Open Thread: A Night to Remember
Open thread, here we go. Chat your little hearts out.
Please read our comment and spoiler policies before posting for the first time.
September 14, 2008 By: Deborah Lipp Category: Lipp Sisters/Basket, Season 2
Open thread, here we go. Chat your little hearts out.
Please read our comment and spoiler policies before posting for the first time.
Basket of Kisses: The unofficial blog of AMC's Mad Men. Where all the cool kids meet & greet to talk about Don Draper, Janie Bryant, Christina Hendricks, Jon Hamm, Matthew Weiner, & subtexty things.Columnist Froma Harrop talks about the series appeal viewed through today’s society and values
Scholar Jason Mitchell thoughtfully presents his reasons for disliking Mad Men (even though he’s dead wrong; plus, he’s a fan of the sci-fi Christian melodrama Lost).
Is Danny a young Matt Weiner?
High praise for Elisabeth Moss’s lovely gown
Shockingly, the Fug Girls like what January wore to the Emmys.
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Last night I dreamed
— Beatnik, Babylon
of making love to Fidel Castro
In a king-sized bed
at the Waldorf Astoria.
Viva la revolucion! he roared
as he vanquished my dress.
Outside the window
Nikita Kruschev watched us
Plucking a chicken.
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Entries and Comments.
Prosumer 1.5 made by Nurudin Jauhari
September 14th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
I can't wait to see what everyone thinks.
September 14th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
So, should I crack open my box of sangria, or try to class it up and make a nice cocktail with with my Pama pomegranate liquer? Or stick to vodka (and probably flat by now) tonic?
September 14th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
I am in Quebec where they do not show Mad Men. Must wait for itunes (sigh)
September 14th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
I'm glad we are going to be seeing more of Peggy again. I forgot what the rest of the previews were after the show last week. Old age getting to me, I guess.
September 14th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Ooh, go with the Pama!! I am debating but think I will end up with a Kir Royale!! (champagne and creme de cassis, so retro!)
September 14th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Good idea, miamimami
I just invented a new cocktail-the "Tipsy B4 10" pour 2 parts pomegranate liquer, 1 part vodka over ice, fill with lemonade.
September 14th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
It's like our hostess is channeling Joan.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
See you at the commercial! Here we go.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Made it in the nick of time!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
I called it in the S2 episodes thread! Heineken!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
First her children, now the furniture, is nothing safe from Betty Draper?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
I'm getting the impression that Betty is upset about something.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Hee hee, Peggy!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
"she's so much woman"
September 14th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Oh Warren, you speak for all of us!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
i love betty's dress…….
September 14th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Piglet. Oh, this is painful.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Joy… Hah!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
"Crab, Duck. Duck, Crab."
LMAO!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
I just wanna give Peggy a "swoop" and get rid of the bangs!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Looks like Father Gill made a mistake choosing The Fallen Woman to write the CYO copy…
September 14th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
"the kind of hand-holding that leads to marriage"
bwaha!! what?! hand-holding leads to marriage!??
September 14th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
eh, que es CYO?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Father Gill is giving me the creeps.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Catholic Youth Organization?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
I am guessing Catholic Youth Organization???
September 14th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Why does Joan sound like she sucked on helium?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Wait, isn't the actor playing Joan's man different from the one she was kissing on the couch in a previous ep?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Joan has a completely different voice when speaking to her fiance.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
True, Kay!!
Wait, did he say 'to soothe your cravings?'?? Is Joan preggers?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
omg – i loved betty's dress, but joan's outfit just motivated me for post-bebe
September 14th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
thanks Ms. Golightly and Laura….
September 14th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
I KNEW she was going to make Don pay for the Heineken comments!!!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Such wonderful self-absorption from Betts!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
HOLYSHIT
September 14th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
"I know what kind of a man you are."
whoa, very interesting comment from Betty.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
@Melville: Agreed – I wasn't looking at the screen when she started speaking, and I thought it was Sally…
September 14th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
she's so old – thats the best she can come up with???
September 14th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
O.M.G.!!!!!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Well, I told y'all she would be upset that Bobbie was "old" and not that she was messing around! Whatta weirdo!
Keep lying, Don, baby! And get you another mistress!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Like a cheating man is ever going to say,"Why yes, I am cheating!" Deny Deny Deny
September 14th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Until that shot of Joan's domestic life I didn't know it was possible to chew, talk and bite your tongue with all your will at the same time.
And yeah another vote for the "Father Gill is creepy somehow" club.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Hope that we're going to see more of Joan with this new development. Also, can we start a collection for Sally and Bobby's much needed future therapy sessions?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Father Gill seems like one of those creepy priests from the news a few years back!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
True, Adrianen – their therapies can be a basis for a whole other show…
September 14th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Sally and Bobby’s much needed future therapy sessions?
Don does not have that much time to spend on the phone w/Dr. Wayne.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Does anyone think that the Church Ladies "know" all about Peggy, and that's why they were giving her a hard time? Or is that just standard Church Lady behavior?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
I figure upper-middle class people don't do the throw hot grits/ grease on a man thing, otherwise Don wouldn't have been so pretty in the morning.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Such wonderful self-absorption from Betts!
What?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
i think father gill just feels awkward around peggy – he likes her, but has what anita told him lurking in his head – he must be wondering, how can i like someone that is "fallen" and a "sinner"
September 14th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
I loved Joan's at home casual look. Her fiance sounds like a jerk to me. Not wanting her to work or have a mind of her own. Did I hear him correctly saying something about her cravings?
I can't believe Betty finally said something to Don! Wow! She is so pissed at him. I feel bad for the kids. I hope they don't get the brunt of her anger.
It looks like Peggy has trimmed her hair. Did you notice that her ponytail looks a little shorter? I agree with Kay…I would love to get rid of Peggy's bangs.
Right before Mad Men, the movie Philadelphia was on. We got 2 Hanks for the price of one…or something like that.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
i think its standard church lady behavior because one of them told her that she was a doll
September 14th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Go Harry, for cleaning that up!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Good thing we like Betty's dress, because methinks she's going to be wearing it for the rest of the episode…
September 14th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
"Helluva operation you got here, Crane."
"Yeah, next time you better comb your hair before you talk to Joan!"
September 14th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Oh, shit! Will she find the Adam stuff, or did he burn all that? I think he had one photo left.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Y'all think Don will have some funky used condoms in his pockets?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
I doubt joan would be pregnant. If she were sue would push up the wedding date to be much sooner than December – which would be post-partum.
Love Betty going nuts.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
eewww que nasty!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Thank you, Roberta, that's very sweet of you to say! I'm back from my trip, watched the ep I missed online, and here I am…
I wonder if Betty will find anything incriminating…
September 14th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Man , Don has a great wardrobe! Betts really needs to change out of that *stank* dress!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Harry begins to realize what he has unleashed.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Wow, Harry and Joan make a great team! Oh no, Betts is unraveling before our eyes….
September 14th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
I think Joan's fiance was referring to some inevitable future, where she's barefoot and wallowing in bonbons watching her "stories" while Fiance Jr plays in a highchair. Whee.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Betty's taken over Bobby's role of breaking things in the house…
September 14th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Uh oh Harry you might have schemed your way out of your own job this time.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
LOL Laura
September 14th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Harry is a male bimbo! Why did he do that?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
This is heartbreaking.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
i missed it! what did harry do??? aaaaaaaahhhh
September 14th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
ok I was wrong wrong wrong about Joan – her man is very real. He seems to be a jerk though. She seems to be another person around him ((yet I know women in real life like that)). He seemed to be a bit pushy but I guess that was the way things were around then.
Betty is losing it. Jealousy can consume a sane person to no end. I sort of half like Don's character but he is a shit and a liar if he were a real person. I guess I would be charmed by him at first meeting.
Peggy – well – church ladies act like this now.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
This episode is going way too fast…
So, the Night to Remember 'Titanic' (possibly) theme – Betty's going down?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
I can't understand why "old" Bobbie is the upsetting part? If it was "un-old" Jane, would it have been better? Huh?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
i need to watch the encore……
September 14th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Poor Sally and poor Betty. She is really having a breakdown.
When I saw her looking at the broken glass, I was so afraid Don was going to come home to find that Betty had cut herself. I'm glad that wasn't the case. Did anyone else worry that she would do that?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
@miamimami
Joan is winning over the clients and has just gotten a $150/week gig in the TV department.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
I liked the way that Joan said Thank you! When he said I guess that's okay. She still a woman who won't put up with crap. I agree with an earlier post that she won't go to the alter. I think she'll get the TV job.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Joan's finace is just going to love her promotion. LOL
September 14th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
If you think about it, Joan's fiance wants her to live the life she talked about to Peggy in S1 E1. I think she realizes she doesn't exactly want that bonbon eating life, lol.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
I don't know, Jan, I didn't think she would hurt herself, but I thought that she would throw the glass against the wall, the way she kept banging the chair. It is heartbreaking to watch, she is trying the best she can to get through to Don and engage in some sort of healthy discussion about what's happening.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
thanks Karl!
150 a week – thats alot! isnt that more than peggy?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Don keep lying, Baby!
She's finally out of that pretty but funky dress!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Ah ha ha Miracle Whip!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Oh, Joan! F*ck!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
oh no! poor Joan. That is not fair. She had done something great going there.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Whoa! Joan is not getting that gig? This is t-r-o-u-b-l-e.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
haha that woman who was going to go into Peggy's office but saw the priest, and walked away!! haa!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
I agree, Karl, well-said! Joan should make a stink over that.
Ugh creepy Gill, leave Peggy alone.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
god already knows whatever it is……
September 14th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
MYOB Father.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Oh, dang. I felt that in the solar plexus.
Poor Joan… I shouldn't be surprised, but I had so much more faith in Harry.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Father Gill might be "preying" from the pulpit!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Peggy is exercising great restraint here – I would have bitch-slapped Gill by now.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
I'm sure Joan will find a way to get back at him. I hope she does. Maybe the guy will be awful?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Joan is a completely different person around her fiance. Am I alone in this?
Betty is unraveling….
September 14th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Watch out Father, you may get too close to the truth… *Peggy has no soul!*
September 14th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
LOL @ Kay!!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
I want to be able to wear dresses like that.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
LOL, Kay!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Don come over to MY place!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Poor Peggy! Did you notice how she was holding her stomach when he left? (sigh) Ugh – my heart is breaking for all our gals tonight!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Betty wears the best clothes – even when she is telling Don not to come home.
September 14th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Father Gill rocks out!!! He's going to be natural at Folk Masses!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
awwwww he's a folk catholic musician
September 14th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
what was the mark on Joan's back?
September 14th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Seriously, all the women really had it rough tonight, more than usual…
Don, go to Kay's house!
September 14th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
It was a bra strap mark from having "big ones" as Sally would say.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Waynette, it was from Joan's bra strap digging into her shoulder.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Don will rise again…on top of some new mistress! LOL!
September 14th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
ohoh – well she beat me by a few letters up there. I am almost a B. LMAO!
September 14th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
So Joan doesn't want Peggy's job, but she's not averse to a position that uses her talents beyond office manager. It's not as easy as you think, Joan.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
LOL @ Karl.
Looks like the season is getting darker by the week.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
Wow did Betty really confront Don? That only took 20 episodes…
Father Gil should release a solo album.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
That teaser better be up soon, or I'll be breaking a chair.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Father Gill is such a passive-aggressive bully with Peggy, it's really bugging me.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
But Karl, will you be wearing a beautiful dress while breaking the chair? Because that would be worth it!
September 14th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Jan W,
See Joy @ 143.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Jan – I thought it showed how Joan felt beaten down by her job and had the marks to prove it. Like when you kick off your high heels after a long day of work, trying to lose the trappings of career…
September 14th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
I still have no idea why Bobbie's age was the big deal but not that he was with another woman, any woman….Why did her age bug Betts so much…"she's so old"? WTF?
September 14th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Laura Leone,
I would consider the dress if I could get that hair.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Great thought, Kay!
Thanks, Karl for directing me to her post.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
I took the Joan scene as going along with the Peggy scene. Father Gil is singing, "Early in the Morning", but it's at the end of their day. And it's been a tough one. We as women take emotional and physical abuses (restraints).
Gosh, the Jimmy scene…Jimmy remnds her of Bobbie…Bobbie reminds her oh yeah that's where my husband's dick has been…HEY DICK DON"T COME HOME! I mean Don.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
have large breasts is heavy weight to carry around, hence why women that fall into that catagory get these marks – its also a killer on your back
carrying that heavy weight might be a metaphor for something else in joan's life….perhaps?
im not an authority as i asked for boobs when i was 14 after all the other girls where developing – fate fulfilled my request this past november after my daughter was born! haha
September 14th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
It's up Karl!!!
September 14th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Karl, I lay down a Halloween challenge to you.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
OK, I don’t get the significance of having a shot of Joan’s bra strap digging into her shoulders. Could someone ’splain it to me.
What was it about Jimmy’s dumb commercial that set off Betty?
Joan's bra strap = All the men valued in Joan, more clearly than ever in this episode, is her looks.
This episode was very much about the women paying the high price for the men's entitlement. That was a perfect symbol of that price.
Regarding the commercial, it was just a visceral reminder of the affair, of Jimmy's words to her, of Don's career (which was also hurtful to her this week).
September 14th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Kay,
In S1, Betty talked a lot about her appearance and not wanting to get old. I think Betty sadly defines her self-worth disporportionately by her youth and beauty. So Don sleeping with someone older is really threatening to her.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
"Early in the Morning….I ask the Lord, help me find a way to the Promised Land." The women really need help in finding their way, don't they?
September 14th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Betty's afraid of getting older and losing her looks, remember that talk last season where she said that she had thought her mother's looks at the end were a good indication that she would also age well – so maybe it's freaking her out that Don would choose an older woman over her, particularly with whom to have a sexual relationship.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Karl, we had the same thought about Betty and getting older at the same time…
I'm sure we could find a Betty wig for you!
September 14th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
@ Jan W #150
OK, I don’t get the significance of having a shot of Joan’s bra strap digging into her shoulders. Could someone ’splain it to me.
I took it to be her realization that her "physical assets", however well they have served her up until now, are not going to help her to move up into a "man's" job.
What was it about Jimmy’s dumb commercial that set off Betty?
I'm stumped about that, too, beyond it being a reminder of what Jimmy said. The commercial specifically, I don't know.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Joy,
Unfortunately, Harry would be a much better bet.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
I thought that was the reason Betty got upset about the commercial but thought maybe there was more to it than I got. Thanks, Roberta.
Gotta go for the evening. Hope everyone has a great week.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Holy.
Crap.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
I really think that Father Gil is trying to help Peggy. He wants her to take communion, he wants her to be close to God again. However, he really only wants to help because of what he heard in confession. That's what is wrong. He should shut up. She'll come to God when she is ready and not because he is ready. And she may never communicate with God again. Once again it's up to her.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Kay,
My chairs thank you.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
if karl dresses up as betty – i will dress up as father gil
September 14th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Well-articulated, Ms. G.
LOL @ Kay and Karl!
September 14th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Tilden Katz!
September 14th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Don't know if this is a spoiler or not but….
Next week is a rerun! Three Sundays!
September 14th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
the utz commercial started with a mention of a night on the town at a nice place….the way he said seemed to jar her because it seemed like he was going to go into one of his diatribes….disguised as a joke
a reminder of her humiliation
September 14th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Watching the encore. Bobby's zoned out face during Sally's dance is priceless.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
very good episode tonight. I like the theme – and the way it worked through with everyone. Night.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
actually, i'll dress up as sally, in her ballet costume….all seven months of me in a leotard – priceless
September 14th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Bobby always looks a little shell-shocked to me.
Mrs. Crab is a total lush.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Karl: http://www.bulletbras.net/ (the secret to my Joan Holloway costume…)
September 14th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
night waynette.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Yeah, I agree with 166 and 168. When a man cheats with an objectively less desirable woman (in the evolutionary psychology sense), then the wife has to think "What's wrong with me?"
September 14th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Considering the show's obsession with getting the period details right, I'm wondering if "As The World Turns" really did have a storyline where someone came back from the dead during the summer of 1962. That was a pretty common gimmick on soaps when I watched them in the 80's, but maybe it was a new idea in 62.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
One more thing before I go….since the Emmys are on next week, we will have to wait until the 29th for the new episode. It will be fun seeing the cast in 2008 fashion.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
After the "old" comment, I'm glad "old" Bobbie tapped that @ass! LOL!
September 14th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
In the previews at the end of the ep, did it say 'in two weeks'?
September 14th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Jan, as far as I know, MM is airing. Which sucks. I would love to be wrong.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
I vote for Kay for Don's next mistress!
September 14th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
According to Betts, at 34, I'm too "old!" LMAO!
