This is a chat between Deborah Lipp and Matthew Weiner on Monday, January 19 12, 2009, the day after Mad Men won the Golden Globe award for Best Television Drama. It was before he signed the contract with Lionsgate, as you’ll see.
My experience with interviewing Matt is you maybe get one question in and then he’s off and running; full of thoughts, ideas, questions, answers, and joy. But this time he was less ebullient, a little tired after such a thrilling night. Our conversation was warm but perhaps less diverse than in the past.
You guys are not “the Internet.”
Deborah Lipp: How are you? Did you have a great night?
Matt Weiner: I am so happy, I can’t even tell you.
DL: We are pretty happy for you. And thank you so much for the mention!
MW: Why wouldn’t I? If I want to say shitty things about the Internet, I’ve got to say nice things about the Internet. You guys are not “the Internet.” I love it, it makes me very, very happy.
DL: Congratulations. You earned it, man.
MW: Thanks, thanks a lot. I’m really tired, I didn’t really sleep. I’m not talking to anyone today, so you can know that.
DL: Okay.
MW: And I don’t want to talk about the deal. We can talk about anything else.
DL: Well, I’m obligated to try.
MW: I talked about it last night, you can see what’s out there.
DL: So what would you like to say to your most loyal fan base, first?
MW: Thank you so much for supporting the show. I feel what I always wanted as an artist was to have an intimate relationship with the audience, and you have made that possible.
DL: : Wow. We love that it is so much your baby. It’s like an auteur thing, there’s a handful of people working on TV where you know it’s them. And Mad Men is you.
MW: Well, that’s very nice. If that’s me, that’s better than I thought I was. It’s a lot of people!
DL: : Well, sure!
MW: No, I’m not just doing that out of modesty, I’m telling you. I’m proudest of the fact that I pick people around me who support me in such an amazing way. Sometimes we’re pretentious, but what else it is, every single person in every single department, there’s not a clunker in the bunch, and everybody takes [pains]. That’s why that detail is there, it’s not just cause I’m [the one doing it]. They know I’m looking, but they do it.
DL: : It really shows. As if you didn’t have enough to be happy about you have the DGA nomination.
MW: That blew me away.
DL: There you are competing with Alan Taylor.
MW: I know, I saw that. I’m glad the show got two. That made me very happy. I think we had a great run, I think Mike Uppendahl [director of Six Month Leave] did something great. Honestly, I think Phil Abraham’s episode The Jet Set was the best-directed episode of TV on this year. No doubt in my mind.
DL: Really?
MW: That’s my feeling. I’m very proud of what I did, but I look at that episode, and I wasn’t around, and it was on a very, very tight schedule, and I loved it. He did Maidenform also, which was probably one of my favorites ever. What do I mean “ever”? There’s only 26. One of my favorites? But I just loved everything about the way he did that . It was just beautifully directed.
DL: I’m up to my ears in Maidenform right now, it’s [what I'm working on for the blog], and I’m stunned by it.
Most men would love to be known as a Casanova. But for Don this is, I thought, horrifying.
MW: I’m very proud of it. I look at that thing and, when I finished I gave it to Phil and I was very proud, because you couldn’t do it on any other show, and it was completely original, and it was very meaningful to me.
DL: Well the layering of, I was just taking notes on some thoughts I had this morning, we [at Basket of Kisses] were all looking at mirrors, but then I realized “I dreamt this in my Maidenform bra,” and how much it is about fantasies.
MW: It’s about fantasies. I’ll tell you honestly, what I told the director—and it was something I was interested in from the beginning of the season—is this, you see Betty do it in the first episode and then you see the Japanese waitress, and then you see Joy eventually; there’s this thing, it’s called “the gaze” in feminist literature. It’s about the way that men look at women, mostly, and it’s about this process of assigning all these qualities to someone based on looking at them, and then all the information you get just sort of tears away at that, and just sort of erodes the fantasy. I don’t know what the gaze is about, but that’s what it was about to me. We really don’t know how we are perceived, how we look at each other, how we are looked at. It was important, not just the perception of the women. There was a lot in there about motherhood being non-sexual, Betty’s little flirtation [with Arthur], the cold water poured on it by her children showing up, the thing about how the Jackie has the children but the Marilyn is the sexy one. Peggy changing, transforming herself and then Pete sort of looking at her, the dog looking at Duck, and of course Sally looking at Don, and Don at himself.
DL: : Yeah.
MW: And it was very important, this whole idea of how you are perceived. Of course, the irony of it is, Don is the one with the reputation. When he hears that, that’s why he walks out on Bobbie. They do have an S&M relationship, but that was him saying “I don’t like being seen that way.”
DL: : Yeah, it’s fine to have a reputation as long as nobody acknowledges that it’s true.
MW: I don’t think he even wants to know that he has a reputation. I think these are discreet events and they’re not related to each other. Most men would love to be known as a Casanova. But for Don this is, I thought, horrifying. Literally couldn’t look at himself in the mirror. And you know how I’m always telling you what’s in the script or how I wrote the shot or whatever else it is? That ending shot of him on the toilet was in the script, but Phil did that, that pull out, that was a surprise when I got the dailies.
DL: The pull out to the mirror? That was unbelievable.
MW: The pull out to the mirror. The other mirror. He set that up and we built the bathroom for that show. It blew my mind.
DL: The night that it aired for the first time, I couldn’t sleep. I just kept seeing that in that mirror.
MW: David’s music in that episode! And the way Bobbie keeps revealing her children and stuff like that, it just desexualizes her.
DL: Right; mothers, and Madonna/whore.
[Betty is] sort of stuck in high school.
MW: Yeah, and there’s the other thing too, which is Don’s relationship with Bobbie, and I know everyone wanted it to be Rachel, and it wasn’t. And it was so clear what it was.
DL: Yeah.
MW: She was right, they were alike. And that bothered him.
DL: That was unbearable to him.
MW: And it had to come out somewhere.
DL: It’s so complicated.
MW: And the thing with Duck’s family, and his dog being the symbol of his weakness.
DL: And the dog has the gaze as well.
MW: The dog has the gaze. He’s being judged. That’s his whole life looking at him. And just so you know, I know the audience –maybe it was you—someone even asked me about this at the party, one of the other guests at your party—but I never thought that Duck went back inside and drank, I just thought that he couldn’t have that dog looking at him.
DL: I was not sure, when he went back, if he [drank].
MW: I realize that I do that [leave things vague] a lot, but to me he was on the wagon until he wasn’t on the wagon.
DL: The moment that he took the drink with the British guys, it was clear that was his first drink. Up until then I wasn’t sure.
MW: That was the first time that he had really gotten in trouble, yes. That was why I felt he was like, ‘hello old friend,’ this was where I’m going to be. Maybe he’d been toying with it in between. Certainly that night I felt like once he’d gotten rid of that dog he was like, ‘Okay I made it but I can’t be looked at.’
DL: The interesting thing is he had a plan, you know, sneaking into somebody’s office where he knows there’s liquor. He’s been fantasizing about it for a while.
MW: Absolutely. And it was a pain in the ass to shoot that extra hallway and cast that guy and get, he was great and everything, but all that, that’s the extra stuff that we do on that show that I’m proud of. And I can’t get over that shot of him walking in the lobby there, it’s one of my favorite things, Mark Moses.
DL: That was incredible direction, the level of detail to provide all those reflections.
MW: And incredible acting! Everyone, when they called me, I wasn’t there, they called me the next day and said ‘You’re not going to believe what he did.’ Amazing.
DL: Well you always have incredible acting. I mean, January this season has just knocked us dead.
