Aug 032008
We’re watching from separate homes tonight.
From AMC:
Paul hosts a party at his apartment and introduces someone special to his Sterling Cooper colleagues. Peggy visits her family for dinner. Despite a conflict of interest, the Sterling Cooper agency aggressively pursues an airline account and Duck attempts to appeal to the client using an unorthodox approach.
317 Responses to “Open Thread: Flight 1”
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This week I'm not going to sign on to find out that there was a live thread I didn't know about.
Oh… oops. Ms. D, we've got a live open thread.
just saying.
Yes, this time I assumed there would be and I'll continue to assume it for the rest of he season.
I'm ready!
[slightly smug]Well, I guess I"ll fix a drink and turn to my new AMC HD channel[/slightly smug]
While I will be watching on my 27" screen that was considered large when I bought it, back in the 20th century. 27 inches of pure viewing pleasure, baby!
Here we go.
Yay! "Guest starring Robert Morse"
Peggy's dress is even dowdier than I'd thought.
Mine is only 26" too, but I stupidly bought it almost 4 years ago at twice the price HD LCD tvs are are now. So you win.
Yeah so I live five minutes from Montclair. I to to yoga in Montclair.
OOoooh, shit, Joan. Meeooww!
Fuck Deb's right. SC is the whole building!
Ugh, Peggy's gross jacket almost made me think she was pregnant again…
I predict Pete will regret his comment.
This episode was in memory of…
I knew it!
Elle is my witness that I predicted it.
Three cheers for alcohol! The cause of and solution to all of life's problems." – Homer Simpson
Poor Pete, he's so devoid of natural emotions, he has to come to *Don* for advice on faking them.
Wow.
He's like Anya. Only weirder.
I don't know he's devoid of feelings — a shock like that can leave you empty.
Pete is strangely literal and newly human?
I bought some Asian woodcut printed notecards at TJ Maxx this week inspired by Bert's office, but of course I never send note cards, so total wasre of money.
Pretty much, Ms. D. Plus he's strangely grounded in the moment.
No contest: The Campbells are the creepiest family.
Roberta, now that you mention it, there is a resemblance to Anya's confusion in The Body.
Mr. Campbell will never drink fruit punch again.
What? Too soon?
They seriously are creepy and kooky.
Is that a different Pete's mother?
And way to have cloned daughters-in-law.
Do love the moment when Pete said "Will I cry?" True, he is seeming strangely human this episode. But yes, the Campbells seem right out of Eugene O'Neill…
Ohh la la! I am loving this episode already.
Pete isn't known for his exceptional emotional capacity, but I am glad that MW didn't use the opportunity to show a 'softer, sensitive' Pete Campbell. Regardless of whether it's shock or innate inability to access his emotions (my vote), it's very fitting.
Shit. Now I want a ham sandwich.
WHOA! What happened to Carlton's face?!!
I wonder which # Bobby this is?
Good thing they're getting Sally started early on mixing drinks.
Peggy and the vacuum – lol!
The kid is mixing drinks???
Is Peggy jewish?
Where do I know the sister(?) from?
I can't tell if that's the same Carlton.
Oops, obviously not.
Light a candle is Catholic.
Is Peggy an atheist like me?
Um, what now?
Holy fuck! They psych-warded her!
More confused that ever — did she confess to Don from the psych-ward?
Oh my, it sounds like Peggy has had a run-in with the state institution…
OMG They took Peggy's baby!!!
Bobby is totally his father's son!
That has to explain the lack of child. I kept expecting him to toddle out to Peggy and her family.
Jeez, They fake fatted Carlton
I think it means that they made the decision for her. They took away Petey Jr.
Don seems kind of turned on by Betty's card shark-ness…
OMG they have the baby!!!
He's adorable!!!!
oops! No!
Wait — is the sister the neighbor on Big Love? I should just look this up.
OHHH!! Aunt Peggy!!!!
That totally broke my heart. How can she be so heartless.
Or think of her as an "aunt".
I am so happy that the baby is still in the story. I was afraid that the sister was insinuating that the baby was taken away.
OK I gotta say it. The scene of Pete going into Don's office after he learns of his father IS NOT the preview we got online. Then Dons kinda shooed him off before he could find out what happened. Matt is screwing with us.
I don't know how I feel about a whole baby drama — I'm one of those weird people who would want the child to show up in a later season instead.
The episode is going too fast. I wish it was two hours long…
Man, Betty is all business these days, she's a bit scary.
O.K., Betty knows that Don cheated, Don knows she knows, and Betty knows that Don knows she knows.
I know, Elle! Definitely not the same.
I just made my 10 year-old son, Alex come over and give me a big hug. I needed it after that scene with Peggy's "nephew".
Sorry, Jackie – I know that Jewish people light candles in loved ones' memories, so I thought this meant something else. Blame it on the gimlets.
But Melville, Do they know that you know that they know? LOL
Elle, the show's not over. There could be another scene. Pete's neediness might continue and wear Don down.
The baby would only be 14 months old or so. So, is that the baby?
Hmmm, I don't know, Elle.
Good point, R.
Don seemed impatient in the earlier scene — like he had to comfort Pete, but still found him odious.
I am okay with waiting for the baby to appear in the actual storyline later. Maybe Grandma gets sick and sister decide she doesn't want to raise him. There was some foreshadowing about the mom's health.
I am just glad that we got some acknowledgement that the baby is still around.
Just like the scene last season when Betty tells Don that she doesn't want to work anymore, Don and Betty are both complicit in the lie. It's the m.o. of their relationship…
Point to Ms. D – definitely grieving for someone with a dissociative personality.
LOL, Joan! "Describe her to me."
I agree he's seeing her to be cutting edge.
Jeez Joan, "Bitter" much?
Duck will become Pete's new father figure.
Damn, Joan – the layers in that conversation were downright geological.
Wow, Joan is SO angry. I love it.