Oh, I read on the AMC site that the new episode was to air Sept. 28!
I hope that's not a spoiler…..
September 14th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
AMC rushed that info because 2 weeks from today is the 28th but in BIG letters they have the 29th!
September 14th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
What did Betty see while watching the Utz commercial that led her to call Don and tell him not to come home?
September 14th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
The comment about Bobbie's age reminds me about Betty's confusion about Don wanting to leave the Memorial Day luncheon in the middle of a fashion show. If Don's not attracted to physical beauty, then she doesn't know what to offer him.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
@ Kay:
"I can’t understand why “old†Bobbie is the upsetting part? If it was “un-old†Jane, would it have been better? Huh?"
I think its shocking to many women who's men cheat on them…is that their men aren't always cheating on them with someone younger and prettier. A lot of the times it has nothing to do with them at all. i think a lot of women think that if their men are cheating, its cause they themselves aren't "cutting it" as the type of woman their man needs….when that's not the case. The majority of the time, the cheating is never about the wife. And i think Betty's trying to come to grips with that. Don doesn't cheat on her cause she's not pretty or young enough. Its not about that.
She can't conceive why else. Especially in her stereotypical mindset that men want a woman who is "tall, tan and young and lovely". And Bobbie's not. Well, she's kinda tall.
She really is trying to understand Don. She says she knows him, but i think the more she learns…the less she knows. And that's disturbing to her in itself….
with Father Gill…i think he "doesn't get" Peggy. And he finds that intriguing. That he can't put her in a box. Categorize her, nail her down to a science. Again, he doesn't understand her either. Oh, and he wants her, real bad. haha.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
I really, really enjoyed this episode – dark and nuanced, just the way I like my MM. Good night!
September 14th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
I just had one of those little 1 second balckouts, and now I have to wait for the cable box to boot up again. Shit.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
I wonder what Betts would say if she knew about Rachel…"She's so Jewish!" Or Midge…"She's so high!" I'm convinced Betty has a less than firm grip on reality….
September 14th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
I don't know, Kay. Birdie had Don pretty much dead to rights in her initial confrontation: not only that he slept with her, but that it was a compulsion on his part.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
I don't blame Harry. He wanted a "jr." in the department (as Sal suggested) and Roger said no, and then Joan said "one of the girls" would help. Joan didn't ask for the job, and no one but Joan knew she wanted it.
It's ironic and painful. Joan just dressed Peggy down 2 episodes ago, and told her she never wanted a man's job in a man's world, and now, all of a sudden, she does want that. Because, hello? Everyone wants the satisfaction of being good at something and being noticed at it. Joan felt good. She didn't want a "man's job," she just felt good.
And the way she said "of course" and was all fine? She was trying to tell herself she still didn't want it. And Harry never knew.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Marylou posts 161 and 165 hope they help!
September 14th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
I’m already excited.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
…me again:
@ Joy,
"Poor Joan… I shouldn’t be surprised, but I had so much more faith in Harry."
…i didn't have faith in Harry. Hes great and all. But why would he even THINK for a moment that Joan would want that job? i'm sure it was completely his thinking that she was only "helping him out", and that the extra workload on her was even too much as it was. He wouldn't even consider she'd want that job instead of her own. I don't think he was rude about it at all. Just ignorant.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
What a very enjoyable episode this turned out to be! Mad Men, as usual, keeps getting better and better each time. I loved the whole Duck/Crab joke alot. That was such a very funny scene. I also enjoyed the different business meeting scenes in tonight's episode and how each meeting ended very successfully. One meeting with Harry & Joan and the other with Pete & Duck & Don. Both scenes were really fantastic to watch and the actors have really given their characters such great performances as always!
But my favorite moments were with Betty & Don and with Peggy & Father Gill. January Jones gave such a outstanding performance tonight. I was so glad to see Betty stand up to Don and you could tell he was lying right to her face and embarassing her at dinner, but I don't think that was really intentional. The ending with Betty telling Don not to come home was a great scene and I had a feeling it was going to happen. Both January Jones & Jon Hamm were absolutely fantastic.
It was wonderful to see Colin Hanks reprising his role as Father John Gill. I could tell he really likes Peggy alot and he's trying to help her. I think Peggy could definitely confide in him for support. I definitely feel that both of them have so much mutual repsect for each other. I have to say that both Elisabeth Moss & Colin Hankis definitely delivered such a great performance tonight and I really thought the song at the end that Father Gill was singing was a perfect way to end tonight's episode.
All in all, another success for Mad Men. Each episode in Season 2 definitely delivers such great stories, fantastic writing, and fantastic performances from our actors/actresses. I am definitely looking forward to our next episode!
September 14th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
@Tarzan: It's just odd to me and I'm sure that's my 2008 mentality creeping in!
September 14th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Ugh! I was so made at Harry when he said he no longer needed Joan to help.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
After this episode, I just found myself getting irked again about the fact that none of the women on this show were acknowledged with Emmy noms. It's really a shame.
I've been trying to find the As the World Turns episode about the coma but no luck so far…
September 14th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
@Deb #211
It’s ironic and painful. Joan just dressed Peggy down 2 episodes ago, and told her she never wanted a man’s job in a man’s world, and now, all of a sudden, she does want that. Because, hello? Everyone wants the satisfaction of being good at something and being noticed at it. Joan felt good. She didn’t want a “man’s job,†she just felt good.
And the way she said “of course†and was all fine? She was trying to tell herself she still didn’t want it. And Harry never knew.
Very good reading of Joan. We've been saying almost all season that, where during Season One Joan was serenely confident and in control, this season she's been angry, even nasty, fearful of the changes happening around her, afraid that she can't understand them or deal with them. Last week, Jane outmanuvered her on her own turf. This week is a fresh reminder that, unlike Peggy, she isn't welcome on the new turf. I agree that she's still in denial about wanting the new position. but I think it's slowly dawning on her, as it has been all season, that the world is changing around her and she doesn't know how to deal with it. The last shot is a coming to consciousness about it.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
So here's the problem with being from Ohio and moving to New Orleans…. Not only is it NEW ORLEANS (and I'm pretty sure most of you all know what being in NOLA entails) but there is an hour time change that you may forget about if you've been enjoying the French Quarter! Thank God it comes on again soon…
September 14th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
I understand the impulse, LL; during the first commercial break, I hit Wikipedia to see if Don's friend Crab Colson might be Nixon's hatchetman Charles W. Colson. (No, it turns out.)
September 14th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Joan isn't welcome, so to speak because she's "too sexy?" I'm trying to better understand….
September 14th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
What, Betty was supposed to say something complementary about the woman her husband had an affair with? I don't think so. Like others have said, I think her horror that he cheated on her was compounded by the fact that it was with someone older, and–also as others have said–she fears aging herself. Her self-worth is defined by her youth and her looks, so if that's not helping her to hold on to her husband, then what hope does she have (in her mind)? I think she has a very strong grip on reality–it's just that she has taken on the "perfect wife" role, which leaves her powerless. Nothing makes people angrier or more irrational than having very real problems, and then having them overlooked, denied, or belittled. On top of that, not being able to do anything about them. It would be enough to make anyone lose control and break a chair (or shoot some birds, or whatever else). Incidentally, I thought she broke the chair because the loose leg was another thing on Don's list that he was supposed to do, and didn't do.
And I never expected Harry to consider Joan for the job. She filled the gap, she did a good job, but now she can just get shipped back to the steno pool where she belongs. Also, I don't think she was just using that odd voice when talking to her fiance; she was also using it when she was doing some of the TV work, too. In fact, if you listen to the scene where she's filling in the new guy, she starts of talking in that high voice, and it looked like she had tears in her eyes. Then she collects herself, and you can see her going into class "Joan" mode, with the usual voice.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Joan, I think, is no more nor less welcome than Peggy, but Peggy pushed and pushed and pushed to get in, whereas Joan sort of fell in and then fell out again. If Joan doesn't push exactly as Peggy did (not the same way, but push) she'll never get in, and Joan has already said she'd never do that and doesn't want to.
For Joan to step forward, she has to acknowledge her own truth, that career advancement beyond "women's work" is actually something she wants.
And don't be surprised if I don't mine all of this for a post tomorrow.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
@ Laura Leone #217
I’ve been trying to find the As the World Turns episode about the coma but no luck so far…
I know that As The World Turns was the top rated soap back in the early 1960's (I read a lot about soaps when I was a fan of them), but I don't know what the specific story line was back then. There must be a site out there that recounts the plots. Anyone have enough mad Googling skillz to find one?
September 14th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Don and Betty seem like they're strangers. I can't get into them as a couple at all. but January Jones was great. I hope the Joan being passed over storyline goes somewhere. I don't think Harry had a clue she was interested in the job — but she was so good at it. Joan's fiance is a chauvinist pig.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
At comment #201: betty seen jimmy in the utz commercial. It reminds of bobbie which reminds betty of don's infidelity.
I have to say that Betty's a much more interesting character now that she's got the crazy.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
Oh, and Jan W, I also thought that Betty would have cut herself. I also took a long look at that oven that she's using, and reminding myself that January Jones was asked to read a lot of Sylvia Plath (and then reminding myself that they would hardly kill a lead character before episode twelve or thirteen). I'm still not sure that isn't where her character arc is heading for the season.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Tarzan, when was January Jones asked to read Sylvia Plath?
September 14th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
I'm still working on ATWT – as you might imagine, 'returns from the dead' are quite common on soap operas lol
I've found several so far on ATWT over the years, but none in 1962 yet…
September 14th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Thewaywewere, between seasons. She was told to learn to ride a horse and to read Plath.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Roberta, where did you read that info?
September 14th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
it may be the death of the naive betty draper…
September 14th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Honestly I don't remember. My sister might, or someone else? I think January Jones said it in an interview… it was months and months ago.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Peggy and the priest….I really don't get! Why is this man always in her face?
September 14th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Here it is.
http://www.tvguide.com/news/law-order-preview/080...
I googled January Jones Sylvia Plath.
September 14th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Interesting points, S. Tarzan – though I still can't quite see Betty hurting herself in such a visceral way – I would think she would take a bunch of pills over cutting herself or a head in the oven thing – then again, she does have a lot of rage right below the surface, so who knows. I doubt they would kill her off (I hope not), but I can see her making an attempt perhaps. I can't quite visualize what would happen after that, however.
September 14th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Laura… it's getting pretty visceral. She is smashing chairs.
I can't imagine they would kill her off. Don as a single dad next season? There's no context for that. But I'm sure she's thinking of it. However, taking action, throwing Don out… that is huge. And may help to pull her somewhat out of darkness.
September 14th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Night all. What an episode.
September 14th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Okay, I found this on wikipedia…
As The World Turns has the distinction of being the last regular U.S. network program broadcast for the next four days as the assassination of JFK and the transition of power to President Lyndon Johnson took center stage.
ABC and NBC cut their regular programming and let the local televisions take over.
September 14th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Don't think As the World Turns is worth the effort, Laura. But can you find that quote about January Jones and Sylvia Plath for me with your google skillz?
September 14th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
i dont think betty would kill herself, i think the reading is for point of reference on being an unhappy housewife, dealing with children, a philanderer and wondering who you really are and how have you compromised yourself by leading the life society expects of women during that time
September 14th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Hi, I'm new and I just wanted to share my take on a particular scene.
What was it about Jimmy’s dumb commercial that set off Betty?
I thought Betty was reacting to Jimmy's line in the commercial about him lying. I think he says something like "Would I lie?" Don had tried to convince Betty that Jimmy hated him and would tell her lies about him cheating. So when Betty saw the commercial and heard the line she realized Jimmy really wouldn't have lied to her.
Just my immediate take on the scene.
September 14th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Yeah, I suppose so, Roberta, good point! She is externalizing a lot more these days than she did last season. So who knows where or how it will all manifest next.
I do wonder if suicide is in Betty's realm of thinking – I can see her hearing her mother's voice, expressing disapproval of such a step.
But yes, her throwing Don out is a huge step, I agree, and I look forward to what ensues.
September 14th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Also about the broken glass…I didn't think Betty was going to cut herself, but I had this flash where she went all Piano Teacher and put the broken glass in Don't suit pockets (she was rifling though them, after all). But, yikes! Let's hope that didn't happen.
September 14th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
I'm on it, waywewere!
September 14th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
It appears that there was no "return from the dead" plotline in As the World Turns: http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/51...
September 14th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Hi Morgan! That was good!
September 14th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Good night all!
September 14th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Don and Betty's kids will get therapy in the '70's — probably from Bob Newhart!
September 14th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
I found a TV Guide interview, with Jones's comments about Plath:
TV Guide: Assuming the strike gets settled, what can you tell us about Season 2 of Mad Men?
Jones: I think it's supposed be 1962, two years later. I don't really know anything. I've only been told to read Ariel by Sylvia Plath and to take horseback riding lessons! Matt [Matthew Weiner, Mad Men's creator] likes to keep it a secret, which is really fun for the actors.
I'm pretty sure the lovely Lipp sisters put this interview, or excerpts thereof, on this site somewhere at some point as well.
September 14th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
@ Laura Leone #241
Hmm, damn, I can’t find anything about returns from the dead on ATWT before 1979…soap plotlines are really ridiculous though hhaha.
Back when I was a soap watcher, they did back-from-the-dead stories all the time. They brought back one character so often on one soap I watched that a friend and I who followed the show would always say, semi-mockingly, whenever something mysterious began to stir, "He's back!" And, sure enough, eventually we were right. LOL
September 14th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Yes, perhaps January should have kept that to herself. He could have also told her to watch "Diary of a Mad Housewife."
September 14th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Mad Man is pretty predicable. Every episode is sure to portray the white men of that era as sexist, lying, degenerate, racist, alcoholics with no real redeeming qualities. This part is simple, as the creator of the show displays all the characteristics of what Dr. Kevin MacDonald described in his book "Culture of Critique." [1]
I also find the plot-line to be rather predicable (although I do like the show), and will now make a short term, and long term prediction. My short term prediction is that the guy who works in the TV department–who admitted to not being able to talk to women very well–will either rape Joan, or rape a different girl in the office. My long term prediction is that Don Draper will jump out of his window at the Sterling-Cooper office building. This will probably be how the last episode ends, and will most likely be the last scene of this last episode. It will look exactly how Mad Men begins each week during the opening credits, but without the animation.
So those are my predictions. Of course, we'll have to wait awhile to see if my long term prediction comes true (hopefully Mad Men will last a couple years?). But I do expect my short term prediction to happen next week or the week after.
[1] http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/
September 14th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
About ten years ago a lot of the long running soaps came out with these coffee table books that covered their entire story lines, with some historical notes about what was new to the genres when, casting, issues brought up in the stories etc. I am sure ATWT has one. You might be able to check it out of the library.
BTW Jane's portrayer Peyton List was on ATWT as Lucy Snyder through her adolescents. She is prettier here though.
This was the most I ever liked Joan though. It was the first time she had an internally motivated desire. I was so angry at the men for not catching her enthusiasm. I also changed my mind about her engagement. She should not marry someone who thinks he knows what she wants who cannot notice when she is turned on by something!
Betty /January Jones owned the episode. This has been the most sympathetic I have ever found her, from the early scene with her breaking the chair to her telling Don not to come home.
I also loved Peggy and Father Gil. I cannot decide if him pushing for the confession in the office was an effective or self defeating location. On the one hand everything around reminds her of why she did what she did and the facade she has to keep up. On the other hand all of that makes it more pointed when he says that God is big enough to forgive whatever she did. She had tears in her eyes, which confirms that she cannot forgive herself. I wanted her to say something so badly.
But it was only Betty's turn. Which was good to settle for.
September 14th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Back from the dead – - was there ever a worse one than Bobby's on Dallas?
September 14th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
@the waywewere @266
Back from the dead – - was there ever a worse one than Bobby’s on Dallas?
That was one of the funniest epsiodes ever on TV. I remember sitting there bursting into laughter every few minutes, not because of anything specific happening, but saying "I can't believe they're actually doing this!" We were in hysterics.
September 14th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Agreed, Melville, and we think TV is bad now!
September 14th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
@Morgan #247
I thought Betty was reacting to Jimmy’s line in the commercial about him lying. I think he says something like “Would I lie?†Don had tried to convince Betty that Jimmy hated him and would tell her lies about him cheating. So when Betty saw the commercial and heard the line she realized Jimmy really wouldn’t have lied to her.
I can't remember the exact line, either, but you're right, it was something that conveyed the idea "would I lie."
September 14th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Here's the TV Guide Interview where she made that comment.
September 14th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Zoot Horn Rolo, you show no real insight into the show, your complaint about the poor, beleaguered white males is superficial and easily disproven. And for evidence, you use MacDonald, a professor of the pseudo-science of evolutionary psychology and a writer of anti-Semitic books who has testified on behalf of a Holocaust denier?
