Open Thread: The Gold Violin
This is for anyone to discuss anything about this episode. You don’t have to be a “regular.” This thread is open early by popular demand.
Please read our comment and spoiler policies before posting for the first time.
September 07, 2008 By: Deborah Lipp Category: Lipp Sisters/Basket, Season 2
This is for anyone to discuss anything about this episode. You don’t have to be a “regular.” This thread is open early by popular demand.
Please read our comment and spoiler policies before posting for the first time.
Basket of Kisses: The unofficial blog of AMC's Mad Men. Where all the cool kids meet & greet to talk about Don Draper, Janie Bryant, Christina Hendricks, Jon Hamm, Matthew Weiner, & subtexty things.Columnist Froma Harrop talks about the series appeal viewed through today’s society and values
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September 7th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Also, who do you think Jimmy Barrett is telling that he laughs at them at night when he goes home? Maybe Don? Maybe Bobbie sic'd him on him after the whole bondage incident. Maybe that is why Jimmy invited the Drapers to his show. I am basing this speculation on the preview clip.
September 7th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
I am thinking he is talking to Betty.
Don humiliated Jimmy's wife, now Jimmy is doing the same to Don's wife.
September 7th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Just realized the MTV Awards are coming on tonight! Choices!
(Yeah, I'm still 12!)
September 7th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
In past years, the MTV VMAs have been streamed on demand via MTV Overdrive.
September 7th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Hey folks. I won't be watching tonight… I'm away at my brother's and won't be getting home until at least 11, maybe 12. And then, well, it's a school night. So I won't even be able to visit the blog until tomorrow night :- (
September 7th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
(It's a slow Sunday, so I'm starting early… Don't Judge Me!)
Tonight's Joan-inspired drink: The Scarlet Sashay
- 3 pt pineapple-infused vodka
- 2 pt sour cherry juice
- 1 pt bing (sweet) cherry juice
- 1 pt cranberry juice
Shake w/ ice, then strain into a martini glass. Garnish with frozen raspberries, to keep the chill and add additional flavor as they thaw.
September 7th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Joy! I just posted my Joan Holloway cocktail on another thread, but here it is:
OK, here’s my suggestion for the Joan Holloway:
Chop a couple of very ripe tomatoes and let them drain through a wire strainer to collect the tomato water. Save the tomatoes for the salsa. Combine in a cocktail shaker two parts vodka, one part tomato water, a dash or two of Tabasco sauce and a pinch of salt with ice cubes and shake. Strain into a chilled martini glass, run a twist of lemon around the rim and float a very thin slice of cucumber on top.
One hot but discreet tomato, slightly salty, but cool as a cucumber.
September 7th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
@Kay:
VMAs, plus Serena Williams in the U.S. Open Final, which was postponed to tonight because of rain! So many choices…
September 7th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
So, I'm racking what's left of my brain to guess which car in 1962 is the 'I've arrived' that Don buys. Jag or Lincoln? Vette or T-Bird? Bentley or Citroen?
September 7th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
I want that tomato drink! Sounds yummy. The other one also sounds good, like a sweet & sour Cosmo.
As you all know, I will not be blogging until after the show. I actually had an afternoon nap so I should be on until midnight or later (Eastern time).
For those of you who don't know, I live in a very vertical townhouse, and I have a desktop, not a laptop, which is upstairs, whereas the TV is downstairs, so there is no blogging during television.
But there may be drinking. You all are inspiring.
September 7th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
I can't come up with anything else that would attract someone's interest that much. It could be something phallic, but was there anything popular in the 60s that truly was phallic? We're slowly easing out of the 50s lifestyle and into the 60s lifestyle, I think something phallic wouldn't really put the time period a step ahead like a Warhol painting would. There's a huge link between Warhol and advertising (and also Marilyn), so it would be sort of upsetting to find out that Matt didn't take up the opportunity to include him during a year that was the beginning of Warhol's true career. I can't wait to find out what it is, though, I've been racking my brain about the possibilities. I feel as though something phallic wouldn't match with Cooper's taste, although it would be funny, but he doesn't seem the type to be out-dated with art especially since he wasn't out-dated with Rand literature-wise.
September 7th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
im curious about the car too!!! and the art.
@cliff – interesting on the spec about andy warhol given his early career was in advertising. however, his most famous pieces debut at the end of 1962 and that included the marilyn piece. also cooper is a huge fan of rand and japanese art……im very curious.
as for cars, im not sure which he will show up in. my husband is an exhibition designer and this past year designed an exhibit for the museum he works at called The Great Age of American Automobiles he's interested in seeing what don rolls up in too! BTW, my favorite cars from the exhibit were the 59 Cadillac Cyclone and the 63 Chrysler Turbine. The exhibit was wonderful, aside from the 5 rarely seen cars on exhibit there was a beautiful display of concept car drawings and period advertising artwork. am i gushing? hehe
perhaps the chrysler 300? muy classy.
counting down and waiting for my ice cream delivery. cant wait to read everyone's comments.
September 7th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Andy Warhol's famous exhibition was in November of 1962, so it is not inconceivable that Bert Cooper could be a recipient of an early work. This exhibit featured the Marilyn screenprints and the Campbell soup cans among other things. As Cliff mentioned, Warhol did a lot of advertising work in the 1950's. He was an illustrator. By the way, those soup can paintings sold for $1500 each – worth quite a bit more these days!
I don't know how to do links, but the information came from Wikipedia.
September 7th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
im gonna flex my art history muscle – warhol, good choice. im gonna put robert rauschenberg or jasper johns out there as possibilities.
September 7th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Week 2 of being stuck in a hotel room and unable to watch until the iTunes DL.
September 7th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Ready, Ready, Ready. Am looking forward to seeing Salvatore’s home life. Also curious about Cooper’s new art peice. How much you want to bet it is very phallic?
September 7th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
I thought a tomato-y drink would be good because Joan is a hot tomato. Also to a homage to her hair.
I could picture Cooper going for Warhol. You know, strange as it is, yo never hear Cooper go on about women. He seem to lack the sex drive of the guys. Could it be that Salvatore is not the only closeted man.
Cooper could be our Dumbledore?
I mean there has to be some closeted ther employees at Sterling Cooper.
I think your right, it might be Betty that Jimmy is talking about. Maybe he makes them the butt of his jokes in his show.
I told you that woman (Bobbie) was not going to go away easily. I still picture boiling bunnies. She definately is a "Hell hath no fury kinda" woman.
September 7th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
@Ellelque, my thoughts also on Bobbie and Jimmy.
On theme that hasn't appeared yet in MM is the effect of one's actions on one's family. In so many cultures the shame you bring onto yourself is also your family's shame.
September 7th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
*One theme*
September 7th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Just gotta say this – Right now got MTV awards on.
Currently Britney Spears, Hills chicks, Spiedi, Paris Hilton, Miley Cyrus and the like all in the same place. If a large meteorite came down from the skies at this very moment and hit that place. Our level of entertainment in this world would go up about 50 IQ points.
Sorry, just had to say it. Tired of them taking over my magazine & TV.
September 7th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
So, could you imagine if Jimmy let's Betty know that Bobbie and Don have been playing pants pool together. Now that would create an interesting tableau.
Don would be riding the couch at night for quite a while.
September 7th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
When Cooper says to Don "You know I know about you" (or something like that), maybe he is talking about Don being a womanizer. I feel he knew about Don and Rachel and now Don and Bobbie. Maybe he just wants to tell him to stay away from clients' wives.
September 7th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
last season pete ratted out don's past to cooper
September 7th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Anyone else a little nervous about tonight's episode?!?
Can't wait to watch it, but the previews are quite ominous!
September 7th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Cooper didn't seem to care about his dual identity last season. Why would he care this season?
September 7th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
The edits for previews always leave a lot of mystery. I hate waiting a whole week for the next episode.
You know Lipps, you should do an open thread when the Emmy's play this year. I would love if we could all blog the awards and fashions.
Curious to see what Christina Hendricks wears.
September 7th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
He didn't care, but it doesn't mean that old Cooper will not pull that out of his hat when he needs it. Info is power. He may use it to show Don he had his back, or get Don to sway his way on something.
September 7th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
rose – he didnt care at the time possibly because the information was of no use to him then
September 7th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
He could use that info to make Don stay at the agency, should he think about going elswhere in the future.
Don could never go anywhere if his Dick secret came out. (no double entandre intended.
September 7th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
I'm here and will be on during commercials…as usual. Since the title is The Gold Violin, do you think that's the art piece that Cooper has? Kind of an odd title but we are all smart people so I'm sure we'll figure out what it means.
September 7th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
I googled "Gold Violin", came up with a company that sells things for older people.
September 7th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
I think you're on to something Jan.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
That "Pearl Harbor" ending always makes me misty eyed. I absolutely love Affleck in that movie.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
@John: I thought Don's getting schnockered and going AWOL during Sally's birthday party brought plenty of shame upon Betty, leaving her to explain his absence and confront all those knowing glances. I also wonder if Betty would be more accommodating of Don's dalliances if he were more compassionate and open toward his family. Don has definitely been reaping what he's sown since the end of last season.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Here we go!!!!!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
I think that Cooper is not the kind of man to hold something over someone. It goes against Rand's philosophy. Doesn't it?
September 7th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
God, that car is beautiful… this is my favorite era of classic cars.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
That car dealer looks like Fred Astaire
September 7th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Don sold cars!!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
I like Don's big hair.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Oh, shit! I was hoping they'd have someone looking for original Don one day, and here it is.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Did he sell them or is he wondering what if?
September 7th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Ewww… creepy old man pickup line. Here's a tip, Roger: never reference your teenage daughter when hitting on a pretty young thing.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
I wonder about the Jimmy thing…the preview gave me the feeling he knows, or at least suspects Don and Bobbie are sleeping together.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Oh Pampers! World's greatest invention.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
Peggy-better clothes, but the ponytail returns.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
Product placement in new mother kits? How prescient, Paul…
September 7th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
On a slightly side note… Went to Bryan Batt's store, Hazelnut, yesterday and it's amazing! Makes me wish I hadn't just graduated college and had a job, paycheck, and home to decorate!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
its a pollack or de kooning
September 7th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
a rothko!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! beautiful
September 7th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Wow, Ken has some depth. I think Salvetore is in love.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Peggy = Jackie in the Daytime
Jane= Trouble
September 7th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
WTF?! Who *is* this chick?! What kind of agency did they scrape her up from?
September 7th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Joy, no worries you know Joan will straighten her shit out.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
you know Joan will straighten her shit out
*grin* That's my girl…
September 7th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
well my husband called it! once they said 10k and abstract expressionism we threw out three names……a rothko is very fitting for cooper
and also, while i would have loved a rauschenberg or johns, they were too current. cooper would want to make an investment in art, something that has made it…..which seems to be this week's theme as don's car is supposed to show he has made it
September 7th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Salvetore is going to develop something for Ken. I see it coming. Of course Ken responds to stroking of his ego.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
The Smiths were all over Jane…there goes that theory about them. The tall one is still impossible to decipher.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Delicious hot and brown…. clever…
September 7th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Hee! "Shorten your attention span"…
September 7th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Just checkin' in!
Delicious, hot & brown! Idris Elba? LOL!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
I'm a little confused as to where Betty's balls from the beginning of this season went?
September 7th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
i could write a whole post on the rothko piece and i will….later.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
I laugh everytime I see Brad Pitt get punched!!!!!!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
Slightly OT, but MM-related: A U of C Berkeley study reported at NewScientist addresses women dealing with overt vs. ambiguous/subtle sexism, finding that women sensitive to sexism may prefer to deal with overt sexists — “know thy enemy” as it were. I’m not one who buys whatever the latest study says (tomorrow’s may well say the opposite), but thought it might be food for thought among MM fans.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Wow, I didn't know Ken had it in him with the feeling the art thing.
I agree with others comments about Sal developing a crush on Ken. I'm glad they are giving those characters some story. I feel like we don't know much about Ken. I wonder if Jane will ever become interested in Ken.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
and what about that don flashback?
September 7th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Yes, I loved that Don flashback, miamimiami!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
ugh, 3 more hours until I can watch….thank god my colts are playing tonight!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
I think Jane has Don in mind. He is the only guy in the whole office who has not hit on her so far. He is a challenge.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Duck is very aware of that alcohol.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Cooper definitely reminds me of the Wizard of Oz…
September 7th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Nice reversal of Joan's line to Peggy in S1E2!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Don't mess with Red! You'll get burned.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Ooh, I like it Patti! Joan strikes me as a luscious cherry gone sour, one who can be intensely sweet yet still tart, which is why I went for a fruity drink. But yours is very era-appropriate!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Oh No she did int!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Jane=Trouble
Jane=Biatch
September 7th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Hmmm…Jane's a smart (if treacherous) cookie.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
She is going to cause Joan so much grief! I kinda like this lying little hussy. She is going to spice things up if they keep her around.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
but now jane owes roger……
September 7th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
and owes him her you know what…..
September 7th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
I like Jane!! Put that viper Joan in her place!
And she's a brunette! Yeehaw!!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Elleque, I like Jane, too, even though she lied to Joan. As much as I like Joan, it's fun to see someone not really be intimidated by her like the other secretaries seem to be.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Joan + Jane = Catfight
rawr.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Ugh, that sucks – some ignorant man overriding a woman's authority within the tiny little realm of power they allow her.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Does anyone sense a theme this week? I haven't got it yet. Too many different kinds of storyline. Maybe how one percieve things or other people is different? Paintings, roles, people?
September 7th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
I'm not surprised that she went to Roger. You know she figured he would talk to Joan about letting her stay especially since he keeps flirting with her. Joan is going to hit the roof!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
I like yours too, Joy.
Hey Noah, are you taking notes?
September 7th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
the theme my love is – Hello, i have arrived.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
I like seeing Joan with a little competition. She acts like she is the queen bee.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
One theme is young people not wanting to be told what to do.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Thinks Salvetore did the decorating.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
i mentioned in another post about how the couples apt's are decorated and how it reflects their personalities……salvatore is not letting me down
September 7th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
OT: How are my Florida peeps doing? I hear "Hurricane" Ike's 'bout beat some ass!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Title solved.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Sal is from Baltimore and he's known Kitty for years.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Kay, have you seen episodes S1 E6 and E10? Those are my favorite Joan eps, and they reveal that her personality is far more nuanced than "Bitchy Queen Bee"…
September 7th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
We should do this more often– Disregard our children…. Oh wait…
September 7th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
if ikes gonna beat my ass, at least i got see mad men! and im stocked up and boarded up just in case….no, im not nutty, i have a 10 month and im five months pregnant……got to be careful
September 7th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Great outhouse story!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Oh, boy. More driving under the influence.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Hey, pick up that trash!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Ewww! Just throwing his beer can. I grew up with the Indian (Native American) crying commercial.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Cuban babies! Lucky Miamimami! I bet they are cute.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
And littering
September 7th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Litterbugs!!!!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Now we know why it's called The Gold Violin.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Salvetore is flirting. Poor Kitty.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Joy….You mean Babylon when Joan showed her ass in the 2-way mirror! And Long Weekend when she dissed her lesbian roomie? Yeah, I saw them! And still dislike Joan's 'tude!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
the ten month old has papi's blue eyes and my brown hair. lets see what the stork delivers this new years…..
September 7th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Poor Kitty!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Well, this is uncomfortable. I wonder if Kitty knows/ senses something?
September 7th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Date night at Salvatore's house, only Kitty's not included.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Miamimami! Are you running from these damn things too? Figures I moved from Ohio to New Orleans 4 days before I had to evacuate! I'm not built for this!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Im in Tampa. If Miamimami don't get the shit, I will.
Poor Kitty.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
No definetly no pie for Salvatore!!!!No pie ever!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Yup, Kitty knows something.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Oh, sad as it may be. Salvetore is a more caring husbands that the straight one. Ironic!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
@Mami and Papi and Bebes…please take care!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
What about kissing her on the lips, Sal?
September 7th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Pine nuts and pineapple? Yeeeurgh. That's 1960s cuisine for you.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
He does love her, you can see that. He just can't help being from the other team. Poor Kitty and Salvetore.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
None of the characters on this show are as they seem, which is why I love it.
Do you have a favorite character, Kay? Obviously you dig Sheila (and I hope we see more of her – I'd love to see *her* confront Joan!), but anyone among the regular cast?