Pete should pull out the gun — Duck Season!
I love Pete in this.
That's right. Love.
wow, Pete not being opportunistic? Things have changed.
LOL Ms D!!!!!!!!
But why is she angry? She has her Doctah, she dumped Paul? Maybe she still carries a torch?
This must be when he dissed Pete
Joan dumped Paul because he told people at the office about them, so it was out of principle…so maybe she does still carry a torch, as Ellelque said?
I think she does carry a torch. She labeled him a mistake in eppie 1, which means she's still into him.
Ewww! The ugliest Peggy dress yet!
Here it comes
Matt is so clever
There's the scene. Brutal!
I don't think it's as simple as basic jealousy – I think Joan has a lot of buried anger, not the least of which stems from her unease with the shifting 60's society.
Zing 1, Paul 1, Joan 0
Good points, Joy, definitely agree.
And… I called it. Matt didn't fuck with us… at least not in the dishonest way that was being intimated.
It's happened. They got me to feel sorry for Pete.
You called it Sister Lipp. I raise my orange Crystal Lite to Matt in his clever twist.
A) Chemistry.com is the absolute fucking worst.
B) I was a rock DJ, with some new and some classic. :p
LOL Roberta
Yeah, Pete is a weasel, but a weasel in need of a father figure. So far Duck and Don have both let him down. Not that Don is obligated, but Duck was really low-rent.
I kinda always feel a little sorry for Pete. He is like a little boy who does't really feel loved. He love Peggy. I hope in the end he ends up with her. I mean in the very end of the story. They are kinda my Jim/Pam right now. In a dark, twisted way.
Jimmy Kimmel and Sara Silverman broke up — now she's free to be with Matt Damon.
I know! I'm feeling sorry for Pete and proud of Betty – this season *is* full of twists…
I think he could love Peggy, but I'm not sure that he does now.
So much for cutting down on the drinking and smoking, Don…
Joan's a catty "B!" Just know I've been on the receiving end of a chick angry that her ex "lowered" himself to date a sistah! It's where I learned to cut a "B"! Well, only with cutting words! LOL!
Poor Don. The man does have ethics.
Ouch ouch OUCH!!!
Oh, Pete — no!
It will serve Duck right if he doesn't get American Airlines.
Duck is using Pete!!
Whoa, way to exploit your father's death, Pete. He's baaackkk…
Oh, Pete, really — no!
Why are we viewers proud of Betty again?
Annnnd… Sneaky Pete pulls it off again.
Holy crap, Pete's a genius. He's going to guilt them into signing.
Great song choice.
Oh, Don — no!
That was his reason for being so nice to Pete. What a shifty asshole. Pete actually let himself be used. Do you think Pete knew what he just did, or was he being manipulated? Is Pete that cold?
I bet Don would like to look at her menu…oh! maybe not…
Well, I'm personally proud of the backbone Betty has shown so far this season, she's definitely become more assertive and willing to hold her own in "the game" than in the first six episodes of last year.
I think Pete was sticking it to Don, shifting loyalty.
Don needs his mojo back–STAT!
Pete is not that cold.
Duck is proud of him. Duck offered him a father's hand. Pete feels like a dirty bastard for this, but was drawn to it to please Duck.
the end by rkl
I think he was reacting as a child would, which is exactly Pete's style.
RIP Christopher Allport!
The church is really welcoming, huh?
*sigh* These episodes are always so short…
I think Pete was manipulated and will regret this later. I think when Don hears about it, he will feel it again confirms his feeling about how low Pete will stoop.
I have to say the saddest part of the show was the ending with Peggy holding her screaming child. Thsi episode was very sad all the way around.
Oh my God that look Pete gives Peggy across the office…
Damnit, there is so much going on there! ARGH why can't this show be just about them!
That was the actor who played Pete's dad. He died recently.
Were they making a point that she was too impure to take communion?
I agree, Joy, I find the changed Betty very interesting this season, and it's compelling to see how her interplay with Don is changing as well…and also how she presents herself to people in general, she's not taking any shit anymore (well, compared to last season).
Oh, should have said before that Paul will drink no Rhone Gallager before it's time.
Good question, Ms. D. I think that was the implication, unless it was also that Peggy is a non-believer now and wouldn't be inclined to take communion anyway.
I don't think Duck really expected Pete to do that. I think Pete did it on his own.
Just curious, Elle – do you find all the episodes to be sad, or only a few? I'll admit I was initially attracted to the show's glamourous style and quick wit, but I've found myself loving it even more because every episode is quite bittersweet, and I enjoy the darkness and cruelty that lurks below the pretty facade.
I have tried to encourage everyone I work with to watch the show. I work with a lot of African Americans and I have had a hard time explaining to them about the show and how it might seem offending. But it is based on history and they have to view it as something that will evolve. That show show depicts the black characters with a lot of intelligence and how they seem to be a little more evolved than the ignorant white characters.
I wonder what the Black demographics are for the show. I mean I am a woman and this show is really offensive to use.
Me, too. I feel that there's a melancholy tone to each episode, and I'm drawn to the show for that reason. I think many of the actors imbue their performances with this tone. It shows MM's high quotient of emotional intelligence and authenticity, and as Joy said, the darkness that lurks below the facade.
Don loves the brunettes, eh?
In case it hasn't been mentioned, and I'm sure it has been somewhere, Idlewild Airport will be renamed JFK in a couple years.
Haunting. The show was described to me recently as haunting.
Oh, I didn't catch that, Ms. D! Very interesting.
Wait. what was posted on the board that made Joan so mad?
Vincent K. played this ep really well, I think. Rewatching it now, I love the part where he tells Don about his Dad, and he says the name of the barber at which he last saw his father. Such a great small detail, and very realistic that he would say something so seemingly trivial in such a state. I am always amazed how the writing on this show feels to me like that of a great short story or novel.
A xerox of her driver's license that showed that she is 31.
