Sep 072008
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430 Responses to “Open Thread: The Gold Violin”
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If Betty's preggo, it'll be so sad because that's one more person for her to ignore due to her self-absorption. I guess future therapists will be happy because they can give the Draper Kids a financial family plan!
*The above was intended as a joke!*
Betty pregnant? But that would mean Don actually had sex with her…LOL.
It would be an interesting development, though.
@Rufus:
Never apologize for making a Buffy reference, but, yes, it's probably best not to carry on that vein too far. This place is full of Buffyholics (including me) who, if encouraged, will take the opportunity to go on for several thousand pages on the subject.
Re: the Jimmy/Betty/Don confrontation….does anybody else notice the timing? That Jimmy only decided on the confrontation AFTER the tie-tying episode? My theory is that Bobbie is extracting revenge on Don for that insult by rubbing it in Jimmy's face, knowing Jimmy will act on it. I have the feeling that Bobbie won't stop there, either. Don humiliated & rejected & she WILL extract her pound of flesh, blood included.
I missed the anti-Semitism entirely; I thought the remark was addressed to show-biz types. Guess I'm just not with it.
PS I LOVE the BTVS references! I thought I was the only one still carrying a torch!
@ soupconthecat #404
Re: the Jimmy/Betty/Don confrontation….does anybody else notice the timing? That Jimmy only decided on the confrontation AFTER the tie-tying episode? My theory is that Bobbie is extracting revenge on Don for that insult by rubbing it in Jimmy’s face, knowing Jimmy will act on it. I have the feeling that Bobbie won’t stop there, either. Don humiliated & rejected & she WILL extract her pound of flesh, blood included.
Could be. I got the feeling that Jimmy doesn't know anything that Bobbie doesn't want him to know.
PS I LOVE the BTVS references! I thought I was the only one still carrying a torch!
We all are.
I'm still mad at FX for not showing the Saturday and Sunday morning repeats anymore.
Oh, sure, Melville, now you say the Buffyholics will storm the ramparts or whatever. Where were you when I was writing my heart out about Lilah?
Galen, I don’t know that Don’s affair with Midge ended so badly, as endings go. He pulled back a bit further than had been the routine, she pulled back to protect herself (and drew closer to someone else), and he let her go.
Hull, they had the drunken sex in Three Sundays, when the kids walked in. Oh, which may have thwarted the knock-up, come to think of it.
Melville, true dat, re pages and pages of potential Whedonchat. And me too about the repeats on FX. Many a weekend morning found me on the couch in the dark of Sunnydale.
Inanna et al, Betty also got humiliated for kissing that Jewish boy. (I paraphrase…) After that, they were all blondes.
Jane—I dunno; she does not feel good to be around.
My character likes and dislikes are almost wholly irrational, but I still love Joan. She intrigues me. And I love to see a sexy woman who's not (current-day) Hollywood-thin.
I love to see that woman on TV, I mean. Obviously, there are lots of us in real life.
The disturbing trend, though, even on MM, is that though WE love Joan's "full-figured" look, it's "out with the old, in with the new"….Jane is Next Year's Model. Back again to the thin. So much for the rest of us .
I’ve just read the entire comment thread after watching the episode last night. Whew! What an episode. My SO and I loved it.
(1) Deborah wrote: Watcher, “showbiz people†is also often coded language for Jews. “You showbiz types†doesn’t mean the WASPy showbiz types. It means the Jews; it means Samuel Goldwyn and the other Jews who built Hollywood from the very beginning, and made an industry that was a haven for Jews and yet protected anti-Semitism.
And yes, Betty kissed a Jewish boy. But this is also a part of social-accepted prejudice; that you can flirt with the “other;†it’s mo’ better blues. Rachel said it in Babylon, “one at a time is okay.â€
Yes, exactly. I was going to say that when I got to the end of the thread. I wouldn’t have said it as well. And it’s completely keeping with the kind of person Betty was raised to be and the kind of person she aspires to be that she would both express dismay at others’ racism and anti-Semitism (since it’s crude to be racist or anti-Semitic) and that she would express racist and anti-Semitic feelings herself (since people of color and Jews are coded as inferior and crude). It’s kind of like when she says to Sally that it’s impolite to talk about money. That’s a very WASP things to say. But it’s also very WASP to care a lot about status and money–to love that new Cadillac and picture oneself driving up to the club in it–while hiding that one cares.
(2) Sorry, I forget who said, As someone above mentioned, Sal is nicer to his wife than any of the straight guys. I think this is a bit of stereotyping, I mean, there had to be SOME decent straight guys out there, even in the Evil 60’s.