You're off to a great start here.
September 14th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Yes, I think Zoot's popularity on this board is pretty "predicable."
September 14th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Is the show still planning on another 2-year jump next season, to 1964? If it does that, there'll be many events in 1963 (JFK assassination, Birmingham Church bombing) that may not be tackled. I'm not sure how I'll like that….
September 14th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
I don't think that that's been set in stone yet. From interviews, I get the sense that MW doesn't make firm plans about future seasons.
September 14th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Enjoy, everyone. I’ll be with you in spirit …
September 14th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
I guess no one caught or understood my ealier post. I feel that the reference to ATWT will become important for the advertisers because during the showing of ATWT they had reports on Kennedy and the assissination.
It was interrupted so only some of the ads were shown. However on NBC and ABC all of the ads were cut.
Again-"As The World Turns has the distinction of being the last regular U.S. network program broadcast for the next four days as the assassination of JFK and the transition of power to President Lyndon Johnson took center stage."
IMO, That's why they made the reference. It may not match up to what Joan was talking about. More viewers because of an amazing? show, but it turns out later the ads will be not seen at all or mixed up with an assassination.
September 14th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
I don't think that lines up, Ms. G., because Joan referenced a "summer special," although it's a clever idea.
It may be that we are forming a relationship with ATWT that will be significant during the Kennedy assassination, though.
September 14th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
since i cannot drink i say go for the pomegranate liquer.
September 14th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
the next time i can have a drink will be for my birthday in february – and i will enjoy it!
so in the meantime, one for you, then one for me! haha
September 14th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Stop, you are making me thirsty!
September 14th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
This is amazingly random but I’d recommend, to all Mad Men fans, the novel “Murder Must Advertise” by Dorothy Sayers. It’s a classic Lord Peter Wimsey mystery set in the 1930s. Although it’s *way* different than MM when it comes to theme/characters/style, it’s interesting to compare the two advertising worlds thirty years apart and a continent apart, to see how advertising changed across time and cultures.
Thanks, Lipps, for a *super* blog!
September 14th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Popcorn is my drink of choice for this evening.
September 14th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
ben and jerry’s phish food is my vice! with my little girl i would accompany MM with Cinnamon Dulce Leche, now with the little boy, phish food….yummy
September 14th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
Hee! Ken.
September 14th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
*sends out for ben & jerrys*
Love Harry’s exit march!
September 14th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
LOL Peggy’s brother-in-law wants to read the sequel to Moby Dick.
Should I get to work on it?
September 14th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
uh-oh, mommy’s melting down.
September 14th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
lol Karl
September 14th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
I started doing the scarf on the bag thing after seeing it in the September Vogue.
September 14th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Go, Joanie, go!!
September 14th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Storyline for Joan!
September 14th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Don, Don, what are you doing? Little Bobby’s just sitting there, and you’re getting up to get yourself to refill the guests’ drinks?
September 14th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
Duck: “So, do you like baseball, Bobby?”
I could not help but think of Peter Graves and gladiator movies.
September 14th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Somehow I get idea that the prospect of her husband manipulating her as part of his job isn’t making Betty happy.
September 14th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Looks like Mrs. Crab is having cocktail time with Mad Men as well as we are . . . .
September 14th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Crab and Duck—could be the main course.
Love, love, love Betty’s dress at dinner.
Why the heck did she break the chair? Frustration with her hubby?
Love the plastic on Anita’s couch. LOL!
September 14th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
so Don was the one that had to sit in the plain kitchen chair, right?
September 14th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Don’s just so nice to look at but kinda boring when in “good” mode!
September 14th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Looks like Crab’s wife is a bit of a lush. Wonder if this is going to mean something later in the episode.
September 14th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
LOL, Kay. I don’t ever think Don is boring.
September 14th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
I don’t think Joan will take well to oppression.
September 14th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Hi Laura, glad you’re back!
September 14th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Rachel’s cufflinks?
September 14th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
The priest creeps me out to no end! I’ve no idea why….
September 14th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Oh lord Harry you’ve given Joan a taste for corporate blood.
You’ve doomed everyone
September 14th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
HOLY!
September 14th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
Hippie priest?
September 14th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
on her shoulder? her bra strap
September 14th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Am I the only one who thought Father Gil was going for his stash in the guitar case, and would roll a joint all Val from 90210-style?
September 14th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
Her bra strap (or dress strap) was cutting into her skin – it could show she’s been gaining weight, or (more symbolically) be a physical mark of how she’s constrained by her career.
September 14th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
OMG! The Pete Smackdown might be happening sooner than I thought! Next week looks so good!
September 14th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
I actually thought it was going to be something more insidious that he would take from the case, I don’t know what exactly. Maybe something of Peggy’s.
September 14th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
The teaser is not up at AMC, and Karl is not pleased.
September 14th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
OK, I don’t get the significance of having a shot of Joan’s bra strap digging into her shoulders. Could someone ‘splain it to me.
What was it about Jimmy’s dumb commercial that set off Betty?
I’m kind of at a loss about those 2 scenes.
By the way, I had the old Peter, Paul, and Mary album with “Early in the Morning,” the song Father Gill was singing at the end that led into the finale song.
September 14th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
The apron is as gorgeous as the dress.
I still think that Sally should have her own show.
September 14th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
I would definitely need some of those foundational garments.
September 14th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Betty’s grandmother from Germany – Hofstadt – nice continuity there.
September 14th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
My online cable guide says that “Six Month Leave” airs on 9/21. But… those things are sometimes wrong.
September 14th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
The AMC site says:
Episode 9 “Six Month Leave” Airs Sun., Sept. 29 @ 10PM | 9C
September 14th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Next week are the EMMYs. Plus it follows a pattern. Last year we got a rerun right before episode 10, as well. Episode 9, Betty goes crazy, the following week is a rerun, then episode 10.
September 14th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
Jackie Says: So Joan doesn’t want Peggy’s job, but she’s not averse to a position that uses her talents beyond office manager. It’s not as easy as you think, Joan.
I think Joan’s exact statement was “I never wanted your job”. Which sounds dismissive, but I thought in truth, it genuinely never occured to Joan to want a job like Peggy’s. And now that she sees Peggy going at it and her power in the office starting to wane, well…
September 14th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
It sounds like you’re all right. I hope so… I want to watch Jon Hamm’s acceptance speech.
September 14th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
Maybe they just asked JJ to read SP for the period-correct crazy and fucking angry reasons, as opposed for the suicide reason?
September 14th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
Sure, Heather. I’m not committed to that as a prediction. It’s little more than a suspicion at this point.
September 14th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
No, Sylvia Plath is suicide stuff for sure.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:01 am
But they would never let that info out if they were planning it for Betty. Betty and Sylvia Palth — couldn’t be more different. Sylvia Plath was a brilliant, intellectual misplaced homemaker. Betty can’t compare in any way.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:01 am
Sylvia Plath did committ suicide, because she was extremely unhappy – her marriage to Hughes was extremely tumultous, he cheated on her and they seperated from each other in 61 or 62. she moved with her kids and then killed herself. the iron giant is a short story hughes wrote for the kids to help cope with the loss of their mother
September 15th, 2008 at 12:02 am
Hmm, damn, I can’t find anything about returns from the dead on ATWT before 1979…soap plotlines are really ridiculous though hhaha.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:08 am
Found it:
TV Guide: Assuming the strike gets settled, what can you tell us about Season 2 of Mad Men?
Jones: I think it’s supposed be 1962, two years later. I don’t really know anything. I’ve only been told to read Ariel by Sylvia Plath and to take horseback riding lessons! Matt [Matthew Weiner, Mad Men's creator] likes to keep it a secret, which is really fun for the actors.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:09 am
What I found as well, Deborah, about ATWT….well, not so worth it.
And sorry, waywewere and I jinxed each other about the January interview…
September 15th, 2008 at 12:09 am
In terms of Betty & Sylvia Plath, if you search here, on the Basket, for interviews with January Jones sometime between April and the season premiere, you’ll find it. I think it was in TV Guide.
I don’t remember if I’d started Mad News then, or if it was an indivdual post.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:10 am
LOL @ Ron!
It’s been lovely, all, nighty night! See you again soon.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:10 am
It’s here, Deborah.
http://madmenmad.wordpress.com/tag/january-jones/
September 15th, 2008 at 12:11 am
^the February 8, 2008 post.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:19 am
“I also find the plot-line to be rather predicable (although I do like the show), and will now make a short term, and long term prediction. My short term prediction is that the guy who works in the TV department–who admitted to not being able to talk to women very well–will either rape Joan, or rape a different girl in the office.”
I’d also consider a lot of shows “predictable” if I considered the first, dumbest thing possible to pop in my head was a ‘prediction’.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:41 am
Wow, Zoot Horn Rolo, I “predict” that you are an asshat!
September 15th, 2008 at 12:43 am
Thanks, Tarzan!
September 15th, 2008 at 1:10 am
Oh, it just occurred to me to wonder about all the talk about people not waking up from comas. Was that another meta-comment? Is someone going to / not going to “wake up”? Was it about how the TV work was “waking up” Joan? Just a thought.
September 15th, 2008 at 1:24 am
January Jones mentioned the Sylvia Plath thing in at least one of the season 1 commentaries. I don’t have access to those right now, but I’m 98% sure of it.
September 15th, 2008 at 1:59 am
OH MY GOD. Was I seeing and hearing things? Did Betty actually kick Don out of the house?? Oh my God! Wow!
September 15th, 2008 at 2:11 am
I hate Don. I hate him more than Roger or any of the other guys who cheat on their wives because I want him to be good. I know there are some people who like bad Don, but I can’t stand him.
There have been twenty episodes of Betty supporting and being there for her husband; I’m so glad she finally confronted him. I would’ve ripped his head off!
If he doesn’t love Betty, than they should divorce and he can live it up in the city. If he does, he needs to stop being an inconsiderate jackass.
Rant over.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:31 am
Aw, poor Joan. She was really good at that job, plus she worked well with the clients. Fuckin’ Harry. That dweeb he hired is going to be in way over his head.
And Betty. As much as she annoys me, I was proud of her for finally confronting Don. JJ knocked it out of the park this episode. She told Don not to come home, and she didn’t impose a time frame on it. She didn’t say “don’t come home tonight,” she said “don’t come home.” Period. As in ever. Maybe that’s what the episode titled “Six Months Leave” refers to — a trial separation for Don and Betty? Interestingly, she did find evidence of Don being with another woman — the Yahtzee card, with the “What do women want” line from Right Guard. That came from Midge’s place. Is it going to dawn on Betty that maybe they don’t have a Yahtzee game? Will she finally notice the cufflinks that Rachel gave him as well?
And, finally, do they only have two bedrooms in that big-ass house?
September 15th, 2008 at 2:55 am
Possible upside for Joan; Maybe she decides she wants to enter the boys world after all! This may lead to a scene where she needs the advise of Peggy! If she were assertive enough, I would think she could persuade Harry, maybe if she hints how much more the clients would rather see her than dweeb-boy, in a combination that is both sexist and liberating for Joan all at once. Harry, though, may defer on this point to Roger…and that’s when the conflicts could get very interesting….
Just speculating, but Joan’s got more of a future than I had feared she had up to now. Just from the scene with the lame fiance, Joan’s never going to be a bonbon-eating Betty anyway.
September 15th, 2008 at 3:28 am
Ms. Lipp,
whether you think evolutionary psychology is a legitimate science or not, is irrelevant. The fact is, it does exist, and is a field of study available within many universities. Its no surprise that you call Dr. MacDonald’s work “anti-Semitic.” Many times when people lack the ability to generate any sort argument, they rely on slander to make up for this (Walt and Mearsheimer seen similar slander). I would challenge the readers of this blog to read Dr. MacDonald’s work themselves, and judge whether or not my earlier comments are accurate. Finally, Dr. MacDonald testified at David Irving’s trial to describe his own experiences with people trying to deny his right to free speech. I do appreciate your work on paganism though.
Thanks,
ZHR
September 15th, 2008 at 3:56 am
So, Kev…er, I mean “Zoot Horn Rolo”…are you just trying to sell your books or what? Because I don’t think the crowd here is really your…uh, I mean “his”…target audience.
September 15th, 2008 at 4:25 am
Good episode. I felt for Betty. Earlier she thought that she and Don were working together and that would mean that he included her in his life and that would include her possible contribution to his work life. Jimmy pointed out that she was on the sidelines just like he is, there to serve the partner but not included and cheated on to boot. Seeing Jimmy reminded her of her embarrasement at the party and not being included and she felt as silly as Jimmy looked with he mouth full of nuts, looking the fool (who cares he's well paid for it) for all to see and laugh at.
Father Gill at the end of the ep shedding his collar was a reminder that he wasn't always a priest, where that's going I don't know.
I hope that Joan gets even with that insensitive jerk Harry.
September 15th, 2008 at 5:25 am
Thanks, 212 Ms. Golightly! I had thought that Don had convinced Betty to let sleeping dogs lie (lay?) b/c that is what Betty also wants and needs to do, then the commercial and bam. Although Betty knew better inside than to believe Don. I actually got up, fired up the computer just to ask that question but I was too sleepy to stay with it!
September 15th, 2008 at 9:28 am
Zoot Horn Rollo, since you base your “argument” on a cited source, discussing the reputation of that source is a legitimate argument. I also addressed the specifics of your complaint, which you did not answer, merely accused me of slander, which does little except make you look foolish. (Perhaps you should look up the word.)
I’ll be more clear. Complaints that the poor, put upon white male has it rough have, in general, no interest to me, and have no application to this show. There are too few people of color on the show to compare whites with non-whites, but in comparing men with women, we can easily see that every single character on the show has flaws and good points, moments of decency and moments of cruelty. That you see this as oppressive towards the males but do not mention the women shows that you have very specific blinders on, which weaken your ability to interpret what you’re seeing.
Your predictions are lame. People have been talking about your series finale prediction for over a year. It’s all over the Internet. The idea is not only unoriginal, it’s stupid; Don is the least suicidal person possible; his drive to survive and thrive in the face of total despair is awe-inspiring.
As to Warren being a rapist, wow, are you watching the same show I watch? The one with subtlety and unspoken intentions, where rage is expressed with a push and a broken chair, and agony is communicated by sitting, immobile, at a train stop? Perhaps the mention of As the World Turns last night inspired you overmuch.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:11 am
I think I see a tie-in between the Harry-Joan plot and Betty’s rage at the Jimmy Barrett commercial in last night’s episode. Remember how Harry got in trouble because the Maytag “agitator” commercial appeared during the show with a communist agitator? That led to him explaining to Joan what she needed to look for while reading the scripts–don’t have a commercial for Gorton’s fish sticks appear during a show where a kid pushes his dinner away, etc. Well, Betty was perched on the sofa, flipping through a magazine while the kids were watching a sitcom. We have a shot of the television screen where the little boy character is complaining that his girlfriend is seeing another boy behind his back. HIs father asks how he knows, and he says something along the line of, “I saw her at the soda shop and there was another boy at the end of MY straw.” Canned laughter. Then the Jimmy Barrett–Utz commercial. An innocuous combo for most people, but a childish reference to infidelity combined with Barrett, the bearer of bad news, is what I think set Betty off.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Good insight, enlightenmentgirl, I agree.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:13 am
I still have to rewatch, but I’m not convinced that was Joan’s fiance. I have to go back and watch E1 to check if it’s the same dude that was pawing her. She didn’t get up from the couch and greet him, no physical affection, she didn’t cook for him (Chinese takeout?), he’s waaaay too young for her. I think that was her brother. I won’t believe there’s really a finace until I see her in a wedding dress at an altar saying “I do.”
Would Joan really have a sudden ambition at work if she were engaged? She used to love the power of her job as office manager. Now, she’s engaged to be married to a doctor, but feeling small? It doesn’t add up.
I love Betty getting all up in Don’s face. And while she’s yelling at him and I think he’s such a scumbag liar, I’m also noting how hot he is. I shake my fist at you, show!
Father Gill is a tool.
Note to Deborah: don’t feed the trolls.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:31 am
To put the point about the strap slightly differently, the strap marks represent the pain that comes from supporting a weight all day. Joan is a support staffer whose sole job is to make sure the men in the office can do the real work. This burden is proving increasingly painful to her, which helps explain why she hates Peggy so much. Peggy made it out.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:34 am
Don Draper is a lying man-ho, remains sexy while doing so! Hee!
I seriously thought Betty was gonna sniff his crotch, just as one final attempt at finding proof!