But you know this whole episode, the only person who seemed to really have a conscious and seem to "feel" was Don. Everyone, including Peggy and Betty seemed like they were living on automatic pilot.
Except maybe Paul, he was very pissed.
Okay one theme of the episode (I'm re-watching) is, per Don to Pete,
Something with her birth date is all I was able to make out — driver license or something from HR.
Did we notice that Slattery is no longer a guest star?
For those interested, an article on the AA Flight #1 crash:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,…
We did. We just didn't say it.
I loved when Cooper laughed at Don's comment about "We represent the airline that's plane didn't just fall out of the air."
This was a fantastic episode. I thought the entire party sequence at the beginning was definitely a great way to start the show. I have to say that I felt really bad for Pete. The scene where he found out about his dad being on the flight and the range of emotions that were getting to him, I could not help but feel sorry for him. I thought Vincent Kartheiser definitely gave a fantastic performance. We also get to meet Peggy's family in the episode as well, and I thought it was great to meet her family and finding out some more information about Peggy's son. Elisabeth Moss continues to enhance to her performance of Peggy so very well. I definitely enjoyed the scenes at the Draper home with Don & Betty's kids.
All in all, it was a fantastic episode and it was so very much appropriate that the episode was dedicated to the late Christopher Allport (who played Pete's dad). I can't wait for Episode 3.
Let's thank Laura in research!
@Elle….
I am black and I love the show! It's entertainment! Sadly, it reflects what occurred (and still happens a lot) socially! Bottom line…it's supposed to be entertaining!
Plus, Jon Hamm's sexy as hell! I digress!
thanks Laura Leone. that part of the episode made me really wish I had hdtv.
Oh, and I'm glad we have confirmation that Peggy is still living on her own and not with her parents. Though the season premiere seemed to indicate that her surroundings have gotten better–she had a nice vanity and pretty pink accessories on the table.
Funny that she wouldn't answer the phone like that, though. I have to wonder what the call was about.
Love the mother's reaction to the pink elephant. Now that was a genuine moment of mourning.
I think the call was her mother or her sister, pestering her about dinner and reminding her to bring the vacuum cleaner.
Here's an article about the real death of the actor who played Pete's Father – Chris Allport – really sad: http://techblogbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/death-of-…
Little bit about authenticity, this one. Joan is angry at Paul because he's a frickin fake; he doesn't really love the girlfriend, it just makes him look cool. Betty is angry at Don because their whole life is fake. Pete prostituted himself because he had no way of accessing his emotions. Peggy can't stand to hold her baby.
Authenticity.
No problem, leave it to me to find the gruesome details. I like that it's an article actually from March 1, 1962. At the time, it was the worst air disaster in US history.
I loved this episode, it felt really cohesive, unlike last week's, imo.
I'm glad everyone else enjoys this dichotomy – I was afraid I sounded like a sociopath in my earlier comment. :J Till next week, Basketcases!
Okay — I finally looked — Peggy's sister IS the neighbor on Big Love.
If there isn't Whedonverse people, there's BL people — Anne Dudek plays one of Alby's wives.
Nice, Mike.
So everyone is a fake except Don. Maybe that is what I was sensing when I meant the "feel" thing. It makes sense to me.
I do love how Don stopped Carlton's sleaze story. Jeez, the childre are bartending? LOL
The two Campbell sister-in-laws look like they could be real life sisters. Kind of odd how both Bud and Pete choose girls who have that certain "look".
I guess Peggy had post partem depression, as well as the shock. That would have been considered crazy back then.
Were they making a point that she was too impure to take communion?
She refused to go to confession. You can't take communion without going to confession first.
Peter G., we wrote about Allport's death when it happened.
Why did they fake fat Carlton?
Jesus, Betty's disdain for her son is pretty rough.
The bartending scene reminded me of Christina Crawford — she used to mix the drinks for Joan Crawford and a series of men she'd be told to call uncle, and she'd make them extra strong tp watch the adults get smashed.
Mike, beautiful about the elephant in the room.
About Peggy, I suspect she wanted to give up her baby, but the doctors and the State decided she wasn't capable of making her own decisions, and allowed the mother and/or sister to have custody. The baby is clearly being raised as the sister's, in the room with the other kids who call Peggy "Aunt Peggy."
Deborah,
I'm sure you're right for the most part, but I went to Catholic School, never went to confession — the nuns wanted to know if I was secretly Jewish — and they still let me take communion.
Boy Anne Dudek does get around! Cut throat Bitch, Polygamist Wife, 1960 Suburb wife. She morphs well.
Mike, nice.
Yes! Christina Crawford, absolutely.
Also, I don't think she had post-partum, or if she did, that she was diagnosed. I think the fact she didn't know she was pregnant (and was unmarried) was enough.
Thanks Deborah – I know you did – and a great job in January too. But you have SOOOO many new participants now, I thought many of them may not have been aware that that actor actually died – and that Matt worked his death into this episode beautifully. Thanks.
My mother let me read "Mommy Dearest" when I was about 10, and then got pissed when I would call her that when I was angry. LOL.
Regarding Peggy not taking communion. I saw it on a couple of levels. If Peggy is Catholic (which I'm assuming but not totally sure) she technically is not supposed to take Communion unless she has gone to confession with a Priest. This is not upheld as much anymore but I'm betting that back in the time of the show that was something that was still followed. This kind of leads into the second level wherein Peggy has sort of falling from her faith and is not a true believer anymore but also she has become impure and not sought forgiveness, which would be important to her family it seems as they seem to be religious.
Seriously, Roberta. It's almost contempt that Betty has, and that whole speech about dishonesty, and Bobby accepting praise for something that 'he didn't do'. Betty has serious issues.
Very cool, Mike, I didn't think of that elephant thing!
Thanks, Deborah, for clarifying the communion thing. I'm Jewish, so I don't know the details about confession/communion. You know they say, "Catholics go to confession, Jews tell everybody." bwaha!