I looooved the scenes with Sal, Ken, and Kitty. Team Bryan Batt! The scenes about Sal’s personal life are among my favorites–so beautifully and skillfully done. As much as Sal feigned a kind of crude heterosexuality among the guys at the office in S.1, there are many ways in which he’s not bound by some of the conventions of masculinity: whether because he’s gay, or Italian and still steeped in continental ways of being, or an artist. He seems to have more freedom in self-expression (which is perhaps ironic given that he can’t express himself as a gay man). He has created openings for himself to be himself. Straight guys of the era are supposed to be dismissive of their wives. Sal shows a little of that when he says to Kitty at dinner that no one is interested in whatever topic she raised. But he also is able to act in a more genuinely caring way toward Kitty, especially in private, perhaps because he’s not as strictly bound by the heteronormative expectations of the day. He can offer to cook and clean up. His masculinity isn’t threatened by these things.
I feel sad for Sal and Kitty that he can’t just be gay, but the burgeoning friendship between Ken and Sal was lovely to watch. (Ken: please don’t freak out, please don’t freak out.) And Kitty is a delight. If she can come to terms with her situation and either find sexual fulfillment outside her relationship OR (more likely?) decide that she doesn’t need a sexual relationship to be fulfilled, and if she can keep Sal as a mentor, I see a lot of Auntie Mame potential in her.
I like Jane. She’s interesting and different. Joan is too angry and this season she’s been on one warpath after another. I had a lot of love for Joan last year, but this year, it’s warpath-against-Sheila, warpath-against-Peggy, bitchy-to-her-exes (Paul and Roger), and now warpath-against-Jane. It’s not any one of these, but the combination of all of them that makes me feel like Joan is the seething outward expression of Betty’s inward rage, and I’m sick of it.
The way they film her, heading straight down the aisle towards Jane like a battleship!
**Inanna et al, Betty also got humiliated for kissing that Jewish boy. (I paraphrase…) After that, they were all blondes.**
You know, I had interpreted that to mean that the other girls at summer camp had dyed their hair blonde to emulate shiksa goddess Betty, but I haven't seen that scene in awhile.
I think Joan is maybe angry because she realizes she wasted her "good years" so to speak on Roger, even though she was never looking for him to leave his wife or anything. He can get a newer model while still remaining married, while she's now stuck with the "old maid" perception. Like even if Joan is o.k. with being single and a Marilyn, she knows that others will see her as flawed, and she's very much about the image of perfection and correct protocol.
It's a little bit like Sal's situation. He had no problem with being the older single guy at the office, but after the dinner with Elliot he suddenly got a view of what others might think of him, and now he's married so there's no doubt that people will see him as straight.
I interepreted that scene, about Betty kissing the Jewish guy, the same way you did. IMO, she was saying the other girls were so "jealous" of her kissing the dude that they dyed their hair blonde, like hers.
Since he is currently my favorite character, I really don't wanna see Don the Doll get hurt. Much to my dismay, he tried to be "good," even turning down that stunning waitress at the Asian restaurant and wearing ol' man sweaters. He's a loving daddy, not wanting to spank his adorable little boy and actually engaged in watching his daughter's ballet demo. Yeah, he's a nympho but my heart breaks for the guy….
That is so funny that you both thought that. I am positive that it meant that she stuck with her kind so as to restore and protect her tarnished reputation.
I wonder if part of Joan's anger is in seeing that Roger doesn't love his wife or believe in marriage. In an interesting way, I think that she saw their not being able to have a future as having some meaning, some dignity to it. Now not so much.
I am still bothered by Joan not getting that Roger did not believe in marriage. I mean there was that joke about how miserable he would be without Joan: he was thinking of leaving his wife before having an affair.
Also all his fantasies about her were dehumanizing. (Having her locked in a walk up, thinking the only company she needed was a bird). I could not stand to be with a man whose fantasies about me were like that. I know I am in the minority by the Joan Roger affair left me worse than cold about the characters.
@Portia: You are NOT alone because, as much as Roger's the Silver Fox, there was something un-sexy about his affair with Joan. I'm not sure what it was that turned me off. It certainly wasn't the adultery….
**I know I am in the minority by the Joan Roger affair left me worse than cold about the characters.**
**I’m not sure what it was that turned me off. It certainly wasn’t the adultery….**
Now that I think about, what we saw of it was rather "party girl/companion"- ish. He liked her for her physical attributes and wanted her to be his kept woman. They met up in a hotel and then left and tried to be surreptitious about it. Yeah, he invited her to his place while his wife was to be out of town, but we never saw them at dinner, or her place, or having any real conversation like we did with Don/Midge or Don/Rachel. There was no real companionship or connection outside of the sex. Plus Roger was still chasing anything in a skirt, and Joan seeemed to be dating too, so there was no real purpose to their affair.
Don would never call Midge or Rachel "the best piece of ass I've ever had"… maybe Bobbie, but she'd call him the same.