September 7th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Ellelque, true, but poor Salvatore! He could be a good husband for a guy and be a lot happier and so would Kitty, really. It's just sad all around. I am glad that they are finally showing his story line. Never would have thought of Ken the pimp being in it.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Aw, I like Kitty, she's seems to be so sweet and cute. She had a look on her face when Ken lit Sal's cigarette, didn't she?
Although it was naughty of Don and Betty to litter, I sure did love that dress she was wearing.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
I want them to have Ken fall in love. I would love it if they had him try to woo Peggy, Pete would shit.
Anyone notice that is a Pete free episode?
September 7th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Yeah, Kay if you had to be stuck on an Island with Joan or Betty which one would you chose? Oh and Don rescues you.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
@Joy….I'd say Don Draper, in slutty mode! LOL! Not the wacky Ward Cleaver version that made me sad!!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Snerk!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
"I'm being watched!"
Speaking of paranoia, has anyone seen Marge this season? She and Lois were my favorite secretarial extras!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Jane 1 – Joan 0
September 7th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Marge? She's the one who does the progressive insurance commercials—the one who "once thought she'd find a husband here"?
September 7th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Jane is an *excellent* foil for Joan! She's doing a much better job of it than Bobbie:Don.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
I was wondering when we'd see her gorgeous blue dress!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Don in a tux is teh sex!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
I'd choose Joan. She has more meat in case I have to turn cannibal.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Nice tux!
The name is Draper… Don Draper.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Yup – I felt their comic relief kept the show from getting too dark and soapy.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Ooooh shit.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
OMG!!!! Jimmy is gonna spill the bean!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Runaway SAB! – Blind fool
September 7th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Wait, is Sal's mom living with them?
September 7th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Poor Kitty! Maybe Ken can work the young Mrs. Romano over!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Sal totally filched Ken's ligther.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
I would totally take Betty over Joan on an island. Joan fascinates me, and I admire her brazen self-confidence, but she'd scare the hell out of me if I had to interact with her on a daily basis. Plus, I could con Betty into making me coconut dinners and doing my laundry twice a day…
September 7th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Burn!!!!!!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Thank God someone called his bluff! Even if it was asshole 'comedy' boy…
September 7th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Crap, meet fan.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
That's some awkward silence in the car.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
That's a loooong drive back up to Ossining.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Is Don on this island?!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Nice one SAB!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
OOH!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Oh, that was unexpected and unpleasant….
September 7th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
LOLOLOLOL, so much more appropriate than crying in the car!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
HAHAHAHA. "Break it to me gently" JUST after Betty throws up. Honey, Don makes us nauseous with his manwhoring ways as well.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
What an ending… I LOVE this show!
September 7th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
No, Kay Don will rescue you after spending time with them.
September 7th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
That's worse than Silly Putty.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
My question was if you had to be stuck on an island, who would you chose btw Joan and Betty?
September 7th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Peggy has a serious widows peak…. My granny always said the girl with the widows peak was the girl who won Miss American.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Yikes! I wasn't expecting Betty to barf.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
In his New Car! OH next week, she lets him have it.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
LOL, Karl! You are right. Throw up is much worse than silly putty. And to think she did this in his brand new car. So much for the new car smell.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Is Betty pregnant?
September 7th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Don is such a slut! The Unfunny Comic stole the show! He told homeboy go to a 'ho but not another man's wife! LMAO!
September 7th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
John, I think she is just responding to what Jimmy told her about Bobbie and Don.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
i HOPE betty's pregnant—-Drama Drama Drama!!!
September 7th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
BTW, "The Gold Violin" story is classic MM: "Perfect in every way… except it can't make music."
September 7th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
So The Gold Violin is "practically perfect in every way" just like Mary Poppins. Remember that line from the movie?
September 7th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Also, the Sashay was cobbled together with what was in the fridge, so it’s not terribly complex – I would love to add in some intriguing liqueur worthy of Joan’s enigma…
September 7th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Where did Chauncy go too?
September 7th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
ACD, Kay, Elle:
just watched the 11 advisory – miami and tampa look spared from Ike. key west not so much, but my family has already evacuated. its really over cuba and will be going through the gulf and then its anywhere from mobile to texas
September 7th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Men, you blame our crabbiness on periods, and nausea on pregnancy. Sometimes vomit is just vomit, and anger is just anger.
Nope, she is in turmoil because she knows Jimmy was right. It maifested into a stomach ache. Or maybe Don's a crappy driver.
Poor Peggy in the bathtub. She looks to alone and unhappy.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
I'm so glad Jimmie said something to Betty… and Don.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
And why do Jane and Joan have to have similar names? Seriously?
September 7th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
SAB's just mad that Don went to some woman she considers 'low class," like Bobbie!
Still, fingers crossed Don's gonna keep cheating! I can't take him being "good!"
September 7th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Time for me to say good night. Looking forward to next week's show. Have a great week, everybody!
September 7th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
My hubby has a lot of freinds and family in Cuba. Mountain area of Holguin. So we are on pins an needles for them.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
i think this episode was all about the theme of arrival which is directly linked to power.
as we discussed last week – don's world is slowly unraveling.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Jane and Joan…there's also Trudy and Judy, the Cambell wives
September 7th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
I think they decided to give Joan some real competition. She needed it. It will give her more conflict.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Can we please bring back 'Dig this.' into young people slang?
September 7th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Jane is either the new storyline for Joan, now that she's not with Roger. Or things will go south with Joan's engagement too… and we'll really see some drama.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
elle – we just saw video footage from Baracoa before the storm hit – the surge and waves were at some points were 10 feet high and already flooding. it really doesnt look good. im sorry to be the bearer of bad news. watching the footage brought tears to my eyes because we know they dont have the same resources. i still have family in cuba.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
@Elle: I hope your hubby's peeps are OK! Ike looks scary as hell!
@Mami: Good that Miami will be spared! Can't believe the Gulf again!
September 7th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Midge, Marge, and Margaret. Also, Peggy is often a nickname for Margaret.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Jan, Joy, Elle….y'all have a good night!
September 7th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Question before I go. Did Roger ever do anything after he talked to Jane? Seems he forgot and Jane kinda bluffed her way back into the job. She didn't know and Joan didn't know.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Oh yes, would the term coffee-colored girls be racist today? That is a line in the coffee song. Me, I'm a Latte with extra cream.
Hubby is a Cafe Con Leche!
September 7th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
I meant to add that tonight it’s good to be on the west coast.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
elle: you are too funny
September 7th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
SAB's whiff of Anti-Semitism….She'd really lose her lunch if she knew Don "lowered" himself to an affair with Rachel. Bwahahaha!
And every 7th episode of MM ends with vomit! WTF?
September 7th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
The gold violin is perfect in every way, but it can't play music. Like Don's life: appears perfect on the outside, but isn't what it seems. He isn't happy. Like Salvatore's marriage: it looks perfect from the outsider, Ken's, point of view, but Sal knows and Kitty suspects that it is a sham. It isn't what it seems.
Betty is this beautiful package, but underneath it all, she is "profoundly sad." And I think that her vomiting onto herself and in Don's new car was a wonderful visual of her being this perfectly beautiful thing on the outside, only to have it tarnished by what's inside (her life, her mind, etc).
September 7th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
re: Britni – Another image of the beautiful package but with "garbage" underneath was that picnic scene with the Draper family. Here's this gorgeous family on a picnic, but underneath is both literal and figurative trash.
Another interesting theme is this whole idea of "just being" and "just feeling" coming into vogue at that time period. It seems to directly contrast everything the characters are about. Each of them seems to be unable to "just be" or "feel" — i.e. Salvatore, Pete, Peggy, and of course Don.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Students for a Democratic Society – Port Huron Statement 1962 – written in part by Tom Hayden. Where were you in '62?
September 7th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Miss Who: I read another review that pointed that out, too, which I completely missed. It also mentioned Cooper's painting, which everyone thinks is related to his taste and his aesthetic, but is really just an opportunity to make money.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Nice catch, farnham.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
I wonder if Kitty knows John Waters? He would have been 16 at the time, but Kitty would fit right into Hairspray which was also set in 1962. And the whole gay thing (i'm assuming, I never heard Waters mention his love life).
September 7th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
I was thinking about the Baltimore/Waters connection too (and so very, very, out and about gay).
September 7th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
waters is out out out
love very early waters films. divine was a huge fan of Liz and based her early look on her.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
best ending evah!!!
poetic justice!
what great writing this show has, I would love to be a fly on the wall during a writing session
September 7th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Wait, so in season 1 we assumed that Sal lived with his mother (when Lois was listening in on his calls), but now we learn that Kitty came when he moved his mom up from Baltimore. So theoretically, if Sal was on his own in NY for a number of years he would have had plenty of opportunity to explore his gay tendencies. Hmmm…I'm thinking we need a Sal- the early years flashback.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
I was also thinking about the Jimmy/Betty thing. Betty thinks that Jimmy likes her, but in actuality, he is just playing her to get back at Don. Don had Jimmy's wife, but Jimmy can never have Don's wife. If he can't get back at Don that way, he can seduce Betty with the attention that he know she loves, and then burst her bubble of her perfect marriage.
Don got him everything he wanted, but he did it by screwing his wife. It's not that Jimmy even cares that Don was screwing Bobbie, but he cares that he could never be like Don and do what and who Don does. He envies that. Like he said, he's lucky he's funny, or he would never have gotten anywhere or anything in life like he has.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Jackie,
I saw John Waters at The St. Paul which is a hotel in, um, St. Paul. He was clearly a guest at a wedding and I heard him refer to the gentleman at his side as his husband.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Wait, John Waters is gay?
And I don't think Sal explored anything. Remember how he reacted when he was propisitioned? He is too afraid. His Mama, his job, and just all of the pain that goes with coming out.
September 7th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Could the piece of art possibly be an Andy Warhol painting?
September 7th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Unfunny Comic probably feels Don got as far as he did, not by hard work or intellect, but because Don's handsome. We viewers know Don used the real Don's credentials to get ahead. And Goodness knows what or who else he did to get ahead! BTW, I find Jimmy devoid of humor!
September 7th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Jimmy isn't funny! It's not just his lines. It is his delivery.
September 7th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
John Waters is totally gay, wrote a great intro to TN Williams memoirs…. Whether that was a facetious comment or not, his memoir (TN's, I mean) is great.
September 7th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Sorry, my sarcasm doesn't translate well online. I always forget to put a : ) or a ha ha. I love John Waters. I think he is brilliant! Early stuff was incredilby disgusting, but it made people think.
September 7th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
cliff-that’s what I was thinking. The phalic thing sounds more interesting though. Joy and Patti-there needs to be a “Noah” section for MM inspired drinks. You guys make me want to drink these concoctions right now, but it is Sunday and I live in a dry state. I will be prepared next week and join everyone!
September 7th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Ms. Golightly you can do no wrong, great name, great input… It's all there….
September 7th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
For me personally, tonight's theme was about arriving and the power that comes with it.
there were a few comments that really stood out:
"People buy things to realize their aspirations; it’s the cornerstone of our business. Between me you and lamppost, that thing should double in value by next Christmas" Cooper and
"Philanthropy is the gateway to power" Cooper
earlier this evening there was speculation about whether it would be a warhol. that seemed to obvious, which is why i decided to go with rauschenberg or johns. once there was a mention of abstract expressionism there was an immediate click in my head. my husband and i speculated on three possibilities – husband won out with Rothko. Rothko's most prolific period and when he officially arrived in the art scene was the late 40s and during the fifties. While this is about a decade before the setting of this show, it usually take about a decade before an established artist is really considered an investment. High end buyers INVEST and also, it reflects status. Ten thousand dollars in 62 is alot of money. especially for a piece of art. Cooper is showing how long ago he arrived.
Its once cooper has the talk with don that don decides to purchase the cadillac. That purchase is interesting because at the beginning of the episode you see that he was a used car salesman. how many times have we heard the sleazy used car salesman comment? talk about don draper arriving when buys that cadillac.
September 7th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Ms. G…Your posts are always on point!
September 7th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
and yes, early john waters was disgusting – but it was brilliant. i love female trouble….mink stole playing a little girl
September 7th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
I really, really enjoyed tonight's episode of Mad Men. Alot of great moments and it keeps getting better in each episode. I liked especially the opening scene with Don and the car saleman. I don't think Don was quite ready to buy the car just yet, although I could tell he definitely had his eye on it. The flashback scene was a great touch. The look on Don's face when the lady told him that he was a hard man to find and then telling him he was not who he says he is was absolutely a great moment in the scene. But when Don came back to the lot later in the episode, I knew right then, he was ready to buy that car.
I am really beginning to like the new secretary Jane alot. She is definitely not afraid to break in to Cooper's office with the guys and show them the new painting. They all thought she was not afraid at all to break the rules. Fantastic!!! I also enjoyed the conversation with Cooper & Harry. I could tell Harry was not there just to go over the numbers, but to give Cooper his opinion of the new painting. But my favorite scenes were with Joan & Jane. I was definitely rooting for Jane in tonight's episode. She definitely is giving Joan a run for her money and having the guts to stand up to her. Absolutely incredible. I also enjoyed the scene with Sal & Ken at Sal's apartment (which I thought looked absolutely fantastic). Definitely another great moment in tonight's episode.
It was great to see the party scene at the club with the Barretts and the Drapers was fantastic. That was my favorite part of the episode. I had a feeling Jimmy would definitely find out about the affair. I felt so bad for Betty at the very end of the episode when she barfed in the brand-new car, although a great way to end the episode, I could not help but feel for her.
All in all, great performances by Jon Hamm, January Jones, Bryan Batt, and Christina Hendricks (just to name a few). They all gave some really fantastic performances in tonight's episode. I am really looking forward to next week's episode.
September 7th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
Kay and ACD1985- thank you! I was afraid my sarcasm had caused trouble again. Thank you for the warm fuzzies. (no sarcasm there)
And thank you miamimami for the art information. I know very little about art.
I liked how Cooper called people into his office for their deep thoughts about the art work. And he really just sees it money/an investment and has no sentiment about the art. That was great!
September 7th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
@Mami…Pink Flamingos and Female Trouble are gross but damn funny! John Waters can do no wrong in my book, especially the REAL Hairspray!
@Ms. G…no worries! I'm rather blunt, particularly when it comes to my distaste for a certain character, so I'm right with ya when it comes to hoping comments come across as one intended!
September 7th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Concerning the flashback, I wonder exactly how the woman tracked down Don after he was discharged. Does the Defense Department keep a forwarding address?
September 7th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
don mentions his circular ad for the car lot. perhaps that how the name came to her attention
September 7th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
(haven't seen Gold Violin yet, but just thought I'd chime in re:John Waters) a bit of my favorite parenting advice came from John Waters, from an interview a while back on Fresh Air…He was talking about how surprisingly supportive his parents have always been, even of his early work…I don't recall the exact words, but he advised parents to always remain engaged with their kids, no matter how different the kids may be from your expectations, and whatever their passions, to nurture them…his words were something to the effect of: if your daughter comes home with her face covered in tatoos, instead of screaming, go to the library and check out a stack of books on tribal art, because otherwise, your kids will be lost to you.
September 7th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
I think she was tracking Don down. Not from the flyer…because she said something like you are a hard man to find. But, when he reacted like he did..,she said you are not Don Draper. Daughter? The real Don was older. Who would want to find him, but not know what he looked like? Whoever she was, it (the meeting) obviously didn't change his name change.
September 7th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Yes, I think he is referring to Don’s dual identity.
September 7th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
I’m so excited! I’ve been living on a freaking mountain in Virginia and now I’m in New Orleans and can finally participate in these!
September 7th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
I don't know. I think if she'd seen the name on a circular, she would have concluded that this is somebody else with the same name. Her reaction makes the most sense if she has some information that this guy is presenting himself as Lt. Donald Francis Draper.
September 7th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
He’s very much alive!
September 7th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
LOL Joy! I guess she is immune to the old Sterling Charm.
September 7th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
Don in the tux just about gave me a heart attack. First time I didn't like something Betty was wearing. I love that Barrett ratted Don out to Betty.
I love Cooper, tho. He has the right attitude about Rothko.
I think the Smiths are still gay. They will eventually teach Sal a thing or two.
I think the puking thing has been overplayed on this show.
September 7th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Jimmie is definately up to something! I sense it.
September 7th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
“I think I should hang up now. My dadd–er, husband doesn’t like me talking to strange men.”
September 7th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
I was surprised by the SDS mention. Smith & Smith must know some *real* radicals…I can imagine just how "shitty" that note they got with the manifesto was.
September 7th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Ohh, boy. Buh by, Jane!