September 15th, 2008 at 11:36 am
In the scene in which Betty breaks the glass, did she notice something under the beside table? To me it looked like she was picking up glass and saw something–maybe some evidence that Don was hiding.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:51 am
That Yahtzee card could be incriminating. If she were to pencil over the top where the names go, she might find that Midge’s name is etched on it.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
And just what about the Rachel cufflinks as Hull and other’s mentioned? Why didn’t Betty recognize there were “strange” cufflinks in Don’s, I don’t know, cufflink case? Then again, they lay right on the nightstand and she didn’t notice….Hmm….
September 15th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
That Yahtzee card incriminates Don’s cluelessness about what Betty wants–she wants to get closer to him, but he needs to lay off the lying first.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
None of that is evidence, guys. Cufflinks are somethings Don might have bought himself. Yahtzee is a game Don might have played with anyone. “Evidence” is lipstick, perfume, something else very explicitly feminine, or a hotel receipt, or something like that. Yahtzee played with Midge or cufflinks are just more suspicions, not proof.
DB, I let myself go a little. Sometimes I’m such a little devil.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Speaking of hotels, why didn’t Don just crash at a hotel? He’s well-heeled and could afford it! Guess it was for deep drama that he spent the night at SC….
September 15th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Deb: just don’t call up what you can’t put down.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
#302 Free beer!
September 15th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
With a name like Olson, Peggy is probably Swedish. So why is she going to a Catholic church?
September 15th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
We don’t really know Peggy’s family tree. Her last name speaks to bing at least part Scandinavian, but we don’t know the rest. Also, her mother lack of accent implies at least one side of her family has been in America for a while.
September 15th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Kay, I think he was just too shocked and depressed. There’s a certain pleasure in a hotel room. I think it expressed how frozen he felt; he literally couldn’t move.
bjk, the obvious answer is that these Olsons aren’t Swedish.
September 15th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
OK, I have to say that last night’s episode was extremely thought provoking. i personally think it was one of the best episodes and I would predict that some of next years Emmys come from this one. JJ was pheom and you could see her downward spiral. Kudo’s to her for growing a pair.
Elizabeth’s Peggy made me feel so sad. She still seems so alone and Father Gil is trying so hard to reach her. I have to ask, is anyone else getting the physical attraction between these two, or is Father Gil that assexual? Is she just a pet project? I am not Catholic and totally hate that these people are not allowed to fall in love and have a real life (Don’t hate on me) but I kinda hope Father Gil falls in love with her (OK, now God can strike me down).
Joan, Oh the total array of emotions that crossed her face when Harry told her he didn’t need her any more just broke my heart. He is such a ditz at times. Joan was excellent at that job. It is sad that she can’t see there is a life other than housewife. Sweet looking future hubby though. Is he the same guy as the 1st episode, I think they got another actor. Also are they living together? Even engaged, I think that was a total NO NO back then.
I really look forward to Peggy tearing Pete a new asshole next week! Maybe Pete let it slip they had a thing to one of the guys. I am anxious to see that sotryline progress.
September 15th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
We don’t see Peggy’s dad, right? He’s supposed to be sick or something. I bet he’s the Swede and her mother is the Catholic. That may explain the resistance to Catholicism.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
He is dead. That is kinda what I got. Remember Peggy’s mom asked her to light a candle for him?
September 15th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
As much as I am a fan of the show, I agree with one of the bloggers above that this week’s episode was predictable and at times a bit boring. In fact, I’m beginning to get bored with the last few episodes. Do all of the characters have to be so depressed and struggling to find happiness? And, any formidable shockers in the storyline aren’t shocking enough for me. I don’t know, but I’ve been looking for something more in the unfolding drama. For instance, Betty could have found a hotel receipt and investigated it, instead, she finds nothing and that left nothing for the viewer as well. Just a whole lot of episode time spent searching, lolling around the house thinking and well, Betty being her sad self. What did we get as the big action at the end? Betty tells Don not to come home. Big deal. I bet she brings him back as women did back in those days when they didn’t have a career and depended upon their husband’s income. And, the way the storyline is heading with the priest and Peggy we are either heading into a scene where she confesses to the priest about her pregnancy and son and she gets help from him and and reclaims her son, or the two of them end up having an affair. So, bring it on already rather than dragging this whole relationship out with boring details such as work on a dance poster (boring). Give us some more juicy stuff that we can sink our minds into and think about all week. Season one episodes did that for me but Season Two isn’t. Sorry.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
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September 15th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Here is my take on A Night To Remember. Sorry for the length…
I definitely felt that the them of this show is one of monumental realizations and awakenings amongst Betty, Joan and Peggy. Each woman had a significant moment that made them face something they have not wanted to confront. The dinner party that Betty plans, the meeting that Peggy has with the church ladies regarding her copy for the CYO dance, and Joan taking on work that is more challenging and outside her element.
Joan initially approaches Harry as the Office Manager, trying to resolve what seems to be a staffing problem. As Harry explains the nature of the job, it piques her interest, especially since television is such a new media that is enthralling to young Americans of the time. I don’t she realized how much she would like the nature of the job until she really delved into it. Initially, it just seemed like she was doing her part as support staff. It is during this episode that we get to see Joan at home which I personally enjoyed. It was interesting to see her interaction with her fiancée and see how her personal life functions. Given the gender roles of the time, we see that Joan is the one that has brought work home and her fiancée is the one that has procured dinner. She also makes it seem to him that reading scripts is part of her job to which he responds, “I thought you walked around with people staring at you.†She doesn’t exactly fit the role of the domestic diva and it made me wonder, will she truly be happy just managing a home? Joan also gets her first taste of interacting with clients on a more equal ground. She is introduced as the Broadcast Operations person and she sells a spot for As the World Turns. This is shift for her from being eye-candy to being taken seriously as a knowledgeable professional. I felt like she finally realized her true potential and moreover, able to empathize with Peggy’s ambition. It was a slap in the face to walk into Harry’s office to see the new employee take on work she wanted and worse, to have to train him. As the viewer, we see the disparity between men and women in the work place because we know what Roger has offered this person as pay for the Broadcast Operations job. The last shot of Joan shows the mark on her shoulder from the bra strap. A physical representation of the weight she carries everyday and the constraints of her role.
Also, in this episode we see more interaction between Peggy and Father Gil. Father Gil has noticed that she doesn’t take communion and tried to probe as to why and wonders why she alienates herself. So far we only know of Peggy’s pregnancy and stay at the mental hospital. As viewers we also know who the father of the child is and how Don has been of help to her during this time. In the 14 month time frame, she continues to work hard and solidify her place amongst the men as their equal. But this has come at a cost – Peggy has had to numb an incredibly traumatic experience and has denied herself confronting what really happened. She really did take Don’s advice. But this experience has also placed a wedge between her and her family to a certain extent and it has marred her view of participating her church. Father Gil coaxes her to do some pro bone work for the church and she agrees. As she presents her copy, we see that she is so adamant about knowing what she is talking about when selling the pitch for the CYO. Her comment to Father Gil, “You’re supposed to tell them to trust me, that’s your job, to make them listen to you.†is an insight to her insecurity of how people view her and how serious they take her. How trustworthy is she as a role-model to the youth of her community? We don’t really know what the local speculation has been about her absence, but I don’t think it’s too much of stretch to say that tongues have been wagging and her own guilt about the pregnancy is starting to surface. Father Gil continues to try and probe Peggy for the truth about her situation and to try to understand Anita’s confession. He may have hard time reconciling that Peggy is the cold, unfeeling, and selfish person that Anita made her out to be. The conversation that ensues between them by the copy machine leaves her shaken and we see her in the bathtub, clearly upset and also a metaphor for a deep cleansing…..
Joan’s line, “Someone we think is dead, is really not†stuck with me because the main story line revolves around what leads Betty to confront Don regarding his affair with Bobbi Barrett. For a major part of the series Betty Draper is portrayed as a porcelain doll, a woman with very little depth of feeling. With the progression of this season, we see how she is manifesting her inward turmoil.
This is a night to remember for Betty because she realizes to what extent she is just an accessory to her husband. She spent the better part of a week concentrating on pulling off an exceptional dinner party for his partners. Every detail was thought of on her part and special attention was placed on the menu to showcase her sense of style and worldliness. She fell right into Don’s marketing scheme without even realizing as she made the Heinekein purchase how it was targeting her. As Duck put it, the target group is “well-off, educated and plenty of time to shop. She wants to know she is the perfect hostess and the perfect wife.â€
You can see her awkwardness at the dinner table as it becomes apparent that she had no idea of the firm’s client and her humiliation when she confronts Don and tells him, “It must be so funny, being in on it. You never mean it; you just do whatever you want.†As he continues to deny his lies and behavior, she brings up Bobbi Barrett. At first I didn’t understand why she was so upset about Bobbi’s age, but upon further reflection, it dawned on me that she must wonder her worth as a wife and her appeal as a woman if Don is cheating on a woman is clearly older than her and lacks her polished, educated demeanor. All Don does throughout her confrontation, her probing, her emotional breakdown is to deny and lie. Yet he has the gall to tell his client, “Why would I lie, we are the ones that have to deliver.â€
Some previous posts have mentioned that the Utz has Jimmy Barrett saying and implying that he isn’t a liar. That is not what he said. The commercial starts off with him saying, “Imagine my horror when a night on the town turned ugly. This is a nice place, nice people…†and continues on with him saying, “Am I crazy, I don’t think so.†In one scene you have Don claiming that he isn’t a liar and in the next, Jimmy claiming that he isn’t crazy, the latter of which resonates with Betty’s feeling of inadequacy and wondering if she is crazy and over-reacting when she doesn’t have concrete evidence to prove Don wrong. The commercial begins by echoing her sentiment of the night Jimmy reveals the affair and ends by echoing how she feels about her entire situation with Don. Is she crazy, I sure don’t think so, and found it empowering that she tells Don, “Don’t come home, I don’t want to see you.â€
For me, this heralded the death of the naive Betty Draper who placed her husband on a pedestal, an awakening to the reality of the situation. I never thought there were allusions to her wanting to kill herself. Even as she breaks the chair, I didn’t see it as a person going crazy. She breaks the chair because its faulty and no longer usable, it is time to get rid of it. A person in a rage would have broken the chair with more aggression, the whole thing seemed to be done out of practicality.
There has been mention of Sylvia Plath and that prompted some thought to a Plath-Betty connection and why would January Jones be told to read Ariel. My recollections, from my English major days, are that Plath committed suicide due to her history with mental illness, exacerbated by a tumultuous and difficult marriage to a man who cheated on her. This period of her life happened during the early sixties. Months after separating from Hughes, she committed suicide. I still think the reading is for point of reference on being an unhappy housewife, dealing with children, a philanderer and wondering who you really are and how have you compromised yourself by leading the life society expects of women during that time period. A little more on Plath; Ariel was published in 1965, a couple years after her death. This work was a shift from her earlier poetry as it is more personal and considered confessional poetry. The publication of this work had a dramatic effect upon the literary world due its autobiographical nature and its theme of mental illness. Most of the poems date from the last few weeks of her life.
In essence, I felt that this episode is thought provoking and very layered and did not disappoint me. To have obvious, quick juicy stuff revealed in one shot undermines the character development and for me, would make it an uninteresting night-time soap. I want to see the depth revealed in a subtle and thought provoking manner, I like how storylines are revealed in a manner that makes viewers ponder and engage in an intelligent discourse.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Why would a new pair of cufflinks cause suspicion? After all, when Rachel gave him that pair, the pair he was wearing kept falling out. He could have just as easily bought a new pair for himself.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Accidently hit the keyboard and that happened. I don’t want it to be too obvious. I like that you have to read between the line and predict.
The thing with Joan was spot on about how these ladies were dealt with at the time.
The thing with Betty, is that you wanted her to find something and was frustrated along with her when she didn’t find anything, but know he has to be lying.
Peggy, yes I want more in her storyline and I want more Father Gil. But I am tired of her and Pete tap dancing around everythign and I really want to see them have some emotion and get to the bottom of things. But I am patient.
That is the things with these kind of shows. It is to build and maybe turn a direction we didn’t expect. A lot can still happen that we don’t know about. If I want a beginning, middle and end, I will watch a movie. Also this will be great on DVD when we have it all.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
@Elle: Definitely Jan Jones kicked ass last night! Furthermore, she and all the other women on the show were “jerked” Emmy nods this year!
September 15th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
I want to add that without a woman co-writer and a woman director, that bra strap scene could not have been possible. Being ripped up by our undergarments is just not something men know about us.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
I am a big “The Office” Fan. The entire first season (which was like 6 episodes) I was frustrated by Jim and Pam. The second season got so monotonous for me at times because I was tired of waiting for Jim and Pam to get together. We all knew it would happen, it was predictable. But it was hard waiting. We waiting through 2 whole seasons. Then the writers rewarded us with “Casino Night” which had the best and most worthy ending. Loved it. Same happened with the next season when they threw Karen into the mix and switch tables on Jim and Pam. But the show would not have been as successful had they just got them together quickly. We watched their history.
MadMen is slow and concise. We are watching their history and their evolving. Peggy went from being this naive girl to the tragic woman. We sit and hope for real happiness for her. But we also watch her journey. This is what keeps show on the air longer.
It worked for Sopranos, Friends, MASH, etc. Really great shows do not give it all up, as well as bring more to the story. All the little boring parts are part of it.
Anybody get me on this? Or am I rambling?
September 15th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
True Deborah! That statement makes me have to digress, I don’t know if anyone watched the Chanel movie this week. (Oscar Great Shirley McClaine could of at least learned a French accent)
But one of the things that CoCo Chanel always emphasised what that she was a Woman dressing women the way they wanted to be dressed, not a Man dressing women the way they thought women wanted to be dressed.
This show is all about women wanting things, and men thinking what women want something else. We know in the future that this is going to change big time.
Duck said in that one scene, “She wants to be the perfect housewife”, All I could think about was, none of you men seem to know what the hell any of these women really want.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Re: #308 was that the same apartment Joan was in from S1? It looked like it could have been, but I guess Carol moved out? We saw Joan getting ready for work alone and undressing alone so I don’t think he lives there.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
To go back to Betty and her obsession with youth and beauty, did anyone else find it odd that she seemed poud of Sally for being cast as Piglet? I would have thought that she would take that as the perfect time to talk with her daughter about “not being stout” and “hiding the brushstrokes.” Or is Betty actually growing up a bit? Maybe the fact that she is facing a deteriorating marriage proves to her that there are more important things than waist size.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
@Elle: That Chanel movie aired right before MM came on! I usually get bored with the Lifetime Network’s films but that was a good one!
I digress….
Ya know, as good as MM is at telling stories, I’m greedy! And want to see more points-of-view, now! I want more women’s stories to be told!
September 15th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
I did really like this epi BUT I have a problem with the whole Betty/Don “don’t come home” storyline — as we know MW wrote for the Sopranos and for me, the most exaggerated, unrealistic plotline in that show was Tony and Carm’s separation (for those who watched it, it was similar to MM in that some of Edie Falco’s most emotional and raw acting was around this plot, just as this showcased Betty’s character and JJ’s abilities as an actress) but I do not buy it even moreso in MM because of the time period, and because of Betty and Don’s relationship in general.
I do hope they don’t make this into an actual separation — certainly fighting and “don’t come home tonight” –but for Betty to suddenly act on her feelings in such a definite way, to me, was not consistent with anything in the show so far.
September 15th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
“Father Gil continues to try and probe Peggy for the truth about her situation and to try to understand Anita’s confession. He may have hard time reconciling that Peggy is the cold, unfeeling, and selfish person that Anita made her out to be. The conversation that ensues between them by the copy machine leaves her shaken and we see her in the bathtub, clearly upset and also a metaphor for a deep cleansing…..”
I wish he would not do this. I honestly do. I understand that he wants to help Peggy, but she has not asked for his help. Nor do I believe that he has the right – regardless of whether he is her priest or not – to try to force her to confess. I feel that he was being out of line.
September 15th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
i agree its out of line for him as a priest do that – but his interest seems to be more personally motivated and he is using his position as an in. thats how i read and doesnt mean that i agree with his approach.
September 15th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
I agree with you, Kay. For the first time, I got really impatient this week when Carla was dismissed from the action after the briefest of all scenes, in the Draper home — though of course she’d been instrumental in helping Betty pull that whole “around the world” dinner together.
I actually said, “Hey, wait a minute!”, when Carla walked out.
But then Betty started speaking up to Don, which was very welcome. I like how she holds her head up and enunciates when she is angry with him. “You embarrassed me. You EMBARRASSED me.”
You go, angry little girl.
I think you’re right, miamimam. I think seeing Jimmy’s commercial shook something loose in Betty. Those lines he speaks in the ad … I had ignored them until you reminded me of them.
Jimmy really is Betty’s truth-teller, isn’t he? Whether she wants him to be or not.