MW: Oh, she’s, I mean, you can see it. You know, I’ve said it publicly, not that it shouldn’t be said again, but I don’t want to sound like I’m fawning. I’m in awe of what they can do and it gives me tremendous pride.
DL: It’s stunning. One of the things that she did so beautifully was be that angry and maintain that control. That’s a difficult thing.
MW: She’s been that angry for two seasons. The thing that I loved about where we took her and where she went with it was the, it was so true to that person, I tried to say it, that she’s sort of stuck in high school.
DL: : Oh my God, what a great line.
MW: She said it to Don in Three Sundays, she’s talking about high school.
DL: I can’t, I made Roberta do the write up of Three Sundays, I couldn’t watch it again. It was so painful to me that I just wasn’t ready to watch it again. The way that she treats that kid it just makes me curl up inside.
MW: I know you guys [Deborah and Roberta] feel that way, it’s so the way people treat their kids, most of the time. You know what? That kid and her are at loggerheads, he’s a person, he’s not a TV kid.
DL: : I know, and we’ve discussed that.
MW: She’s right in many ways, and she’s also wrong. But she’s right in many ways. The stuff he’s doing is kid stuff. He is also definitely paying for the fact that he’s a boy and he reminds her of Don.
DL: It’s displaced rage and it’s very painful to watch.
MW: But I think when she says he needs spanking and all this other stuff that she loses her temper about, she doesn’t know that stuff about Don. It’s perfectly respectable to say yeah, he should stop. He should definitely be punished.
DL: It just felt so disproportionate, like it felt disproportionate when she shoved Sally into a closet. That was scary.
MW: No, that’s parenting. I don’t think it’s scary, I really don’t. I’ve gotta tell you, I don’t hit my kids, but I don’t think that is, I think putting a kid into the closet is not going to devastate them for the rest of their lives.
DL: No, I mean even when you don’t hit your kids, I’ve made ten thousand mistakes as a parent. We all do. But when you’re watching a television show, you don’t know how far it will go.
MW: That’s true.
DL: And that’s more than you normally see. You’re showing us an underside that we don’t normally see on TV.
Peggy’s relationship with the priest…was a romantic relationship, even if it wasn’t sexual.
MW: I thought that it was impressive that she, that episode to me was about Betty sort of growing up. It was impressive to me that she melted.
DL: I thought it was amazing. Actually that when she was spotting my first thought was that it was representation of womanhood. She was growing up.
MW: Ohh!
DL: I didn’t even see the pregnancy, I saw: What do we call it when a woman bleeds? It’s when she “becomes a woman.” That was Betty growing up.
MW: That’s fantastic, I can’t take credit for that. That’s great.
DL: I wrote this whole essay about it and then the next week she turned out to be pregnant, I was like DAMN!
MW: No, you know what? It’s great! It’s great. Also, everyone told me that she could be spotting and the blood could be visible but it would never get onto the couch. Because I really wanted to show it on the couch.
DL: That’s true. I did some research.
MW: You know how I am about research! And I have a wife who’s had four kids, and I have moms: Maria [Jacquemetton] has had a baby and Marti Noxon’s had two babies, and everybody called their aunts ,and everybody called the nurses, and everybody called the OBs.
DL: Sure. One of our sisters spotted a lot during a pregnancy.
MW: It’s very common with horseback riding, but more importantly it’s very common if you have placenta previa. You could have chunks of the wall of your uterus come out.
DL: And then you die.
MW: No, you will not die. It happens all the time, they might put you on bed rest or put a stitch in your cervix. It was all completely plausible. Especially since it was off-camera.
DL: Okay. I’ll buy that. Speak a little bit about Betty setting up Arthur and Sarah Beth, and what her motivation was. That was fascinating.
MW: I think that motivation has multiple things. There is the thing that she’s telling herself ,and there’s the thing that it probably is for sure, and maybe there’s more. But what it was, I think, was a vicarious thrill on the one hand, which is I can’t do this but maybe you can. And then on the other hand it was, let me solve this problem. And on the other hand, I think it’s also like, “I hate Sarah Beth for having those feelings and not turning it off like a switch.” She definitely hated Arthur, she saw him hitting on another woman. That’s what that was about for me. And she said it, she’s right. There’s a superiority thing. Before she finally took the plunge in the finale, Betty is the kind of person who, part of what has kept her going is her moral superiority. Which is another high school thing. And she said ‘Just because you guys were together, I encouraged you, which you wanted me to do.’ Sarah Beth said all those things about how great Betty must be, and how great her life must be, and it just pissed her off. That’s what I think is another thing. Betty’s right. No one made them sleep together.
DL: No one made them sleep together except themselves, is absolutely true.
MW: But it was a destructive and catty thing to do.
DL: Yeah.
MW: And Sarah Beth, I think she ruined her life.
DL: Yeah.
MW: She really wanted to do it.
DL: Well she was toying with it. Sarah Beth certainly was playing with the notion of ruining her own life for quite some time.
MW: Yeah.
DL: So, was there anything you wanted to accomplish in season two that you weren’t able to? ‘Cause it’s only thirteen episodes of x amount of minutes each.
MW: No. Of the top of my head I can’t say that. I was super pleased. There were things that I hadn’t even thought of, which surprised me that I got to do, which made me happy. Like, I really felt that Joan’s story developed into something; I knew the broad strokes of it, but I felt that Joan’s story was very subtly done and had tremendous impact, and that was a surprise to me. Christina is amazing and I love writing for her, and Joan’s an amazing character, but there’s certain things that you have an expectation: This is the story for the season and I’m going to hit a few notes of it here, and have a story for it here, and have a story for it here, but I think that it became way more powerful and way more interesting to me than I thought it was going to be. And, I’m trying to think, there’s always more there. The one thing that I told you and I’m open about this: What you see is the result of a lot of culling of bad ideas. I luckily get to finish everything before people see it; you only see the good stuff. But there are so many wrong turns that are avoided. So many wrong turns.
DL: Well, that’s writing.
MW:It is, it is, and, but I mean some of the stuff that I almost did, which I’m not going to talk about, but it was, I’m very proud of [what we did instead]. I know it’s a red herring, it was frustrating to people, but I’m very proud of the fact that in the end you know Peggy, whether it was romantic or not, Peggy’s relationship with the priest is ruined. Whether it was a romantic relationship or not, and it was a romantic relationship, even if it wasn’t sexual or whatever, there was something to it, and it was ruined by her sister.
DL: Sure.
When I know more [about season 3] I will tell you some things, I’ll tell you…some thematic things, and some general things.
MW:Her sister exposing who she was. In the end, her relationship with her sister’s kids, and this whole thing of what happened to that baby, I was trying to take it out of the soap opera and just say, here’s life. This is what this woman’s decision had to be. People make this decision all the time. Not just on TV, way more in real life than they do on TV. And it’s a very complicated thing to do. And I love that.
DL: I loved watching Lizzie [Moss] go through watching that episode of “The Benefactor,” watching them discuss a woman having an abortion.
MW: Yeah.
DL: She was extraordinary.
MW: Where did she? Oh yeah! Oh yeah. That’s when you really feel like you’ve got a universe set up,is that you can show a couple of shots in there and there’s just like, you know she’s a person and she’s hearing it. I felt the same way when Pete’s father died in [episode] 2, and he came out of his office and he looked over at her, and you just had this moment where you’re like, ‘Oh right, they slept together, they have a relationship. He can’t talk to her.’
DL: And he wishes he could.
MW:Yeah. ‘There’s somebody I really know. Who else do I know here? Don.’
DL: He looked so lost.