The real death was what allowed me to figure out the twist in this episode, that combined with Pete looking stricken.
Deb, yes. Joan says to Paul, "I'm not a phony".
Authenticity.
Carlton looks terrible! He was caught cheating and is eating himself to death? WTF?
As to which sultry brunette is on Don's mind? Since he was in an Asian restaurant, I vote Rachel.
I recall Rachel and her sister being in one last season and that may have been a place Don and Rachel did "business" last season. Who knows?
Kay, Jews always go out for Chinese.
Trust me on this.
Just because she wasn't diagnosed does not mean she didn't have it back then. I meant, the shock of the birth, the hormonal changes and stigmatizm of it all was probably the reason for the commitment, or the "city of NY, intervening as the sister hints.
I don't think that particular illness was even in the MSN or ICD at that time.
haha Roberta, yes, especially on Christmas Day. Movies and Chinese food.
Overall, brilliant episode. Brilliant. Reminds me of Marriage of Figaro. And VK is a frickin genius.
Regarding Peggy and communion. My mother grew up a practicing Catholic and while she no longer does. She refuses to take communion as she does not do confession, even if she periodically attends mass.
I think Peggy feels her situation puts her outside the whole confession/absolution cycle. Therefore she could not take communion. The scenes with the baby were sad. I don't think I could love child as my own in that situation. And the baby crying seemed to confirm that to her.
The phone call must have been about the vacume. She overslept with the hangover and had to bring it to work before returning to her mother.
I trust ya, Roberta!;)
I'm just trying to make some connection as to why Don got that slutty look on his face, if it was more than simply a gorgeous waitress wanting to attend his "needs!"
Frankly, Don being some good daddy/monk ain't workin' for me! He needs to return to being a man-whore…post-haste!
Kay, I don't think that was a slutty look, I think it was recognition—Don is a man women flirt with, and he knew he was being flirted with. At the same time, he wasn't interested.
I honestly don't think Don is the get-her-up-against-the-wall type. The only women we've seen him with are women he's in a relationship with. He didn't want the twin.
And speaking of that, how gross was Roger's comment about the stewardesses? I think my prediction will come true; Roger's going to get caught with an underage girl!
Most everything Roger says is disgusting — that's how we know Charlie Rose is not a viewer — he asked Slattery if he was "the rock." Don't get the snow on the roof fool you, there's fire down below.
let*
Agreed, Elle. That's why I phrased it the way I did. I would never declare she didn't have it; just that it wasn't why she was 'supervised'.
I also believe Francine had it, the depression, or possibly the psychosis, after the birth of her daughter, when she talked about murdering her entire family.
Goodnight everyone, It is midnight here in Tampa. It was nice watching the show with someone else. No one I know watches this, so I have no one to talk about it with. But I am working on it. Loaning out my season 1 DVD.
Watching again (I'm going to be so sleepy tomorrow at work!), and the look on Pete's face after he leaves Don's office is just devastating. This is his Emmy episode for next year's voting.
I think any woman who didn't seem to bond with her baby would be looked at as "ill." They could understand her feeling shame, maybe even being too "stupid" to know she was pregnant, but to not want to hold the baby?
quick correction on past entry (DSM) Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (Not MSN). The late night is getting to me.
True, Francine did mention in the scene in The Wheel, to Betty, that her mind hadn't "been the same since the baby was born".
"Cut throat Bitch, Polygamist Wife, 1960 Suburb wife…"
Don't forget insecure expat book aficionado! For all Anne Dudek fans, I highly recommend "The Book Group" – it was my favorite show when I lived in Scotland, and I'm so glad she's having such great success lately in the states.
True dat, Ms D.
Just finished the second time. It is indeed a brilliant episode, and VK's winner. I gotta go to bed. I suspect there will be several more tired Mondays in my future, including the morning after the Emmys!
Night, all.
Pleasure chatting with everyone, night, Roberta and everyone.
Betty really needs to invest in a dark wig.
Good night, everyone.
re: Peggy and communion. I, too, was raised Catholic, but that was in the 70's (post Vatican II.) Vatican II was a huge change for the church, it meant masses were no longer in Latin (as they are in this episode) and a more active participation from Catholics was encouraged. In practice, it meant the church became a lot less strict about a lot of things. As for Peggy, it could be either she doesn't want to participate, or she can't because she won't confess. It's impossible to tell without more information.
The Duck v. Don office battle is playing out nicely. I loved Duck's move to get Pete on his side. Pete's attempt to solicit Don's advice for the 2nd time this episode (on the heels of Don learning about the decision to "fire" Mohawk as a client) was awesome. Just when you thought Don had some sort of feeling for Pete this moment showed Don's true feelings something Pete picked up on (c'mon Don, Pete's dad just died what happened to the family/work discussion). Very cool Don ends up sending Pete into Duck's camp – remember Pete originally wanted the job Duck got – Don supported him. Now a year later the world is upside down -Pete and Duck are allies. Also of note, Don seems to be living a more ethical life (no cheating) but he is reminded the ad game isn't ethical (ethical doesnt get you a beach house). Will we see a more cutthroat Don at work and more importantly as scene with waitress suggested will Don be tempted to start cheating again. One last note, great to finally see what happened with Peggy and her baby – also gave us great insight on Peggy's home life. My bet is that Peggy was in parent's care after birth and the family decided that her sister would take care of baby – would not arouse suspicion. Note – Peggy is somewhat of outkast at work, outkast at home with family, and when she finally goes to church she is an outkast there (and is unable to calm her baby). Where does she fit in?
Hello. I've got to say, I felt Trudy was the pink elephant. Notice how close the other daughter-in-law was sitting to Pete's mom. And Mrs. Campbell kept complimenting her while Trudy was the sore thumb in the room, without a clue as to what to do to be loved. She's used to being loved and feted.