September 7th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Jane is such a liar!!!
Ouch!!!
September 7th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
I wonder how long it takes Betty to plow the new deVille into the neighbour’s birdbath…
September 7th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
and that goes for jane, the car and the painting – all status symbols and symbols of power
September 7th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
So far, I don’t get what the heck the title of the show means. Maybe we will find out in the next segment.
September 7th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Joan’s been on my “shit list” since insulting Sheila! I’m sick of Joan’s condescending attitude to everyone! Jane’s younger and has the arrogance of youth on her side!
September 7th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Salvetore acts like he is going on a date.
September 7th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Oh noes, is Sal going to DR Ken? o_O
September 7th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
Where did Peggy go?
September 7th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Best Ending Evah!
I enjoyed Harry’s interaction with Coop and the Joan/Jane face-off. Joan was looking so pale that she was almost translucent. Glad to see Peggy included in the “young people” during the Martinson coffee meeting (see, I remember the name because of the dopey song!). Duck is SO drinking again. Poor Kitty.
September 7th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Night Jan, night everybody – I’m off to bed as well!
September 7th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Based on the aired teaser, looks worse for Peggy next week.
September 7th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
Thank you Miamimami… Everyone I know in OH called to give me a weather update for Gustav, as if I wasn’t paying attention! I don’t want to wish it on anyone else but I hope it misses NOLA…. Actually I hope it just magically vanishes into the gulf…
September 7th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Good night JAN and JOY! Ellelque, I’ll say a prayer for your family. And Ms. Darkly, I hope that you are out of the hotel and back watching with us next week.
September 7th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
I think young people now “Digg this.”
September 7th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
Better than “What’s up Dawg!” or that Hizzy Jizzy stuff. Felt like I was watching a foreign country during the MTV awards.
Good night all, my eyes are very tired from a long day at work. Will get on more tomorrow. Great speding time with you.
September 7th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
i am not going to speculate about betty being pregnant. and since i am, morning sickness isnt quite that projectile…
last season she was experiencing anxiety and stress. that spontaneous vomitting seemed more anxiety induced.
September 7th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
Betty puked because she was wasted. Girl can't hold her liquor! She even said that she'd already had too much when Jimmy handed her another drink. Plus, she was distressed by what she had been told.
Anyway, thought it was very well done the way that Jimmy seemed to lure Don & Betty to the party just to tell them off, so to speak. I actually do think he's kind of funny – but not when he's telling jokes. And the guy playing him does a really great job – especially in this episode.
The Sal/Ken thing totally works – it was a great excuse to get more out of two characters that they don't always get the chance to do a lot with. And Ken's words about the Gold Violin were truly great – yet another great metaphor for a lot of what the whole series is about.
Also dug the stuff with Jane, the painting, Harry & Coop, even the young ad guys – returning to another running theme which they haven't gone too deep into yet: the younger generation just doesn't care. Matt Weiner even said in his commentary for the pilot that this would be one of the show's themes.
Wish that Don flashback at the beginning was elaborated on further, but perhaps they're just giving us a little taste for later…
All in all, really enjoyed the episode – one of my season 2 favorites. Hopefully I'l get more analysis after sleeping on it.
And, unrelated: ABC1985, where in Ohio are you from originally? Just curious, because I grew up in the suburbs of Cleveland before moving out to the Los Angeles area last year.
September 8th, 2008 at 12:02 am
I'm mostly amazed that they can say shit and all its derivatives on AMC. I think I've heard the word at least two or three times this season, and probably two or three last season, as well.
September 8th, 2008 at 12:56 am
I think Jimmy found out about Don and his wife because Don left his tie there after he tied her up. I found the scene in the park a little over the top. I'm pretty sure littering wasn't accepted like drinking and sexual harassment at work was? But I do its realize its fiction. I spoke to some of my friends grandparents about how life was during this period, and they seemed to indicate that the show does over-exaggerate a bit. One guy (who worked in sales) told me that if someone would of treated women like at the office, that the other men would of kicked his ass.
September 8th, 2008 at 1:03 am
ihavesmokeinmyeyes: I don't doubt that Betty puked because she was drunk, but it was the visual that was so powerful, and a great way to end the episode. The whole episode centered on things that appear to be one thing and are really another, or appear to be beautiful but really are not.
The image of beautiful Betty in a beautiful dress spewing all over was just a visual metaphor for the theme of the episode.
September 8th, 2008 at 3:50 am
OK, so who's the lady in the flashback already?
I think the whole afternoon in nature hilarious because you see people who are 'rich' leave proof of their status as consumers behind them. Kinda a ballet o trash.
Kitty knows there's something wrong in her relationship but just doesn't have the savy to figure out what it is yet.
Cooper and his art were driving everyone nuts (too bad there wasn't video cameras at the time in his office) but the simple truth is art is an investment no matter what it looks like.
Jimmy was angry at the wrong woman. The whole thing is a reaction to something started by his wife as revenge against Don.
Joan……..time is on her side.
September 8th, 2008 at 6:10 am
You guys are right about Waters, I had totally blanked on his awesome Simpsons episode.
**First time I didn’t like something Betty was wearing.**
Yeah, I wasn't feeling that dress either, even though the color was gorgeous.
**Still trying to figure out if he was angry that Don cheated with his wife, Bobbie or it’s that a handsome man once again stepped in line in front of him.**
I dunno, he seems to make a lot of jokes about Bobbie like "everbody's had her", but I wasn't sure if it was part of his schtick or not. Bobbie was to the point when she told Don that Jimmy had to think he had a chance with Don's wife, so I figured it was just how they operated (semi- open relationship with Bobbie occasionally stepping out to close a deal). But since we learned that Bobbie knew of Don's rep, I think a lot of it has to do with the handsome guy thing.
September 8th, 2008 at 6:19 am
I think if Jimmy had had any chance with Betty he would have retaliated by sleeping with her. After her anti-Semitic remark, he realized that the only way to get back at Don was public humiliation. It's very telling when he says that Don is so low for sleeping with another man's wife. Jimmy would have done, if he could have had Betty.
I know I'm not expressing this well, I just thought they got it perfect. Except for the puke. They really need to stop with the puking scenes. There are other ways to express repressed feelings, they've done this one too many times. Besides, she should have puked on Don.
On another topic: I LOVED Sal's appartment! We had both the cookie jar AND the radio that was on top of his fridge. If the set dressers don't get an Emmy on this show, there is no god.
September 8th, 2008 at 6:33 am
I took the Betty comment to jimmy as anti-Semitic also, but I am so frequently wrong about this show (Duck didn't kill himself, Peggy WAS pregnant) I thought maybe the writers were really referring to him being "show people" which Betty with her background, would be raised to look down upon. Also, I don't believe that it has ever been stated or indicated directly that Jimmy was Jewish. So, does everyone think it was in fact an anti-Semitic comment?
September 8th, 2008 at 6:36 am
I would also like to comment on this episode that I loathe Jane and don't think Joan is anything like her. Joan can be bitchy and manipulative tis true, but is nowhere near the scheming little liar that Jane is – and she does keep it professional. Can't wait to see her get to Jane.
September 8th, 2008 at 6:39 am
^ what comment are we talking about?
September 8th, 2008 at 6:51 am
In a way, it doesn't really matter how she meant it. Any time you use the phrase "you people" you're insulting someone.
September 8th, 2008 at 6:55 am
Kay, you nailed it: A handsome man cut ahead of him.
Don and Bobbie were in a hotel; Jimmy wouldn't have found her.
Jane is interesting; she doesn't react how you'd expect it. She is putting off male attention, and I suspect there's a back story there. I can't wait to see how this plays out.
Notice how the scene in the car at the end parallels the scene in the car at the end when Betty cried in The Benefactor; also after meeting the Barretts at a fancy place.
Jimmy is definitely Jewish. Bobbie said it was originally Brownstein. And that kind of comedy is certainly considered Jewish comedy; it arose in the Catskills. The vast majority of standup comics of the era were Jewish, I can't think of one who wasn't.
Honestly, I laughed at many of Jimmy's jokes this week. As dark as the episode was (they just keep getting darker!), I laughed a lot.
September 8th, 2008 at 7:00 am
Can someone tell me who Mitch is? I can't find them in the bible. He seems to be giving Harry a hard time this season and I can't remember who he is?
September 8th, 2008 at 7:03 am
DB, I totally agree! It was a shitty thing for SAB to spew! So many people think racism and bigotry comes in the guise of some ranting dude wearing a KKK hood, and it's easy for *some" viewers to dismiss SAB's comments as not prejudice since she's a "suburban saint."
September 8th, 2008 at 7:04 am
^ i'm actually surprised people didn't make more of a big stink of that one guy having a black girlfriend—what was his name?
and i wish we saw more of her.
September 8th, 2008 at 7:12 am
Dub, what stuns me about SAB's anti-Semitism and Joan's racism is that if those words came from anyone other than a glamorous woman, both would be ripped a new one! That kind of insidous bigotry, that still goes on, is many times the most dangerous because it can be felt latently by the recipient of such behavior and it can be obfuscated as "cattiness" or some other bullshit explanation.
For me, both Joan and SAB are 2 nasty pieces of work, dressed to the "nines!"
September 8th, 2008 at 7:31 am
I was not dismissing her views as prejudice at all. I can't stand Betty. I think she is vapid and completely unsympathetic, regardless of Don's actions. I just wanted to know if others agreed is all. I said that I did think the statement was anti-Semitic – I am just frequently wrong about the show. Thank you Deborah for clearing up the comments about Jimmys background – I missed that. Although, I would like to point out that Bob Newhart who was very popular at the time, is a devout Catholic. (Although I don't believe he was a Catskills comedian).
September 8th, 2008 at 7:32 am
^ what does SAB stand for? i'm new here
September 8th, 2008 at 7:35 am
SAB = Stupid Ass Bitch
September 8th, 2008 at 7:42 am
Did anyone think that Jane was throwing flirty glances Ken's way in the scene where she was clearing the office table?
September 8th, 2008 at 7:46 am
@Carocat: Glad to know you're another, like myself, who sees SAB in all her vapid "glory!"
@Deb: Unfunny Comic's anger at Don screwing Bobbie clicked with me when he made some remark about being glad that he was funny. He probably felt Don doing Bobbie was just another way some good-looking man "screwed" him in life!
Anyway, I swooned at the sight of Don in that dinner jacket! Whew!
September 8th, 2008 at 7:49 am
Sal looked into Ken's eyes the way the Belle Jolie guy looked into his. Ken did not reciprocate. Ergo, Ken's not gay. Sal may have a humiliating outing in his future, or at least a horrified co-worker starting rumours.
As someone above mentioned, Sal is nicer to his wife than any of the straight guys. I think this is a bit of stereotyping, I mean, there had to be SOME decent straight guys out there, even in the Evil 60's.
When I see scenes like the littering, it always makes me wonder what attitude that we all take for granted now will seem absolutely horrific in 40 years.
September 8th, 2008 at 7:58 am
Haven't been able to get online until now. So frustrating.
Some very interesting questions of identity, and mistaken identity, this week. When the woman in the flashback says "you're not Don Draper," she's right in more than one sense. He's not the dead soldier she obviously came looking for, but neither is he the smooth and polished 'Don Draper' that we know, that Don created for himself. He's still Dick Whitman in a poor disguise. What gives it its pathos is that he's still afraid he's Dick Whitman in a poor disguise, terrified of being discovered.
That's what gave Jimmy's attack more power than he knew. Jimmy clearly loathes Don for his handsome upper-class facade. He revealed it fleetingly at the end of The New Girl. When Don says about his injured arm "old football injury," Jimmy couldn't disguise his hatred for the high school hero he figures Don must have been. He thinks he's a Kennedy, not a Nixon. But when Jimmy calls him "trash," he inadvertently scored a direct hit on exactly what Don fears most about himself: that the carefully composed facade means nothing, that his philandering shows he's still nothing more than the white trash Dick Whitman.
September 8th, 2008 at 8:16 am
I don’t think Unfunny Comic was mad at SAB until she made that shitty anti-Semitic remark about “you people.” She was the proto-Ross Perot!
Unfunny Comic was pissed at Don. He chose to confront SAB, which I see as her bad karma for perennial passive-agressive behavior. And his direct confrontation of Don was fun! Still trying to figure out if he was angry that Don cheated with his wife, Bobbie or it’s that a handsome man once again stepped in line in front of him.
September 8th, 2008 at 8:17 am
@Britni: yes, I agree her puking was partly a metaphor, and I picked up on that. I was mainly responding to all the people who automatically assumed she must be pregnant just because she puked. I just thought that notion was a tad silly, and she quite simply puked because she had too much to drink.
One more thought, I couldn't help but laugh at the obvious subtext of Sal lighting Ken's cigarette at the dinner table. And the look on Kitty's face after he did it. Ahh, film school has ruined me – everything phallic that I see now has some other connotation.
September 8th, 2008 at 8:33 am
Sal, sal, sal. I see how the Ken espressed a different side to himseld…..But why must you have a crush on Ken! Is Sal dreaming of having a summer place on Fire Island where he can paint while Ken bangs out on the typewriter? I am so sad.
September 8th, 2008 at 8:43 am
i don't think she puked because she was drunk…i think she puked out of being heartsick over don messing with bobbie
September 8th, 2008 at 8:50 am
I know this thread is about The Gold Violin, but the next episode is entitled "A Night To Remember". The most famous use of that phrase was Walter Lord's amazing 1955 book (and movie) by that title about the destruction of the Titanic. I've gotten to a point with Matt Weiner and his writers that EVERYTHING in this show has meaning … so I just wonder if "A Night To Remember" portends disaster. Certainly there are many icebergs looming in many character's lives – especially Don's, Peggy's, Betty's, and Pete's.
September 8th, 2008 at 8:53 am
I thought the puking in the new Caddie was perfect, even if it was an overused device.
Someone asked if the littering scene was realistic. I remember when I was little (late 60's), we used to throw garbage out the car windows all the time. Most parks had garbage cans though.
That scene took me back. Things have changed a lot in 40 years, mostly for the better.
September 8th, 2008 at 9:04 am
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I could have sworn that the guy Don sees looking at another car in the Caddy showroom (just before the flashback–ergo, seeing him kinda triggered the flashback) is Tilden Katz. He wasn't mentioned in the credits, but I looked at it again this morning and I'm still fairly sure it's him. Am I nuts, or am I Utz?
September 8th, 2008 at 9:15 am
#283, oooh, if that's true, then it explains why Don suddenly didn't want a Caddy. Good eyes!
September 8th, 2008 at 9:20 am
So Ken the pimp also gets modern art. Interesting. I also liked the conversation between old Cooper and Harry. High comedy. Harry is trying to figure out the right response to the painting, Coop keeps batting him down, and then he confides it's all about the money! Very good!
September 8th, 2008 at 9:21 am
I thought SAB meant Sniveling Ass Bitch, cause she is always whining. I still need to figure out who Mitch is.
Salvetore just seemed to care so much that he hurt his wife. With an exception to Harry, the other are not as sensitive. They hell sure wouldn't have done the dishes.
September 8th, 2008 at 9:21 am
Peter G., I agree. Episode 8 was the one title I didn't have, but it's an obvious Titanic reference, so I expect sinkage.
roots66, I think Tilden is fairly tall, that guy was short.
September 8th, 2008 at 9:23 am
Longtime listener, first time caller…
I only tuned into MM midway through Season 1 & was instantly hooked. Soon after Season 2 started, I found this delightful blog. It answers so many questions that some of the episodes had me wondering about.
I actually like Jane, so long as she's a foil to Joan; otherwise, I probably wouldn't like her so much. I think it's amusing how Ken is constantly trying to hit on her & keeps failing miserably.
And that look on Don's face when Jimmy called him "garbage" was priceless.
Unfortunately, I didn't get that Betty's remark was anti-Semitic, which is weird, considering I'm a minority. I honestly thought she meant celebrities when she said "you people" although "you people" is a generally demeaning phrase.
September 8th, 2008 at 9:25 am
SAB can mean all the above because both are applicable! Ha!
I hope that woman at the car dealership doesn't go the way of the Russian in the "Pine Barrens" eppy of the Sopranos!
September 8th, 2008 at 9:33 am
Art is an investment no matter what it looks like if its the right artist. At that point in time, rothko, pollack, de kooning were the right abstract expressionist. another poster mentioned andy warhols going for around 1500. cooper doesnt seem like the type to have the time for that kind of waiting on a return from an investment. there are two kinds of collectors – the kind that loves the artist and the kind that loves the acquisition/status of the piece.