I agree with Ellelque: I am enjoying the pacing of all the stories here. This is the way real life moves, IMO. As for this week’s episode, I enjoyed it more than any others this season: mostly for Betty’s rage finally finding its way out. When she busted up that chair, I knew we were all in for it. Ms. Jones did not disappoint me.
Poor Don, though. Banned from his own home, in the office late at night, alone with his beer? I work late quite a bit. If that man worked in my building, he would not have been alone for long …
September 15th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
@Anne: How ya doin’ Kiddo? Good, I hope!
Don will overcome this! He will! And he’s a slick, spiteful bastard! Unfunny Comic will pay for destroying Don’s “dream” life! I’ve no idea when we’ll see it or if it’ll be mentioned off-screen, but Don will exact revenge!
September 15th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
This show is all about women wanting things, and men thinking what women want something else. We know in the future that this is going to change big time.
Oh, of course! The note on the Yahtzee score wasn’t random; Betty was finding Don still not knowing “what women want.” It was thematically significant.
To go back to Betty and her obsession with youth and beauty, did anyone else find it odd that she seemed poud of Sally for being cast as Piglet?
I don’t think there are any “thin” parts in Winnie the Pooh, ya know?
September 15th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
The ATWT coma reference is perfect.
There are characters starting to ‘awaken’ and be aware of the actual situations they are living within.
…”can someone wake up from a coma and speak with a different accent?”
Can you wake up to your situation and change what you are willing to accept?
Can you leave the dream world of illusions of how and what you are living?
Just after Betty is awaken by her daughter asking if she is alright [she is napping on Don's side of the bed], she stands up from the bed and steps on the wine glass, breaking it.
Cinderella your glass slipper has broken.
Betty picks a piece of broken glass from her foot, there’s blood. She picks up some of the broken glass.
Yes, waking up is painful Cinderella.
September 15th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
After all that the phenomenal acting this week by female actors, who clearly make the show what it is just as much as John Hamm and the other men, I couldn’t help but getting slowly angry at the fact they were all passed over for Emmy nods, just like Joan . . . . anyone else feel this way?
September 15th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
I agree that Father Gil was out of line. Mostly because he was in HER office in HER job on a work day, while she was doing him a favor. It was a wrong place, wrong time scenerio. Then upsets her and leaves her to finish her work day.
That kind of conversation begs for a much more intimate setting and time.
September 15th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
miamimami, loved your (lengthy yet erudite) post!
My only quibble is to offer a different interpretation of the pro bono CYO project – Peggy is frustrated ’cause she’s dealing with amateurs and (worse) people who don’t understand that the meter’s running here.
Pro bono clients don’t usually get to haggle over the concept – they’re not paying for it; you’re doing it out of the kindness of your own heart. So you don’t really want to waste a whole lot of time pitching it or defending it; certainly not changing it (particularly when your “clients” – in this case, the church ladies – really have no idea what they’re talking about). It’s free creative development they’re getting. Either take it or leave it, but don’t haggle with me about your “vision” unless you’re willing to pay by the hour.
Same goes for her interaction right afterwards with Father Gil – Peggy is treating him like her AE – “look dude, I don’t mind helping out here, but it’s your job to make sure this gets sold properly. And losing any hint of a backbone when changes are requested…umm…doesn’t really help.”
That’s how I saw it, at least – a bit of inside baseball for the agency folk the creators presume faithfully watch. It also helps cement Peggy’s role as a “legit” creative – it puts her occupational sensibilities on display. Miss Merriweather’s Typing School (or wherever she came from) is long in the rearview – she is a bona fide creative now, complete with talent, perspective (i.e., don’t waste too much time on freebie clients) and ego.
In short, more evidence that she has arrived as a creative professional.
There’s plenty of inside baseball on this show – my favorite is Roger (in Season One) explaining to Pete how they saved his butt (i.e., lacked the juice to get him fired). Only a legit agency Jedi could spin that story properly without tipping to Pete that he’s (sorta) bulletproof, and Roger pulls it off. (I know, “Pete is bulletproof” gets disabused by YodaBert toward the end of Season One, but at the time… Roger and Don learn they’re not quite as in charge as they thought…)
Sorry for responding with a tome of my own. This show just brings it out of me!
September 15th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
oK, I just watched it again and I’m a total dumbass. That was Joan’s boyfriend. Still, why doesn’t she kiss him or even touch him? Why doesn’t she cook? and there’s stalling in looking for a house. Joan is discovering she doesn’t really want to be a Betty. She wants to be Peggy. How ironic!
I love how when Don says, “I don’t want to lose all this.” that’s when Betty leaves the room. She knows she’s just part of a package, just something Don uses as a prop and for research for his job.
Does Don really love her? He probably believes he does in that moment, but does he really?
Awesome acting all around. When Peggy’s facade starts to crack there in her office with that rat bastard Father Gill, omg, what an amazing performance.
September 15th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Kay, I don’t think Don will extract revenge from Jimmy. I think he knows that he had it coming. He messed with another man’s wife. You could see the guilt. Ironically, he seemed more guilty about what he did to Jimmy than Betty.
The only time I remember Don exacting revenge was when Roger hit on his wife. Through the elevator situation. Another situation where a man hit on another man’s wife. That was against the Bro Code back then too.
No, I think Don will steer clear of Jimmy and Bobbie as much as he can unless it affects the job. He will want to be rid of it.
September 15th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
OH, best laugh out loud moment for me, Duck, Crab, Crab, Duck. I was totally Uma and Oprahing it.
September 15th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Yes, the women were left out. I think Elisabeth was a excellent choice for Emmy. Peggy is down right great for a actor role.
I bet that nexst year, the women get more of a turn.
September 15th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
@Ellelque “Elizabeth’s Peggy made me feel so sad. She still seems so alone and Father Gil is trying so hard to reach her. I have to ask, is anyone else getting the physical attraction between these two, or is Father Gil that assexual? Is she just a pet project? I am not Catholic and totally hate that these people are not allowed to fall in love and have a real life (Don’t hate on me) but I kinda hope Father Gil falls in love with her (OK, now God can strike me down).”
Hope he falls in love with her? I think it’s kind of already happened. I mean, when you’re looking at a specific person in a crowd enough to notice she’s not really engaged with your sermons, you might have a bit of a crush. Maybe. When you start showing up at a young single girl’s home for her oh-so-vital advertising skills at setting up a church sockhop (I mean, come on what’s next Gill? “Peggy, we got to pull an all-nighter again, I need ideas how to jazz up the collection plates!”), you might just have an unrequited crush. When you look at something that reminds you of her (a flyer) and then pull off your vestments, whip out a guitar and sing a song about “this lonely body needs a helping hand”, you just might have an unrequited crush there. But I don’t blame the guy, how can you not fall in love with that girl?
On the other hand, I can see why he doesn’t really betray any sort of any non-priestly interest in Peggy (Sal should take lessons from this guy). He might be a laid back priest, but even that makes knowingly being in a relationship with a woman who had a child born from adultery, who refuses to confess or acknowledge it in any way, morally unacceptable from his point of view. And even if I’m off-base with all this romantic conjecture, getting people to confront their sins is part of a priest’s duty. And he does have a point, even if all of his coaxing is starting to skate the line on confessional ethics. I mean, is Peggy’s complete denial of everything really a healthy way to go about the rest of her life? Or her son’s life, for that matter. She certainly doesn’t seem happy about it, and maybe confronting it now instead of living the rest of her life as a lie like Draper is the long-term better solution.
September 15th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Thanks, Kay! I’m feeling much better, hon — especially now that I’m back at work.
I love to work. If I were in Joanie’s place, and had to go fetch a drink for some fool who made a crack about my place being somewhere “eating bonbons and having cravings”, I’d make sure I put something nasty IN that drink.
Anyway, yes — I agree that Don will be fine. Having invented himself, and defended that invention whenever it was threatened, we can guess that he can make it through a dark phase with his unhappy wife. She might self-destruct, but I do not see her taking Don down with her.
Don is the ultimate survivor. He’s done it before; he’ll do it again.
Jimmy, though? Truth-tellers are not always welcome — especially among people who are heavily invested in hiding from themselves. Jimmy’s a truth-teller, and a brutal one, in a time that doesn’t welcome that. He (and his show — never mind his marriage) may not make it very far.
Finally, Donny Brook — I think that when Betty left the room after Don told her what he didn’t want to lose, it was because he had finally said something she did not want to hear.
I think Betty might actually welcome losing “all of that”. The home, the way she and Don relate to each other and the kids, everything. If Don had said something to her about wanting to start over — that might have gotten her attention, turned her around.
Then again, Don doesn’t want to start over with Betty: he wanted that with Rachel. With Betty, he wants more of the same.
September 15th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Did anyone catch the comment that Crab made to Don at the dinner party – regarding when they were going to join the yacht club? it made me remembers some posts last week regarding the same speculation and how don would pass the background check.
September 15th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Did Joan announce her engagement after Paul publicized her age? How soon after? Maybe it is a fiction. The guy last night was definitely NOT the same guy in FTWTY. That guy had darker hair, and looked to be in his mid-30s, which is how old Joan said her fiance was. Last night’s guy looked in his mid- to late 20s, and had lighter hair and softer features.
September 15th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
That’s what I was thinking too, hull. We’ve seen Joan with two different guys this season.
And she treated them both the way she treats the men at work. Lightly, with just enough respect, but in that bright detached way that indicates that she’s thinking about something else …
September 15th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
They are definitely different actors, Hull, but not even the Mighty Weiner can always get every actor he wants.
September 15th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
I love how they ended the episode with the characters all raw and exposed. No masks, no facades — just them at their most basic level of existence, stripped clean of any artifice or adornment. This is who these people truly are, and we finally got to see it.
September 15th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
hmm, Deborah its true but he could get another actor that looked very similar and was the same age that could definitely fool the audience – this wasn’t even close which, with Weiner’s attention to detail, makes me think that its intentional – there is something up. I’m with Hullaballoo.
September 15th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
It’s not the same guy. What that means, I have no idea anymore. Regardless, Joan isn’t marrying anyone soon, I’m thinking.
September 15th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
One thing I don’t fully understand is why there was a dinner party in the first place. It wasn’t to woo Heineken or entertain clients because the party planning happened before they started brainstorming about Heineken. That Betty happened to fall for their marketing was an unintended result of the evening. Why were they meeting with the guy from Rogers and Cowan in the first place? That’s a rival agency. Are they scoping him out as a possible new hire or is there going to be some sort of merger?
September 15th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Bravo to Jennifer Jones in her amazingly bared, brutal and ballsy performance as Betty “Absolutely Done With Taking And Accepting Don’s BS” Draper.
When she’s pulling herself up from the bed, after Sally came in to check on her and you could see how utterly exhausted she was (mentally, emotionally and physically), even with her stabbing her foot in the glass, you could see that she was “checked out” from being the “Perfect Wife”.
I loved that she put the silverware up and turned off the oven (leaving the half-cooked meat inside of it). Don couldn’t “make” Betty “forget” her anger and frustration with him THIS time.
I, don’t see her as this “child-like” figure, who needs to have Don “protecting and guilding her” at every opportunity. I see her, as this woman, who clearly thought that she KNEW her husband. I see her, as this woman, who clearly does love her husband. I see her, as this woman, who thought that her husband felt the same way about her. That’s why, when she told him in an earlier episode of this season, that she was glad to “be included” in his interest and life (like a team). During the dinner, she felt like an “outsider” in her own house, that’s another reason (besides Don clearly LYING to her) why she kept saying that he “embarrassed her”.
Everyone seemed to be “in on the joke” except for her, even that woman, who was clearly drunk during the dinner.
I’m intrigued by Don, but he truly screwed over Betty and she’s tired of “turning the other cheek” and I don’t blame her at all.
September 15th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Absolutely loved Betty’s dress. But I kept wishing she’d take it off and get comfy. I have worn vintage dresses from that time, and the snug waist can drive you crazy, even if you’re slim. I think it was intentional that she kept it on, it made her look even more crazed.
I noticed when Betty was angry with Don for “embarrassing” her, the thing he said everyone would remember was the one female guest (can’t remember her name) missing her chair because she was toasted. If he wanted to redeem himself (just a little), he should have told Betty that everyone would remember her incredible dinner, but that didn’t even occur to him. I suppose he just thinks it’s her job. But she needs some appreciation for all that work, even if she does have a maid helping her.
Does anyone else think cute little Sally has put on some weight? Could she be *gasp* “stout”? And then she’s starring as Piglet! Oh My! I noticed that the actress playing her has changed, obviously getting a little older, in the scene several episodes back she still looked like a little girl when she was watching Don shave, and then at the picnic she looked so different I hardly recognized her. Still cute though, don’t get me wrong. Just growing up.
I’m pretty sure the guy in Joan’s apt. is the fiance. She was asking him if a person could be in a coma and come out, he was answering in an authoritative way, like a doctor would do. I think it’s just a different actor. What I did notice, but no one has mentioned, was a comment Joan made in the preview for next episode, she said something that sounded like she was reassuring someone they would “get over it”. I wish I had it recorded, I’d look again. It sounded like she might be ending a relationship? Maybe with the fiance she obviously doesn’t really like that well? The whole thing is for image. I guess we’ll know in two weeks, yikes – can we wait that long?! What will we do when it goes off the air for months until next summer? Oh, the agony!
Personally, I think in the previews that Peggy is yelling at her sister Anita for talking to Father Gil about her past, not Pete. They just splice the two scenes together to make it look like she’s aiming her darts at Pete. I notice they do this a lot with the previews. Last week Joan was saying, “someone we think is dead isn’t” and it was about the soap opera, not Don.
I looked at the preview on AMC, what are the three boys even doing? I didn’t get it at all. The previews drive me crazy, they give us nothing! Acck!
September 15th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
A few points before the headache meds kick in….
When Betty told Don to not come home, I cracked up! Funniest shit I’d seen on MM in 2 episodes! LOL!
The only reason I think Don *may* get revenge on Pipsqueak Jimmy is because of the “I’ll ruin him!” threat he made to Bobbie a few episodes back. That can’t be just a throwaway line! Jimmy may be a truth-teller but he’s got no decorum! Because Don has a ginormous ego that didn’t take kindly to a dressing down by an anti-funny schmuck, had his “dream” family messed up and has a touch of gangsta, he’ll handle Jimmy…I hope!
September 15th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
My thoughts on Jimmy:
Last week, he did not look like the man who got the last laugh. He looked deeply unhappy: like a cuckold. He’s a truth-teller who can only be brutally honest when he goes on the attack around others. He won’t do that to himself.
“I got everything I wanted”: right, Jimmy. Then why were you alone all night? Why are you so angry? And why, in every deal you make, is it your wife who has to both plow the field and smooth the rows for you?
So to speak.
And let’s never forget: Don comes from a working-class background. He grew up with nothing. He cleans up soooo well (breathe, Anne — breathe
), but there’s more than a touch of gangsta under that nice suit.
I too like Angry Betty. Big time. I liked her dress just fine at the party — but the second day? With the bad hair? LOVED it.
September 15th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
BTW, Kay … I’m sorry about your headache. I get migraines; I can completely relate.
Feel better, hon.
September 15th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Flyme, Joan says “One day you’ll lose someone whose important to you” and she is looking down and sad. I predict that it is about the death of someone she loved. Remember her hate of hospitals.
I just love the anger in Peggy’s face when she charges into Pete’s office and says “You couldn’t keep your mouth shut!” He jumps off the couch. I just bet he let it slip about him and Peggy’s past. They probably said something to Peggy.
Then they show her saying “I wish it hadn’t happened this way” and looking regretful. I scrutinized these clips very closely. In both Peggy scenes she is wearing the same shirt and the last one she appears to be standing in front of the same kind of wood panelling that Pete has in his office. Maybe she told him about the baby? It is obviously going to be a very emotional scene.
Maybe one reason she warns him off telling people because she knows if Don hears he will put Pete and the Baby together in his mind?
Matt knows how to wet our appetite.
September 15th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Betty rocks.
September 15th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Kay, sorry about your headaches.
I don’t think Don has a huge ego. I think he actually has an inferority complex. He thinks he is a shit, he just hides it well. He knows he is doing Betty wrong, but he can’t help himself.
case in point, whenever anyone praises Don for something noble, etc. he always looks pained. Like the thing with his daughter and the mirror.
Had to note, watch “Philidelphia” before MM and got to say, Colin Hanks and his dad look sooo much alike. That last scene when Colin was getting out his guitar I flashed to Tom Hanks immediately.
September 15th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Was just on the AMC MM site and much to my surprise Heineken has an advertisement running there.