MW:You know, the big debate about that, dramatically, for me [was], you have this big moment, he’s hung up the phone and you don’t know what’s happened. And I wonder: How long can you sustain it? The audience has no idea what it is, they just know something happened. So, is it a suspense moment? It’s not like the moment when he walks out of Don’s office and people are telling the jokes. It was the kind of thing where I was like, I think it’s worth stretching this out because you know something happened, and you don’t know it’s his father dying. You know something has changed and it’s going to draw you into the rest of it, it’s going to hit the impact of it.
DL: That I guessed, only because I’d read Chris Allport’s obit.
MW: You already knew that?
DL: He died a year earlier.
MW: He’s an actor. It was a fictitious character, I could have recast him.
DL: You could have, but you’re so meticulous about details.
MW: It could have been so many things. Trudy could have committed suicide. It could have been anything.
DL: Yeah, that’s true. That was my guess. I like it when I’m right, it makes me proud of me.
MW: Your clairvoyance irritates me.
DL: I’m sorry.
MW: It’s okay, I’m totally teasing. Okay. Anything else?
DL: You sound exhausted.
MW:I lost my voice. I was screaming.
DL: I hope you had the best party of your life.
MW: I had a great night and I was with people I love, and I am so proud, I’m just really proud.
DL: It was so beautiful, and Oh my God! You grew a beard! Are you keeping that?
MW: I don’t know, I don’t know. It’s gone over very well, I have to say. You don’t like it?
DL: No, I think it’s great! My preference is always that if a man is good looking without a beard, he shouldn’t have one, but you look good both ways.
MW: Ooooh, that’s nice, does that mean I have to have one, or?
DL: No, it means you don’t need one.
MW: All I know is, it happened over vacation, and my kids didn’t freak out, and Linda said, ‘looks good,’ so I’ve got it for a little bit.
DL: Enjoy it!
MW: Yeah, I’m always afraid of whatever, I love it, I’m super-vain so that’s very nice to hear.
DL: Well you dress well, so I figured you’re a little vain. So let me ask you one last question. I know better than to even think about a spoiler, but is there anything that’s particularly intriguing for you about season three, anything in the next year or two of history?
MW: I have to tell you I’ve been very—for both because of the bind that I’m in with my contract [this was before the contract was signed] and also just for the goodness of my imagination, I’ve been really hesitant to delve into that at all. The little things flip through my mind, and I know you’re wondering like, what’s left over, and I don’t know if anything’s left over, but little things flip through my mind. For the most part, I told you I am tied to the fact that we’ve gone out on a limb and said how old these people are, and those are the things you can look for outside of history. Unless someone else is running the show, the history is not going to drive that, what is really going to be interesting to me, and when I know more I will tell you some things, I’ll tell you like I told you last year, I’ll tell you some thematic things, and some general things.
DL: And that’s all I’m asking.
I love having regional accents, I thrive on it. Whenever I cast anybody outside of the office, I try and get them.
MW: But at this point I have been much more thinking about what is the next stage in these people’s lives? What does it mean to be, Peggy’s going to be 25, and don’t try and add up and see what year it is, because I don’t even know how I’m going to do that yet, but let’s say she’s going to be a little older than she is, she’s 22 [I think], so she’s going to be a little bit older and she’s gone through this experience. And Pete’s going to be a little [older], Betty’s going to be a little bit older, Joan, Don’s in the next phase, that’s the stuff.
DL: Yeah Joan is going to either get married or something big is going to have happened to change that.
[Matt laughs]
DL: Betty is going to have had a baby or be pregnant
MW: Or not. Right.
DL: Or something!
MW: Exactly.
DL: Those are major life changes.
MW: Yeah! Absolutely! And that’s the advantage of going out on a limb and saying how old they are. I always said that about Peggy’s pregnancy, you know, she’s nineteen years old. And I know we think that’s all normal but that informed the way she behaved that season.
DL: Yeah, and she’s from Bay Ridge.
MW: Right! That’s the biggest flaw in the entire show for me is that Peggy doesn’t sound like she’s from Bay Ridge.
DL: She does not have that voice, but her mother does.
MW: Yes, Peggy doesn’t have a Brooklyn accent, but a lot of people tried to lose them. My grandparents were working on Russian ones, and my parents on New York ones. Grace Kelly apparently had a serious diction and accent change. Just know, I never asked Lizzie to do it. So it’s my fault. She can do anything. Jerry Winter, if you ever meet him, from The Sopranos, he grew up in Marine Park [Brooklyn], and he’s got it. It’s not that strong. My father’s from Williamsburg [Brooklyn], he has one too. I can’t really hear it cause my parents have them.
DL: My parents are from Bensonhurst [Brooklyn].
MW: Well there you go. My mom’s from the Bronx, they both have fairly strong accents, but I’ve never noticed it cause they’re my dad and mom, but those accents are missing. I love having regional accents, I thrive on it. Whenever I cast anybody outside of the office, I try and get them. I mean, Myra [Turley], who plays Peggy’s mother, I mean my God.
DL: She’s awesome. I love her.
MW: She is an awesome actress and that’s the kind of stuff that we’ve got lucky with on the show. I credit my casting directors for bringing them into me. They don’t have to talk me into them, don’t worry. But like Audrey Wasilewski and Myra and Gerry—the actor’s name is Jerry actually [Jerry O'Donnell plays Gerry Respola]—who plays the husband on the couch, Tootsie, the neighbor, [those roles] to me, that was like The Jet Set, every once in a while you get to go into a whole environment.
DL: That’s wonderful. I’ll tell you that Audrey, the day before we saw her name up on IMDb, that she was going to be in season two, Roberta had sent me a YouTube clip of her from West Wing.
MW: Oh, really?
DL: Like the day before we were discussing her!
MW: Oh, cool.
DL: And then the next day we find out she’s going to be on Mad Men.
MW: Oh, she is so, so kickass.
DL: She’s charming.
MW: Yeah, just a great actress. It’s fun to get it, you know the people who were not part of the show, not permanent fixtures of the show, think about what happens, Colin [Hanks], and Sarah Drew, I mean my God, I have the best people.
DL: Look at what’s happened this year with Rosemarie DeWitt.
MW: Oh, Rosemarie DeWitt, yeah, she’s fantastic.
DL: They’re talking about her for an Oscar for Best Supporting Actress.
MW: Have you seen the movie? She’s spectacular in it. And it’s a great, great movie.
DL: I’ve been dying to see it.
MW: It actually reminded me of the show, in the sense that it was all emotionally true, I didn’t know what was going to happen, nobody got off easy, everybody had a reason for what they were doing. It’s the kind of entertainment that I like, anyway.
DL: I meant to see it, but sometimes I don’t get out.
MW: You’ll see it.
DL: If I could recommend a movie to you, you would love In Bruges, I just saw it this weekend.
MW: I saw that, that was kick ass! I was so glad he [Colin Farrell] won [Best Actor in a Comedy Movie] last night, I was sitting there like, that guy is so good!
DL: That was my second favorite moment of the night. He kicked ass.
MW: That was great, that made me very happy. I was talking to John Slattery and he was like, did you see that movie? and I was like, yeah, and he was like, yeah, how great was he? He was amazing.
DL: He blew my mind.
MW: Really really good actor.
DL: Haunting.
MW: And a movie star.
DL: And a movie star. But haunting, like I’m still troubled by what he went through.
MW: Yeah, it was amazing.
DL: And I laughed.
MW: It’s funny because, just one more thing about the Internet thing. I was saying like how, the one thing I didn’t want to mention, I didn’t want to be Tina and talk about what I hate. If you ever go on the IMDb, there is a constant—I have to go there sometimes to look up actors names and stuff—and on the MM page there’s always a comment there, and there’s a new one every day with like a comment about how awful the show is. Every. Single. Day.