Im not so sure that jimmy found bobbie tied up – wasnt he away on business?
did anyone notice that the martinson jingle sounds like Serge Gainsbourg’s Couleur Cafe?
September 8th, 2008 at 9:37 am
Ahh, thanks, Melville (this blog is so helpful!). I think part of the problem is that I only really started watching this season, so I don't have the same perception of "Betty as shrew" that others have. Though, since Jimmy is Jewish, I can definitely see why he would take it that way. And although I'm not crazy about the Barretts, I was really happy that Jimmy told Don off…Don deserved that.
September 8th, 2008 at 9:37 am
Jimmy knew that Betty is a sucker for male attention, so once she took the bait he decided to get back at Don by spilling the beans to Betty…he’s a shrewed son of a bitch
I’m really interested in knowing how the Joan/Jane rivalry pans out…why IS Joan so angry now?
^ yes, who IS the lady in the flashback?
And I feel like Kitty has no idea Sal is gay and I don’t think she’ll ever figure it out.
is there any possibility that Cosgrove is gay?
September 8th, 2008 at 9:45 am
@Melville: Please be unfair! I'm kidding…I think!
Seriously, I'm not sure how pointing out a character that, for some reason that escapes me, evokes sympathy can also be a raging anti-Semite is bad. None of the MM "folks" are perfect! As much as I like Sal and think Bryan Batt kicks ass, I felt really bad for Kitty last evening. It stinks how Sal brought another person into his personal drama. She seemed at a loss as to how to put a name on her hubby's attentiveness to Ken. Now, we'd call that "in the closet" or "on the down low" but poor Kitty is clueless!
September 8th, 2008 at 10:00 am
regarding the Rothko and Cooper’s taste: as Rothko was trying to go for a non-iconic universality. His New York studio is now a Japanese tea house, where you can arrange to take part in the traditional tea ceremonies. Cooper’s painting was an expression of his tastes and interests, but the possibility of it appreciating in value was just something he could not ignore and would deffinetely please him. After all he is is an objectavist. Please more Bert Cooper!
Before last night I thought that the Barrett marriage was open. But looking back on it it just mean that I was least interested in the tension from the “what is Jimmy going into Don’s office for” part of “The New Girl.” Jimmy still does not seem like much of a character, let alone much of a comic. I am not sure if that is intentional or not. Comedy is hard to write and as the parts of the show we find humorous are not what the characters in the show would find humorous so how do you write funny for them? But is was good to see a bookend to “The Benefactor.” I could do without the Barretts from now on, unless we could get a scene of Bobbie and Peggy explaining to the baffled men why Bobbie is a maternal type and Peggy is not. Though that is a fantasy sequence.
Ken and Sal had some serious chemistry. I could see Ken swinging both ways. The cigarette lighting scene… And it was great that Kitty finally got to speak. And when she spoke, well she was so refreshingly confrontational. I guess it is because they are Italian. And I love Sarah Drew! I’ve missed her since Everwood.
Who ever the woman in Don’s flashback was probably had no legal claims on the real Don Draper. I don’t think she could threaten him any more than that scene showed. Still I want to see more of her.
So was Bobbi a pioneer of product placement? Will Harry soon work on product placements as head of televisions (the preview scene has him mentioning not having enough time to go through scripts)?
September 8th, 2008 at 10:21 am
I’m not sure I buy into the idea that Don has a classic Madonna/Whore complex. Neither Rachel nor Midge could be classified as whores – I always thought Don was attracted to strong, independent women who were ahead of their time. Bobbie, Rachel and Midge all qualify as that.
The problem with Betty is not that she’s a Madonna, but that she’s a child and that’s what Don is put off by the most. That’s at least my perspective. I could be wrong, the amazing thing about this show is that nothing is black and white.
September 8th, 2008 at 10:28 am
@Deb: I wasn't surprised because think about how uppity (Ha!) she behaved toward Peggy last season, not even acknowledging the woman saying "Nice to meet you!" Think about how rude she was to Carla about Bobby turning blue. And the couple on the dark road, how she rudely commanded them. Unfunny Comic was, to her, a low-rent, loud-mouth performer with a crass wife…and Jewish! No-one she'd hang out with if not for Don's work. There's a serious sense of entitlement to SAB!
September 8th, 2008 at 11:28 am
#258: “Ken and Sal had some serious chemistry. I could see Ken swinging both ways. The cigarette lighting scene.”
It seemed to me that in this scene the director emphasized that Sal looked into Ken’s eyes while lighting the cigarette, but Ken did not look into Sal’s eyes. My theory is that one of the following possibilities is true:
1. Ken doesn’t know Sal is gay.
2. Ken wonders if Sal is gay, but isn’t interested.
September 8th, 2008 at 11:32 am
SB Dan- Don was very important to Jimmy and Bobbie. Jimmy's contract with Utz stood in the way of allowing Jimmy to move to TV. Don was needed as an ally in order to convince Utz that it was good business to let Jimmy have his TV show….with Utz as a national spoinsor. Without Utz concent, Jimmy doesn't get his show on ABC. Don was the key.
Jimmy's rebuke of Don was crocodile tears. He knew what was going on and while he may not have been a willing participant, he could have stepped in earlier. But as he said, everyone got what they wanted and getting to TV was more important than fidelity in his marriage.
September 8th, 2008 at 11:33 am
First time commenting… I'm wondering if Roger isn't intentionally trying to make Joan mad in order to get back at her for getting engaged. He didn't seem to be too concerned about Jane getting fired when he thought Don had done the firing, but as soon as he found out it was Joan he was all over it. And then (purposefully or not) didn't make things okay with Joan like he told Jane he would thereby creating another angry Joan moment. I think Roger wants Joan to realize that she doesn't really want to marry the doctor but is doing it in a not very nice way.
September 8th, 2008 at 11:37 am
kassy, welcome. It's a good point. Roger is a very manipulative guy.
September 8th, 2008 at 11:37 am
**And I feel like Kitty has no idea Sal is gay and I don’t think she’ll ever figure it out.**
Unless he doesn't see the note she tied to his fishing pole.
September 8th, 2008 at 11:37 am
But that's why the conversation with Cooper was so wonderful. I love, love, LOVE me some Bertram Cooper. What a sage. Bert essentially gave Don the "you'll be shocked…" speech that Don gave to Peggy, but in his own Cooperific way. His telling Don he could come out from behind the curtain and sit down and enjoy the show, was basically him saying that Don didn't have to rely on all his ruses and manipulations any more. That he was at the point where whoever he was in the past no longer mattered — that it was his present and his future that was most important.
Also, he's now at that point where having the kind of backstory that he has will only add to his aura. When you're on your way up, having that kind of past could be a hindrance, but once "you've arrived," that sort of thing is celebrated — it's what makes you…legendary. Think how all these powerful guys are always trying to convince people that they're self made and from humble beginnings. George W. Bush tried to cultivate this image of himself as a being a hick from the backwoods of Texas, whereas the reality is he's an old monied Connecticut Yankee. Donald Trump wants you to believe that he started with nothing, but the reality is his grandfather had amassed a decent chunk of change from the Klondike Gold Rush in Canada, and his father was himself a New York real estate tycoon. They love to use that up-from-nothing story, but then become annoyed when they encounter someone who actually did it.
Of course, the irony of Don's professional ascendancy is that his personal life is now more of a shambles than ever. As much as he may have taken Betty for granted in the past, he's really going to need her and what she represents now.
September 8th, 2008 at 11:45 am
re:#300
@kassy:
my husband and i were discussing this last night. he felt that Roger's motivation was definitely at getting under Joan's skin, because he never followed up with it. I also felt that it gives him the upperhand with Jane because now she owes him. She is an object that all the young men want, the hot new commodity so to speak.
another thing we discussed and he mentioned, was the discussion between Cooper and Don. He mentions to don that he knows a little about his past before making it seem like he is gving access to a very priviliged world. It seems that Don is a pawn. perhaps this is a theme in DOn's life to look at, especially since it seem that things continue to unravel in his world.
September 8th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Duck usually bugs! But it was rather sad to see him, after his fighting for the hiring of young workers and watching birds with the coffee guy, get dissed by Cooper for the arts committee or whatever the hell it was Don came aboard.
September 8th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
This is the first chance I've had to weigh in, and already almost 300 comments! I need to watch this again, but here are initial impressions:
Betty: I thought the puking was a combo of drinking too much and her anxiety over what Jimmy revealed to her. she is completely wide-eyed with terror in the car prior to the puking. But they totally need to stop the puking – it is overused. And I definitely thought she was being anti-Semitic.
Jimmy: while he is wrong about how Don and Bobbie's affair started, I don't think it really mattered after the first time. Don kept going back. Even while disliking her. That is f***ed up. Despite all of of Jimmy's obnoxiousness, he is really is quite unique amongst this whole cast of characters in terms of his self-awareness and expressing himself. And yes, it was classic when Jimmy called Don garbage – he hit the nail on the head. Except for the time when he insulted Mrs. Utz so badly, I kind of like Jimmy! I think he's funny.
Jane: I knew she was trouble when Joan had to tell her to go get a sweater in The New Girl. She was plainly insubordinate and rude to Joan, and she is a liar. I think she's a total climber, who is disregarding anyone in between to get to the top. She sure liked tempting the guys by unbuttoning her blouse, but she completely shoots them down otherwise. It was funny to see Ken get ruffled when she asked him if he was an accountant.
Joan's got her bad points, but I am totally on her side about this. I would have escorted Jane out of the building. I feel bad for Joan – things are changing for her quickly, and imagine how she must feel by being undermined by her ex-lover at work. She sees Jane is becoming her replacement right under her nose. I usually like to see Roger, mainly for his one-liners, but I thought he was just evil in this episode. I want Joan to get some sort of revenge on him like Don did (but please, no puking).
Ken: he is not gay. he bolted as soon as he sensed Sal was making eyes at him. He couldn't get out of there fast enough. I think they are portraying him as a typical bachelor type who just happens to be a good writer as well. Poor Kitty! Sal is miles ahead of so many husbands on this show. He knew when he was wrong, and he apologized. But I wonder what their sex life is like?
"The Gold Violin" – may be perfect and beautiful, but it's absolutely useless for anything other than being admired for its beauty!
Anyone notice how Peggy was wearing that gray and white checked suit that she previously wore to church? – this was the scene when one of the young'uns called her "sweetheart" while telling her to play the song for Martinson's coffee. (The times are a-changing, but some things are not.)
September 8th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
A couple of comments on the comments that appeared while I was drafting my magnum opus above:
@rl, I'm not sure we know that Jimmy knew about Don and Bobbie earlier, but he probably does value his TV show over fidelity in his marriage. He'll be OK since everything on the business end turned out all right and he got the chance to stick it to perfect Don and Betty.
I'll have to watch the episode again, but I thought that Bert Cooper's message to Don was cryptic. I thought it could have meant either "don't worry, you're hitting the REALLY big time" or "you're starting to hit the big time, so deal with whatever is going on in your past."
@kassy, I agree that Roger is completely trying to get under Joan's skin. They broke up; he can't believe she's engaged, and he's not happy about it. Funny thing, didn't he break up with her after his heart attack? He's totally screwing with her.
September 8th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
"Jane reminded me of Joan’s comment in season 1, about how the new models are comming out soon with bigger fins. Jane is in direct competition with Joan. For the first time, there is someone who represents a genuine threat to Joan’s Queen Bee status. Jane can play the game every bit as well as Joan can. This is going to be interesting."
Jane appears to be the NEXT Joan — but a younger version. We know Joan wasn't too happy about her true age being revealed, then comes a younger version of her (albeit brunette) who is being pursued and helped along by Joan's former lover, Roger Sterling. For all we know, Joan may have taken that exact route (secy to Draper, hand-picked by Roger) to obtain her powerful office manager position. I think she is feeling very old and threatened by Jane. And I think she wants to marry whats-his-name just to get out of the race, because she's not relavant anymore — because marrying is her only other option.
September 8th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Madwoman: I totally agree with you on the Bert Cooper message. I have a feeling that he meant the latter…..
Last night's episode was one of the best! I immediately watched the re-run.
Also, excited that we are going to see Colin Hanks again….really liked that storyline.
September 8th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
LOVE THIS SHOW! Sorry, just had to shout it. Last night's episode was fantastic – digging so deep and finding even more layers – how deep has Weiner thought this out, I really wonder?
Things I loved: Don's hair in the flashback (seems like the more repressed his hair is with the pomade/gel the deeper he is into the Draper persona), Joan firing Jane, Joan finding out Jane was not totally fired and Jimmy destroying Don with his revelation at the end – mainly because of Jon Hamm's perfect reaction shot.
I love how the show so subtly demonstrates the social changes happening right under the characters' noses – from the Rothko itself to the way the Smiths were dressed (without it seeming to cause too much attention) to the replacement of Marilyn for the Jackie/Audrey Hepburn concept (Joan into Jane). That's how social change happens, without anyone really noticing. It seems to me that the latest ad pitches we've heard about, beginning with the both the cigarette campaign and the "Carousel" for Kodak, are also beginning to show those changes – advertising shifting from the simple facts about the product to feelings the products evoke – think of both the Maidenform and coffee pitches in the last two weeks.
As for what happened on the show, I loved the confrontations – not just Joan and Jane, but also among the Barretts and the Drapers. Of course, those confrontations were followed up by yet more evidence of all Betty and Don can't talk about. I totally think that Bryn Mawr Betty was making an Anti-Semitic comment. She may not herself be bigoted, but she sure was looking for the worst thing she could think of in the moment. Only her perfect WASP upbringing prevented her from pulling out the "k—" word. It was very Dorothy McGuire/John Garfield in Gentlemen's Agreement – about how even the "nice" people allow bigotry to flourish.
And poor Kitty and Sal. I heard Bryan Batt on a radio interview today (on Sirius OutQ) and he stated that he did not think there was anything between Ken and Sal – it is an unrequited crush. He also maintains that Sal has no real understanding of his true nature, and is trying desperately to live the life people think he should. Batt said Sal really cares for Kitty, and vice versa, which just makes it worse for the both. Batt also had nothing but praise for the actress playing his wife.
As for the mother, I am pretty sure that Sal mentions Kitty "came with" his mother when she moved to New York. She may not be living with them, but I am betting is nearby and was there for a little evening TV watching.
September 8th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
miamimami, I'm not sure Coop was referring to Don's past; he's also very interested in Don as a person, you and I are alike blah blah, Ayn Rand blah blah. By the end of the conversation, it felt like THAT was what he was referring to.
September 8th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Also, can we just get past the "break-in" part of this? Cooper's door was unlocked. They violated office protocol, but they did not "break in."
September 8th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Also enjoyed more of the SC office this episode! The new faces–Jane, the Smiths–are welcome to this viewer!
September 8th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Deb… I don't know if I agree about Betty's antisemitism. I think that the 'company line' is to be nice and not antisemitic, but when backed into a corner she growled like the wasp-ish tiger that she is. (worst combination of metaphors ever.)
I'm having a hard time believing this is the first time that Bobbie has cheated, or that Jimmy has known about it. And, btw, no way does that guy keep it in his pants. Someone with that face and now he's famous? No way.
Also… he told Don that he should stick with whores. That has to be about the most upsetting thing you could say to him. Because, y'know, everyone knows about him.
September 8th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
@ Deborah – i initially thought that the same thing, including the blah blah blah ayn rand…haha!
but when miamipapi and i were dissecting the show, he brought up that point of Don possibly being a pawn in a much larger game. i had never thought of it from that perspecptive before, which is why i am curious to revisit certain aspects of Don's character and life to see how fitting this analogy is – which is why it made me rethink that cooper comment.
i also love how at the beginning of the conversation don says, i didnt do it alone and cooper responds Fascinating
September 8th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
@Roberta — Oooh, I didn't even connect Jimmy's "stick to whores" comment with BCD "everybody knows"!! OMG that must have killed him, poor Don.
September 8th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Jackie-Just because Sal speaks to his mother in Italian, doesn’t mean they live together. I had pictured Sal in season 1, living alone, with his mother having a seperate apartment somewhere else. I was surprised to find out that Sal was from Baltimore. I had always pictured him as a native New Yorker, right from little Italy. It was heartbreaking to see Sal and Kitty together. He doesn’t treat her badly, but he doesn’t love her.