And I felt like Trudy being the pink elephant was confirmed when we see her with the pink towels later.
Good night and thank you for the site!
Wait, wait, wait! I'm on the west coast, so I haven't seen tonight's epi. Did I hear that Paul's girlfriend is Black? I so called that! I can't believe I was right for a change. Was June Lockhart in tonight's episode, too? Is she a member of Peggy's family?
Nice, Saber.
No June Lockhart.
Hello hullaballoo! There's lots to see this episode.
Thank you Ms. Darkly.
(c’mon Don, Pete’s dad just died what happened to the family/work discussion).
"Mourning is just extended self-pity."
And regarding Paul and his girlfriend, and who won the argument between Paul and Joan: Remember Paul and his story about how he was in a bar in Jersey City with a bunch of Negroes and they all got along? Yeah, I'm with Joan on this one.
I know, everything about Paul at the party was pretentious.
So true. His whole get-up was horrid. He looked liked he was dressed for Halloween.
Has Joan ever lied? She was brutally honest with Roger about their relationship at the hotel. She was never colder in her remarks than at the party and with Paul. But she seems to have learned a lot about him.
Okay so not quite in bed yet.
I agree that Joan was 100% right in what she said to Paul, and that she learned a lot about him. However, she was 100% wrong about speaking that way to Sheila, and we all learned a lot about her.
"It's what people do."
Don wants things done the right way. Last season: "Doesn't seem fair." The elevator confrontation last week. There's a right way and a wrong way. Dumping Mohawk was the wrong way.
And the other thing: Whatever lie Don tells, he believes. The speech about loyalty he'd given to the Mohawk guy? He believed it. That's how he is so persuasive.
Yeah, Joan was brutal — I would like to think she was warning Sheila, but, nah — too obnoxious.
Oh yes. That was completely wrong. And I don't think I could have been as gracious as Sheila was and ignore it. I think Joan should have held her tongue and if she did have to say something, she should have only told Paul what she thought of him. But then, she wouldn't be Joan. Anyway, I think I'll continue to shudder when I think of what she said to poor Sheila.
Well, in a way Sheila's color was another elephant in the room, and Joan is not one to ignore these things.
It was…it was a nasty thing to say, but honestly, do we listen to a woman who starts with "When we were together…"? It's like, "Warning, he's my ex and I'm going to be catty."
I kind of miss the non douchebag Paul. Or was he always a douchebag?
I thought the pink elephant was something from an affair of Pete's father. I don't know why I think this, the Trudie theory is probably right. Did anyone else notice how unhappy Jennifer and Harry are? Oy! It was nice to finally meet Jennifer, but she obviously hasn't gotten over Hildygate.
Hahaha, yeah you're right Deborah. And so are you Ms. Darkly. I hadn't thought of that.
I think Paul was always a little phony, at least as far back as "Ladies Room".
That reminds me of the line about Don knowing Paul works hard to impress him.
Now we know why Pete's father didn't give him any money for the new apartment.
No doubt Paul is a jerk! But Joan was a nasty piece of work to Sheila!
Right, Kay. It was really disappointing. I'm hoping someone does something soon that'll allow me to root for them!
There is a photo on the amc website of Don smoking with a well dressed woman who looks like Rachel. She holds her cigarette like Rachel anyway.
I had a bunch of comments written down from watching the episode a second time, but you all pretty much covered them, ha! Still trying to figure out why Peggy had the vacuum at work, I'm sure there are cleaning people who come in at night, so the only explanation would be that she was bringing it back to mom's house and had to bring it to work. I was sure I had read that Peggy's baby was being taken care of by the family, so that appears to be right. Peggy sure can be cold. There seems to be a lot going on under her icy exterior. Don should have chatted up Pete when he came in his office the second time, maybe he wouldn't have gone into Duck's camp after all. Personally, I thought Paul really liked his new girlfriend. I guess I did notice he was being a little pretentious at the party, with the pipe and the fancy booze, but the girlfriend seemed legitimate. What Joan said was truly awful, either way. The line that made me laugh out loud from the whole show was Don telling his son, "Everything is great! Go back to bed!" Laughed both times I saw it. For some reason it just cracked me up. Well, MM is on for the third time, guess I better get to bed and watch a little.
after a better close up it's Betty. oops. I guess I was hopeful.
Paul has always been smoking a pipe, though. It was mentioned in the commentary of Episode 2 that Matt completely changed the character of Paul and turned him into the more 'sophisticated' type, which is why you see him always smoking a pipe (with a few exceptions) compare to everyone else smoking cigarettes. Paul is forcing a writer's lifestyle in this season compared to the more 9-5 appearance he had before, changing the way he dresses and the mention of a marijuana odor leads an impression that he's attempting to fit into the mould of a writer that he really doesn't fit into. Wasn't there a comment about how he 'needed' the typewriter because he is a writer? It's almost as if he needs a girlfriend of a different race to help prove that he is a writer in order to fit in with the well-known writers of that era, when in actuality he's an outcast to that lifestyle.
Upon rewatching, one of my favorite parts was Pete pretending to know who George Inness was. Also, wow but Jennifer is not getting along with Harry and doesn't seem to care who knows it.
Speaking of attention to detail, the truck-driver who went on a blind date with Peggy in "Indian Summer" was sitting one row behind the Olsen family in church.
Shel, Duck's contact in American Airlines, is played by long-time Star Trek supporting actor Vaughn Armstrong, who is most notable for having appeared in every live-action Trek series save for the original one. Between him, Christina Hendricks, and Denise "Lt. Tasha Yar" Crosby as Gertie in last week's episode, Mad Men is becoming positively Space Age.
Simone, I think its someone else, the wife of the celebrity guy doing the chip ad.
I looked closely and I don't think Betty would have that coat or that hat, and the woman has red hair.
I am with you Joy. It is a very tragic show in many ways. I love to see the love and smiles, but the sadness and anger make it more real.