I love this show and I love the sponsers who will keep this show on the air. So Heineken you will purchased and enjoyed! Thank you for supporting Mad Men.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:26 pm
One thing I don’t fully understand is why there was a dinner party in the first place. It wasn’t to woo Heineken or entertain clients because the party planning happened before they started brainstorming about Heineken. That Betty happened to fall for their marketing was an unintended result of the evening. Why were they meeting with the guy from Rogers and Cowan in the first place? That’s a rival agency. Are they scoping him out as a possible new hire or is there going to be some sort of merger?
It seems to me that they weren’t brainstorming, Don was re-visiting his previous idea. He was telling Duck to sell Heineken on the upscale supermarket/housewife idea, Duck was saying, they weren’t going for, Don said, get a small focus group, knowing his wife would go for it.
By the way, notice how that parallels Father Gill and Peggy? He’s all, you need a different idea, and she’s all, no; you need to sell them on this idea, that’s your job.
As to the Rogers & Cowan thing, I have not one single clue.
flyme, I think you have some good thoughts there. It looks like they’re trying to get into a private club, probably a sex club.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
It is strange how sometimes the current newspaper stories mirror MM so perfectly.
Today the headline for Le Monde was ‘Lundi noir après la faillite de Lehman Brothers’ which translates in English to ‘Black Monday after the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers’.
And I was thinking that it could easily be ‘Black Monday after the bankruptcy of the Draper Marriage’.
Smoke and mirrors. Assets that were over valued. Lies. Deceit. Cheating.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
We have to wait 2 weeks for the next episode. You know it is gonna be good.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
^ with a two week wait, I hope they release another preview clip on the website.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
#356 Deborah
I think they are referring to a Country Club. This is the Country Club where the auction was held for the bathing suits.
There is one in Harrison, NY, the Willow Ridge Country Club which is private. Willow Oaks could be a reference to it.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
yes, i mentioned (339) about the comment crab made to dick…..he basically was asking when are betty and don joining the club…..don didnt answer.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
**I noticed when Betty was angry with Don for “embarrassing†her, the thing he said everyone would remember was the one female guest (can’t remember her name) missing her chair because she was toasted. If he wanted to redeem himself (just a little), he should have told Betty that everyone would remember her incredible dinner, but that didn’t even occur to him. I suppose he just thinks it’s her job. But she needs some appreciation for all that work, even if she does have a maid helping her.**
Betty was going to have that fight, she needed to have it, and there’s nothing Don could have said to prevent it. The beer embarrassment was the straw that broke the camel’s back, and the rest had to happen.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
@ 332 – Southie -
definitely liked your interpretation of Peggy’s pro bono work. i had interpreted more from the perspective of her personal storyline.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
i agree ms darkly. she had been simmering since the jimmy exchange. something was going give.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Expanding on miamimiami’s #313, it seems like there was also a theme here about confessions and not getting them. Betty and Father Gil both “know” the secrets of Don and Peggy, but the latter are not going to give it up. In a similar, but more subtle way, Joan doesn’t give up her desire for that job. And all three who remain silent are paying the price for it emotionally.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
YES! my ramble came in the middle of preparing to make my first public address tomorrow at a board of trustees meeting (yikes!) and there were certain things i missed.
Karl – excellent point!
September 15th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
“I just love the anger in Peggy’s face when she charges into Pete’s office and says “You couldn’t keep your mouth shut!†He jumps off the couch. I just bet he let it slip about him and Peggy’s past. They probably said something to Peggy.”
@ Ellelque #352: I think it’s probably something a lot more innocent. Like Pete told his father-in-law about “Thanks Clearasil,” then he told Duck about it, so now they have to go with that approach. Once again, Peggy’s being left out of the loop in a campaign that will probably go nowhere — just like American Airlines and Playtex. At least they’re not likely to lose the Clearasil account as a result of it.
September 16th, 2008 at 12:04 am
Darkly – yes, I know Betty was “simmering”, and there was a lot more to Betty’s problem than just being embarrassed by Don’s ad campaign. I just thought it was interesting that even in this small instance, Don couldn’t tell her she did a good job. If anyone needs therapy, it’s Don. Needs to know how to communicate and needs to figure out how to leave the ladies alone
Thanks Ellelque for giving me the exact quote from Joan in the previews, I couldn’t remember for sure what she said. Just sounded like something had ended. I guess it’s not the end of the relationship with the fiance after all.
I think Harry made a mistake not keeping Joan as script reader, she was a better “face” for the department than Harry is. The guys seemed to think so anyway! I think he’ll miss her input.
September 16th, 2008 at 12:22 am
He was a deer in the headlights and tried to joke his way out of it, but he never had a chance. She was on him as soon as Carla closed the door.
Don needed to tell the truth, especially when she spent the whole day looking for evidence and never doubted herself. There was no way he was going to bluff his way out of what she’d known on some level for a long time, and for him to try only embarrassed himself and insulted her.
September 16th, 2008 at 12:36 am
Betty was going to blow no matter what. Did you see how hard she rode that horse in the very first scene? And she had such a grim, ultra-focused look on her face. Our prim, pretty Betty worked up quite a sweat. Then when she returned home, she obviously could not stand to be around Don. She was barely tolerating him.
The “embarrassment”was a relatively minor thing, but it was tremendously significant to Betty because it was an instance of her not knowing what was going on, on what was supposed to be 100% her turf.
I noticed the script for Jimmy’s commercial had lines that are much more significant now. Jimmy’s wearing a tux (like at the Stork Club) and he also makes some remark in the commercial like “such nice people” (I forget exactly) Which would further explain why Betty just decided she’d had enough after seeing that commercial.
September 16th, 2008 at 12:44 am
Imagine my horror when a night on the town turned ugly, indeed.
September 16th, 2008 at 1:35 am
#311 madgirl said, “For instance, Betty could have found a hotel receipt and investigated it, instead, she finds nothing and that left nothing for the viewer as well.”
On the contrary. The fact that she found nothing is evidence of how very carefully Don is covering his tracks. This suggests deliberation, premeditation, and a pattern of practised deceit. In a way it’s worse than an incriminating smudge of lipstick (which could have been the outcome of a moment of impulse).
#313 miamimami said, “Even as she breaks the chair, I didn’t see it as a person going crazy. She breaks the chair because its faulty and no longer usable, it is time to get rid of it. A person in a rage would have broken the chair with more aggression, the whole thing seemed to be done out of practicality.”
I saw Betty’s destruction of the chair as an expression of her despair at Don’s reluctance to fill his role as husband. This was the second damaged household item that we see; the first was the light fixture that Don seemed to be too lazy to care about. I thought that when Betty saw the damaged chair, she realized that there was no point in asking Don to repair it before the party because Don DID NOT CARE about the damage and was not interested in repairing it – that the damage (to the chair and, analogously, to their marriage) was beyond repair in Betty’s eyes. She took the logical next step and destroyed the chair outright. Perhaps she was thinking, “This chair won’t function as a chair, so I’m damned if I’m going to let it sit there and pretend to our visitors that it really is one.” To me her gesture seemed completely right.
#334 Ellelque said, “I don’t think Don will extract revenge from Jimmy. I think he knows that he had it coming. He messed with another man’s wife. You could see the guilt. Ironically, he seemed more guilty about what he did to Jimmy than Betty.”
Don seems to be overcome with remorse (perhaps not the same as guilt?) each time his comfortable view of himself is punctured and he’s reminded of how shabbily he really behaves. His mask cracks open and he’s brutally reminded of the fact that underneath the facade, he really believes himself to be a piece of shit. I’m not sure whether Don truly has regrets about his treatment of Betty, however. Perhaps he feels that since he’s spending handsomely on his family, and putting in the occasional appearance as masculine figurehead, that’s all he’s really obligated to do, and Betty doesn’t have the right to make any further claim on him. I think it may be an attitude of deep entitlement that’s causing Don to be so dismissive and denying towards Betty. Perhaps he thought when he married her that he was buying her?
I agree with everyone who praised January Jones’s performance in this episode. She expressed perfectly the profound humiliation that any woman feels when she discovered that the husband she believed/hoped was faithful has been deliberately cheating on her – and that others have known about it too. (A perfect echo of her neighbour back in season one.)
September 16th, 2008 at 1:45 am
That’s it, Ms D…I remember during the Benefactor thinking to myself that those were odd lines!
Can I just say…I really really hate Don right now. I’ve really enjoyed all of the characters’ complexities and their humanity, but I did not feel deep emotions about any of them. (I’ve never felt the Betty hate that some seem to feel — I just waited for her to act out the Feminine Mystique.) However, watching Don lie repeatedly to Betty was really awful. And it was equally awful watching her methodically hunt for a smoking gun, and not find one (at least not find one that she recognized). It was so sad to see her at the breakfast table, looking disheveled, with her night-after party look, and then see Don come down the stairs, dressed for going to his outside world that she was not part of and could not participate in. He is going to destroy his family in the process of trying to keep this artificial construct of his life.
By the way: anyone notice how Don did not say outright that Jimmy was wrong? He said “Jimmy has a big mouth.”
September 16th, 2008 at 2:02 am
I defy anyone to hear him telling Betty that all people will remember is Petra Colson missing her chair and not see he’s pitching to Betty. It’s the same voice that he uses when he’s talking about tobacco or the smell of a new (not vomited in) car.
September 16th, 2008 at 3:47 am
There are times when this show can hit pretty close to home!
September 16th, 2008 at 7:09 am
@Elle and Anne: Thanks for the kind comments! Migraines are no joke!
September 16th, 2008 at 7:12 am
@360 John Rothschild: I meant in the previews for next week, the “sneak peek” on AMC’s website. That’s no country club!
@370 Madwoman: Good call about the riding. Notice that she went upstairs with her boots still on—doesn’t care where the manure gets, now!
@372 chamekke: Sharp insights about the chair and broken things in the house/marriage. I was also thinking about how much Dick Whitman is behind the scenes in all this. Hiding all evidence is second nature to someone who has changed his identity, and in switching from Dick to Don, he feels pretty strongly he doesn’t have to do the chores anymore.
September 16th, 2008 at 7:44 am
Yes, No. 373 By the way: anyone notice how Don did not say outright that Jimmy was wrong? He said “Jimmy has a big mouth.â€
I noticed that choice of words also. I felt that Betty was possibly clinging to her sanity (okay, maybe that is a bit ovedramatic) while Don was lying to her trying to get his version of reality even if it pushed Betty over the edge. Don didn’t say Jimmy was wrong, Jimmy has a big mouth. Oh, and also Don said we know how Jimmy looks at you Betty. How awful for Betty to be so disrespected, discounted, basically told she is crazy when she objected to being mistreated.
September 16th, 2008 at 8:06 am
When Betty appeared in the ice-blue bathrobe with the silvery hair slicked back, I flashed to "A Night to REmember" all right. Betty is the iceberg….Don has just struck it. He's going DOWN.
September 16th, 2008 at 8:22 am
PS: re a much earlier post, Dorothy Sayers' Lord Peter Wimsey mystery "Murder Must Advertise" is one of my faves & has been since long before Mad Men. The parallels are intriguing. I highly recommend it; and all of the Lord Peter mysteries.
September 16th, 2008 at 8:22 am
No, I think Betty meant she was Old, like a Cougar today. Betty cannot picture Don being attracted to anything that doesn't fit her idea of beauty. Young, Blonde) I don't think it is a Jewish thing.
Really Betty has no idea what Don really finds attractive in women, Brains, self-esteem, strong personality, usually a Brunette.
I understand that Matt places a lot of anti-semitism in the show to display the ignorance of the time, but come on folks, we cannot not read it into EVERYTHING. Sometimes Old is just Old.
September 16th, 2008 at 8:29 am
"The fact that she found nothing is evidence of how very carefully Don is covering his tracks. This suggests deliberation, premeditation, and a pattern of practised deceit. In a way it’s worse than an incriminating smudge of lipstick (which could have been the outcome of a moment of impulse)."
A wise man once said, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." People often see what they want to see, and justify it by whatever logic works for their particular situation, but I actually think that our Betts is smarter than that. Sometimes, when she trusts herself. Betty is so sure that Don has been and is still cheating on her that she is desperate to find proof, but even without it she is willing to trust Jimmy Barrett's word over Don's. I'm not sure she's gotten to the he's-just-that-good-at-hiding-it place yet, though, so not finding any concrete clues may have planted some doubts in her mind. Having the reminder in the form of the Utz commercial was probably a good thing for Betty in the long run, since it bolstered her resolve to finally stand up to her philandering husband.
I'm not sure if this is really making the point I'm going for, but there it is. Maybe I'll try again later when I figure out how to articulate it better.
September 16th, 2008 at 8:34 am
I also cannot figure out in 1962 how a tv movie about the killing a Soviet agitator would upset people to call Maytag and complain about their washing machine agitators commercial.
Viewers weren't upset. the Maytag people were upset.
September 16th, 2008 at 8:41 am
Am I the only one who doesn’t trust Father Gil? It almost seems like he’s stalking Peggy. This fits with my theory of seeing Peggy as the pilgrim in Pilgrim’s Progress who must avoid temptation & overcome obstacles to meet her goal. Father Gil is trying to exploit her vulnerability for his own purposes (probably romantic/sexual), not provide her spiritual guidance. Looking back to when he offered her the Easter egg for the “little one,” he was hinting at her secret to see how she would react. Since she hasn’t reacted he is increasing the pressure. Peggy needs to resolve her feelings about the pregnancy & the baby (who is still very much in her life) to be a successful human being, not just successful in her career. But she needs the help & guidance of someone who puts her interests first, not someone who wants to take advantage of her. I’m not sure if such a person exists in her world.
s
September 16th, 2008 at 9:56 am
Oh I misunderstood.
Does anyone know who Jimmy Barrett suppose to be? He seems like a Don Rickels because of the insults, but Don Rickles was doing movies and guest spots on television at this time. Even though I ws only a kid in 1962 I do not remember ABC having a candid camera show
September 16th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Doug, Jimmy Barrett isn't supposed to be anyone just as Don Draper isn't supposed to be anyone. He's a Don Rickles type of comic, a fictional character inserted into the Mad Men world. It's a testament to the skill of the writers and directors that he seems like he's supposed to be someone real.
September 16th, 2008 at 10:03 am
About Betty. I think she knew that Don was cheating on her for years but did not want to admit it until Jimmy told her. All of a sudden, reality sinks in. I do feel that Don is manipulting Betty into thinking she has mental problems. I feel sorry for their children. They seemed really scared of their Mom. I think Betty smokes too much. My parents smoked in the early sixties and I hated it.
September 16th, 2008 at 10:10 am
You gotta see this, Jon Hamm does a great impersonation of Regis Philbin and apparently has a Bro crush an Jon Hamm! LOL
http://defamer.com/5050258/jon-hamm-disses-crazy-...
September 16th, 2008 at 10:10 am
To Deborah Lipp
Thank you for this site. I have been watching Mad men since it began. I find your site and the people who write very interesting.
September 16th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Hulla, I surely hope that it is not a business related item that Peggy is going off on Pete about on the next episode. We are going to be 9 episodes into this season, and the relationship of Pete and Peggy has barely been touched. It has only been skimmed here and there. I would like to see some kind of major showdown between these two before the conclusion of the season.
The fact that Pete is unable to concieve with his wife, but has a unknown child with Peggy is ripe with irony that I would hope the writers would not let go all “Russian in the Pine Barrens” on us.
Matt has shown previews that we totally misinterpreted in the past. Something like Betty telling Don he should have told her while sitting on the bed. Many thought maybe he told her about Don/Dick, when really it was him using his high blood pressure to cover his car accident/tryst with Bobbie.
I myself will feel kind of cheated if Matt lets this whole season go by without a more direct approach to that baby.
HelenR, I don’t know if it the fact that Colin Hanks looks so much like his father that I can’t see him being a bad guy, or that I don’t want another man to hurt Peggy. I want to trust his motives, but I just think he is going the wrong way about it. I think Father Gil needs to do a little soul searching and figure out why he is so determinted to get past Peggy’s wall. Or maybe because I am not Catholic, I don’t know that this how they handle their flock.
Next weeks preview, I predict it is some kind of gambling establishment, Mob related maybe? If it is a sex club, that would be interesting. I just can’t picture Roger and Don hanging out at a sex club with Freddy Rumsun. I can picture Freddy having gambling issues for some reason.
September 16th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Defamer is kinda playing it off like Jon Hamm was a dick to "Reege," but I think the story was sweet and funny and not meant to offend. Personally, I think the "bromance" might be mutual.
September 16th, 2008 at 11:17 am
Does anyone feel that when Betty mention that Bobbie was so old, she couldn’t come up with the word to say Bobbie is Jewish? I think her disgust is that Don would sleep with a woman that is Jewish.
I also cannot figure out in 1962 how a tv movie about the killing a Soviet agitator would upset people to call Maytag and complain about their washing machine agitators commercial.