DL: They are horrible, and very specifically, because message boards get different tones, very specifically, individual show and movie boards [on the IMDb] are vile, whereas if you went on one of the general film boards, the character of the people is different. Those [individual show] boards, I will stop in there, but they’re 13 year old kids who are avoiding doing their homework.
MW: They look like adults to me, but I stopped going there. I know I can’t scroll down the page because I get upset.
DL: You have my permission to stop going there.
MW: Someone gave it one star. How much effort is it to go—I’ve never written on a message board in my life—to go and write on a message board something awful. The posters are interesting and there is overlap with Basket of Kisses. It’s the constant stream of one star reviews that irks me. Who takes the time to write a four paragraph one star review? One star: That means it’s the worst show ever in the history of TV—come on.
DL: I think it has to do with the profusion of channels. Because when there was NBC ABC and CBS, everybody you knew watched the same shows you did, and you could have water cooler conversation. But there’s too many shows on. Everybody I know is watching a different favorite show on a different network, and some of them I’ve never heard of. If there’s one other person you know, in person, that watches the show you watch, that’s unusual, so we do it on the Internet now.
MW: Right.
DL: To have a conversation the next day is so thrilling.
MW: I remember Rec.Art.TV. When the internet first happened I worked on Becker, and there was a guy there, Mike Markowitz, a very, very funny writer, and he used to talk about Rec.Art.TV. and he would show us stuff on it, and the whole bulletin board idea was there and I was like, oh this is interesting.
DL: [That was] Usenet, that got ugly.
MW: The Simpsons have been merciless about it, that’s my favorite. [doing the voice] “Worst episode ever.” Anyway it’s a pleasure talking to you, I hope you’re having a great new year. I appreciate your support and the site, and I really hope to be doing this again.
DL: We are pulling for you.
MW: You guys have to understand that the fans are my foremost concern. When I write a script, I want the audience to like it, and I want the actors to like it, and I want my wife to like it. In that order.
DL: [laughs] Well, we want your wife to like it too.
MW: Well, not in that order. My wife’s first.
DL: Take care of that throat and congratulations again.
MW: Thank you so much.
3 Responses to “Matt Weiner: Post-Golden Globes interview”
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85 Responses to “
Matt Weiner: Post-Golden Globes interview ”
1
the sound of one man laughing Says:
January 17th, 2009 at
11:22 pm
Thank you very much, to give a pre-read comment…
2
S. Tarzan Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
12:43 am
Great interview. The episode from season two that I keep returning to is actually “The Inheritance”, but there’s a lot more in Maidenform than I appreciated initially. Someday I want to buttonhole MW and ask him about the political subtext in that Memorial Day lunch scene.
3
BroncoRoger Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
1:57 am
Great work as always, Deborah. Looks like it was a fun interview. He seems so engaging to talk to.
It’s amazing how interactive TV has become. Do you still pinch yourself that you are a fan of a show and you get to talk to the creator?
I’m not really a huge TV fan (of course I love MM), but I’ve enjoyed a couple of TV dramas over the years. What I would give to have had a forum like this during the thirty something and I’ll Fly Away years. Ed Zwick is one of my favorites. I can’t even imagine getting a chance to talk to him in person.
Thanks for the interview. I think I’ll go and gaze at my girlfriend now.
4
Suburban Angst
Says:January 18th, 2009 at
2:21 am
It’s interesting what he said about the IDMB Mad Men page. Posters on that board have complained about those negative ‘reviews’ too. I’m bummed that he gets so hurt by that sort of thing. Isn’t it great that he could come to BoK and get a ‘hug’ by all the fans?
MW, here’s a hug for when you need it.
Ladies Lipp, thanks for posting this great interview.
5
Karl Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
5:47 am
The mother may not die, but the baby can be lost. Not that MW would go that way, given that he left Don & Betty trapped and may want to explore that. But the phrase “more importantly” kinda jumped out at me.
Always good to read some MW, though he really shouldn’t be dwelling on some IMdB miscreants the day after he picks up another Golden Globe.
Great job as always, D.Lipp.
6
Glad Mad Woman
Says:January 18th, 2009 at
8:34 am
Wow, nice job ladies. I love hearing his thoughts on the episodes, the actors… life in general. What an interesting and impressive person. I’m so glad he’s now come to an agreement with lionsgate.
7
Roberta Lipp Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
10:15 am
BroncoRoger, thirtysomething is a favorite of mine and Deb’s as well. Right there with you.
And yes, it’s miraculous for us. I was just telling a group of friends who I don’t see very often about this whole thing (“So, some of you may have heard of this show Mad Men, and maybe you’ve heard Deb and I started a blog about it. Well lately…”) and it just remains so enthralling for us, to have received the attention of Weiner and Co., and now the relationship. Two words: Awe. Some.
8
Deborah Lipp
Says:January 18th, 2009 at
10:43 am
S. Tarzan, that was actually on my list of questions, but we didn’t get there.
9
Deborah Lipp Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
10:44 am
Bronco, I do still pinch myself.
10
JS Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
1:16 pm
If there was one storyline next season that would be cool, it would be a Peggy/Ken relationship…does anyone else think there is something there, or am I making this up in my head? He never had hang-ups about her success, I always liked that about his character.
11
wilberfan Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
1:42 pm
It really is a blessing that we have such a good place to discuss such a good show. And what a treat that we get to have these discussions with the creative force behind the show!
Brava, Ladies!
12
Karl
Says:January 18th, 2009 at
1:44 pm
Ken did hit on Peggy in “Ladies’ Room.” Later, he seemed to have a more brotherly sort of affection for her — the punch to the arm, the pat on the head… but I ’spose you never know.
13
Deborah Lipp Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
2:21 pm
He described her as “Gertrude Stein.” I don’t think that’s a very discreet way of saying “I’m not attracted.”
14
Karl
Says:January 18th, 2009 at
2:46 pm
Forgot Ken came up with that. His pass in “Ladies’ Room” could have been about the office wager. OTOH, Peggy has since dressed up for the strip club, and later got a makeover, so I wouldn’t hold him to the Gertrude Stein comparison.
15
Roberta Lipp Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
2:47 pm
Sometimes men who peg (no pun) a woman as unattractive, which Ken did in S1 when she got fat and antisocial, he has a hard time seeing her get re-attractive. I’ve observed this many times.
16
Karl Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
3:00 pm
True. Sometimes. Just saying that Ken would have legit reason to reconsider.
After all, Pete has reconsidered over time, though I think his feelings towards Peggy were always more complex than he was willing to show (as par for MM).
17
Karl Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
3:01 pm
Also, I don’t know that I ever thought of Peggy as particularly social.
18
Karl
Says:January 18th, 2009 at
3:10 pm
Tangentially, given that Ken is the published author of the group, the “Gertrude Stein” thing may be one of those infamously backhanded MM compliments (though obvsly not indicating physical attraction).
19
JS Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
3:30 pm
I guess I just want to see Ken get some more play, he’s one of those characters that seems to have some hidden depth. I feel like something interesting will happen with him.
20
portiaslegacy Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
4:14 pm
Rather than get involved with another account executive I would rather Peggy get to go to some Fluxus happenings, starting with Kurt as her guide, but eventually more on her own. Mostly I just want to see her more actively pushing social codes and alternating between thinking that these people may be on to something, and that they are crazy full of shit.
Ken just does not interest me. But a prediction is that as the decade goes on people at SC will become polarized between conservatives and liberals, and I am guessing Ken would be more on the conservative side. He will idealize some of his early SC days in ways Peggy just won’t be able to.
21
JS
Says:January 18th, 2009 at
5:01 pm
“Rather than get involved with another account executive I would rather Peggy get to go to some Fluxus happenings, starting with Kurt as her guide, but eventually more on her own. Mostly I just want to see her more actively pushing social codes and alternating between thinking that these people may be on to something, and that they are crazy full of shit.”