What the hell is it with the pink elephant?
Don loves the brunettes, eh?
So the question arising from Don’s last scene this week is the same as his last scene last week: Is he thinking of Rachel, or Midge?
Christina Hendricks just turned 30 in May.
The dress finally looked good though — when the skirt was puddled across the bed — nice effect.
Kay I figured that when you make that Joan comment. that is what made me think about it I am glad that you are part of the demographic. I think this show should be seen by everyone.
Yes, that Hamm man makes me feel all tingly like.
But I admit. If I was gay, I would have a thing for Joan too. kinda have a girl crush on her. Don’t tell hubby.
I took the elephant thing as now the “elephant in the room” is gone.
Night, Elle.
I wonder who’ll get the fat suit next year.
Ethical Don resisted the temptation of the American Airlines grab in Cooper's Asian-themed office and later resisted the temptation of the waitress in an Asian-themed restaurant.
**Joan’s a catty “B!†Just know I’ve been on the receiving end of a chick angry that her ex “lowered†himself to date a sistah! It’s where I learned to cut a “Bâ€! Well, only with cutting words! LOL!**
LOL, Kay, me too. Damn, this board is busy. I had to scroll through a lot of posts to reply to yours.
Paul is definitely a poseur, but we've known that from day one. No one who writes "Death Is My Client" will ever be a real contender. And Joan may have just been catty, but I think deep down she knew exactly what she was doing. Exactly. Nice comeuppance, though. That last scene between her and Peggy was fantastic. Joan trying to hold on to her last shred of dignity, and Peggy understanding, but possibly pitying her, too? Great acting, that.
Overall I really liked this episode. But man, these people are screwed up.
I was hoping to like Jennifer, but I couldn't warm up to her. Her eyes looked hollow and soulless. I avoid people like that if I can. Kitty Romano seems like lots of fun, though.
Poor Don. Looks like he's getting the Pete Campbell emasculation special from every which way. That poor man needs a feisty brunette, but quick. His "I'll say whatever you want, but I'm not going to argue with you" was just sad.
I find it really interesting how Weiner is utilizing the Paul character to slowly begin infusing the show with the notion of the dramatic cultural changes beginning and to come in this decade. Just think, we went from the button-down suit-wearing, Eisenhower adoring late 50s-early 60s to by the end of the decade, Hippies, Yippies, LSD, turn-on & tune-out, riots in the streets, the Vietnam War, free love, flower children, Jimmy Hendrix, In-A-Gaada-Da-Vidda, Woodstock, Assassinations, and so much more. I know these changes have been previously discussed extensively (and well) in BoK – but it just struck me last night that Michael Gladis' character Paul, may end up being one of the most symbolically important (Paul liked or disliked) characters in the show. A great episode.
Hull, I wanted to like Jennifer too. You nailed it exactly. Unless pregnancy is making her really, really sick.
Catch the irony: Joan telling Peggy that people should behave professionally in the office, while standing in front of the Xerox machine she had put into Peggy's office as a petty act of revenge. Hello!
Good morning. *yawn*
Re: Jews and Chinese restaurants:
Benjy Stone: Catherine, Jews know two things: suffering, and where to find great Chinese food.
-My Favorite Year
I agree that Paul, with his pipe and his bad play, is a poseur (God, didn't anyone tell him how ridiculous he looked with the silly scarf?), and Joan was right in what she said to him (notice he had no comeback when she said "what part wasn't true.") But her crack at Sheila was pure bitchery. She said it just to stick it to Paul. The racism was almost incidental in her view, which makes it seem crueller, and very of the time.
About Peggy not taking communion — didn't she state quite clearly to her sister, earlier in the episode when the latter tried to convince her to light a candle at church, "It doesn't mean the same thing to me as it does to her [their mother]"? I think she has rejected her faith.
That last scene with her holding her baby was rather wrenching.
Hullabaloo — I agree about Kitty Romano. But of course, no self-respecting gay man would marry a boring woman! (o:
Excellent episode…definitely more interesting than last week. And the baby!!!! I fell out of my chair! Esp. after the crack about the State of NY!
Benjy Stone: Catherine, Jews know two things: suffering, and where to find great Chinese food.
I had a painful ingrown toenail. I told the (Jewish) podiatrist that I had to be able to dance at my brother's upcoming wedding. I explained that my (Jewish) brother was marrying a Chinese woman. He said "Well, that's good. They both like the same food."
*But her crack at Sheila was pure bitchery. She said it just to stick it to Paul. The racism was almost incidental in her view, which makes it seem crueller, and very of the time.*
Exactly. Paul said Sheila managed the grocery store, but Joan immediately reduced to her a check-out girl in her head, and made sure to inflate her own title from head secretary (according to Paul) to office manager. Then the cracks about being able to shop where she worked- Joan probably assuming that Sheila was from one of the less nice parts of Newark instead of having grown up in Montclair- so there was a whole class pissing war that she wasn't going to win in addition to the race thing.
As another black fan myself, that scene particularly stung. It's the harsh version of the "Do you work here?" I've gotten at nice hotels and stores, when I'm not obviously not wearing a nametag
In other news, the season 2 soundtrack is on its way to being awesome.
There's not much that hasn't already been covered, so I'll just add my "flavor" of comments…
Both times Pete went to Don, it sure looked like he was contemplating going to Peggy. The second time, they even made eye contact.
It will be interesting to see if the changes we are seeing in Don will be long lasting. His disgust at Carlton, his disenchantment at Sterling Cooper dropping Mohawk.
Which reminds me of his line, "There's life, and there's work." It felt like he was treating the Mohawk relationship more like "life" than "work."
I loved the line from the Mohawk guy "Sterling Cooper is Don Draper." Pretty ironic, given the circumstances in which Don did not want to drop Mohawk. Perhps Duck is more "Sterling Cooper" these days.