Sal has a crush on Ken, but it’s like the Stevie Wonder song, “My Cherie Amour,” he wants him, but he can’t have him. The way Sal kept the cigarette lighter is the one someone keeps a token from a failed relationship. However, in this case, there was no relationship. The cigarette lighter is the closest he is ever going to get.
When Smith and Smith first mentioned Michigan, my first thought was, isn’t it too early for the Port Huron statement? When they mentioned SDS, my exact reaction was “Oh my God! “Oh my God! The outside world has intruded into Sterling Cooper!”
Jane reminded me of Joan’s comment in season 1, about how the new models are comming out soon with bigger fins. Jane is in direct competition with Joan. For the first time, there is someone who represents a genuine threat to Joan’s Queen Bee status. Jane can play the game every bit as well as Joan can. This is going to be interesting.
When Jimmy called Betty, do you think she was flirting with him on the phone, or just being nice?
September 8th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
last night’s episode was AMAZING! so well written … and all these posts nail the true meaning right on the money … first thing i do monday mornings is log on to see everyone’s comments (can you tell i love my job
)… keep up the good work!
September 8th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Mami….I was thinking along the lines as you and Papi in that Don's a good "face" for Sterling Coop. Literally, giving "good face" for the company. He shows up at some party in a tux, and looks like a Ken Doll. He's got a Purple Heart, and the company has a war hero at the helm. He's known as a "rainmaker" for the agency. And he can and does use that sexual charisma. In a way, Don may be "pimped out" by YodaBert, a man who's main concern is making money, no matter the cost.
I've got a "bug" in my ear at the moment, so I hope that made sense!
September 8th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
@ del #288 (Welcome!)
Unfortunately, I didn’t get that Betty’s remark was anti-Semitic, which is weird, considering I’m a minority. I honestly thought she meant celebrities when she said “you people†although “you people†is a generally demeaning phrase.
I don’t want to be unfair to Betty, but I’m Jewish and I definitely took it as anti-Semitic. So whether or not she meant it that way, I have little doubt that Jimmy took it that way as well. It gave him just another reason to stick it to the Drapers.
September 8th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Yes, Kay, because as we saw in the meeting with Harry, Bert is really an accountant at heart (takes one to know one).
LOL at the YodaBert
September 8th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
YodaBert – LOL!
I agree – he's the Face. He's hitting the big time, but for Bert, money is the bottom line. Should Don do anything (or have anything in his past) that would screw up SC's image, especially as he hits the big leagues, woe is him. The higher Don rises, the harder he'll fall.
He's going to be hitting the society pages more and more in his tux as he enters the world of philanthropy. And that means more pictures, and more people who may see him and say "that's Dick Whitman!" like poor Adam.
September 8th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Yodabert, Kay your names crack me up! OK, still wanting to know who the hell Mitch is and why he doesn't like Harry.
Yes, Don is a good face for the company.
September 8th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Something interesting from last night’s episode that other posters haven’t talked about yet is how wrong Jimmy is in his analysis of Don’s affair with Bobbie. Don was never the pursuer in that relationship, he played a perfect reluctant lover – even if he did probably enjoy being pursued so aggressively by Bobbie. Also, Don didn’t actually do any of those things for Jimmy. When Jimmy says: “You gave me everything I wantedâ€, it’s actually Bobbie that got all the work done but she gave credit to Don in order to have more opportunities to be around him.
It always seemed to me Don was not interested in Bobbie, but just liked the attention and probably needed a good lay. Poor Betty, as beautiful as she is, must not be a lot of fun in that regard either. So Jimmy’s assessment that Don did all this work for him just to get to sleep with his wife is dead wrong. Also, I like the nickname Unfunny Comic, but SAB is way too harsh.
Also, ‘you people’ comment was definitely anti-Semitic and definitely very Betty Draper.
September 8th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Yeah, who is Mitch? I've been waiting for someone to answer Ellelque's question from earlier. Who is this cat?
September 8th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Roberta, thanks for the Myspace add, you have a very pretty voice. I am going to make you my Myspace music for a while.
September 8th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Betty’s remark was definitely anti-Semitic. “You people” are crude and vulgar. Not only is this classic coded anti-Semitism, it’s almost exactly what Francine said about Boca in Marriage of Figaro, and what Pete said about Rachel in…in…I think that was Marriage of Figaro as well. When you hear “pushy” it’s anti-Semitic, just like when you hear “uppity” it’s racist. No one actually has to mention Jews or blacks.
I’m actually surprised Betty said that, because she (lightly) slapped Francine for saying it last year, but I do think it’s telling, because what Betty wants more than anything is to surpress and pretend, and “vulgarity” is its opposite. Betty is willing to be anti-Semitic in order to get away from “vulgarity.”
del, we don’t all feel that Betty is a shrew. She has, perhaps, more negative qualities than anyone but Pete, but we don’t all hate her.
SB D, I don’t think there’s any issue about Betty being a good or a bad lay. Don has a classic Madonna/Whore (or Jackie/Marilyn) complex, and he can’t let himself go with Betty the way he can in an affair.
September 8th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Hi, all. Usually I just read the comments, because I don't have a lot to add that someone else hasn't already said (and, it's just more my personality to "lurk").
But that said, I have to pop in and stick up for Betty a little bit. I understand that a lot of you find her annoying as a character, but now we've added anti-Semitism to her list of sins? Have we forgotten her sentimental, light-hearted recounting of her first kiss (which was with a Jewish boy)?
I just don't think that the foundation has been laid to presume that Betty specifically meant "you people" as a racial slur. I'm not saying that it COULDN'T have been meant that way, but I would think that Jimmy's racial or religious characteristics would have been the last thing on her mind, in the face of the insinuations he'd just made.
Jimmy had invited them to a gathering of show people and "celebrities." To me "you people" would seem more applicable to that fast-living group than to any specific racial or religious group, given the context of the comment. But the line is open to interpretation — and was probably left that way intentionally.
Just had to play a little devil's advocate . . . back to the shadows!
September 8th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Watcher — I was thinking the same thing. I thought it was the show biz people she was referring to, but I guess the MM gang wanted it to be open to interpretation.
September 8th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
I don't think Cooper's motives toward Don are that insidious. Don is only a pawn in as much as he's needed to make money for the firm. Cooper knows he has Don's loyalty, in the same way Don has Peggy's. Remember Cooper's words to Don last year: "you never know how loyalty is born." I suspect that sentiment came into play not only when Pete blackmailed Don, but also over the Menken's fiasco. Cooper must have silenced that whole deal, otherwise I can't imagine why there hasn't been talk about it. Cooper is definitely Don's protector — just as Don is Peggy's.
One of the theme's of this episode — and the show overall — is about leaving shit behind. I think that's what Cooper was trying to tell Don.
September 8th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Hullaballoo, I see what you're saying, but I see the show's theme as being about how you just can't leave shit behind, no matter how hard you try.
I do agree that Bert is Don's protector and mentor, and gives guiding insights. I don't think his motives are insidious, but he might be giving a small warning signal because of the small bit he knows about Don. From Cooper's perspective, SC is the ultimate bottom line. Don better not do anything to f*** it up.
I do love Bert's little nuggets of insight. It would have been interesting to see the "one never knows how loyalty is born" line applied to the Joan and Jane scenario…but Jane just up and attacked Joan, putting the age issue front and center. It's war now.
September 8th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Oh, right Madwoman, I agree. I guess I wasn't clear. It's not just the leaving shit behind — it's the consequences, and what results when you do that. Sometimes things turn out okay — you get away with it — but sometimes the universe strikes back, and there's hell to pay. But ultimately, all you can do is just move forward. Dwelling on it won't change anything.
September 8th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
I think I have read every post. I didn't see this thought posted yet-Everybody is so happy that Jimmy stuck it to Don AND BETTY. Why did he have to stick it to her as well? What a horrible way to treat a person. Jimmy doesn't know her as well as we think we do. Just because she is pretty and married to "garbage" doesn't mean he should crush her fantasy world. I thought it was terrible of Jimmy to present it in this way. Was it just to get at Don even more through his wife? He's disgusting and thoughtless for this. Stick it to Don not Betty. If he wanted to get to Don through Betty, there was a smoother way to do it. I mean he grabbed her arm and had a horribly sinister look in his eyes.
From the way he was talking, he also doesn't know it's over.
And I agree Jane is a lying, coniving little bitch. She is no Joan. Joan's just a bitch.
September 8th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Ms. G….I chalked it up to Karma! SAB is passive-aggressive BIG time and sometimes the universe gets payback in the craziest way. Unfunny Comic sized up SAB as someone who just loved compliments, so he laid it on thicker than horse shit over the phone. And I bet part of him sized up her anti-Semitism as well, before her lousy "you people" comment. He knew she wouldn't be friendly to him, some not cute Jewish comic, but for Don's work.
Elle…I'm at a loss at who Mitch is too!
September 8th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Elle, Kay… I think Mitch is the guy that Harry shares an office with.
September 8th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
@ Hullaballoo re #326
i dont think cooper's intentions are insidious. just along the lines of this is your purpose, this is the big picture. does he have some knowledge about dick whitman and the menkin debacle – yes. does he judge him or antagonize him for it – no. but, he mentions it to remind don who is really in control and what he feels the bottom line really is and it reminds Don of who's got his back so to speak. also, reflecting on the conversation, he is playing mentor by opening these doors to Don. he's about to enter a social society that is actually very small and hard to get into.
don needs to walk the line – betty is the trophy wife he needs to be seen with.
the recurrent theme for me was one along the lines of being very Debutante – " I have Arrived" and with it, the power and status it brings.
Ms. G – i agree about the Jimmy/Betty scene. He was so bothered and angered by Don's actions and i think, more with his wife but took it out on Betty – that was in very poor taste. I think it shows how angry and impotent he feels around Bobbie. He could never get to her like that or get away with that kind of behavior. Betty is different kettle of fish. he could have just confronted Don, but he really wanted to F*** him over. Dirty move, but effective.
September 8th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
SAB used her therapist to get to Don about his affairs. So what's the difference in Jimmy using SAB to get to Don? His confronting Don was like a cherry on top!
September 8th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Great episode. I didn't know Jimmy was Jewish. I think I was in denial bc every time I see him, I grit my teeth. AS vicious as he was, I didn't think it was such a bad thing for Betty. I mean, it is hurtful as hell. It's brutal. It's vulgar, I guess. But I don't think it's such a bad thing for someone like Betty to actually hear the blunt truth from someone else who has been hurt. And say what you will about Jimmy, he was hurt. He's always been a horrible character, ready to kick people where it hurts but I always think it's salutary to hear the plain truth. Because the thing is: You can't run away from it otherwise. You're forced to deal with reality and, ultimately, this is not bad. In a weird way, I wonder if this is what Betty found so appalling: that someone had baldly voiced what she intuited. As to his motivation, he's just one of those assholes who wants to take others down when he's in pain.
Also, I have dvr and there were a couple of lines that I still couldn't catch no matter how many times I've rewound it. The first is Jane's line right after she mentions that Cooper is not in his office. The second is the line that Jimmy tells Betty that clues her in that Bobbie and Don are having an affair. Something about "look at them… MUMBLE MUMBLE MUMBLE". I may be losing my hearing. Can someone please enlighten me?
I hate Jane but I think MM is better with her. She loves to provoke people. It's her little gig. Hence her mixed signals with the guys, her goading the guys into going into Coop's office, etc. She's just an awful/great character and very true to the workplace.
September 8th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
OMG the society pages — I can’t wait to see how that plays out!
September 8th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
"SAB used her therapist to get to Don about his affairs. So what’s the difference in Jimmy using SAB to get to Don? His confronting Don was like a cherry on top!"
Betty used her therapist, but only after her therapist violated doctor-patient confidentiality in the worst way by blabbing the juicy details from her sessions to Don.
Actually, let's be frank, it was much worse than that – Don and the therapist had set up that manipulative little situation *from the beginning*, agreeing to share whatever goodies the therapist managed to prise out of her. When Betty used their setup to her advantage, it was merely a comeback (a comparatively minor and very forgivable one) to their original betrayal.
OTOH, I don't see Betty as having set up Jimmy to start with. She may have responded very nastily at the end, but she didn't use him in the calculating way that Don and the therapist had used her. I don't think the two situations can be seen as analogous. And she didn't deserve what Jimmy did to her.
September 8th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Jimmy and Bobby: I think that Bobby got Jimmy all heated up about Don by lying to him about the affair and how it started. Jimmy is using a little self-delusion by blaming the whole thing on the handsome other guy and becomes a bully to Betty who is as powerless over the situation as he is. Bobby is a conniving witch who uses sex to get Jimmy where she wants him. There's a dark side to Jimmy which just may come out with a little prodding from his vengeful wife.
Jimmy and Betty: Both can do nothing about their mates unless they are willing to dump them. Both of them got ugly but Jimmy started it. I have to wonder if Betty even knew what she was saying her reaction was that spontanious.
Sal and Kitty: I see her as an innocent who married her crush. I feel that Sal treats Kitty in a similar way to his mother.
Cooper: Everything is an investment couched in art, literature, pop culture.
Roger: Promises Jane that everything will be alright but then does nothing. He is stuck controlling behind the scenes and can't do anything about Joan's engagement, but he isn't just going to let the issue go either. Jane is a means to an end.
September 8th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
I'm not explaining things correctly….Um, SAB tends to be very passive-aggressive with people. I can't name all the instances but Helen Bishop, the AC salesman coming into her home, and countless other things. To me, Jimmy's stunt was showing her how it feels to be on the receiving end of what she's an expert at doling out!
JMO, it was foul of her to use the therapist, and it was equally foul of Don to get info from the shrink.
September 8th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Watcher, "showbiz people" is also often coded language for Jews. "You showbiz types" doesn't mean the WASPy showbiz types. It means the Jews; it means Samuel Goldwyn and the other Jews who built Hollywood from the very beginning, and made an industry that was a haven for Jews and yet protected anti-Semitism.
And yes, Betty kissed a Jewish boy. But this is also a part of social-accepted prejudice; that you can flirt with the "other;" it's mo' better blues. Rachel said it in Babylon, "one at a time is okay."
September 8th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
So, Kay she derserves it because she's been passively aggresive to others? Karma should be pretty balanced. His actions, and her emotions/reactions are not equal IMO. Karma would be shown better via teenage/grown up children with passive aggresive tendencies. Can't you see Sally and Bobby all grown up and reacting to Mommy.
I just think you don't like the bitch and were glad to see her so upset. I think it was just too much of an evil attack from him. Don and Bobbie deserve his rage not her. Even if her getting upset would affect Don. Bad Jimmy Bad!
September 8th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
IMO, Jimmy invited them with the intention of doing damage.
1. Approach better when she is tipsy, flatter her.
2. If Betty knows done is a philanderer and wants revenge, Jimmy will happily help her even the score.
3. If Betty doesn't know, Pretty Boy has some 'splainin' to do.
4. While I don't know Jimmy is mastermind enough for this, the punchline was Betty throwing up in the new car.
Finally Jimmy is funny, if you have a stomach — so to speak — for cruelty.
And, let's not forget that he is doing a Candid Camera-esque show. Forget being a mosquito, Jimmy wants to be a fly on the wall, a hidden camera for the ride home.
Hate Jane, btw. Evil sow. I think Roger kept her because she is hot, but also to get Joan's goat — like a little boy pulling a little girl's pigtails because he likes her.
September 8th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
I think I have read every post. I didn’t see this thought posted yet-Everybody is so happy that Jimmy stuck it to Don AND BETTY. Why did he have to stick it to her as well?
Jimmy, like many performers, is a narcissist, and wasn't thinking about the consequences to Betty.
Also, Jimmy has a massive inferiority complex. He hates being the loud little Jew, and he is self-conscious around Don & Betty the Perfect Couple. He assumes that Betty, being "perfect," naturally knows what is going on and is on top of things; feeling inferior, he naturally feels he is the last to know.
Kay, you are wrong to equate Betty telling her therapist to Jimmy telling Betty. The therapist was supposed to be a neutral party and Betty's ally, when she found out he was talking to Don, she rightly felt betrayed, but she used that betrayal to her advantage. Betty, on the other hand, is NOT a neutral party and has NOT betrayed Jimmy or anyone else. She was an innocent bystander.
September 8th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Ms. G….Your post is once again on point! I got a case of schadenfraude…or however the hell it's spelled! LOL!
Deb…I'm probably wrong. It wouldn't be the first or last time!
September 8th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Man, so many little morsels to ponder the more that I think about the episode.
Jimmy's "stick to whores" comment had to be unbelievably hard for Don – as we all know, he was born because his daddy went to a whore.