I liked the Peggy and Kurt scenes, they were funny and sweet. But I was surprised to see a lot of the regular recappers complain about it. Many people thought it was too predictable, having the girl find her gay and getting made over.
22
Karl Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
5:35 pm
I think Ken has potential as a character because, for all of his sexism and homophobia, he has consistently backed Peggy on a professional level. Even in “Shoot, ” before he compares her to fruit that has gone bad, his first comment compliments her work on Belle Jolie. He later gets into that fight with Pete during the second round of comments, but he backs her against Pete’s objections in “The Wheel.”
MW has said more than once that one of the things that gives him hope for society is that — despite prejudices — a good idea tends to win out, regardless of the source. I think Ken is one of the vehicles by which that idea gets explored.
23
Roberta Lipp Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
6:45 pm
@17, Peggy was more social initially, or at least tried to be. She had lunch with the boys, took a tour from Paul. Chatting with the girls in the break room. She had two turning points, as far as I can see. The events in Ladies Room, (Ken’s very clear proposition and Paul’s kiss), and Pete’s rejection of her at P.J. Clarke’s in Hobo Code. And in between, she was picking up more work, which took a lot of focus to keep up with.
24
Roberta Lipp Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
6:47 pm
And I meant to also say, the girl we see in Nixon vs. Kennedy was not the same, socially.
25
Karl Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
7:29 pm
Well, “Ladies Room” was Ep. 2, so she’s been on the less social trajectory for about as long as we’ve known her.
Not that I blame her, based on the S-C environment. And once she saw the possibility of copywriting opening up, I don’t blame her for spending her off-time reading books on advertising, instead of with the S-C bowling team.
Socializing at S-C has to be a little tough for Peggy now. She’s a pioneer, the “woman with a man’s job,” neither fish nor fowl. We saw some of that play out in S2 at the strip club; the other side is that the female copywriter probably finds it more difficult to hang out with the secretaries now, too.
The advance on Kurt seemed like a logical move — a young guy, a newcomer, and thus not already immersed in the retrograde S-C culture. She just didn’t know how much of an outsider to the S-C culture Kurt would end up being — she just keeps picking those wrong boys. Now that she’s updated her look and got her own office, S3 may see Peggy looking for more on a social level, perhaps outside S-C.
26
Karl Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
7:37 pm
Since I just mentioned “outside S-C,” I also note that Peggy moved into an apartment by herself as soon as she could afford it. In contrast, Joan had a roommate until either (a) the tension with her roomie after “The Long Weekend” got to be too much; or (b) she got serious about getting married.
27
Karl
Says:January 18th, 2009 at
7:40 pm
Also, I don’t know if Peggy’s disgust during the “NvK” party is really all that different from her attitude in “Ladies’ Room.” She may have just become more comfortable airing her disdain.
28
Karl Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
7:45 pm
In that sense, “Hobo Code” was a double turning-point. The rejection by Pete coincides with the professional success. So she sours on the thought of office romance at the same time her professional confidence is growing.
29
catherine Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
8:09 pm
Thank you so much for this insightful interview. It’s terrific that he’s so accessible and interested in sharing his view of the show — it’s as if he were just another excited and enthralled viewer.
I was especially pleased to see the MW liked your theory on Betty’s spotting. That is, a signal of womanhood, not necessarily pregnancy; a theory I believed in as well. His reaction was genuine and pleasant surprise. Well done.
I, too, dislike the IMdB BS comments, which are usually useless. Each time I look there (which is getting to be less and less), I click the “no” button where it asks “was this review useful to you?”
“Hell no!” should be the optimal response. I agree that it’s hard to understand why anyone would spend any time or energy writing a negative review. If I don’t like something, I don’t watch it; I certainly don’t seek out ways to trash it online.
30
JS Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
8:22 pm
Mad Men and Matt get a lot of love at “ohnotheydidnt,” usually they can be worse than the posters at imdb. It’s rather surprising to see all the betty, don and joan avis when something about the show is posted there.
31
Roberta Lipp Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
10:15 pm
catherine, that was definitely my favorite part to read. It reinforces what has been my experience about Matt; that he is genuinely open to this kind of interpretation to the show beyond his specific intent. And speaking to him is just like talking with another excited fan, only with all this extra insight and cool stories.
Of the folks I’ve spoken with from the show, Elisabeth Moss is the other one with a super-high level of enthusiasm. She is just breathless discussing Peggy.
32
Brenda Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
10:28 pm
Such an interesting interview! I’m surprised that he visits IMdB and I hope he doesn’t take it personally. Initially, the MM board had interesting comments, but lately it’s deteriorated so much that I don’t bother visiting.
Loved the discussion of accents, especially since I lived in Brooklyn. To me, Peggy’s character is about constant reinvention, so her lack of a Brooklyn accent seems right in keeping with that. I’m betting that somewhere along the way, Peggy had a teacher or some kind of a mentor who was not from Brooklyn, and who encouraged her to listen to the radio and records to try to lose her accent. (Remember the girl in Saturday Night Fever who copied her boss’ speech so that she wouldn’t sound like she was from Brooklyn?)
33
Roberta Lipp Says:
January 18th, 2009 at
11:06 pm
Our mom doesn’t have an accent, and she is from Brooklyn (and pretty much Peggy’s age). I mean, if you aren’t from this area you could tell she was from New York; she sound more New York than Peggy. But mom does not sound like any of the people in Saturday Night Fever, and that is pretty much her neighborhood.
34
hullaballoo Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
12:33 am
“Now that she’s updated her look and got her own office, S3 may see Peggy looking for more on a social level, perhaps outside S-C.”
Peggy got a little action (teensy, tiny bit) outside S-C at Paul’s party. Remember, she was making out with Paul’s classmate — the little guy with the glasses. He was kind of cute. She might want to delve a little further into that. I mean, he may not be her prince charming, but he’s there and he’s willing. That’s always a good sign — at least, it’s always worked for me.
35
Karl Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
12:35 am
Peggy was not impressed with his presentation.
36
simone Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
1:05 am
Man men is saved!
http://www.variety.com/VR1117998730.html
Thank god!
37
hullaballoo
Says:January 19th, 2009 at
2:56 am
“Peggy was not impressed with his presentation.”
True, but she was swayed enough to let him press her against the wall and indulge in heavy petting. Sometimes, that’s all a girl needs to get her groove back.
38
portiaslegacy Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
11:00 am
I think the point of the scene with Peggy making out with Paul’s friend was to let us know while she was still interested in men and sex, but could not act like nothing happened to her from her previous experiences. She was interested but not looking. And his presentation was straight to going to bed with him. Feeling wanted enough to sleep with some one is going to be better than “come home with me” soon after meeting.
39
Deborah Lipp Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
12:17 pm
And I meant to also say, the girl we see in Nixon vs. Kennedy was not the same, socially.
Can I suggest that she was also, y’know, hormonal?
Roberta, I can’t believe you think Mom doesn’t have an accent. Ha! Don’t you remember when she did that radio show and all we could do was stare at each other and say, “Holy God I never realized she had an accent”? Mom’s speech is cultured, not like, say, Peggy’s mom, but it’s Brooklyn cultured.
Ken may someday see his own contradictions, and move to one side or another, either more creative and open-minded, or more rigid.
40
CPT_Doom Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
12:23 pm
@32 Brenda – that’s exactly what I thought. We know Peggy was interested in more than her sister’s life from her start at S&C, and in the pilot she mentions the secretarial school she attended. I assumed such a school probably taught deportment and speech to would-be executive secretaries to improve their chances of success. I could also see Peggy as a relatively young girl already dreaming about more than Brooklyn and copying accents from the radio or the movies.
