though he is trying to figure his daughter out through Jane and Peggy.
This is off topic, but I'm disappointed that The Weiner has not followed through or brought closure to some of the most intriguing sub plots of the show. What did Betty do when she took Don back, what has become of Peggy and Pete's baby, what was Pete's reaction to the news that he is a father, what happened to Peggy's priest and did he and Peggy have intimate feelings for one another, etc…etc…. I'm not satisfied with all the loose ends.
#46 Rosie – I don't believe Don ever explicitly told Roger about his marital problems. Roger guessed because Don hadn't been home and like someone said above, he was already seeing Jane, so she probably spilled the beans during pillow talk.
Jane also looks like a fool and not just when she's drunk. At the office, she rubs her new wealth and status in Joan's face, talking about real estate: "I get a nosebleed anywhere above 86th street." This parallels Dorothy Dyckman Campbell's comment "They fall off after 86th" when Pete is house hunting in "New Amsterdam." They're essentially saying the same thing, but Dorothy, the true New York Society doyenne she is (she'd be similar in age to Brooke Astor or Betsey Whitney), puts it so elegantly. When the wannabe Jane says it, it comes out crude, like Roger's serenade, which she enjoys so much.
Wow I feel so inept on this site, I believe in so much what is right that I forget what what is and needs to be,,,I like Don and Roger and Jane are quite indiferrent you people,,,we wish all to bdddddddd
It makes me think about when Roger had his heart attack and Don smacked him and reminded him of his wife's name. At the time I took this very much as protecting Mona, not Roger.
I think Don sees very clearly that the happiness Roger has is shallow and worthless. Roger probably would have been thrilled to go travel with Joy if he'd been in Don's shoes but Don's not such a simple guy. I think for Don it's just hard to grow apart from a friend and lose what's left of your respect. Even though Don is not completely lying in the bed he's made he does use dignity to protect himself and his family and people around him. I think it's his best quality and the way he cares for people. Like last week with Gene.
Elaine, I agree. For all his failings, when it comes down to it Don does have a moral code. I am not sure that Roger does. I keep thinking back to the Mohawk Airlines episode where Roger let Don know that he did not prize loyalty, he sa it as a handicap. At his core Don is very loyal. He may be sexually and romantically (Rachel) disloyal, but he doesn't really seek to hurt and humiliate Betty (though he does just that). It's just a pressure valve with him. Roger is more the scorched earth type. Roger sees Mona as an obstacle, where Don sees the collateral damage (albeit sometimes too late)
As the series goes on, I am disliking Roger more and more as he reveals himself . Charm wears thin when there is nothing behind it.
# 48 Terri – I am very much the opposite. Real life never gives one complete answers, and we never really know what is going until years later. I find the treatment of the storyline realistic. After all, who knows what is in anyones hear? So much of life is private and hidden. I like the unknowingness of this little world. We see what they let us be privy to.
Life is loose ends. Some of the blanks are easy enough to fill in. Especially in the case of Peggy's child. He was adopted and is basically gone forever. That is how adoption worked then.
Don's scene with Roger near the end of the episode is certainly parallel to Joan vs Jane at the start — with Don voicing what Joan didn't say: "they think you're foolish." We're hearing Don's inner voice. Jane outed him to Betty with her "I knew you'd get back together comment" and Don thinks others can see through him. He doesn't belong at the country club. "They think you're foolish."
If Joan sees Jane as a ridiculous figure then, on some level, she must sense that she looked equally foolish as Roger's previous pet. Jane is a "college girl" who is now using class weapons unavailable to Joan's toolbox. How this influences Joan's ideas about being married is, of course, unknown. But Mrs. Chief of Surgery has added some perspective to the life of a doctor's wife.
I get the sense Joan's childhood was as troubled as Don's. Neither one had much mothering, I suspect. While Don was parking cars, Joan was … what … playing bar mitzvahs? To us, there's no shame in that. But shame is one of the things motivating Don and, I believe, Joan.
Like you, Phil, I wonder if Joan feels some shame about her past. I am reminded of the pilot when Joan advised a brand-new Peggy that if she made "all the right moves" she'd eventually be out in the country and not working at all. Years later Peggy's got a door, and though Joan is married, she is definitely not living the life she envisioned for herself. Married to Dr. Rapist (who is apparently not as professionally accomplished as he would have us believe) and still in a small city apartment, Joan is forced to confront an alternative version of her life when she encounters Mrs. Sterling 2.0. Does Joan believe she's made "all the right moves"?