Re Roger and Joan: I agree, there was no real "purpose" to their affair, but I don't think affairs need to have a purpose. It certainly had no future. I'm sure Joan wasn't thinking about it at the time, but other than the sex, she just passed time with him.
I will always remember the closing scene of Babylon – the two of them walking separately outside the hotel, pretending to not know each other, with her holding the birdcage. Then just standing there. It was a lonely scene.
I'm a fan of Joan, and it's really interesting to see the interaction between her and Peggy, and their respective positions and future. While Peggy is very smart, as far as I know she didn't go to college. She went to Miss So and So's Secretarial School (i think it was mentioned in the first episode). Yet she has the chance to rise in the organization. Joan went to college, she is smart, and she has confidence. She could aspire to more – but has she? Now she's stuck in the pink-collar ghetto and she'll never rise to being more than queen bee of the secretaries.
BTW, I think she is not faking the engagement, but I don't think we'll be seeing a blushingly happy bride come the Christmas season…
I'm so confused about the picnic scene…what was the point? It was almost like a still photo, it ran for about a minute. The woman from Don's past will definitely show up again later.
They're pretty people, with a pretty car, and they look pretty when picnicking, but they leave garbage behind. Things are not as perfect as the surface would have you believe and inside they're hot messes.
And Jimmy said to Don, "You're garbage."
@Jackie: Don’t forget Roger did give Joan that pearl necklace! (I’m not sure if it was jewelry though….LOL!)
Since there has been some Joss-talk in this thread, I want to point out that the Dr. Horrible soundtrack is available on iTunes.
I wonder if part of Joan’s anger is in seeing that Roger doesn’t love his wife or believe in marriage. In an interesting way, I think that she saw their not being able to have a future as having some meaning, some dignity to it. Now not so much.
I think this is interesting. Were you the one, Roberta, who wrote the post about Joan's being a true believer in marriage? I think that analysis has really held true for her character; I think of it often.
I'm not a fan of the Roger/Joan affair. I think she had feelings for him, but there was never any heat. Come to think of it, we haven't seen any heat in any of Joan's encounters. As sexy as she plays, we don't see her enjoying sex ever.
Yup, that was me. Also a long, long time ago, we had some discussion around what kind of lover the women on this show are… I can't for the life of me remember how/why that occurred. But I am pretty sure that I said that Joan was not so good in bed, which goes with what you're saying. My guess is that Roger is a pretty standard lover; a few good tricks, but ultimately male-orgasmcentric. They were probably pretty compatible; he and Joan, but it doesn't sound like the kind of good time I'm looking for.
Been thinking quite a bit about MM's semi-recurring leitmotif: vomit.
Now, in a lot of ways, puking is a fairly obvious dramatic device that forces a kind of catharsis (Greek for "cleansing" or "expunging") for the viewer. Unsubtle as it is, it works so damn well on MM.
I think of "Red in the Face." Don devises a plan to embarrass Roger in front of the clients by slipping a few to the elevator operator, forcing D and R to take the stairs after a lunch of oysters and heavy drinking. A plan designed to make R look like a sickly guy, like an old guy, but most of all, like a guy who can't hold down his liquor. And for the boys of Sterling Cooper c. 1960, nothing looks worse than a guy who can't keep it down. It's the ultimate sign of weakness. You can't keep up with the pack. Vomiting just spoils the facade.
And then Betty in Sunday's ep. Her puking should tell us that things are gonna go downhill fast. Going off B. Cooper's post on the main page about cars in S2: Betty just puked up a torrent of 50's oppression inside the vessel of the future, the commodity of the 60's. And there's another facade gone, spoiled by chunks of puke.
Episode also made me think of The Sopranos episode where Adriana is cornered by the feds and barfs all over the table, poodle in lap. Another sad, unsatisfied woman destroyed by a selfish, philandering sociopath. Adriana's anxiety issues make for a perfect parallel to Betty's own psychological wounds.
In the world of Mad Men, everyone's always expected to say the right thing. For the men: be quick on your feet, always have something pithy and clever waiting for the wings. For Don: less is more, remain mysterious, say too much and you're exposed. For the women: keep it flirtatious, keep it simple, keep it quiet. If you bump into a younger guy whose got his eye on you at a social function with your husband, keep it cordial, never express your true desires. Everyone layer your language with falseness and keep that pain hidden. Vomiting is the only time that the wrong thing comes out of character's mouths. The thing that spoils the new car or a business meeting. Makes you look weak or open up an even great shitstorm
@Joan Zass: LMAO! Visan…Kay….It's all good! I no longer use that nickname on Basket of Kisses….I'll answer elsewhere!;)
Visan – er, I mean Kay, WHAT IS SAB? I know it’s Betty, but WHAT DOES IT MEAN??