Of course, that is exactly the kind of filling-in-the-details that proves we’re all devoted fans. I also thought Weiner’s reaction to the spotting-as-womanhood theory was fantastic (and it’s so great that he appreciates the show’s fans so much), and it occurred to me that we’re all probably putting in way more detail than anyone on the show ever considered (I’ll submit my own theory on the Catholic doctrine of the Easter Duty for explaining a minor sub-point in the Peggy/priest relationship as proof). But I also love that his creation is so layered that such filling in is more than possible – and a heck of a lot of fun. This show’s world and characters are so well-drawn that they have a depth most television shows don’t.
Add me in as another long-time thirtysomething fan, and I’m not surprised to see many of us on BoK. Like MM, but with an entirely different feel, the creators of thirtysomething created a world and characters that felt real – well, most of the time, thirtysomething was far more uneven than MM – and made you really care about what happened to them. I just rewatched the episode of Gary’s death on Youtube, and was stunned at the quality of that episode. Very few shows are willing to kill off a major character, and even fewer have ever explored the depth of pain and grief that results. It’s that kind of honesty that keeps me as a fan, and MM clearly has it. When the subject of Three Sundays came up in the interview (which was fantastic, btw), I remembered that moment when Don and Betty came to shoving each other and the look on Betty’s face when Don shoved her back. It was only then that she realized the depth of anger and pain that Don is holding back, and the size of it scared the proverbial pants off of her. Brilliant acting on both their parts, but also a really brave moment for a TV show – to come that close to domestic violence and then reel it back in. It just seems like something that could easily happen in real life.
41
Deborah Lipp Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
12:32 pm
Very few television shows really get grief. I love how Michael kind of fell apart after losing his best friend on thirtysomething; he didn’t get over it in two episodes as is typical on TV.
One of the few other shows we’ve seen that on is President Bartlett’s grief over Mrs. Landingham’s death on West Wing.
42
Roberta Lipp
Says:January 19th, 2009 at
12:48 pm
Mom’s speech is cultured, not like, say, Peggy’s mom, but it’s Brooklyn cultured.
That’s what I meant.
And I know how silly this sounds in this cultured crowd, but I’ve always said that showing Monica’s grief over the ending of her relationship with Richard on Friends was startling for a sitcom. It went on for weeks, which was intense for a sitcom.
43
Karl Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
1:09 pm
1. Clearly, Peggy is not completely anti-social, as Paul’s party and the run at Kurt make clear (and I agree with portia about Paul’s party). Even so, in both cases, it’s on the sex/ romance side of things (or at least started that way). After Don — who is more a mentor — Kurt now seems to be the closest Peggy has to a friend.
2. Peggy may well have been hormonal during “NvK” — it would also explain Peggy’s crying, which was more out of character as a reaction than the disdain she had since “Ladies’ Room” for the sexism at S-C. But as I noted earlier, Peggy was also growing in confidence during this period, and simply may have felt more comfortable openly criticizing the debauchery, if not the underlying sexism, of the party. As a guy, I try to avoid hormonal explanations for things; it makes life much easier.
3. Oddly enough, I worked with one of Ed Zwick’s relatives a number of years ago, but missed the day Ed stopped by. This Zwick was a judge, but was nonetheless fond of asking lawyers to “cut to the chase.”
44
Deborah Lipp Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
1:12 pm
As a guy, I try to avoid hormonal explanations for things; it makes life much easier.
This is smart. But for the 8th month of pregnancy you get a pass, as long as you don’t actually say it to the pregnant woman.
45
RetroGirl Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
1:38 pm
A number of people have said this, and I agree. I think that most of Peggy’s social life will be through Kurt. They seem pretty close in age, and I can see him introducing her to his friends. It would be a completly new crowd, and it would be interesting to see the contrast between the world of S-C and where Kurt and his friends hang out.
I really don’t see her dating anyone from the office. They don’t know how to treat her-she isn’t one of the boys, and she’s not a secretary. Ken and the others can deal with her on a professional level, but on a personal level, they don’t know what to do with her.
46
Karl Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
1:40 pm
#44: Except in this case, we were meant to not know of Peggy’s true condition.
47
Deborah Lipp Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
2:02 pm
RetroGirl, I don’t think anyone knows how to treat Peggy. Her family doesn’t. Eugene, the guy she met at Paul’s party, thought she worked “for” the SC guys, the trucker thought she was snobby (which she was). I think if she gets involved with artists and gays, she’ll have a better chance of meeting people who accept her.
48
Karl Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
2:50 pm
How ironic would it be if Peggy got herself a Roy?
49
Karl Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
3:00 pm
(Which is an oblique way of pointing out that Don, for all of his affairs, also does not really have friends in or out of the office, probably because of the whole fake identity.)
50
Deborah Lipp Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
3:11 pm
Karl, literally yesterday I was reviewing old posts and came across this one: http://www.lippsisters.com/2008/06/28/don-has-no-friends/
51
portiaslegacy
Says:January 19th, 2009 at
3:26 pm
@ Karl
I think Peggy’s next romantic/sexual relationship will be with a male version of Midge, complementing her female version of Don thing. It won’t last, but he will appreciate that she (like Don) is always working and be able to bounce ideas off of. And probably his friends will not be to her liking.
52
Karl Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
4:07 pm
D.Lipp:
While I agree with some of the psychological aspects of why Don has no friends, I also think (as noted) that it is a practical aspect of maintaining the false identity.
Also, as we see with Peggy, there may be something in the makeup of self-made men/women that does not allow much time or space for friends.
—
As for sex/romance, pioneer Peggy would have even more reason than Don to gravitate to more forward-thinking types.
53
Karl
Says:January 19th, 2009 at
4:15 pm
portiaslegacy,
Following on my last point, the reason I picked Roy instead of Midge is that Midge was the (to Don) unusual, independent woman. Peggy probably wants someone who understands the independent woman, who is more likely to appear in the form of Roy, or a straight version of Kurt. And being single, Peggy can shoot for something more permanent than the Don-Midge relationship, which I think both understood as a temporary thing. Roy (imho) was always working for something more with Midge, his Beat facade to the contrary.
54
Patti Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
4:19 pm
Let’s not forget that S-C has merged with PPL and that opens the door for new characters coming over from London. After the Beatles came to NYC all of America became fascinated with all things English. In the middle 60s, London had the most influence on the world since the demise of the British Empire.
British films of 1963-65 included: Billy Liar, Tom Jones, Dr. Strangelove, A Hard Day’s Night, Seance on a Wet Afternoon, The Yellow Rolls Royce, The Collector, Darling, Dr. Zhivago and a great little film called The Knack…and How to Get It. All very influential.
Maybe we’ll see some crossovers between NYC and London. Maybe there’s someone really interesting for Peggy. Groovy, man, very groovy.
55
Karl
Says:January 19th, 2009 at
4:50 pm
S-C had a head start on the British Invasion. Heh.
56
Anne B Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
8:04 pm
COPT_Doom and Deb, I too liked thirtysomething. I was in my twenties at the time it aired, and didn’t yet know that Boomers were the devil..
Then I married one. And learned.
thirtysomething created a world, yes, but in hindsight I think I loved the texture of that world more than I liked any of the people in it. I didn’t recognize any of the any of the female characters as real women, actually. Only the men seemed authentic to me.
The creators of that series came into a kind of maturity — ironically — in their short-lived series about teenagers, My So-Called Life. That one was the total package: texture, plus writing and acting of a caliber that nothing else on TV at the time could match.
While I was recovering from surgery last year, my husband bought me the box set of the complete series. Such a gift, really. If you missed this show when it was on, it’s worth catching on DVD.