Really? I thought Don's point is that a.) a man Roger's age looks like a moon struck adolescent chasing after lost youth b.) Jane is a golddigger and everyone at Sterling-Cooper knows it and c.) you should never get involved with anyone you work with everyday because it looks like you don't take your job seriously. Oh, sure, Jane doesn't have to work now but we all know that Roger treats his office like a playground. It won't be long until he finds a new target.
One thing you can say for Don is that he keeps his professional life separate from his escapades. Yes, he slept with Rachel and Bobbi but they weren't his co-workers.
Part of Don's anger with Roger might also be due to the fact that Don forces himself to reconcile with Betty because he realizes he values his family even if he doesn't quite get what's going on between himself and his wife. So, Don's in an uncomfortable relationship, trying to work it out, while Roger, having no sense of self-control, is dancing with a new young wife who is old enough to be his daughter.
Lots of stuff going on here.
Love what happened to Betty at the party. But until she starts acting like an adult, instead of someone who needs to constantly defer to a man, any of her relationships will be disasters. She needs to be a Rachel. Or a Midge. Or a Bobbi. Or a Peggy.
Do we know if Jane is Jewish? Her last name (Siegel, Siegle?) might indicate something. If so, that's another 'thorn' to the members of the 'jet set' at the country club – not just the divorce and marriage, but perhaps to a non-WASP? I wonder if this will create issues in future 'episodes'…
Jane is certainly nothing like Rachel Menken.
Judy, it was never mentioned one way or the other, but Roger has made anti-Semitic remarks on more than one occasion, so it seems unlikely.
It's a tribute to John Slattery's mad skillz that he can make Roger so fascinating to watch even when I hate what he's doing.
I may not have approved if Roger had left Mona for Joan instead of jane, but I don't think it would have been quite the same. Roger and Joan knew each other for a long time. They had more in common. I can imagine them having a conversation that goes beyong her reading schoolgirl poetry and him saying how young she makes him feel. And although she was the other woman, Joan always seemed sympathetic to Mona and Margaret, even taking their side when Roger complained about them. I can't imagine Joan going along with any plans that would make them feel worse, the way Jane is.
Elaine, I agree. For all his failings, when it comes down to it Don does have a moral code. I am not sure that Roger does. I keep thinking back to the Mohawk Airlines episode where Roger let Don know that he did not prize loyalty, he sa it as a handicap. At his core Don is very loyal.
Was Don really that loyal? He's in the advertising business, after all. And he's a fraud. Or was he unwilling to take chances, unless forced to do so?
Roger and Joan knew each other for a long time. They had more in common. I can imagine them having a conversation that goes beyong her reading schoolgirl poetry and him saying how young she makes him feel. And although she was the other woman, Joan always seemed sympathetic to Mona and Margaret, even taking their side when Roger complained about them.
But Joan would still be guilty of the very thing that many fans are now castigating Jane about. She's already guilty of having an affair with Roger in the past.
Rosie @60 —
Was Don really that loyal? He’s in the advertising business, after all…
Rosie, you've mentioned this before. And it angered me then. You frequently insult not only the characters on the show (and yes, I recognize that they are characters on a TV show, but we are here discussing them), but the opinions of many of the other Basketcases, and those of the writers.
I work in a field very closely associated with advertising. I have an advertising background, and could cross back over at any time. And you are saying that in all likelihood that makes me a liar.
You need to just stop it.
I am going to chime in here. We do not allow ad hominem attacks or insults. Basketcases can disagree all you want. Please disagree! And you can politely argue. But just as racism and sexism aren't allowed in comments, I will say that insulting entire groups of people is not okay. Oh, sure, if the entire group is "murderers," go ahead. But to continually say that "advertising people" are inherently immoral is out of line.
@ 26 (Rosie):
Yet . . . Jane was not the one who ended up marrying some guy who had raped her at her workplace. For that act alone – marrying Greg – I cannot help but feel some kind of contempt toward Joan for doing something that stupid and desperate.