September 16th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Maytag claimed their switchboards lit up, and used it as an excuse not to pay.
Washing machines ARE kinda commie.
September 16th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Oooh…I just noticed on the AMC web site that "Mad Men is sponsored by Heineken".
Yikes. That means we've been subjected to the dreaded "product placement"! (Something I take great exception to, generally.)
Interesting how much less disturbing it is when it happens in such a high-quality show (which is disturbing)! I suspect I took it in stride because of all of the other mentions (American Airlines, Maytag, Volkswagen, etc…)
September 16th, 2008 at 11:54 am
Ms. D., oops you're right.
wilberfan, some of the products advertised are placements, but not all. Utz isn't. Since real products lends versimilatude, I think product placement is smart and not offensive.
September 16th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Just thinking about the meeting with Don and Duck after Betty's dinner party and how it reminded me of how congratulatory Colonel Pickering was to Henry Higgins right after they passed Eliza off as a princess at the fancy dress ball in "My Fair Lady." Going on and on, slapping each other on the back because of their absolute genius in pulling off this supreme achievement, while Eliza just stands there, horrified and aghast–like she was just some gamepiece, that really had nothing to do with her own success, being manipulated around the board. Even though Betty was wearing her traditional, frozen smile while they laughingly explained things to her at the dinner party, you know she was SEETHING underneath, and probably thinking the same thoughts as Eliza.
I would also like to testify to the fact that our dining room chairs are very similar to those belonging to the Drapers and I have come close to treating them in a similar fashion–they just aren't as sturdy as they were so many years ago!
Also, has anyone heard any news about renewal for the third season–last year they announced renewal around the time of Episode Eleven–Think a lot of Emmy Awards might help???
September 16th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Wilberfan, this kinda ties into Joan's job.
I think Heineken was smart enough to see that this was a great opportunity and so they decided to run with it, but I imagine they were in the script either way.
Someone from Heineken probably wanted to see the script and make sure it was positive, and then realized that it would be even more effective to officially buy ad time.
American did not buy ad time for probably the same reason that the Mad Men version of Maytag didn't want to be associated with communism. American would gain nothing from placing their product next to a show that reminds people of one of their failed flights.
Now, if Don had mentioned being toasted off his ass on "Heinies" right before his car accident, I doubt they would be a proud sponsor.
September 16th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Hey gang, great stuff as always. I'm too lame to stay up late on Sundays, so my wife and I always watch DVR on Monday — thus, I'm late to this conversation almost to the point of irrelevance. Some thoughts on "A Night To Remember"
– A few references touched me personally. First, I live in southeast Westchester, so references to New Rochelle and Larchmont were cool. Also, to this day I still call my oldest daughter "Piglet" (due to what I thought were the barnyard noises she made as a newborn in the bassinet next to us).
– Good for Betty. For once, Don couldn't bully her like he did, say, when she wore the bikini. We'll see how long her resolve holds, but for now it's good to see her testing her own toughness. Also, anything that makes Don uncomfortable only makes the show more fun.
– Was hoping they might make more of Duck's teetotaling, especially in light of Crab's wife being so hammered. There's a lot they could do with Duck's square-peg-in-round-hole situation.
– The Peggy-Father Gill storyline is wearing on me. Forget that he may be using her sister's confession improperly — I just wish Peggy would say something along the lines of, "we all find God in our own time and way". It would be consistent with the character's occasional feistiness, and it's the obvious thing to tell him. Clearly, she's got a ton of guilt, not just denial — but it feels a but out of the blue to me.
– The best storyline for me — BY FAR — was Harry and Joan. The more I think about it, the more it strikes me…it is far more painful and tragic for Joan to get unwittingly dissed by a guy like Harry (who suffers from obtuse ignorance, but nothing more) than it is to get abused by rounders like Roger or Paul. What utter devastation she felt, helped not a bit by her "different" fiance who isn't really that different at all. And the bra mark — chains of indentured servitude, marks of the burden of being overripe, whatever you call it — had me heartbroken and slack-jawed.
– And finally, we have now had two consecutive brilliant reaction shots from Christina Hendricks, as Joan realizes she is powerless against both Roger's machinations regarding Jane and against Harry's cluelessness that she might actually want to do more that run the secretarial pool. All I can say is WOW.
September 16th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
I was just waiting for Betty or someone at the table to push Duck to have a beer or whatever. They created the tension and to expect that and then Duck was "saved" by the set up of Betty as the housewife/guinea (sic?) pig for the beer sales. I also think there is more can be done with Duck's situation. And maybe it's coming!
September 16th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
What really struck me about this episode that no else has mentioned is Gill's guitar. I was sure who was going to start playing some Bob Dylan, but then he did a spirituatial. He's clearly a part of the younger generation of clergy. I'm sure in a season or 2, he's going to be involved in the anti-war movement.
September 16th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
"Just thinking about the meeting with Don and Duck after Betty’s dinner party and how it reminded me of how congratulatory Colonel Pickering was to Henry Higgins right after they passed Eliza off as a princess at the fancy dress ball in 'My Fair Lady.'"
@ #396 Maggiemay:
Yay! Another "My Fair Lady" connection. This show is replete with them. Absolutely brimming, I tell ya. Although the allusions are very subtle, and can get lost amongst all the costumes, singing, dancing, and Andrews vs. Hepburn discussions, thematically, these two shows have a lot in common. A LOT: constructed identities, class struggles, gender wars, people hampered by rigid codes of conduct and societal expectations, prostitution, illegitimate children, and men with unresolved mother issues that adversely affect their relationships with other women — that's the essence of both shows, if you ask me.
I wrote a post about it here, although I didn't go into as much detail as I would have liked. I may revisit the topic again someday, after I've given it more thought and have time to really dissect both shows.
September 16th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
"Someone from Heineken probably wanted to see the script and make sure it was positive, and then realized that it would be even more effective to officially buy ad time."
@ #397 Ms Darkly:
Actually, I think Heineken has been one of the main sponsors since the beginning of the show, but I do believe this was the first real instance of product placement in Mad Men. Despite the fantastic exposure some of the products receive because they're being referenced in MM, I know that Weiner actually accepts very little product placement for the show, for precisely the reason that you stated. If he uses a real product in the show, he wants to use it as he sees fit, not the way the advertiser wants to use it.
September 16th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Ah. Last season I just did downloads, so what do I know?
September 16th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
I have been thinking of this show more and more…. I went to sleep yesterday thinking of how we use our 2008 collective conscience to
debate (even with ourselves) the storylines.
I record the show and think of it as a literature assignemt. I watch, and then go back and readdress the nuances of the plots, twists and backstories.
I like being an observer and student of the show. I would like to think I could take something that is….after all, a television show and use to be a better spouse, co-worker, and person.
September 17th, 2008 at 4:43 am
"I noticed that choice of words also. I felt that Betty was possibly clinging to her sanity (okay, maybe that is a bit ovedramatic) while Don was lying to her trying to get his version of reality even if it pushed Betty over the edge. Don didn’t say Jimmy was wrong, Jimmy has a big mouth. Oh, and also Don said we know how Jimmy looks at you Betty. How awful for Betty to be so disrespected, discounted, basically told she is crazy when she objected to being mistreated."
He was gaslighting her. Shame on Don. I hate when people do that and I hated Don right then. Luckily for Betty, she wasn't having it. Good for her. Nasty Jimmy did her a favor. Sometimes you really do have to be cruel to be kind, although that wasn't what Jimmy intended. The entire arc of her realization was really well-done in this episode. And now she can come alive.
September 17th, 2008 at 4:53 am
I totally agree with those who mistrust Father Gill. Frankly, I wanted Peggy to tell him to buzz off. Don't you all hate those people who try to insinuate themselves into your lives by being helpful and concerned and yet somehow willfully miss the clues that you need a little space please?
And I felt for Joan when the guy got the job. She was clearly enjoying reading scripts and using her brains in a different modality than office manager. The problem, though, is that once you're an office manager, you can't really move up, can you? They've come to depend on Joan for running the office and even if they don't show what this involves, it's not an easy job. Also, you could see that Joan was torn. This could be an interesting development because she'd have to confront her ideas about male/female roles vs. what really fulfills her. You can see that that guy is going to rely on her a lot.
Personally, though, at some point during the show I thought to myself: Man, when is Weiner going to start showing us some African-American characters? I'm getting tired of all this white bread. It'd be cool to have an episode in which we follow Carla home and the elevator boy. Also, what about Sheila, mang?
September 17th, 2008 at 5:16 am
I've been thinking about something…
I find it interesting that a number of people here feel that Gil is inappropriate in the way he tries to help Peggy. On the other hand, a lot of commenters praise Don for going to Peggy's bedside in the hospital and giving her advice and encouragement.
I personally feel that the advice that Don gave Peggy, to just move on and forget about what has happened, is destructive and will not ultimately lead to happiness and peace. Maybe many would agree with me that the advice is bad, but still see Don as benevolent in offering it to her.
What Gil is advocating is for her to talk about what is bothering her, to confess her sin which is obviously affecting her, and to be in communion and relationship with her family and community. I think this is good advice, but some here see Gil as the bad guy.
A lot of the ill will towards Gil is because it seems he is using information from the sister's confession to manipulate Peggy. Maybe he is, but he may also just be able to see something in her that is unhappy and guilty and he wants to help her. Yes, he knows about the pregnancy and the baby, but I think he had already noticed something about Peggy that he was drawn to before he heard her sister's confession.
September 17th, 2008 at 5:33 am
I don't think we've seen the last of Joan's attempt at more professional responsibility. She's a smart woman, adept at survival in a hostile environment. She's aware that she's "last year's model" & will have to find a way to renew her franchise. She's discovered her talent & pleasure in reading scripts & interacting with clients. She also knows she won't be happy as a doctor's stay-at-home wife. I think she'll figure out a way to parlay her talents in a new position of power. I have more confidence in Joan's survival skills than I do Peggy's, who I see as much more fragile.
September 17th, 2008 at 6:01 am
I see your point, wisefish, but for me it's not the content of Father Gill's advice that bothers me. It's his insistence on getting close to Peggy, even if Peggy rebuffs him. He is saying, "Please let me help you" and yet he seems a little obtuse in noticing how uncomfortable she feels. He's intruding on her privacy and he's kinda coming on too strong. KWIM?
I see Don's advice differently. Firstly, he was careful in talking in general terms. He did ask her what happened to her but when he saw that she didn't open up, he didn't push and he kept the advice in very broad terms. While Don may have said, None of this ever happened, she didn't just turn her back on her child. She took some responsibility. The way she read his advice was: This mistake is not as catastrophic as you think it is. Get on with your life. And when you're very young, this is a very important perspective. You're 21 and you think your mistakes are HUGE and you're deeply ashamed and sometimes you write yourself off due to this erroneous notion.
Lastly, Don came to Peggy at a moment in which she was obviously very vulnerable. She needed a reason to go on. In a very real way, her life as she knew it was over.
Right now Peggy is not vulnerable and yet Father Gill insists on casting her as such. That can be very irritating, ime. He's insisting that she needs his help and she thinks otherwise, thank you very much. And he's refusing to get it because he has a very particular idea about what a happy life should look like. Well who is he to say?
September 17th, 2008 at 6:37 am
MarlyK: I'm feelin' ya on that need to see more about Carla and other folk of color. A thought occurred to me of how cool (and ballsy) would it have been to show, at the end of the program, in addition to Not-So-Old Betty, Peggs and Helium-Voiced Joan, Carla's "burden!" Mad Men is well-written enough to include that, I think! Frankly, I'm not going to wait, like, 3 more seasons for the show to decide Blacks wil get that "very special episode!"
**Go ahead! Throw tomatoes at me now!
**
Also, there IS something off about the Hippie Priest. Trying to get Peggs to confess or whatever the hell at her office? He's just a tad too "familiar" with this woman.
September 17th, 2008 at 6:46 am
wisefish, what you're saying is thoughtful, but the huge difference is there are very specific rules of conduct for a priest. They are supposed to be trained in pastoral counseling. They are definitely trained in the sanctity of the confessional. I think he's a nice guy and I don't distrust him, but he's a big ol' FAIL as a priest. He simply is behaving badly according to the rules of his order.
Don's advise works for Don, and now for Peggy, and it may not be the best advise, but there's no rules in Bossland about giving your employee advise, and there are rules in Priestland. (Yes, I really said that. No, I can't believe it either.)
Kay and Marly, I, too, am pretty sick of the whiteness of the white people. Thank the Gods there are some Jews and an Italian.
September 17th, 2008 at 7:11 am
MarlyK, Deborah, I see what you are saying about Gil being too aggressive/inappropriate in his attempts to be helpful. I agree he shouldn't be trying to get her to confess at her office!
I think it's interesting, though, that Peggy is obviously going back to church more. In the first episode didn't her sister comment that her mother was lying about Peggy attending church elsewhere to cover up for her absences from church? It seemed that Sunday she went to church and met Father Gil was the first Sunday she'd been to church in a long while, and she was ready to walk out then until he asked her to come back in. After she met him, she kept coming back.
So, she must not be too put off by Father Gil. She must be drawn to him and the church more now too.
I am not sure what the Catholic Church was like in 1962, but I would think it would have really stuck out for a young woman to attend church regularly and not go up for communion, when she had been a regular communicant in the past. So she is sending a pretty strong message that although I am part of this church community, I have a sin on my conscience which doesn't allow me to participate fully. Even if the sister hadn't told Gil anything, he would be aware that something pretty big was up with Peggy.
September 17th, 2008 at 7:20 am
I think Peggy is definitely drawn to Father Gil too. In a weird way, Peggy is always drawn to guys who find her attractive. It's never the other way around. She never picks out a guy herself. I think this is part of what's complicated about Peggy's own relationship to her powers of attraction. Father Gil noticed her and she can't seem to give up his attention even at times it puts her off. That's some bargain she's striking with herself…
September 17th, 2008 at 7:55 am
Anyone else ever noticed something about Gil that reminds them of Pete?
(Well, a combo of Pete and Tom Hanks, of course!)
I can't put my finger on it, but something about the way he talks reminds me of Pete sometimes.
Oh, and I wanted to add that I disagree that Peggy is not vulnerable right now. She has pulled herself together outwardly since being in the hospital when Don came to visit, but she's still vulnerable!
September 17th, 2008 at 8:30 am
@Wisefish: I find Pete irksome and creepy. And there is something about Hippie Priest that is very Pete-like. Maybe that's where I get the vibe the Fr. is not right….
September 17th, 2008 at 8:44 am
Guess there are some 'real' Don Drapers out here in the San Francisco Bay Area. This is from an article in today's Chronicle:
'Nearly 30 Bay Area residents are among the more than 100 suspects charged with passport fraud for allegedly using birth certificates of dead people, authorities said.
Some defendants used the identities of deceased people for decades, and their neighbors, spouses, employers and children never knew them by their true names, authorities said.'
September 17th, 2008 at 9:06 am
It gets harder and harder to do, because now they're using computers to flag death certificates.
I remember a cop or detective show; pretty sure it was the Rockford Files, but definitely that era, where the hero discovered that a scam was being used to create false identies simply by cross-checking birth certificates against death certificates. All the stolen identities were of babies who died at age one year or younger, thereby leaving no records that could screw up the identity thief. Once you found record of such a death, you requested the birth certificate, with that you could get a driver's license, and violá, identity!
September 17th, 2008 at 10:39 am
"We have a shot of the television screen where the little boy character is complaining that his girlfriend is seeing another boy behind his back. HIs father asks how he knows, and he says something along the line of, “I saw her at the soda shop and there was another boy at the end of MY straw.†Canned laughter. Then the Jimmy Barrett–Utz commercial. An innocuous combo for most people, but a childish reference to infidelity combined with Barrett, the bearer of bad news, is what I think set Betty off."
enlightenmentgirl, I agree, and I also think the nature of the Jimmy commercial was part of it. When they showed him filming it, I thought it was a bad commercial, but it looked better on TV than during filming. Even so, the commercial is kind of gross. Jimmy stands there looking all fine and then basically jams his head into a bag of potato chips and ends up with all this food falling out of his mouth – I can only assume that is supposed to be part of his act – sort of Don Rickles crossed with Lenny Bruce.
The visual of a tuxedo-wearing man acting so inappropriately is the perfect analogy to Don – he looks the part, he acts the part, but underneath he acts with vulgarity and is offensive. Betty is reminded of more than what Jimmy said when she saw the ad (and the teenager being two-timed just like Betty), she is reminded of how Don's betrayal is a grotesque assault on the fantasy they are living, just like Jimmy assaults the chips.
September 17th, 2008 at 10:40 am
Oops – one other thought, re: Peggy and Father Gill. I don't know what the attraction is between these two, but let's not assume it's sexual. After all, this is the same show that has a married Sal – Father Gill could easily be gay.