Back on topic …
Peggy and a male version of Midge? That would be some kind of underemployed boho/artiste, yes? Someone who’s got loads of talent and a way with people, but doesn’t too care much for money or material things?
Oh dear God.
Peggy’s gonna hook up with a Beatle.
57
catherine
Says:January 19th, 2009 at
8:47 pm
@Patti, I like the way you think. The influence of the British invasion on U.S. life would be fascinating to watch through the eyes of the MM characters.
58
CPT_Doom Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
9:42 pm
@Patti, I like the way you think. The influence of the British invasion on U.S. life would be fascinating to watch through the eyes of the MM characters.
I seem to recall, in some other thread when people were discussing where the series might move in time for Season Three, that the Beatles on Ed Sullivan was noted as a potential starting point. Given the merger at the end of 1962, any cross-cultural issues between S&C and PPL would be starting to arise by Spring 1964, it would fit in pretty well.
59
Brenda Says:
January 19th, 2009 at
10:44 pm
Peggy is a study in progression. The first step was secretarial school. The next moving out of her mother’s house (a HUGE step for an ordinary single girl back then.) The third was her initial climb at S-C. The fourth her decision to give up her baby. The fifth her more-advanced climb at S-C. The sixth her changes in wardrobe and hair.
What’s next? A real leap up the S-C ladder, a relationship that might leave her sadder but wiser, and then finding the right husband who will support, not hinder, her career. Mary Wells Lawrence married the former head of Braniff Airlines. It will be someone like that — an older client who gives her an account and an engagement ring.
60
Patti
Says:January 19th, 2009 at
11:17 pm
The assassination of JFK on 22 November 1963 and the rise in popularity of the Beatles have always been linked in my mind.
Beatlemania had spread throughout England and had reached the attention of national media in Britain by the fall of 1963. On November 22, 1963, CBS morning news aired a five minute human interest story on the British phenomenon. They had planned to show the story again in the evening news broadcast, but at 12:30 that day Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas.
It is difficult now to grasp the complete shock that swept the nation that day. Was that day like 9/11? Yes and no. Totally shocking, yes, but there was no “enemy” like a terrorist group to focus on.
There were so many questions and no adequate answers. For many there are still no adequate answers. It was an unbelievably depressing winter.
So, for young people, reeling from the Cold War threat of annihilation and the unbelievable loss of a young charismatic leader, February brought a welcome diversion in the form of four funny, charming, silly looking guys who played instruments and sang clever little songs while shaking their shaggy heads. American kids followed them like the pied piper.
It would only be a couple of years and then many of those kids were being unwillingly shipped off to Vietnam.
So have some compassion for the boomers. They’re not evil. They may have been the most spoiled and indulged generation ever, but they got set up and then they got blown away.
Oh, and sorry for using up all the Social Security funds guys.
61
Deborah Lipp Says:
January 20th, 2009 at
12:10 am
My son was a baby when Michael & Hope’s kids were babies. I totally related to Hope’s struggle with re-finding her identity now that she was a SAHM, and with her difficulty in relating to her friends who weren’t on board with the motherhood thing, and really, a lot of it. Figuring out how a new baby re-shapes marriage was very real to me.
62
Anne B Says:
January 20th, 2009 at
3:12 am
Patti, the shock to the system that this country suffered when JFK was killed was so deep and true that even my husband (a boy when it happened) is still trying to process it. I remember coming across a magazine from that week in the archives of the library I worked in as a teen, and noticing that there were whole empty galleys in it. Advertisers had pulled their ads from that week, and nothing filled their places. It was a time of such complete dislocation; I don’t think we can imagine anything like that now.
9/11 was not the same. The coordinated response, the rush to fill the grief and shock with noise and “healing” … there was something off about it. I don’t know how to explain it. Maybe it’s time to change the subject.
Re the Social Security thing:
LOL. It’s okay, really. I never expected to see a check. The whole Boomer “us-vs.-them” thing is a game my husband and I play. Until I send him off on his own personal shrinking ice floe, we’re good.
And who’s the President tomorrow? Uh huh: a post-Boomer. We’re tiny, we’re mighty. We get once-unimaginable things done!
Deb, the one woman on thirtysomething I did relate to (after a while) was Nancy. I was at my parents’ home recovering from chicken pox, watching the episode where she finds out she’s got cancer; in a quiet moment later that night, I noticed a pain in my gut that would not go away. That was my own ovarian tumor.
I wouldn’t have found it if it weren’t for her. The coincidence, I remember, was spooky. So — whiny as I thought she was — here’s to Nancy. Girlfriend probably saved my life.
63
Roberta Lipp Says:
January 20th, 2009 at
7:34 am
Anne, wow. What I’d heard about thirtysomething was that they (Zwick and Hershkovitz) had intended from the beginning to kill off a major character. And as things developed, it was going to be Nancy from the cancer. But the effect on the cancer community was so positive (phone calls and attendance to support groups swelling after each episode) that it would have been a detriment to do it, and so they made it Gary. Which was brilliant.
But I’ve never heard a story like yours. So wow.
MSCL is so deeply another favorite of mine. They also did the very short-lived and just as interesting Relativity, and Once and Again, which got a bit more attention. All stellar.
64
Jules Says:
January 20th, 2009 at
11:02 am
According to wikipedia, a bastion of nothing really, Baby Boomers include anyone born up until 1965, so technically, Obama is a Baby Boomer. So am I, but I’ve never felt like one. I guess I’m a borderline baby boomer.
Back to this wonderful, insightful interview with MW. Thank you so much, Sisters Lipp, for having a blog of such quality that people involved in this great show not only pay attention, but contribute. Getting a peek inside the mind of the creator is rare, and it seems as if he really like you guys (and us!) and is probably sharing more than if he were being interviewed by some random entertainment journalist.
As far as thirtysomething, I didn’t care for it. It was well-done and different, but I didn’t like any of the characters.
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Deborah Lipp Says:
January 20th, 2009 at
11:48 am
I don’t get this whole idea that Barack Obama is a post-boomer. He and I are exactly the same age. We’re boomers. The boom ended in 1964.
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Deborah Lipp Says:
January 20th, 2009 at
12:00 pm
Jules, there’s a book on the baby boom called Do You Believe In Magic?, which I know about because my ex-husband is featured prominently in it, that proposes dividing the boom into “late boom” and “early boom,” and points out that what we think of as “the” boom is really the early boom. You and I and Barack Obama are late boom.
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Karl Says:
January 20th, 2009 at
12:04 pm
Don Draper would totally get it.
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Anne B Says:
January 20th, 2009 at
3:06 pm
Well, Generations (Strauss and Howe, 1991) defines the generation as those born between ‘61 and ‘81 — though many place the start closer to ‘65. Depending on how you define it, each generation gets either 20 or 25 years.
But to my cohort (there has never been a better way to put this), generational identity has always been more a matter of feeling — the perception you shared of your world. To the people I’ve known, this has always been a feeling of being among the last to arrive at the buffet.
Among the last. We learned this fast. First thing you do when you get to the table is look behind you: Oh s**t! Look at all those people! And you get to work, making the cheese cubes smaller.
I’ve always seen myself as part of a generation that excel at organizing for common causes, find fulfillment in raising children, and are great restorers of things others have left behind. They’re also pretty good writers, Deb.
Thing is … the Boomers would say exactly the same things!
But others classify Gen X as such because of its lack of numbers (it’s the “baby bust” generation), or by its chronological number (the 13th). But definitions don’t really mean as much as self-identification does. It’s how you see yourself that matters. Today — especially after that speech — the Boomers want Obama, and so does Generation X.
It’s good. We’re all his boss, and we will be for years. Isn’t that great?