This really drives me nuts. Yes, through the lens of 2009, most people (though by NO means all) can see that Greg's actions in the office bordered on rape–but this was 1962, people. Spousal/date rape was not even a term. Rape was something that happened when a stranger pulled you off the street at night. Joan, in her eyes and in the eyes of that time period, was not raped. Her fiancee was just being an aggressive asshole.
Didn't we discuss this to death last season? I have a feeling there will be many reasons to dislike Greg as the season wears on–the office scene from S2 may be a prelude to mental/physical abuse to come, perhaps even causing Joan to miscarry–but let's not fault Joan for accepting something that was commonplace in 1962. For that matter, let's not fault the countless women who continue to accept it as commonplace today. It takes a lot to stand up to it.
Rosie: It is unacceptable to blame a rape victim for her rape, or a domestic abuse victim for being abused. Unacceptable.
Miss Mia: Greg's actions did not "border on rape." Greg's actions were rape.
Rosie, I think you're taking a shallow view of what it's like to be in advertising. Yes ultimately it's about "pimping products" if you want to look at it that way. But for the people involved in it, it isn't as cynical an exercise as you make it out to be. Don is absolutely right when he tells Peggy you have to make people feel something. And that "something" has to be real. You can't fake feeling. Believe it or not, it takes deep insightful thinking to understand what makes people tick, and what motivates them to do things and want things and buy things. Good advertising taps into that. Good creatives are psychologists before all else. They are not "frauds."
Don in particular seems most honest with himself when he is working on a campaign. Interesting, no?
Rosie, I get the feeling from most of your comments that you really dislike the characters on the show. I think that's too bad. I love all the characters, for the very reason that they ARE flawed, they ARE emotionally damaged. Just like most of us. I think that's what I like so much about the show- it delves into all manifestations and ramifications of that emotional damage in a way that's highly empathetic, and shows how the characters are trying to cope with their flaws. I find it fascinating, and I'm rooting for all of them to overcome what makes them so unhappy and act out so badly. Even Jane, who acted so loathesomely — by the end of this episode, I felt a little sorry for her.
I think that's one of the strengths of the show – that it can present these characters who have so much depth that even when they act abominably, and from the worst motivations, you feel something for them.
What DO you like about the show?
I have a feeling there will be many reasons to dislike Greg as the season wears on …
And there may well be reasons to like him. Like that vulnerable look he got when his "mistake" was mentioned, if that was a reason. (I'm reaching here.)
But those reasons remain inside the viewer. These people, all of them, are fictions: I bring to them my own fondness, anger, love, dislike, confusion, fear … and yes, contempt.
If I'm projecting something onto these screen figments that is bigger than — or similar to — what I feel for other people in my life, that says more about me than it says about them. Rosie, what might your feelings about Joan, Don, or Peggy say about you?
That's always where I like to start.
Anne B, your diplomacy is refreshing. It was getting heated in here! : )
Joss Whedon said/wrote the coolest thing: bring your own subtext. The creative people write the stories and make the shows, and then it goes out to the audience. Almost invariable, particularly if the product is good, fans begin to interpret based on who they are and what they need the story to be. Every time we discuss a show we do, indeed, bring our own subtext and sometimes argue it passionately, sometimes without proof.
The coolness of Joss is that he gets that bringing your own subtext is the ultimate compliment — fulfillment of his desire for people to love his work passionately enough to internalize it.
However, some theories are more credible than others. I think it's okay to hate a character with no shades of gray, perhaps what the viewer needs to project, but good writers usually aim for more nuance than that.
Ms. D, I adore listening to Matt say "I think" on the commentary tracks. "I think" this is the first discussion Don & Betty have had about this, "I think" Sal has never been with a man, etc. He allows that viewer opinions are as valuable as his own.
@ 65: Oh, sure, if the entire group is “murderers,†go ahead.
Actually, I would take offense at blanket characterizations of murderers as well. A man is not his crimes, and no crime is black and white…
…you know, just chiming in from the anti-prison-industrial complex side, here.
What about accountants?
…and back to the Roger/Don discussion. In looking at the episode again I found myself mourning a little for the probable end of their seemingly long friendship. Season 1 I used to wonder how they met. Season 2 I loved Roger's insouciant way of explaining that no, Don didn't have a contract yet. I felt he was telling the Brits, 'hey, Draper is old school, like me and we didn't need a contract, a handshake was enough'. That's a powerful thing for your boss to do for you in any era.