And the fact that Don Draper isn't even Don Draper, makes it all the more ironic of a statement.
Duck is an interesting character to me – he seems like he could be who Pete turns into as Pete gets older. Manipulating just to get the better client.
Also interesting to me was that Duck went directly to Cooper's office rather than going to Don. Wasn't Don the one who hired him? But he went over Don's head to Cooper about his contact at American Airlines.
(Or am I confused about the reporting structure at SC?)
Ellelque – Loved your observation that these days, everyone but Don is fake!
Jackie, definitely a race/class pissing war, but Joan is obviously and unmistakably the office manager. There was also gender pissing going on there; he was diminishing her title so that she was more "girly."
Positively brilliant episode.
Love the way Peggy lets that guy she's making out with know how unimpressed she is with his efforts to get her in the sack. " I'm in the persuasion business and frankly I'm disappointed in your presentation." Also, when he says "you work for these stuffed shirts" she makes a point of saying she works "with" them. She wants to make sure the guy knows she's got equal status with the men in the office.
The kids being trained on how to make proper cocktails for the adults was hilariously twisted. Unfortunately it probably wasn't all that uncommon back then.
Joan definitely takes first place for nasty remarks. But Betty comes in a close second with her horrible comments about her son. I'm not so sure Betty really likes having children. They're entirely too messy and unpredictable for an ultra perfectionist like her. Look out for the wire coat hangers!
The scene where Pete shows up to the meeting with Duck and the American Airlines guy and uses his father's death as a way to seal the deal made my skin crawl. Is there any level he won't sink to? His character is always disturbingly fascinating to watch, though.
Though last weeks show was great, I definitely thought this one was so much more revealing.
Jackie, the other thing I noticed was that Joan was projecting onto Sheila her own goal of getting married. She said something to the effect of, "One day you'll be able to drive there in a station wagon as a customer" — in other words, once you've snagged a hubby and you're buying groceries in your big ol' car.
I found that rather presumptuous. Maybe Sheila has other things in mind.
And I agree about the soundtrack!
What really sucked about Joan's comments to Sheila was the crap about "shopping in the place where she worked." It was a socio-economic dig. As if Sheila was too poor and "too black" to enter the store. Huh?
Another thing….My heart broke when I saw Don in that sweatervest! He's become "Cliff Huxtable" from the Cosby Show, one of those lame TV daddies I just knew the writers would make him if Don tried to be "good." Gosh, I really miss Don in man-whore mode! And judging from some messages on other boards, I am not alone! Don's "castration" is not enjoyable TV….*sad*
Sister Lipp, I have to admit, I have been laughing out loud about your Jewish/Chinese food comments. I am not Jewish, and I have never heard of this. But I guess all religions have their jokes.
I was raised Baptist. They discourage sex, it might lead to dancing.
I agree Rondi, I was a product of those kind of moms and I grew up extremely independant. I used to run the streets with my friends. I never smoked. But I did have a lot of fun as a teen when I wasn't being watched. But kid stuff compared to what the teens do today.
I have one son. I also go through the whole self-esteem thing. I maybe overdo it. But he is 10, I have him vaccum, load and unload dishes, walk the dogs. He is allowed to microwave his own food.
But I am on pins and needles when I have to leave him alone at times. I call the house every hour. When he walks the dog, I have the window open so I can hear him. I actually got him a small cell phone to put in his pocket so that he could go outside and ride his bike and be with his friends. I am so afraid some perv is gonna snatch him.
I mean when I was 10, I had three little brothers (age 6,7 and
and I was babysitting then for my parent's 8 hour shifts in the summer. If I was sick, as early as age 7, I stayed home by myself for the day. I remember actually cooking hamburgers in on the stove at age 9 while home sick!
It is hard to find that fine line between being over-protective and neglectful.
I agree with Rhondi.
**For me, it was the jokes about the crashed plane that really made me wince out loud however.**
It's very consistent with the show though. People do tend to joke immediately after tragedy and they tend to not always realize the significance of an event.
For instance, we've elevated The Kennedy Admin to this Gilded Era, this Camelot, perhaps even more after Nixon left office in shame, but certainly after the assassination and the assassination of Bobby Kennedy. The show is scrupulous in saying that he barely won and that the world didn't instantly get brighter and happier when he took the oath of office.
I don't recall any jokes after 9/11, but I sure remember them after the first Space Shuttle exploded. NASA — Need Another Seven Astronauts — was one of the nicer ones.
I thought it was a great touch to have Pete tell a joke, because it's real. Nobody would tell these jokes if they consciously realized, there but for the Grace of God — but they tell them because they unconsciously realize. Like whistling while walking past a graveyard.
I don't think the cocktail scene was that bad either, but it was just something you don't see today. My mother used to drink Bailey's and Milk and if she wasn't looking I would filch it, but I rarely drink as an adult. I also grew up in a house of smokers, smoked in high school to seem cool, and never became addicted.
I count myself lucky that there were no camera phones or MySpace pages when I was a teen. Eesh!
I would have gotten into so much trouble if I had access to today's technology when I was a teen. OMG! Not to mention the cruelty that is committed with these by other kids. Remember that recent case of the girl who hung herself after being toyed with "fictional" guy created by a frenemy and her mom. That broke my heart. I just abhor cruelty on any level.
I don't think anyone should take my use of the phrase "too black" too literally. As soon as I hit the "submit" button, I realized how lame/inappropriate that phrase "too black" could come across. It was my corny attempt at connecting that no matter how one reads Joan's comments, she was being very "classist." Personally, I find it an honest living, working at a grocery store, earning money to go back to school, if that flake Paul's to be believed. Nothing low-rent about earning money to further one's schooling….
Also, read on MBs that Paul should've defended Sheila more to Joan. IMO, he showed Joan more than he could tell her! Too bad Joan's now on my character "shit list" with Pete and Betty!:P
Glass Darkly, LOL! (as the kids say…)
Ellelque — oh God, that story was heartbreaking. I agree. As though humans aren't plenty capable of being nasty to each other face-to-face. Now we can do it 24/7 on our Crackberries.