I keep also revisiting the Harry/Cooper scene. It wasn't even a huge part of the episode, but it still added some layers. Cooper tells him to "forget about aesthetics, and stick to numbers" or something of that nature. In "The Wheel", Harry's conversation with Don revealed his interest in artsy photography and proved that he actually is kind of deep. So somehow I think that adds to his frustration of "not getting it" and desperately trying to impress and/or connect with Cooper.
Like Don said, "Sterling Cooper has more failed artists than the Third Reich."
It's interesting to me that the show seems to be exploring the desire these characters have to accomplish something more artistic. Paul, Harry, Sal, even Pete with his short story about hunting. And the one who is actually successful, Ken, brushes it off as just a hobby.
That could just be Ken trying to be "cool" though, like it's part of his facade. He sure did seem awful protective of his work and in need of compliments to validate his talents – something that definitely rings true to writers.
September 8th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
Watcher, thanks for your brief delurk.
I just want to say that I'm having a hard time with Betty this season. She is rough to take. She's being drunker, she's shown disdain for her son. Her anger has moved from palpable (which I supported) to dripping, which is disturbing to me.
And I think that was an antisemitic remark.
But Betty makes me sad. I've always been behind Betty's plight. I don't begrudge her her misery just because she's had it easy and is spoiled and shallow. She is just starting to notice that she doesn't quite know who she is, and that is heartbreaking.
Just so you know we're not a bunch of Betty haters here.
Now go back in your lurky hole!
September 8th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Also, I have dvr and there were a couple of lines that I still couldn’t catch no matter how many times I’ve rewound it. The first is Jane’s line right after she mentions that Cooper is not in his office. The second is the line that Jimmy tells Betty that clues her in that Bobbie and Don are having an affair. Something about “look at them… MUMBLE MUMBLE MUMBLEâ€. I may be losing my hearing. Can someone please enlighten me?
Jane said "Miss Blankenship won't mind."
Jimmy said "We're over here at the kid's table. C'mon, look at them. Your husband."
September 8th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
I don't get some of the Betty hate. I do see her being really mean to her children, but I view that in context. I grew up then and our mothers were pretty trapped and bitter and I think they do a decent job of capturing that.
The fact is she continues to care about Don–I can't remember if it was S1 or S2 but when he was paying attention to her she told him how much she thought about that. It's clear she's really turned on by him and this season when he brought her to Lutece to smooth things over she was in tears being so grateful that she was included and she told him they were a good team.
Betty is a lot smarter and more capable than Don thinks she is and he'd do well to let her help him more and let her do all the boards and nonprofits that S/C wants him to be involved in.
I'm probably in the minority but I think Betty is at heart a good egg and Joan is a malignant beeyotch.
WTF is UP with her profile this year? The green dress made her look like a freak–her bust stuck out about three feet. What is up with that?
September 8th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
I think they're trying to accentuate, even exaggerate, Joan's figure in order to make a point that she is not the 1962 Coupe de Ville, but an older model — last year's model.
Jane still has the new car smell and her, er, headlights are a little different. She's more streamlined, etc.
September 8th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Ms. Darkly: ITA on Jane….but again time just may be on Joan's side. But I was under the impression that Roger did nothing but make promises to Jane without following up on them, maybe in an attempt to force a confrontation with Joan. No one in the show seems to deal with anything directly unless forced into it.
With Jimmy, well I think Bobby has been telling tales with her spin on them. We could accuse Betty of being in denial but Jimmy is in denial of his own.
September 9th, 2008 at 3:51 am
Blankenship? What does that mean? I'd thought she'd said Blanketship. Hah!
Also, I caught the line about the children's table but didn't he say something right after that? The one right before Betty's horrified look?
September 9th, 2008 at 6:19 am
But the guy that shares the office with Harry was sitting right there when Harry and Roger are talking in the preview.
Roger kinda refers to Mitch as someone in some power in next weeks preview. "Mitch says you want to expand your department." and "How do I know your not just gold-bricking it, cause that's what Mitch thinks." (verbotem)
The guy in Harry's office is a sad sack looking little man. Harry is his boss. His name is Warren.
September 9th, 2008 at 7:23 am
** Joan is a malignant beeyotch.**
I agree in a sense. Like last season when she talked about Lady Chatterly's Lover and people treating marriage like a joke- uh, you mean like you treat Roger and Mona's? Who is she kidding?
I'm not one of those "blame the other woman/ man" types as the onus is on Roger not to cheat, and I understand the power imbalance between the genders at the time, but like Jimmy expressed in this episode, it's unethical at the least to keep up an affair with a person whom you know is married. I'm glad Paul posted Joan's license, as the woman seems to think her sh*t doesn't stink and is getting a serious comeuppance this season.
September 9th, 2008 at 7:25 am
Miss Blankenship is Cooper's secretary.
Oh, the line Jimmy said was "What do you think happened between those two?"
September 9th, 2008 at 8:49 am
Hi gang, first posting here. Devoted fan since "second #1" last year. Can't believe how good the show is. Anyway, a few things from "The Gold Violin"…apologies if I'm trodding old ground.
1) Absolutely loved Jimmy's confrontation of Draper. Just the latest, and best, example of the erosion of the walls Don has built around himself. When a worm like Jimmy can look sympathetic compared to the protagonist, that is brilliant writing.
2) Betty puking was the most LOL moment of the entire series for me. What an ending!
3) In my view, the first real non-credible character development happened. Cosgrove, the smarmiest, slimiest, most obnoxious guy in the office, suddenly plays the sensitive artist for an entire episode. Yes, I know he got published last season, but he bragged loudly about it and alienated everyone. Now, just because sensitive, closeted Sal likes his work, Ken has mellowed? I don't buy it. He was even downright polite in his come-on to Jane regarding the Mets game — usually, he would be petting Jane's rear end and saying something crude about "ballpark weiners" or the like. Just didn't work for me. Maybe I just need to give it more time — we'll see where they take him from here.
September 9th, 2008 at 9:57 am
Dear Lipp Sisters and Basketcases:
In my attempt at humor, I used an acronym describing the fictional character of Betty Draper. Many took umbrage with said acronym. I sincerely apologize to the Lipp Ladies and Basketcases for any offense caused by my usage of the nickname. And it will NOT be used again on Basket of Kisses.
Please accept my apology.
–Kay
September 9th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Wow. Clearly this episode has stirred up some lively debate. I love that in a TV series.
The whole Jimmy-outing-Don-and-Bobbi-to-Betty thing seems to be the most controversial, so I'll put in my two cents on that first. The way I saw it, Jimmy was angry and lashing out, certainly, but he was also kind of doing Betty a favor by forcing her to confront the reality of Don's cheating ways. Her passive-aggressive behavior is closely linked to her willful ignorance of his infidelity. She took a metaphorical swing at Jimmy — which was pretty blatant anti-Semtism the way she said it — because she did not like what he was making her see. I do think that the two victims in this situation have a lot in common, but their differences are what make them so distasteful to each other. Jimmy knows what's going on and uses the circumstances to his own advantage. Betty mostly refuses to acknowledge that anything is wrong, even to herself. That was, after all, the source of her health problems last season.
On the Ken-Sal-Kitty side of things, I got a real sense of melancholy. Ken wants to be loved for who he is, but he keeps hiding behind obnoxious bravado and innuendo while hitting on anything in a tight sweater. Women see his behavior and write him off pretty quickly.
Sal, poor thing, is developing such a crush on this newly revealed side of his co-worker that even his <del>beard</del> wife can see it and gets jealous. He looked so happy talking to Ken about art and storytelling, and then so confused by his newfound fixation. Did anybody else see the lighter moments and have flashbacks to Buffy season six? No? Just me. Okay.
I think I feel the worst for Kitty, though. She clearly adores Sal and looks up to him, probably like she has since they were younger. She seems to be a bit at a loss, though, since he's doing the cooking and (I'm guessing) did most of the decorating as well. Kitty is being out-done in her wifely duties by her husband, and to have him mostly ignore her during Sunday dinner is just that much worse.
Somewhat unrelated note: I can't believe it's taken me this long to realize that Kitty is played by Sarah Drew. She was one of my very favorite guest stars on Wonderfalls. It wasn't until they sat down to dinner that I really looked at her and said, "Holy crap, it's Binky!"
September 9th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Oh, and put me down for disliking Jane. Putting yourself in harm's way is one thing. Goading your co-workers and nominal superiors into following you as you jump off the bridge is quite another. Plus, as bitchy as she can be at times, I still like Joan better. She's manipulative as well, but the way she does it is classy and discrete, whereas Jane is pretty blatant in her dealings.
September 9th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Mrs. Darkly, I saw exactly what you did: Jimmy inviting the Drapers to his party (by calling Betty at home) was a setup for what happened there. I think that he always intended to call Don out in that setting.
As for Betty's involvement in that scene, I think Jimmy didn't mind because Betty's "you people" comment moved her away from Jimmy, and firmly to the other side. She'd been with him; now she was against him. I think Jimmy was hurt — and angry.
About Betty: where to begin?
I felt a lot more tenderness for Betty in Season 1. Yes, she's familiar to me; there's a way in which she is like women from that time, including my mother. But my mother was never one of "those people": the women who need things to be nice, attractive, neat, need people always to act in certain predictable ways and do the right things around her.
My mother was not a person who tolerated racism or sexism. But she was also not one of those people who act as though they don't tolerate it until they need to use it themselves; then deploy hurtful words with great, almost silent skill, and manage to get away from the scene of the crime before anyone can see what they just did.
I'm proud of Mom for this. She was raised by people like that (my aunt still is like that), so she certainly knows how to do it. But she is her own woman.
Betty? She is a bit of a mess. (But now so is her new car, so …) I am hoping that her horrible moment at the Stork Club shakes something loose in her, gets her good and angry. Or just angry. Enough with the passive aggression: I want to see Betty act. Not act out: act.
Want to end with a shout-out to the fantastic acting of Jon Hamm. The flashback scene in the car dealership, circa 1950: his reaction to the blond woman saying, "You're not Don Draper."
Please show that clip to acting students everywhere. Scream all you want, kids — but THAT is what true horror looks like.
September 9th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Here's my two cents on Betty. She's a woman in a lot of pain. Her mother died, her husband is a cad and she's stuck in a life with little room for self-expression or growth. If something happened to Don, she and her children would be in very dire straits. She's completely powerless and it's slowly driving her crazy. Betty's lashing out where she can – at Don and the kids. I think the writers are trying to show the darker consequences of the rigidity of gender roles. I don't think she's a role model but it's fascinating to watch and I feel extremely sad for her lot in life. She's doing what she thinks she's supposed to do and is miserable.
Yes, her "you people" remark to Jimmy may have been anti-Semitic but what he did to her was extremely cruel. He pretended to be a friendly admirer then told her in a very blunt way about an ugly truth. Again, she lashes out in the way that she can.
On other topics, I beginning to love Ken almost as much as I love Harry. Ken has some true artistic sensitivity and empathy for others. And he's nice to Peggy.
September 9th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Robin,
Good catch on the Wonderfalls connection. I really need to have a marathon.
I'm not sure I see the Buffy connection.
Upthread I made an oblique Brokeback Mountain reference, but there really is a connection, imo. What struck me about BM that rarely gets comment is that it was not just a tragedy for the two men, but for their wives, too. Because these men could not be true to their hearts and their desires, they married women and had children who were all destined to suffer, too.
Sal is a good man, even though he can be catty, and it's clear he loves Kitty. However, his marriage leaves him with few choices. He can stay faithful to his wife and untrue to himself or he can betray her if he wants fulfillment. And Kitty misses out either way.
When an in the closet gay man — or woman — marries, they enter the union knowing that there is an impediment to it being a true marriage by our modern definition. They keep vital information from their spouse and when that spouse senses that there is something off, there can be no honest answer and the partner thinks it's something they're doing or something fixable.
There are many reasons why a gay person might feel pressured to make that choice, especially an Italian man in the early sixties, but it complicated more than helps the matter, and it causes potential pain to at least one innocent party.
I love Sal, but all jokes aside, the marriage is unfair to Kitty if we assume she went into it with the expected hopes and beliefs.
September 9th, 2008 at 11:57 am
This is going to seem so small and trite compared to the deliciousness of what everyone's bringing to the table (you guys are geniuses i say!) but:
… the plants in Bert's office moved a matter of 24 hours. When Jane and the boys where checking out the Rothko, there was a small, round plant to the right (23:55 minutes into it) – and the bamboo plant was closer to the door (25:48). When Harry and Bert meet, the bamboo is now by the Rothko (30:59) and the smaller one is nowhere to be seen.
For some reason that really stuck out to me.
Re: Jimmy & Betty – misery loves company.
Re: Jimmy & Don – Bobbie *is* a whore (of sorts). She sells herself to get what Jimmy wants, and Jimmy's kind of her pimp – even if she acts like a free agent.
Re: Don and his looks – outside of Bert & Roger's desire for Don as the doll of SC, and Jimmy's jealousy, it's also intoned by the car salesman in the beginning "… you don't need one, you ride in one every day …"
September 9th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
The snotty-sounding car salesman is, I think, saying what most of the men on MM feel about Don…a man that "hot" should have the world handed to him on a silver platter and be happy. It's like a man THAT handsome is the Cadillac of manhood–sexy, sleek, desireable! Some dude like Jimmy, who probably has been dissed his whole life for being short, un-cute and a victim of anti-Semitism, loved sticking the knife into Don, calling Don out as "trash." Just pure speculation on my part…it pissed off Jimmy that his wife had more than a business fling with Dapper Don. Bobbie was in Don's grill after Lutece and calling constantly even after he left her tied up.
September 9th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
@Ms. Darkly: "I’m not sure I see the Buffy connection."
During season 6, Buffy carried on a rather unhealthy sexual relationship with her vampire foe-turned-ally, Spike, who (being a smoker) carried a well-worn silver Zippo lighter. At some point, he accidentally left it at her house. Instead of returning it to him, Buffy started carrying it around in her pocket but couldn't articulate why. She wasn't in love with him, but he did confound and fascinate her. His habitual accessory was an extension of him and therefore held the same interest for her. It was a minor thing, and he called her on it after she was mean to him (again).
Not quite the same as the Sal-Ken situation, but similar enough that I went, "Huh."
September 9th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Sir Hillary, welcome. I know a Bond fan who uses Sir Hillary as his nom de board as well (Sir Hillary Bray: A character from a Bond movie).
I disagree about Ken, we've always seen that Ken is a dog, and also always seen that he's likable and real. He's been kind and helpful to Peggy for a long time; their radio recording scene together was remarkable. I have believed all along that Ken had this side to him.
Kay, that is gracious of you.
Anne, love the contract between act and act out.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
@Deb: Thanks!
On to my fave Fella, Ken. I've liked him from the start because he was trampy but still willing to give Peggs her props and handled that jerk Paul with class when tearing up his article. I really want to see more of Ken's is story!
Sal and Kitty break my heart! Poor clueless Kitty! Poor sad Sal!
September 9th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Message to Kay
I have no ideal what that apology above was for.
SAB? I thought that was our standard lingo. Jeez, someone has to get the joke. If Matt had intended Betty to be a character that everyone liked, he would not make her so "unmommish" to her kids at times. While Betty has her good points and she never deserved to be cheated on by Don, I totally agree with the nickname. (Loved YodaBert too)
And should I ever turned a blind eye to my spouse if he cheats, or neglect and belittle my child constantly, then please feel free to call me a SAB.
Personally the only character who is sympathetic in my eyes is Harry and Peggy. And they too have their moments. The rest are fair game. I consider Kay's nicknames the highlight of our board convos. They make me laugh.
If I ever take this so seriously that I find someone's character analysis or joke offensive (unless it is outright racist (religion's included) or homophobic), I will take myself off the boards.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Yes Sal and Kitty break my heart. You see they love one another, like a good family does. But poor Sal is in for a major awakening during the 70's Me Decade. Kitty will surely suffer in the end. Hopefully she will embrace a little feminist concepts and in the end land on her feet a stronger woman.
I hope this show continues through the 70's. It would be wonderful to watch these characters grow with the times.
September 9th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
I have to jump in about Ken. I like him. I admit, I excuse some of his boorish behavior by writing it off as a sign of the times. He definitely likes skirtchasing. But he's not a poser like Paul. He's pretty honest, seems to have a decent head on his shoulders, and I give him a lot of credit for how he dealt with Peggy in the radio booth. (Except for that Gertrude Stein crack in Maidenform, which I think of as a compliment but was meant as an insult in that context). And I just loved his exposition about art when he saw the Rothko!