On the other hand, I used to always wonder how much Don really liked Roger. He seemed to just go along with whatever needy Roger wanted. Necessary for his job, which was necessary for the "Don Draper" persona/life, but what could he really like about Roger?
I loved how Don (and Pete too, it's there in the background) were the only ones I saw who were unable to hide their discomfort at the blackface. Pete and his sweet, sweet wife rocked this party without seeming like they tried too hard. The competition with Cosgrove is heating up.
Review the times the two spent together over the past 2+ seasons. They were never friends.
Judy, it was never mentioned [whether Jane is Jewish] one way or the other, but Roger has made anti-Semitic remarks on more than one occasion, so it seems unlikely.
It's possible, though, that she has a Jewish father and a gentile mother, which would make her technically "not Jewish" as far as organized Judaism is concerned. (Recognition is based on the mother's religion/ethnicity, not the father's.) It would also make it easier for her to pass for WASP, especially if she inherited more of her mother's genes than her father's.
Thus Roger would find it easy to "make an exception" for Jane, because she's Not Really One of Them. (And yes, it's very possible to be prejudiced against a certain group of people and still have intimates for whom one makes an exception. See "some of my best friends are…")
I don't think Jane is Jewish because there has been nothing indicate that. If Rachel being Jewish was such a big deal coming to SC in the 60s, we would have heard some sort of anti-Semitic remark if this show if the writers want to go for authenticity. Especially
Besides being a Jewish name, Siegel can also be a German surname originating in Bavaria.
"Review the times the two spent together over the past 2+ seasons. They were never friends."
You're right of course, friendship is not what they did. Poor Don, secrets means never having real friends. Roger probably would have been his friend (sorta)if offered a chance. I suppose I meant I liked their working relationship. I felt like Roger really believed in Don's ability to pull a fantastic campaign out of thin air and was very convincing in meetings with clients. I think in the pilot you see that sort of play both ways. Roger tries to talk up Don to the LS people, they're not really buying it but it doesn't matter, Don suddenly 'unblocks' and you see a glimmer for the first time of what makes him special in his profession. That's what I'll miss. If Don leaves and starts his own agency, who will tell the clients he's a genius at what he does? No one will ever do it as well as Roger.
#78 B.Cooper- I agree with your thoughts about viewers. I'd like to stretch out your point a bit by suggesting that not just writers but our culture encourages us to judge just about everything that's put in front of us. And the judging is almost always encouraged to be reduced to the simplest Thumbs Up/Down dichotomy; good/evil, black/white; we all know how deeply that plays in the human psyche. The entertainment industry probably exploits that because it's easy, comfortable and marketable.
But Mr. Weiner and his crew definitely like to paint with those shades of gray Ms. Darkly mentions. They don't make their characters fit the archetypes that we the viewers have become familiar with, and like you hint at, they seem to deliberately thwart those accepted TV viewer expectations. I think Anne B@#67 is right, we might see something to like about Dr. Greg, most definitely something Joan obviously likes about him.
And many a viewer will be challenged to adapt their expectations, accept the show for what it is or "change the conversation".
But don't change the channel!!
#69 – Ms. Darkly … love that sentiment, and I’m not a Whedonite.
However the issue here is how we judge these characters. One tenet of acting is not to judge your character. He may have his own motivations and background that could mitigate any good or bad act, and judgement impedes the performance.
But as viewers, especially modern television viewers, we are encouraged to judge characters. Television characters, even many of the best, are drawn so broadly that their actions are their characters, and the audience is meant to have a particular reaction. Joan Holloway is no Amanda Woodward.
On Mad Men, and in what appears to be Matthew Weiner’s signature, the audience is challenged not to judge, but to view the action and the characters in much greater context (including the viewer’s own). And as soon as you think you’ve reached a conclusion, convincing alternative evidence is presented.
So argue we must (and shall), but in the end “I think …” may be all we can say for sure.
I’d like to stretch out your point a bit by suggesting that not just writers but our culture encourages us to judge just about everything that’s put in front of us. And the judging is almost always encouraged to be reduced to the simplest Thumbs Up/Down dichotomy …
less of me, I could not agree more. There's a magazine that has this feature — "Who Wore It Best?" — where they present two actresses in similar (or the same) outfits, and poll readers on who looks best. It's a small thing, but I really don't feel like judging that.