September 17th, 2008 at 11:07 am
Kay, I second your thoughts about Carla. I want to know what she thinks of working for the Drapers. I want to know where she lives, and how she lives, and how far she has to travel to get to that suburban house of secrets. And like you, I doubt I have the pateince to wait even another season to see this.
No tomatoes coming your way from me.
As for Father Gil, I find this prybaby priest irritating … and it occurred to me that maybe he was getting on Peggy's case about her Communion habits because he felt emasculated in that office. It was her turf, she was in control of the task and the machine, he had to walk past all those capable people doing their non-secretive work — and then there he was. A man in a dress.
(I'm Catholic. I've earned the right to mock.)
The priest was out of line by approaching her with that line of argument in her workplace — or anyplace, really, that was not a place of worship. Especially then, when things were still so rigid and face-to-face confessions did not yet exist, his suggestion that Peggy unburden her soul next to the copy machine was inappropriate.
If not sinful …
September 17th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Uh oh…
Didn't someone suggest that Betty might be pregnant? It wasn't just the hurling — it was hurling on the way home from The Stork Club. Then, the Utz commercial interrupts…Make Room for Daddy. Hmmmmmm. Very telling.
That certainly throws the show and the status of the Drapers into a different direction.
September 17th, 2008 at 11:41 am
Hull, it was Roberta who found the "Stork" Club significant, but if two seasons in a row end with a surprise pregnancy, I will be mightily disappointed.
September 17th, 2008 at 11:42 am
@Anne B., so do you think the only appropriate way a priest can/could relate to his parishioners is to sit in the church, and wait for them to come to him? Does he have no role or responsibility outside the walls of the church?
I do agree having the conversation in the workplace wasn't appropriate.
But I think if he just sits in the church and waits for people to come to him without reaching out to them, he is failing at his job.
(And just btw, my husband is a priest, of the Episcopal variety, which I know is very different from a Catholic priest in 1962.)
September 17th, 2008 at 11:51 am
wisefish, I think that the reason Father Gil goes to people's homes is that this is a way to extend his reach — and grow the parish. And these would be social visits, unless (as in the case of hospital visits) he's visiting people who need to receive Sacraments and can't come to him.
Either way, Sacraments are part of pastoral duty, not social life. Peggy had been doing Father Gil a professional favor. His introduction of confession in that context was neither professional nor social. It was wrong.
September 17th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
I agree that Father Gil oversteps, but I do think it was more the norm in those days for a priest to be in your business, and that it might be a hard thing for him to know where to draw the line.
A Catholic Priest traditionally acted as more than a spiritual adviser, but also a moral authority, and the face of God. Because the church is a strong patriarchy, because church dogma called for unquestioning faith and obedience, they could meddle in the lives of lay-people with impunity.
September 17th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
I think seeing the Utz commercial was as simple as seeing Jimmy's face and remembering the humiliation. Their last interaction was very traumatic, even if ultimately it led to a good end. That's Jimmy for you. He must be a Scorpio because he punches right through people's defenses.
September 17th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
That winking woman at the end of the UTZ commercial seemed to be the slap in the face that finally made Betty KNOW..and that is because I think it tied with something she saw earlier, when she pulled that pc of glass out of her foot. She saw something when she was on the floor..you can see her looking toward the nightstand. She told Don that all she could find were cocktail napkins with silly advertising notes or something to that effect. so whatever she found did not seem important. I am thinking that the night(morning actually) that Don came home after the accident he stashed something in that nightstand and forgot about it and she found it and put two and two together when she saw the commercial. Something let her know that he was not alone in the car the night of that accident or that let her know where the accident happened. Once she saw that winking woman she KNEW and that was it for her.
As for Fr. Gil. I remember when our parrish got a new young priest back in about 1963 who was clearly not in step with the old guard. When I went to confession once he got me into a conversation about questioning the church and he left me a book about progressive Catholicism at the rectory on the window sill so I could just casually pick it up without seeing him or anyone seeing me. I don’t recall alot about the book except that it was a departure from the old church ways and advocated questioning. He also did introduce that new liturgy with the folk music. Remember this was when Pope John XX111 came to office and he was an advocate of branching out; the ecumentical movement. He was that fat, cute Pope.
So new US president, new Pope, the Beat generation out of the shadows and moving into the public awareness. It was the changing of the guard.
If the 1960s were a play, act 2 is a whole new ballgame. 1960-1965 is one thing and 1966 through 1969 a whole new world. The 60s were the dissecting line through the century. This show takes us there and it was a momentous time to be alive. It felt like an earthquake and we felt like one foot was in the world we always knew and the other foot in the new system of things. Some ran forward into it and others fell through the cracks and others clung to the past fiercly. It will be interesting to see these characters through this transitional time.
September 17th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
This has been bugging me for a few days. Is it just me, or did there seem to be a little bit flirtation between Duck and Betty at the party (when he walks in)? Even after the party Duck calls Betty "a peach of a girl" and tells Don to "thank her for me again". Is he just being a gentleman or is there something there?
September 17th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
My mother wasn’t much of a Sixties girl — she got married in ’62, and had all of us kids in a long line, starting a couple of years later. She and my dad really had no time to tune in, turn on and drop out.
Or stand up for themselves. Or do much of anything, really, except work and raise us.
But Mom does like to talk about Vatican II — which she describes as an “earthquake”. Vatican II made my mother happy. She has always believed in a world that is more open, more inclusive. Vatican II promised to bring that spirit to her creaky old Church. It never fully delivered on the promise, but oh well: one great Pope can’t do it all, can he?
In the world of Season 2, the first session of Vatican II would not have even started yet: but there are already progressive Catholics, and progressive priests. Peggy is a certain kind of Catholic (I would say she’s reluctant, not progressive, because she doesn’t participate). Her sister is another.
This is very clear from their discussions — and from Anita’s way of handling everything, from her conversations with her sister to her own resentment.
September 17th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
MarleyK I agree with you about the commercial… It is the "in your face" realization of your loved ones indiscretion. Very sad.
September 17th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
@429 simone,
The conversion between Betty and Duck when he arrives at the party is very interesting. I've capitalized the part of the dialog which impressed me as being significant [thank you iTunes for letting me review the EXACT wording].
Duck:
I'm sorry I'm late. My date canceled.
Betty:
Oh, you should have called. I MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO REPLACE HER.
[Carla enters into the dining room adjacent to the entry foyer. Betty turns and hands Carla a bouquet of flowers which Duck has brought with him.]
Betty:
Carla would you please place these in water and our head count is now seven.
——
I MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO REPLACE HER…
and perhaps Duck could replace (in a good way) Don the Devil…
September 18th, 2008 at 3:32 am
Don the Devil may be a philanderer, but Duck set a poor, loving dog out in the cold, cruel evening streets of New York City. Duck lost his family because of his own philandering and alcoholism, and also sold out Mohawk airlines for a "chance" at something bigger. Not to mention is was his idea first to make Pete use his father's death as a selling point. Ethically Duck makes Don look like a saint.
September 18th, 2008 at 4:31 am
ITA that Duck's a jerk! He's smarmy and takes these odd business risks, like getting SC to cut loose Mohawk for the aborted pitch to American. Don the Magic Wand is certainly no saint (and that's why I enjoy his character), but Don would not kick poor Polly the Dog to the curb!
September 18th, 2008 at 4:34 am
@ Rothschild…of course replace her could just be "I could have called Helen Bishop over!" But yea, it did sound like something else. Duck also obviously knows what Betty wants when he is pitching to Heineken "To be the perfect hostess, the perfect wife". It seems that Duck knows Don's wife better than Don knows his wife with this line.
@ Ellelque – I don't know if ethically Duck is any worse than Don. And I am sorry to perhaps sound cold, but letting a dog lose in New York City cannot compare to the way Don has treated many of the people in his life. Also – we don't know if Duck every cheated on his wife – we do know he was an alcoholic, but something about Duck doesn't strike me as the type to philander, and I don't quite know why. If he were that type, why has he not made the moves on someone in the office already? It has been 18 months. Of course, he did just hear that his wife, with whom he obviously wanted to reconcile, has already moved on with another man.
Finally, if Duck is drinking again, which he obviously is, why has he not crashed and burned yet? I suppose it's a slow burn. Duck is certainly an enigma.
September 18th, 2008 at 4:40 am
@Simone: Hey! In "Nixon vs. Kennedy," Ken Cosgrove mentioned that one of the reasons Duck divorced, besides the heavy drinking, was Duck's affair with a woman at a museum.
September 18th, 2008 at 5:39 am
@Simone: Do we know Duck is drinking again? Did he drink at the Draper's house? I though he just had tomato juice and then passed on the wine at dinner. But maybe I missed something.
September 18th, 2008 at 6:07 am
I thought that was a joke – "her name was rosetta, rosetta stone", but perhaps not.
September 18th, 2008 at 6:29 am
@Simone: Paul was the one uttering that "Rosetta Stone" joke….I'll have to go back and review to see what's what. But the other woman was real, I think.
September 18th, 2008 at 6:44 am
I believe the Rosetta Stone line was a joke, but the stuff about the affair was true. And I think it was the affair and subsequent fallout that made his drinking get out of hand.
September 18th, 2008 at 6:44 am
From what I have read, many believe that yes, Duck is in fact drinking again. He appears to be more upbeat, arrogant, and yes, flirtatious (going back to Betty). It seems like he has sort of got his mojo back, and perhaps one of the reasons he has sucked so bad at Sterling Cooper before "The Golden Violin" is a result of his sobriety. Hmm…
September 18th, 2008 at 7:18 am
Simone, when Duck was first considered for hiring, he was rumored to have had an affair with some chick, something that caused his dismissal from his last job. But of course the guys at Sterling Cooper would never count that against him.
September 18th, 2008 at 7:22 am
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nobodyssweetheart/28...
New graphic from my favorite artist of Betty bashing a chair! LOL
September 18th, 2008 at 7:26 am
Hey, if you click to see Dyna Moe's new graphic, click the site below the picture of who Dyna thinks is our mysterious "Mitch". It is so hilarious and surreal!
September 19th, 2008 at 6:26 am
@377 Deborah Lipp: I was also thinking about how much Dick Whitman is behind the scenes in all this.
Joan: "Someone who we think is dead, isn't." Like Dick Whitman?
@311: It strikes me that claims about the show's predictability reveal our own (all-too-predictable) predictions. We've been numbed, perhaps, by too much bad TV. I mean, yeah, it's really facile to say, like that troll did, that Don's going to jump from a building, or that Peggy and Fr. Gil are going to have an affair and/or Peggy is going to confess. Those are predictable predictions, but they're not what MM is actually giving us. Is it really predictable (in other words, a TV cliche) that Betty not find any physical evidence of Don's affairs? No. The predictable thing would be for her to find something she could confront him with. The unpredictable thing–the artful thing–is that she finds nothing, and she sticks to her guns with her accusation anyway.
I, for one, was always surprised that Betty could never smell those other women on Don.
In a later thread, Peter G. describes his take on Fr. Gil from the perspective of someone who was raised Catholic in the 50s. I think it's the best description of Fr. Gil's possible motives that I've read. From our jaded, contemporary perspective, we mistrust Catholic priests, and I think as a result we distrust Fr. Gil's motives, i.e., we think he must be sexually interested in Peggy, and we predict that he's going to act inappropriately. If he does, I'll be disappointed, because that narrative seems too easy, too much like what we expect. I'm much more inclined to think he's a nice, committed young guy trying to do his job in an old-guard institution that doesn't fit him well…not so different from Peggy, in that regard.
September 19th, 2008 at 7:32 am
@439 From the conversation in Nixon V Kennedy, Paul, Ken and Pete had heard the rumour that Duck was supposed to have met a woman at the British Museum. The Rosetta Stone (inscribed with Egyptian hieroglyphics and Greek) is in the British Museum so I guess that's tha basis of Paul's joke.
@444 I think in The Wheel when Betty is telling Dr Wayne that she knows about Don and other women, she says something like she has smelt perfume on him before…and worse, so on some level she has had evidence before, but nothing concrete enough.
I think it's interesting, as others have said, that she doesn't seem to have had a confrontation with him about him cheating until A Night to Remember. I always assumed that the reason for him coming home on time etc was because they had brought this into the open in the time between S1 finishing and S2 beginning. When he comes home in the early hours in the New Girl after the car accident with Bobbie, she does say something about him having promised not to stay out all night anymore, so there must have been some kind of agreement, presumably based on Don discovering from Dr Wayne that Betty wasn't ignorant of his affairs. But I bet it was handled by Don as damage limitation, and he retained control over the situation.
September 19th, 2008 at 11:05 am
I'm a longtime lurker – love the site! I haven't had a chance to read all of the threads from this episode, so I appologize if this is a duplicate. Something has stuck with me for a few episodes now. Has anyone else noticed how our dear Harry is unknowingly following Bobbie's advice? He has picked a job and is becoming the person who does it. He is gathering more confidence. No more "Mr. Sterling" when he talks to Roger. Even though the job isn't exactly what he had envisioned, it is working out for him. I see him with a whole slew of staff under him if the clients don't miss Joan's "work" so much.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
In response to two points above:
(1) The purpose of the dinner party — Back in Maidenform, Don was speaking to Crab Colson at the country club, and Crab mentioned that life was not rosy at Rogers and Cowan (a PR firm). One can only assume that Don later mentioned this to Roger, and that Roger saw an opportunity to woo Crab away from R&C. I don’t think the dinner had anything to with Heineken, brainstorming, or anything else.
(2) Father Gill playing a spiritual rather than something like Bob Dylan — Actually, it was not quite a spiritual; it was a song called “Early in the Morning” written by Paul Stookey of Peter, Paul, and Mary, which served as the lead-off track on Peter, Paul, and Mary’s first album in 1962. It was done in the manner of a spiritual, but was an original composition, like many of Dylan’s early spiritual-like compositions. As for Dylan, he was just debuting at the time as well, but did not really achieve any widespread acclaim until Peter, Paul, and Mary popularized two of his songs — “Blowin in the Wind” and “Don’t think Twice, It’s Alright” — on the top ten charts in the summer and fall of 1963. PP&M were at the vanguard of the folk/protest revival that Bob Dylan later embodied, and their debut album was one of the top sellers of 1962, spending many months at #1 on the Billboard charts.
September 19th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
@ #446 sdb:
I agree. The dinner party had nothing to do with Heineken. Unfortunately, Betty didn't see it that way. She thought she was part of this elaborate ruse — a set-up where she was the patsy. Duck and his big mouth. I swear, he reads situations about as well as Pete Campbell. Instead of complimenting Betty for putting out such a lovely spread, he gushed about Don's marketing prowess. Betty had spent at least a week planning that dinner, only for Duck to reduced it to some market research scheme, with her being the guinea pig.
September 19th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
Jen, welcome. No one has mentioned that, and you're right. But it has something to do with how men—even geeky, awkward men like Harry—are trained from an early age on how to play the Boy's Club game, but women are left out. Bobbie seems a little butch, doesn't she? It's because she plays in the Boy's Club.
September 20th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Duck probably came to the party late on purpose. He arrived at the beginning of dinner/at the end of cocktail hour so he could avoid too much pressure to sit and drink. When he is teased about ordering tomato juice, to take the heat off he mentions he will have wine at dinner . At the beginning of dinner,when Betty asks if anyone wants wine, he takes a sip of water to avoid answering. These are tricks that most sober alcoholics learn and practice well. I don't think he is drinking. If he was, he would be exactly at the point, or worse, that he was when he was let go from the other agency. When recovering alcoholics go back to drinking, they do not do it gracefully, the go back in hell-bent. It is a physical disease that takes over them, they can control how much or when they drink.
September 20th, 2008 at 10:49 am
[...] been some talk this week about the scene in Joan’s apartment, about whether or not the guy in the scene is in fact [...]
September 21st, 2008 at 8:00 am
Is Jon and Mad Men going to win tonight? There's a lot of talk about James Spader. Darn, he's got a few already.
September 22nd, 2008 at 10:01 am
To #449. Thanks for the reply, Deborah. This is why I love MM! Harry's evolution is in stark contrast to Peggy's. Harry gets a raise, then a minion. Peggy gets an office, then a photocopier. And yes, Bobbie is many things. Butch is high on the list.
September 27th, 2008 at 11:38 am
About Joan's fiance not being the same person – according to IMDB, it's the same character, but a different actor. The only male name that appears in the credits for both episodes (other than the names that I know go to other characters!) is "Greg Harris", played by Gerald Downey in S2E1 and played by Sam Page in S2E8.
September 27th, 2008 at 11:48 am
Emily, thanks. I wrote about it here:
http://www.lippsisters.com/2008/09/20/joans-fianc...