September 9th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
I totally see the thing about Ken's treatment of Peggy. Remember when he told her he would not let Paul do anything on the Bra account without her. He sees Peggy's contribution.
I do think that Ken has some good qualities. He is a little egotistic, but probably rightly so because his ease with women and his value in the company. It is funny to see his weak attempts to woo Jane and her just walking off. It has got to be pretty humbling for him. She is a total challenge for him.
The Gertrude Stein thing was funny, but it is another show that he does not see Peggy as a sexual object, but as a co-worker. He was happy to see her at the strip club too.
I loved the Irene Dunne comparison to her that Don made. It showed a lot f class.
September 9th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Anne B.-"As for Betty’s involvement in that scene, I think Jimmy didn’t mind because Betty’s “you people†comment moved her away from Jimmy, and firmly to the other side. She’d been with him; now she was against him. I think Jimmy was hurt — and angry"
She said "you people" after he was a jerk. So, I don't understand what you're saying that's why he was so hurtful.
Kay-I love your nicknames! And I am truly sorry to anyone who was offended. I honestly too identify with Betty. I have a lot more in common with her than I am willing to post, but she is supposed to be portrayed as a sniveling or stupid person. (or that is subjective too) That's why I keep hoping she will grow up and break out.
September 9th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
About Sal and Kitty:
Take it from someone with gay family members: it would have been different then. It's 1962. Homosexuality remains a mental disorder — if it's not still formally classified as that in the reference books of most practicing clinicians (and it probably is), at least it's still that way in the minds of most people.
Stonewall is still seven years away. Gays and lesbians are still in the closet (except, perhaps, for Mr. Smith and Mr. Smith. Even they don't seem to be "out"). Coming out will be dangerous for another thirty years.
Even if Sal were to admit that what he feels is real, he is more a product of his upbringing than anything resembling the Smiths. He's past, not future. He would fear, not embrace, what he feels — while still needing to form intimate relationships with other men. He can't explore that need, of course. So: the trophy. Ken's left-behind lighter.
From a distance, Sal's pursuit of what he needs looks pretty harmless. But it's hurting his wife … and of course, the worst hurt is Sal himself.
Ms. D, I loved your Brokeback reference. I think that's still the best film about love that I have ever seen. The beauty and desolation of the setting could not have fit the subject better.
September 9th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Robin: Don't even get me started on BTVS I'm still in withdrawl
I think one of the moments I realized that there was more to Ken was his reaction to Sal saying that writing was his 'hobby'. He's a kid who went looking for some dough and ended up a pimp. In Mad Men people aren't always what they play they are. In season six of Buffy we have a person who looks one way and is feeling the opposite. The repressed sadness over the loss of heaven has Buffy doing things she never would have contemplated in previous seasons. Salvatore has it worse, he could lose more than his job if he came out of the closet. The subsequent story he's built around himself has caused his wife pain and he can't be who he wants to be and he can't love who he wants to. In all the characters we see what made them who they are "cause" and what it does to everyone around them "effect". Ken doesn't see Salvatore because he's too busy with his own internal suffering (think s3 Buffy "Every single person down there is ignoring your pain because they're too busy with their own." when Jonathan tries to kill himself in Earshot).
Rufus
September 9th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
@Elle and Ms. G….Mad Men's a great show and I try not to take it too serious because it is just a show. (Hey, Don's my favorite character and I've called him a "slut" and "'ho." And let's not forget my nickname for him was Sexy Bastard!) My sense of humor is raunchy and that doesn't go over too good with all audiences. If I'm called out for my raunchiness, I'll apologize. It's OK….
Oh, Elle, please check ALL of your email accounts!!
September 9th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Ms. Golightly,
What was interesting about Jimmy and Betty's exchange was how she reacted when he got too close to a truth that threatened her. She did tell him to stop, which is probably what I would have done in that situation.
But her closing comment — "You people are so crude" — could have been much more specific, not to mention honest ("you are so crude"). What Jimmy had said was brutally honest, and Betty does not like that. Fine. But she dropped the tenor of their discussion further by bringing up race.
Which, honestly, I found weird. I don't know what's wrong with me, but I've never seen Jimmy as representing a group (aside from he and his wife being generally representative of showbiz people). When Betty said that, it shocked me.
Betty's comment was an impulse, and I'm sure a defensive one … but for someone who's never gone there in an argument, yeah. It caught me off guard. And I could see it being hurtful.
My husband has compared Jimmy's position in this episode to that of the Fool in King Lear (perhaps the most brutal of Shakespeare's plays). The Fool has an interesting role: invited to join the circle of power, he knows that his seat there only belongs to him because he refracts the truth of every situation back to the King, and lets him laugh at it.
Jimmy's perch is far more tenuous than that. This week, Betty wanted none of the Fool's wisdom — though I think she did need to see what Jimmy had to show her.
September 9th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Anne….You were raised right! And even if you were to jump back in time and be in 1962, I'm not sure someone who was "raised right" would take the anti-Semitic route. You might call a jerk like Jimmy an "@sshole" but I doubt if you'd lash out at his religion! I wonder if the next time Betty's upset and the housekeeper Carla's the only one around, what would Mrs. Draper say then?
September 9th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
I waited and waited for Brokeback Mountain to come here. It started in only one theater. I was there opening night and I think I was the only straight person there.
I cried like a baby during the last touching scene. It was pure art.
Excellent intro of Shakespeare into the mix.
September 9th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
***During season 6, Buffy carried on a rather unhealthy sexual relationship with her vampire foe-turned-ally, Spike, who (being a smoker) carried a well-worn silver Zippo lighter. At some point, he accidentally left it at her house. Instead of returning it to him, Buffy started carrying it around in her pocket but couldn’t articulate why. She wasn’t in love with him, but he did confound and fascinate her. His habitual accessory was an extension of him and therefore held the same interest for her. It was a minor thing, and he called her on it after she was mean to him (again).***
Ah, right, gotcha.
Yeah, it didn't hit me that way, Of course, I'm so Spuffy that I didn't see the relationship as unhealthy.
September 9th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Elle, what you said about racism, anti-religion, or homophobia is exactly right, and exactly our policy, but I would also include sexism, and some people are going to consider "bitch" sexist, and while I don't personally consider that word sexist, I'm okay with respecting boundaries different from my own.
September 9th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
It surprised me how much hostility I saw directed toward Alma on discussion boards. (Brokeback Mountain) I cried for the men, but I cried for the wives, too.
I pointed out in the discussion for 3 Sundays that in another show our sympathies might would be with Peggy's sister Anita. In another movie, our sympathies might be for the wives who found out their marriages were lies.
I love Ennis, but can't blame Alma for being angry. And if Kitty gets angry at Sal, I can't begrudge her that.
September 9th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
I loved the opening line of this episode: "Afraid you'll fall in love," after which Don high-tails it out of the car dealership. Heh.
I also love the philanthropy angle. It opens the story up to so many new possibilities. While it's a great opportunity for Don, it also threatens his very existence. For someone who likes to remain low key, this will surely make Don more high profile. It may bring him into contact with former lovers…as well as future ones. There may be photographs of him in Vanity Fair, Town & Country, the New York Times, and the New Yorker, which may be seen by people who knew him as Dick Whitman, and by people who knew the real Lt. Donald Francis Draper. Plus, he'll really need Betty as his front person now more than ever. And she's furious with him at the moment. How will he manage it all? Talk about his facade crumbling. I can't wait.
September 9th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Ms. Darkly: So what do you think…is Ken that flapjack not ready to be flipped?
September 9th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
@Rufus! : [/keanu] Ahem, sorry.
I think BtVS had a good run. Sometimes I miss the old gang, but Buffy had her day (seven years worth), so there are DVDs and the new comic series… even fanfic when I get the old itch. And new, shiny things like Mad Men that, while different, are just as entertaining and thought-provoking.
I didn't mean to draw direct parallels between the entire relationships of Buffy/Spike and Sal/Ken. It was mostly the fixation on the lighters that made my brain ping.
@Ms. Darkly: I like Buffy with Spike better than any of her other suitors (Don't get me started on Angel's and Riley's failure to grok her.), but the way they treated each other during that season wasn't healthy for either of them. It's been discussed to death on various BtVS boards, though, so I won't hijack this thread to rehash it.
@Anne B: I think I mentioned it in the thread for an earlier episode… You're right about homosexuality being a mental disorder in 1962. It wasn't taken out of the official medical manuals until a decade later. Even if Sal were able to recognize and accept his feelings, which I don't think he is, it would be illegal for him to act on them and get him tossed into an institution at the very least.
I feel so badly for Sal and for Kitty. They're pretty much doomed to be unhappy for years to come. I can't imagine being stuck in that kind of situation. I'm so glad that I've grown up in an era that is more understanding and accepting of many kinds of love.
September 9th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
So I guess Beyotch is off limits? LOL okay, okay, I'll behave in the future.
September 9th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Did anyone over broach the subject of Roger, Jane and Joan? Roger never told Joan to keep Jane. It was evident in Joan's reaction to Jane being back at work. What, did he forget?
I am so welcoming the addition of Jane. I think we have great feud material here between them. It is going to living the office.
I have yet to decide which T-shirt I want yet. Team Jane or Team Joan? I guess I am a little swayed to Joan, cause she has shown heart at times. But is nice to see something that makes her less hard. Something that shows a weak spot. Roger is a weak spot to Joan.
September 9th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
I don't think the Gertrude Stein remark was meant as an insult. Ken can't figure out how to categorize Peggy; she's not a woman as he understands it. So he throws her into the "ugly but smart and probably a dyke" category, because that's all he's got.
September 9th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Robin: The packaging of s1 Mad Men was enough to have me place it near to the Buffy collection. And to prove I'm nuts I liked Riley (maybe not for Buffy). I wasn't a shipper so I just liked to see all Buffy's relationships play out.
Back to Mad Men, Kitty ended up a third wheel at a date except neither she or Ken knew it. The whole thing was so sad. I have to admit I loved Sal just that bit more when he told Kitty to put her feet up while he cleaned up the mess from dinner
Sal is navigating a dangerous world where he could end up in an asylum, beaten, fired, or killed for who he is. He seemed genuine when he apologized to Kitty for being rude, he was playing a part and on a date at the same time and she had to sit at the end of the table wondering what the heck was going on.
Ellelque: I'm Team Joan all the way! Jane wouldn't have a team as she'd be too busy stealing all their t-shirts (like Coopers painting).
September 9th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Hi, great board and smart insights. I have a few questions and need help.
1. I've been wracking my brain over "Mitch."
He is not Harry's officemate. That fellow is named Warren, I think. Mitch must be a nemesis higher-up in accounting. I remember a reference to him in "The Benefactor" episode, when Harry goes into Sterling's office and mistakenly thinks he was called in there because he tampered with Ken's paycheck. Roger says, "I think someone told on you and it backfired." Harry angrily says, "Mitch!" Maybe he asked Mitch for a No. 10 windowed envelope?
2. Did Roger and Jane hook up over the weekend now that he knows where she lives?
When Jane tells off Joan on Monday morning, she says Mr. Sterling says you're "impetuous." I think Jane was inferring that and said it to make Joan think Roger was talking behind Joan's back. But what if he really did tell that to Jane over cocktails in the Village.
3. The scene between Jimmy and Betty had to happen to move the storyline forward. He was angry and couldn't control it. When a person feels betrayed and hurt, he can't help but hurt other people using the truth. It's a very human reaction. He wanted her to know. And, yes, he wanted to ruin their seemingly perfect lives.
Was Jimmy hoping she'd react differently and want to take revenge on Don by getting cozy? Now that Betty and Jimmy have something in common will they be drawn together? She detests Jimmy, but what a great twisted way to get back at Don.
September 9th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
A few more thoughts. I can't help it.
-Most comics do have very dark sides. Jimmy fits the mold. Some of the funniest comics/people tend to be the sadest inside.
-When Jimmy insisted to see Don in his office, I think it was because Jimmy suspected something was up. Then, when he saw Don's arm in a sling and Bobbie black and blue, Jimmy knew they were hooking up.
-Each episode is so well-crafted. This one opens with the shiny car as the focal point and the next scene is Don feeling vulnerable and distressed in the flashback. Now fast-foward to the end: Don is vulnerable and distressed when Jimmy calls him out. The final scene is in the car — now not shiny. Perfect start and end.
September 9th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
@Ellelque
I am still furious over what Roger did! What ever one says about the "romance" with the prostitute during "Three Sundays" I think it just means he is more into the simulacra of a relationship than the actual relationship. He also proved that with his relationships with his wife, daughter and Joan. For all his great lines I don't think he can relate to another person as a person. Especially with women!
He completely undermined Joan! While it would be unfair for only Jane to be punished for sneaking into Cooper's office, she was the only one Joan had authority over and her authority was not respected. Plus she was so obviously being manipulative by insinuating that she would be physically grateful to him.
On the other hand Joan tends to infantilize the other women in the office, so seeing her get to be on the flip side of that with how Jane put Roger's assessment of her. Though it was also painful.
At least when Peggy dissented she acknowledged that Joan thought she was being helpful.
September 9th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Anne B. loved the Shakespeare, but Andrea I think I am finally happy with an answer about the Jimmy and Betty scene. Yay! But, ewww on Jimmy and Betty getting together…I don't see it and wouldn't want to see that! They both deserve…different.
Mitch is a character on MM. (I am so funny.)
"Elle, what you said about racism, anti-religion, or homophobia is exactly right, and exactly our policy, but I would also include sexism, and some people are going to consider “bitch†sexist, and while I don’t personally consider that word sexist, I’m okay with respecting boundaries different from my own."
I agree and thank you, Deborah for reminding me about respecting others. I just have a raunchy sense of humor too. This is a beautifully open forum and I want to keep it that way.
TEAM JOAN
September 9th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
If Jimmy has an issue with being Jewish, banging Betty might feel like a validation since she is Hitler's wetdream. Just like a car can say you've arrived, so could sex with a beautiful blonde who just happens to be married to a guy who made you a cuckold.
September 9th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Yeah, I'm firmly behind Joan. Roger is one of the least likable characters for me, the way he struts, and tosses off statements that scream of his entitlement. I believe he *wanted* Joan to stomp into his office though, because he still has a thing for her.
The whole Joan/Jane dynamic touches on something I've probably discussed way too often — the concept of the wheel constantly being in motion, and success being fleeting. As beautiful as Joan is, she can't keep her looks forever, and her "type" is on it's way out. But Jane is still to young to know that she won't be twenty forever, or the new girl. To mention a Buffy episode, she might be This Year's Girl at the moment, but some day she'll be last year's model.
September 9th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Problem is, Jimmy's not funny, so what's his excuse?
I think the thing that bothers me most about Jimmy is that he has no problem with his wife whoring herself for him. I am pretty certain Don Draper was not her first "business" deal. Bobbi has joked about it, and he's joked about it ("I know her, and you know him…"). So for him to call Don on that was pretty, I don't know, disingenuous? I wonder if that's his M.O. He encourages Bobbie to do whatever she needs to do in order to get him a deal, then throws it in their face once the ink has dried on the contract.
September 9th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
I think it's all about Jimmy's inferiority complex. He said it to Betty about Don. "I've been standing behind guys like that my whole life." That's why Jimmy feels the need to put people down, to make himself seem bigger and more important — and his comedy schtick gives him an easy way to do that.
In effect, he's saying to Don and Betty, "get off your high horse" you're no better than anyone else. In fact, Don is worse, he's "garbage."
September 9th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
I think while Jimmy is reaping the fruits of Bobbi's labor, he is very resentful that everyone knows what she really is. It angers him that essentially, the whore is his wife, but that he wouldnt be where he is without her. She did say a few episodes back that hes only funny when he's drunk. And we know he's not witty. Its a base, juvenile humor steeped in insults. Im not so sure he encourages her behavior so much as tolerates it insofar as what it will get him. Perhaps that's why he preys on what he perceives as weak – Betty, the pretty girl who is clearly insecure; the Utz woman, who is obese. He takes out his anger on others because he knows it wont fly with Bobbi
September 9th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Jimmy is completely afraid of Bobbie and wishes he could satisfy her like Don does. If Bobbie leaves, so does Jimmy's career.