I don't feel like a participant in ANY of these things. I don't know those people (Jon and Kate? Brad, Angelina, Jen? What the hell?), and I don't care. Those are all just shadows on the cave wall.
In my real life, I have a huge family of all ages. If any one act could elevate or condemn any person in my life to a certain type, I'd have settled on who they all are, and shelved them, long ago. But life and people are not like that.
Rosie, as for Roger and Mona's marriage being "artificial": I don't think I can agree. What I saw at the end of Season 1 looked real enough to me. A man doesn't burst into tears when a woman who means little to him walks in the door. I think Roger loved Mona, and loves her still (if he didn't, the idea of her taking a date to Margaret's wedding wouldn't bother him).
I think he got bored, needed more stimulation than his long marriage offered … or he is slowly pickling himself, to the point where a young woman's attention is what it takes to make him feel something.
I have a relative who divorced some time ago. This relative will occasionally refer to that marriage as "failed". And I'll say: wait a second. You were together for 15 years. You have two great kids. I am not seeing failure there.
I'm six years into my own first marriage, and if it lasts, great. But there was nothing artificial about my husband's first marriage: his ex is a good person, they were married for a decade, and the kids are amazing. I hope to be married to my husband for the rest of my life — but even if that doesn't happen, I hope I'd describe it as a success: he's my best friend, first editor and lover.
I don't think a marriage, any more than a life, can be measured by its end. It's what is in the middle that matters.
Anne B, I agree with you. I don't think an ended marriage = a failed one.
And as a total personal aside, Deborah and I, on our flight to LA, finally asked each other about the book The Story of a Marriage. By total coincidence we'd both just finished up a week or so earlier, and we both adored it. Thank you!
Roberta,
I'm glad you both liked it. That book is still on my top ten (and I read a lot) … more for its surprises than anything else. But what good story doesn't have those?
I’ll bet that Roger & Janes’ wedding was low key, followed by a luncheon for the select group of guests. (If Margaret really wanted Jane excluded from her wedding, she should not have attended her Dad’s.) Perhaps he saw the Derby Party as a late wedding reception–a chance to throw a great party & introduce his lovely bride to all his friends & associates. (And he should have invited the Pryces; Mrs Pryce might have enjoyed the dreadful blackface act.)
Poor Jane. In “previously on Mad Men” from the earlier episode, we saw Roger popping the question & her smiling her assent. In the actual proposal scene, she answered his question with “what?” She was not expecting a proposal & would have been glad to remain the girlfriend in the fancy hotel suite. But she accepted. Now the romantic honeymoon is over & she has to deal with a stepdaughter her age & a social milieu whose rules she does not understand. Perhaps she would have been happier to have spent the afternoon getting stoned & flirting with guys not old enough to be her dad. Roger said something about having made his bed, then having to lie in it. The same goes for Jane. (Actually, they are quite happy in That Bed–but they both have to deal with the rest of the world.)
And I’m convinced that one of Don’s biggest problems with Roger is that that he sold SC to arrange his second marriage. Don has money in the bank but work is not as much fun & a bunch of people lost their jobs. (Hey, he went in to work some of the time.)
On this show, I’ve come to appreciate some initially unlikeable characters. And to understand even the ones I continue to loathe. I do want Doctor Rapist to end up in the same gutter as Duck. (As Freddy walks by with Chauncey–saving that dog’s life was just the motivation he needed to stay off the bottle. Along with The Meetings, of course.)
I rambled on and on (and on) about this in my write-up for this week, but since this is an actual thread topic, I thought I’d add a “condensed” version here.
In “My Old Kentucky Home,†Paul and Smitty talk about getting some “mary jane.” That, I believe, is a deliberate play on “Marry Jane” and directed at Roger’s “happiness” over his new marriage (which may be real or self-delusional). I’d add that at the end, Peggy, under the influence of “mary jane” expresses a new found euphoria to Olive. Which, to me, seemed similar Roger’s elation and could end up being just as artificial (albeit personally satisfying).
Matt, the problem with that is it's established language for Paul: He referred to "Mary Jane" in ep. 1.02.
Hello Anne B – simpatico philosophers are we, I see. What is real?
A favorite quote (from Woody Allen):
"Cloquet hated reality but realized it was still the only place to get a
good steak."