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Deborah Lipp Says:
January 20th, 2009 at
3:13 pm
Anne, my understanding is that the Baby Boom isn’t defined by standard generation splitting, but by the birthrate (the boom) which dropped after ‘64. Hence I, born in ‘61, am late Boom, and Roberta is Gen X.
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Brenda
Says:January 20th, 2009 at
6:46 pm
I’m another late boomer. There was a theory that never much got off the ground about Generation Jones (as in, keeping up with the Jones) that the first 10 years of the boomers had very little in common with the second eight years of the boomers. The first group of boom babies were dealing with a country that was regrouping after the war. Servicemen were still returning, refugees were settling, homes were being built.
By the time the second group came along, the nation was comfortable and looking forward, as in MM. These were the younger sisters and brothers of the older boomers who missed the first seasons of Howdy Doody and Mickey Mouse Club and all the 50s TV shows. Their memories start with the Beatles, the Civil Rights movement and Vietnam (plus the Monkees, Batman and Laugh-In.)
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hullaballoo Says:
January 20th, 2009 at
7:28 pm
I guess technically, I’m a late boomer, but I don’t feel like a “Baby Boomer” at all. Growing up, I had very little in common with anyone born before 1960 or ‘61. As I age, I’ve found that those differences don’t matter so much any more. But growing up? We were worlds apart.
As a media/TV wonk, I think I define the generations by what they were watching on TV, and listening to on the radio. For example, if Sesame Street was one of your earliest media experiences, and the debut of MTV was an event for you, then you’re not a Baby Boomer in the traditional sense.
Comment archive part 2:
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RetroGirl Says:
January 20th, 2009 at
11:30 pm
I’m not sure I see Peggy going out with a Brit. At that point, wouldn’t they have been more traditional? Peggy wants a career, and she won’t give it up for a man. That being said, I do like the idea of new characters from across the pond.
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Karl Says:
January 21st, 2009 at
12:35 am
A Brit wouldn’t necessarily be more traditional. For example, a lot of the classic British rockers came out of the art schools of the period, so a younger creative/art person from PPL could be groovy. And another outsider to the established S-C culture. That being said, I don’t know that MW would go that direction, if only b/c the Euro Kurt already fills that sort of slot.
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Jules Says:
January 21st, 2009 at
8:47 am
I can embrace being a late boomer. I’ve never heard the term, but agree that those of us born at the end of the boom had quite different experiences growing up, from the early boomers.
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Noah
Says:January 21st, 2009 at
1:20 pm
Okay, I love this interview. And I love Mad Men. And I love Matt Weiner. But I also love Tina Fey and 30 Rock just as much. And I feel this must be said.
Matt seems super sour grapes about the interweb. WAY more so than Tina. He can’t criticize her for dwelling on the negative parts of the internet and then go on a semi-rant about IMDb [talk about lowest common denominator]. Tina was extremely tongue-in-cheek in her speech.
I do commend MW for being in touch with his internet fan base. Tina definitely doesn’t have that kind of relationship with fans. But she’s also a bigger name running a bigger show. I’m not saying it’s necessarily deserved, but 30 Rock is on a major network and winning more awards than Mad Men. It’s not a big hit, but it’s not on the same intimate scale as Mad Men.
[The 30 Rock fanboy in me had to write that.]
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Karl Says:
January 21st, 2009 at
1:53 pm
Noah,
I like 30 Rock also. But there’s video of Tina Fey after the Golden Globes that suggests her attitude was not any more tongue-in-cheek than MW’s. Indeed, it was pretty obvious that she really didn’t want in any way to revisit the topic with O’Neil from the Gold Derby (the forum whose critics Fey knows by screenname). Dressing it up as a joke is a pretty common way for comics to attack their critics. And I don’t blame either of them for being a little hurt by over-the-top or baseless attacks from anonymous d-bags.
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Noah Says:
January 21st, 2009 at
2:18 pm
I saw the O’Neill video, but Matt was kind of throwing Tina under the bus. I don’t know. Maybe it’s just me.
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Brenda Says:
January 21st, 2009 at
3:09 pm
Late boomer: Barack Obama. Early boomer: Bill Clinton.
Late boomer: Brian Williams. Early boomer: Tim Russert.
Late boomer: Meg Ryan. Early boomer: Diane Keaton.
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Deborah Lipp
Says:January 21st, 2009 at
3:10 pm
Noah, Matt has totally acknowledged that he’s super-sensitive. That’s his right. It’s not like the IMDb board is bad–it was me who said it was, not him–it’s that it’s harsh. And he does criticize people who take the time to write one-star reviews because he thinks it’s wacky. Which I kind of disagree with; you never know what’s going to get the writer muscle all worked up. Sometimes the one-star reviews are the fun ones to write. But of course, anyone who writes one about Mad Men is totally wrong-headed.
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Karl Says:
January 21st, 2009 at
5:08 pm
Noah,
It’s just you. Kidding, but it is your perceprion. The MW video is him trying to not be drawn into the controversy and saying there are places where that stuff doesn’t go on, like BoK. He’s certainly under no duty to defend Tina Fey, who should be capable of defending herself (but clearly didn’t want to after the awards show). Honestly, I don’t know why either would bother baiting Internet trolls.
—
As for one-star reviews, it depends on the merits of the reviews. And even if I was not an MM fan, I would hope I could recognize that it’s not deserving of a one-star review. There are plenty of shows on TV I don’t watch or think much of that I would not find worthy of what passes for a one-star review at IMdB.
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Anne B Says:
January 21st, 2009 at
6:01 pm
Great clarifications, Brenda.
I find Brian Williams rather hot, in an earnest way. I can’t see our new President as anything but earnest, hardworking, and a guy I want very much to hug. He feels like my brother.
On topic, for this post: I wanted to finally say how wonderful it is to read the voice of a man who appreciates “the female gaze”. That sense of being seen — and not seen; of being able to choose how you are seen, and by whom? That’s critical to us. This is what makes Mad Men what it is: the show that puts “Men” in the title, but women in the context. Every second of it.
As for one-star reviews: like a lot of posts you find elsewhere, these say more about the reviewer than the content under review. Consider the source: consider the misery on the other side of that screen. Sometimes it’s what you can’t see that makes all the difference.
I try to think of Mr. Gower in “It’s A Wonderful Life”. Why’d he do that to George? Why was he being such a nasty old man? If you never read that telegram, would you know?
I lost someone to cancer just this morning, so I’m having a Mr. Gower kind of day myself. Trying to edit the raw stuff out, at the moment. But I wonder whether it’s working.
I know I say this a lot, but it’s great to have the Basket. There isn’t much comfort in life; but this place is something to count on. It is small and true.
I love it here.
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Deborah Lipp Says:
January 21st, 2009 at
6:09 pm
I have an IMDb friend who routinely rates movies on a scale of 7-10. A 7 is a movie he pretty much hated. But, he says, look at the production values, the acting, the movie compared to all movies in the history of movies, it’s not a 1, it’s not a 2, it’s a 7. And I kind of think that’s how Matt feels about it.
Personally, I do give 1s. Rarely, but I do.
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Deborah Lipp Says:
January 21st, 2009 at
6:10 pm
Anne, I am very sorry for your loss.
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Anne B Says:
January 22nd, 2009 at
4:52 pm
Thanks, Deb.
This is one of few places I could talk about it. So thanks for that too.
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Basket of Kisses | The rage of Three Sundays
Says:August 3rd, 2009 at
11:44 am
[...] we spoke with Matt, we kind of disagreed about Three Sundays. I found watching the episode almost unbearable, because [...]
Will be coming back here again and again, and I will say my friends as better. This is a immense website.