September 9th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Right. That's exactly it, Andrea. But by the same token, I wonder why Bobbie sticks around? Yes, Jimmy's her meal ticket, but she's smart enough that she could have her own management company, making 10 to 15% off any number of celebrities. I'm actually surprised she hasn't branched out to do this. What's Jimmy got on her?
September 9th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
i suspect she may be working on that. after all, she is willing to stoop to blackmail. there are two things that induce morning sickness right now – baby poo and bobbi.
September 9th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Jimmy has a classic case of Short Man's Complex! I'm not sure how tall Don is (I'll guess 6'2) but he appeared a foot taller than Jimmy. And the only thing Jimmy had at his disposal, to cut Don down to size, was that big, nasty mouth! Plus, Jimmy had to be the unfunniest comedian evah! But he sized up folk pretty good. He knew Betty is mega-vain and played on that to deflate her ego and bring her down to Earth!
September 10th, 2008 at 3:18 am
You know, I haven't thought for one minute that Betty might be pregnant, until this little lightbulb went off in my brain last night…
… they were leaving the Stork Club.
the end by rkl
September 10th, 2008 at 3:22 am
# # 297 Dan Says:
September 8th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
"I’m not sure I buy into the idea that Don has a classic Madonna/Whore complex. Neither Rachel nor Midge could be classified as whores – I always thought Don was attracted to strong, independent women who were ahead of their time. Bobbie, Rachel and Midge all qualify as that.
The problem with Betty is not that she’s a Madonna, but that she’s a child and that’s what Don is put off by the most."
I got a different impression by Don's choice in women, as in he seems to find strong, nonsubmissive women attractive because Dick Whitman's adoptive mother was exactly like that (and perhaps non-coincidentally, also a brunette). Of course, he also truly loathes his stepmother, which is also likely why his affairs tend to end so badly.
Betty on the other hand is the idealized woman that American culture was telling the reborn Don Draper he /should/ have (blond, beautiful, obedient wife and mother) and in the end did get, but it turned out that he didn't truly want after all.
September 10th, 2008 at 3:35 am
If Betty's preggo, it'll be so sad because that's one more person for her to ignore due to her self-absorption. I guess future therapists will be happy because they can give the Draper Kids a financial family plan!
*The above was intended as a joke!*
September 10th, 2008 at 4:41 am
Betty pregnant? But that would mean Don actually had sex with her…LOL.
It would be an interesting development, though.
September 10th, 2008 at 4:57 am
@Rufus:
Never apologize for making a Buffy reference, but, yes, it's probably best not to carry on that vein too far. This place is full of Buffyholics (including me) who, if encouraged, will take the opportunity to go on for several thousand pages on the subject.
September 10th, 2008 at 5:12 am
Re: the Jimmy/Betty/Don confrontation….does anybody else notice the timing? That Jimmy only decided on the confrontation AFTER the tie-tying episode? My theory is that Bobbie is extracting revenge on Don for that insult by rubbing it in Jimmy's face, knowing Jimmy will act on it. I have the feeling that Bobbie won't stop there, either. Don humiliated & rejected & she WILL extract her pound of flesh, blood included.
I missed the anti-Semitism entirely; I thought the remark was addressed to show-biz types. Guess I'm just not with it.
PS I LOVE the BTVS references! I thought I was the only one still carrying a torch!
September 10th, 2008 at 6:09 am
@ soupconthecat #404
Re: the Jimmy/Betty/Don confrontation….does anybody else notice the timing? That Jimmy only decided on the confrontation AFTER the tie-tying episode? My theory is that Bobbie is extracting revenge on Don for that insult by rubbing it in Jimmy’s face, knowing Jimmy will act on it. I have the feeling that Bobbie won’t stop there, either. Don humiliated & rejected & she WILL extract her pound of flesh, blood included.
Could be. I got the feeling that Jimmy doesn't know anything that Bobbie doesn't want him to know.
PS I LOVE the BTVS references! I thought I was the only one still carrying a torch!
We all are.
I'm still mad at FX for not showing the Saturday and Sunday morning repeats anymore.
September 10th, 2008 at 7:58 am
Oh, sure, Melville, now you say the Buffyholics will storm the ramparts or whatever. Where were you when I was writing my heart out about Lilah?
September 10th, 2008 at 8:26 am
Galen, I don’t know that Don’s affair with Midge ended so badly, as endings go. He pulled back a bit further than had been the routine, she pulled back to protect herself (and drew closer to someone else), and he let her go.
Hull, they had the drunken sex in Three Sundays, when the kids walked in. Oh, which may have thwarted the knock-up, come to think of it.
Melville, true dat, re pages and pages of potential Whedonchat. And me too about the repeats on FX. Many a weekend morning found me on the couch in the dark of Sunnydale.
Inanna et al, Betty also got humiliated for kissing that Jewish boy. (I paraphrase…) After that, they were all blondes.
Jane—I dunno; she does not feel good to be around.
September 10th, 2008 at 8:59 am
My character likes and dislikes are almost wholly irrational, but I still love Joan. She intrigues me. And I love to see a sexy woman who's not (current-day) Hollywood-thin.
September 10th, 2008 at 9:00 am
I love to see that woman on TV, I mean. Obviously, there are lots of us in real life.
September 10th, 2008 at 10:09 am
The disturbing trend, though, even on MM, is that though WE love Joan's "full-figured" look, it's "out with the old, in with the new"….Jane is Next Year's Model. Back again to the thin. So much for the rest of us .
September 10th, 2008 at 10:27 am
I’ve just read the entire comment thread after watching the episode last night. Whew! What an episode. My SO and I loved it.
(1) Deborah wrote: Watcher, “showbiz people†is also often coded language for Jews. “You showbiz types†doesn’t mean the WASPy showbiz types. It means the Jews; it means Samuel Goldwyn and the other Jews who built Hollywood from the very beginning, and made an industry that was a haven for Jews and yet protected anti-Semitism.
And yes, Betty kissed a Jewish boy. But this is also a part of social-accepted prejudice; that you can flirt with the “other;†it’s mo’ better blues. Rachel said it in Babylon, “one at a time is okay.â€
Yes, exactly. I was going to say that when I got to the end of the thread. I wouldn’t have said it as well. And it’s completely keeping with the kind of person Betty was raised to be and the kind of person she aspires to be that she would both express dismay at others’ racism and anti-Semitism (since it’s crude to be racist or anti-Semitic) and that she would express racist and anti-Semitic feelings herself (since people of color and Jews are coded as inferior and crude). It’s kind of like when she says to Sally that it’s impolite to talk about money. That’s a very WASP things to say. But it’s also very WASP to care a lot about status and money–to love that new Cadillac and picture oneself driving up to the club in it–while hiding that one cares.
(2) Sorry, I forget who said, As someone above mentioned, Sal is nicer to his wife than any of the straight guys. I think this is a bit of stereotyping, I mean, there had to be SOME decent straight guys out there, even in the Evil 60’s.
I looooved the scenes with Sal, Ken, and Kitty. Team Bryan Batt! The scenes about Sal’s personal life are among my favorites–so beautifully and skillfully done. As much as Sal feigned a kind of crude heterosexuality among the guys at the office in S.1, there are many ways in which he’s not bound by some of the conventions of masculinity: whether because he’s gay, or Italian and still steeped in continental ways of being, or an artist. He seems to have more freedom in self-expression (which is perhaps ironic given that he can’t express himself as a gay man). He has created openings for himself to be himself. Straight guys of the era are supposed to be dismissive of their wives. Sal shows a little of that when he says to Kitty at dinner that no one is interested in whatever topic she raised. But he also is able to act in a more genuinely caring way toward Kitty, especially in private, perhaps because he’s not as strictly bound by the heteronormative expectations of the day. He can offer to cook and clean up. His masculinity isn’t threatened by these things.
I feel sad for Sal and Kitty that he can’t just be gay, but the burgeoning friendship between Ken and Sal was lovely to watch. (Ken: please don’t freak out, please don’t freak out.) And Kitty is a delight. If she can come to terms with her situation and either find sexual fulfillment outside her relationship OR (more likely?) decide that she doesn’t need a sexual relationship to be fulfilled, and if she can keep Sal as a mentor, I see a lot of Auntie Mame potential in her.
September 10th, 2008 at 10:35 am
I like Jane. She’s interesting and different. Joan is too angry and this season she’s been on one warpath after another. I had a lot of love for Joan last year, but this year, it’s warpath-against-Sheila, warpath-against-Peggy, bitchy-to-her-exes (Paul and Roger), and now warpath-against-Jane. It’s not any one of these, but the combination of all of them that makes me feel like Joan is the seething outward expression of Betty’s inward rage, and I’m sick of it.
The way they film her, heading straight down the aisle towards Jane like a battleship!
September 10th, 2008 at 10:57 am
**Inanna et al, Betty also got humiliated for kissing that Jewish boy. (I paraphrase…) After that, they were all blondes.**
You know, I had interpreted that to mean that the other girls at summer camp had dyed their hair blonde to emulate shiksa goddess Betty, but I haven't seen that scene in awhile.
September 10th, 2008 at 11:26 am
I think Joan is maybe angry because she realizes she wasted her "good years" so to speak on Roger, even though she was never looking for him to leave his wife or anything. He can get a newer model while still remaining married, while she's now stuck with the "old maid" perception. Like even if Joan is o.k. with being single and a Marilyn, she knows that others will see her as flawed, and she's very much about the image of perfection and correct protocol.
It's a little bit like Sal's situation. He had no problem with being the older single guy at the office, but after the dinner with Elliot he suddenly got a view of what others might think of him, and now he's married so there's no doubt that people will see him as straight.
September 10th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
I interepreted that scene, about Betty kissing the Jewish guy, the same way you did. IMO, she was saying the other girls were so "jealous" of her kissing the dude that they dyed their hair blonde, like hers.
Since he is currently my favorite character, I really don't wanna see Don the Doll get hurt. Much to my dismay, he tried to be "good," even turning down that stunning waitress at the Asian restaurant and wearing ol' man sweaters. He's a loving daddy, not wanting to spank his adorable little boy and actually engaged in watching his daughter's ballet demo. Yeah, he's a nympho but my heart breaks for the guy….
September 10th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
That is so funny that you both thought that. I am positive that it meant that she stuck with her kind so as to restore and protect her tarnished reputation.
I wonder if part of Joan's anger is in seeing that Roger doesn't love his wife or believe in marriage. In an interesting way, I think that she saw their not being able to have a future as having some meaning, some dignity to it. Now not so much.
September 10th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
I am still bothered by Joan not getting that Roger did not believe in marriage. I mean there was that joke about how miserable he would be without Joan: he was thinking of leaving his wife before having an affair.
Also all his fantasies about her were dehumanizing. (Having her locked in a walk up, thinking the only company she needed was a bird). I could not stand to be with a man whose fantasies about me were like that. I know I am in the minority by the Joan Roger affair left me worse than cold about the characters.
September 10th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
@Portia: You are NOT alone because, as much as Roger's the Silver Fox, there was something un-sexy about his affair with Joan. I'm not sure what it was that turned me off. It certainly wasn't the adultery….
September 10th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
**I know I am in the minority by the Joan Roger affair left me worse than cold about the characters.**
**I’m not sure what it was that turned me off. It certainly wasn’t the adultery….**
Now that I think about, what we saw of it was rather "party girl/companion"- ish. He liked her for her physical attributes and wanted her to be his kept woman. They met up in a hotel and then left and tried to be surreptitious about it. Yeah, he invited her to his place while his wife was to be out of town, but we never saw them at dinner, or her place, or having any real conversation like we did with Don/Midge or Don/Rachel. There was no real companionship or connection outside of the sex. Plus Roger was still chasing anything in a skirt, and Joan seeemed to be dating too, so there was no real purpose to their affair.
September 10th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Don would never call Midge or Rachel "the best piece of ass I've ever had"… maybe Bobbie, but she'd call him the same.
September 10th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Re Roger and Joan: I agree, there was no real "purpose" to their affair, but I don't think affairs need to have a purpose. It certainly had no future. I'm sure Joan wasn't thinking about it at the time, but other than the sex, she just passed time with him.
I will always remember the closing scene of Babylon – the two of them walking separately outside the hotel, pretending to not know each other, with her holding the birdcage. Then just standing there. It was a lonely scene.
I'm a fan of Joan, and it's really interesting to see the interaction between her and Peggy, and their respective positions and future. While Peggy is very smart, as far as I know she didn't go to college. She went to Miss So and So's Secretarial School (i think it was mentioned in the first episode). Yet she has the chance to rise in the organization. Joan went to college, she is smart, and she has confidence. She could aspire to more – but has she? Now she's stuck in the pink-collar ghetto and she'll never rise to being more than queen bee of the secretaries.
BTW, I think she is not faking the engagement, but I don't think we'll be seeing a blushingly happy bride come the Christmas season…
September 10th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
I'm so confused about the picnic scene…what was the point? It was almost like a still photo, it ran for about a minute. The woman from Don's past will definitely show up again later.
September 10th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
They're pretty people, with a pretty car, and they look pretty when picnicking, but they leave garbage behind. Things are not as perfect as the surface would have you believe and inside they're hot messes.
And Jimmy said to Don, "You're garbage."
September 10th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
@Jackie: Don’t forget Roger did give Joan that pearl necklace! (I’m not sure if it was jewelry though….LOL!)
September 10th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Since there has been some Joss-talk in this thread, I want to point out that the Dr. Horrible soundtrack is available on iTunes.
September 11th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
I wonder if part of Joan’s anger is in seeing that Roger doesn’t love his wife or believe in marriage. In an interesting way, I think that she saw their not being able to have a future as having some meaning, some dignity to it. Now not so much.
I think this is interesting. Were you the one, Roberta, who wrote the post about Joan's being a true believer in marriage? I think that analysis has really held true for her character; I think of it often.
I'm not a fan of the Roger/Joan affair. I think she had feelings for him, but there was never any heat. Come to think of it, we haven't seen any heat in any of Joan's encounters. As sexy as she plays, we don't see her enjoying sex ever.
September 11th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Yup, that was me. Also a long, long time ago, we had some discussion around what kind of lover the women on this show are… I can't for the life of me remember how/why that occurred. But I am pretty sure that I said that Joan was not so good in bed, which goes with what you're saying. My guess is that Roger is a pretty standard lover; a few good tricks, but ultimately male-orgasmcentric. They were probably pretty compatible; he and Joan, but it doesn't sound like the kind of good time I'm looking for.
September 12th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Been thinking quite a bit about MM's semi-recurring leitmotif: vomit.
Now, in a lot of ways, puking is a fairly obvious dramatic device that forces a kind of catharsis (Greek for "cleansing" or "expunging") for the viewer. Unsubtle as it is, it works so damn well on MM.
I think of "Red in the Face." Don devises a plan to embarrass Roger in front of the clients by slipping a few to the elevator operator, forcing D and R to take the stairs after a lunch of oysters and heavy drinking. A plan designed to make R look like a sickly guy, like an old guy, but most of all, like a guy who can't hold down his liquor. And for the boys of Sterling Cooper c. 1960, nothing looks worse than a guy who can't keep it down. It's the ultimate sign of weakness. You can't keep up with the pack. Vomiting just spoils the facade.
And then Betty in Sunday's ep. Her puking should tell us that things are gonna go downhill fast. Going off B. Cooper's post on the main page about cars in S2: Betty just puked up a torrent of 50's oppression inside the vessel of the future, the commodity of the 60's. And there's another facade gone, spoiled by chunks of puke.
Episode also made me think of The Sopranos episode where Adriana is cornered by the feds and barfs all over the table, poodle in lap. Another sad, unsatisfied woman destroyed by a selfish, philandering sociopath. Adriana's anxiety issues make for a perfect parallel to Betty's own psychological wounds.
In the world of Mad Men, everyone's always expected to say the right thing. For the men: be quick on your feet, always have something pithy and clever waiting for the wings. For Don: less is more, remain mysterious, say too much and you're exposed. For the women: keep it flirtatious, keep it simple, keep it quiet. If you bump into a younger guy whose got his eye on you at a social function with your husband, keep it cordial, never express your true desires. Everyone layer your language with falseness and keep that pain hidden. Vomiting is the only time that the wrong thing comes out of character's mouths. The thing that spoils the new car or a business meeting. Makes you look weak or open up an even great shitstorm
September 14th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
@Joan Zass: LMAO! Visan…Kay….It's all good! I no longer use that nickname on Basket of Kisses….I'll answer elsewhere!;)
September 14th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Visan – er, I mean Kay, WHAT IS SAB? I know it’s Betty, but WHAT DOES IT MEAN??