Hi Roberta- nice place you got here! Thanks for the nod to the nom de plume yesterday on the other thread. I wish I was here last season to yak about the sublime perfection of that whole scene. The truth in there still echoes with me.
Yet I fully anticipate more enlightenment this season. After all, Peggy is in a very good place right now.
BTW- because I'm into the thoroughbreds and I did not see it in the episode nor have I read it anywhere yet, the winner of the 1963 Kentucky Derby was a long shot named Chateaugay. Run with that where you will.
“Really? I thought Don’s point is that a.) a man Roger’s age looks like a moon struck adolescent chasing after lost youth b.) Jane is a golddigger and everyone at Sterling-Cooper knows it.”
When did the series establish that Jane was a golddigger? We do know that Jane used Roger to keep her job in “The Gold Violin”. We discovered in “Six Months Leave” that she and Roger were having an affair. We also discovered in the same effort that after a conversation with Don, Roger decided to leave Mona for Jane. And in “The Jet Set”, we discovered that Jane likes to write love poems about Roger. By the last two episodes of Season 2, we discovered that Roger plans to marry Jane after his divorce from Mona.
But when was it established that Jane was a golddigger?
I’d add that at the end, Peggy, under the influence of “mary jane†expresses a new found euphoria to Olive. Which, to me, seemed similar Roger’s elation and could end up being just as artificial (albeit personally satisfying).
Just as his marriage to Mona proved to be artificial . . . or Don’s marriage to Betty.
I do want Doctor Rapist to end up in the same gutter as Duck.
I didn’t know that Duck was in the gutter. And quite frankly, I miss him.
or Don’s marriage to Betty.
I agree. Althought it was nice to see them have a “happy” ending for once.
— However short-lived.
it’s established language for Paul: He referred to “Mary Jane†in ep. 1.02
Hey Deb, I don’t think that precludes it from referring to Roger as well. Certainly Roger is depicted as being intoxicated by his new married life.
There’s also the pointed reference to “[Gov] Rockefeller marrying Happy” –which was his wife’s real name, but, in the context of the episode, certainly applies to Roger being “happy” (and Rockefeller threw away his Presidential hopes by that 2nd marriage) . And earlier, a radio broadcast discussed corruption with the “State Liquor Association” in the Rockefeller administration.
Furthermore, at Roger’s club, a DuPont exec in “glen plaid” from DuPont is seated next to another exec from Pan Am which ties in with Paul’s supplier (Jeffery) wearing a plaid jacket. So, I think there seems to be a subtle, yet conscious, effort to link the idea of marriage with intoxicants/narcotics.
I’m just saying
"There’s certainly a feeling that Don feels that Roger has been handed things and Don has had to make his own way."
Not super related, but: I think that problem in their friendship is clear when Don says of Kennedy and Nixon that with Kennedy, he sees a silver spoon, with Nixon, he sees himself – a self-made man. It's Nixon vs. Kennedy and Draper/Whitman vs. Sterling. Maybe it's yet another reason why Don told Cooper it doesn't seem fair. And maybe this does relate to Jane. Roger expects celebration, when all along nothing has been fair. It's not fair that Roger dances around and away from his responsiblity — what little he had (his name's on the building!) — and has a majorly overdeveloped sense of entitlement to everything: other people's wives, respect, a super young wife, approval for doing what he should know very well is tacky.
"Rosie: It is unacceptable to blame a rape victim for her rape, or a domestic abuse victim for being abused. Unacceptable. "
Deborah, you just made an assumption, based upon something I had said. I have never blamed Joan for being raped by Greg. When have I ever said that?
Gals (and guys) – I'm a Catholic (nominally) of (mostly) German heritage (from the Schwarzwald region) and am married to a NYC Jewish boy…so the Jane Siegel discussion came up in our house…it's possible she's the product of an 'interfaith' relationship and 'practices nothing'…but my daughter has been raised Jewish…with an Irish first name.
So we know ALL about the 'it-comes-from-the-mother' mantra (we don't buy it!) 
Anyway, it's just fun to 'wonder', as yes, I'm quite aware Roger has said stupid anti-Semitic things…..the show has so many layers…it's TERRIFIC!
(ps – and I'm still in awe of the accordion playing, as I play one in a Jewish band locally!)