Ellelque … are we twins?
All that's missing from your story is the baby I cared for at that age. He was, and is, a great kid. Grew up to be a high school teacher, a great husband and father — he's in his 30's now.
And you should see my kid sister, born three years later. She may be the best mother I have ever met. The kids somehow got better as my parents got worse. How is that possible?
To be clear, I think there's a difference between caring and coddling. I see a lot of goodness in the young generation. Some kids have problems caring about people and things outside themselves, but normally you can trace that to the classic causes: the incomplete bond with the narcissistic parent, or whatever. I don't know, because I don't run into these kids very often. And I run into a LOT of kids.
In general, love is a good thing. A lot of love's an even better thing. And yeah, having some kind of involvement in the lives of your parents is terrific. If it's figuring out how many cherries to put in the cocktail, go for it. That's a useful role. I don't think I'd have a problem with it.
ThursdaysChild, I was personally split on the reactions to the plane crash — and while I share your sensitivity to the immediate reactive jokes, my experience with this kind of incident (can't go into all of that right now) tells me that yes, this is exactly how people react. It helps us put the necessary distance between ourselves and the event.
We used gallows humor to say, perversely, that no airline was safe. This was an interesting tactic at a time when we knew very well that many of us had to fly anyway, despite what had just happened. We made up derisive names for all the airlines: TWA was "Try Walking Across", Delta was "Don't Even Leave The Airport", and so on.
I remember that this helped. I can't even say why, but it did.
Hey, Ellelque: I think you win for funniest comment of the day …
"I was raised Baptist. They discourage sex, it might lead to dancing."
LOL!
There was a black woman at Midge's pot party. The difference is that nobody said, "Hey, Don, see how progressive and beatnik we are — we have a black woman here! See? See?!" I'm not saying that there might not have been some underlying tokenism, but Paul was just pathetic.
Kay, because I know your African American (or Black, I always want to be sure to use the right racial term) Anything you say on the subject would just be considered educational to me. I don't think anyone on here will think anything. I mean you have Sister Lipp making jewish jokes, I could make a lot of white trash jokes (or fat jokes to be honest). That is how we learn about where everyone is coming from in their opinions.
You know I honestly didn't put much into Paul until you guys pointed it out. Your right! He is a classic Poser. But he is ahead of his time. He sees what is coming up. Joan was honest, she caught him at it and it pissed him off.
Anne B, my sister from another dysfunctional mother. Glad to see you back!
I totally understand Gallow humor. I am a very bad person about it. I have to remind myself occasional that the hospital is not a happy place and behave accordingly when in the hallways. But the jokes that get told in the nursing lounge are so bad, you guys would be shocked. But, the reason we laugh and joke a lot is that if we don't then we would probably spend our time screaming. It is just a way to cover your despair.
Hey Elle….Sometimes I have no idea what ethnicity I'm called! I prefer black but some others like African American. I'm sure there'll be some other name next decade….LMAO!
Yeah, back at the animal shelter, well, it was a good thing that people walking through didn't hear us. It wasn't about not caring, but about coping.
Thats okay, after a certain age we are all the same – wrinkled and gray. At least those of us who will not take the botox way.
Hey Lipps Sisters, maybe you guys could add a chat room aspect to this site someday?
Sister Lipp, They Got a new site called What would Don Draper Do? and What would Joan Holloway Do?
http://whatwoulddondraperdo.tumblr.com/
http://whatwouldjoando.tumblr.com/
There was also pot at Midge's pot party … but Paul must live in a better neighborhood, because it became an issue at his party.
I have to say how surprised I am to see Joan's increasing … what can we call it? Unhappiness? It's as though she has to identify out loud every problem she sees, every person's weakness, every difference between each new person and herself. Lois's conflict with a coworker is "unbecoming". Paul has many friends, but is lacking a sofa. And that rant to him in the office — "go ahead. Which part is wrong?"
Wow. She was beyond catty. Behavior like that is angry. At what? What has this gorgeous woman with the doctor boyfriend got to be angry about?
What's going on with her? And why would she be surprised when someone finally strikes back — whether it's Paul, Lois, Peggy, or anyone else?
BTW … Kay, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a different name later this year. Presidential American?
Also a another shitty critic (from UK) lambasting the show: http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_a…
Hey is there an e-mail I can send these to so that the Lipp sisters can see them first and decide if they can be used for the site instead of me hogging the forums?
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_a…
Is there a e-mail address to the Lipp sisters about these articles? I hate hogging the forums with them. I would like to find these and send them to the Lipps to see if they are useful for the site?
I have never liked "African-American" as a term, because there are so many linguistic problems. What about black Canadians, for example? Are they African-Canadian? Because "African-American" sounds like a meme, not just like a modifier to any country (African-Jamaican? African-British?). Also, I had a co-worker, a white guy from South Africa, who became a citizen and came back to the office…an African-American.
That said, I will call anyone by the appellation they feel most comfortable with. It's not up to me, a white person, to determine what African-Americans call themselves an what I, therefore, call them.
Oh, and about Joan and Paul…he went into her locker and stole her purse for his petty act of revenge. What must their relationship have been like? Her anger may be particular, and not general. Something…something that goes back to the pilot, enrages her about this man.
Ell, chat software may be beyond my technical abilities. I don't have a pet webmeister, I do it myself, and I'm not that good.
Oops, and sorry the spam software got you.
Our addresses are on the About page.
*Wow. She was beyond catty. Behavior like that is angry. At what? What has this gorgeous woman with the doctor boyfriend got to be angry about?*
I don't know, but I had mentioned in another thread here that I thought that Joan has some self-esteem issues or something. I was just re-watching "Long Weekend" last night and those two guys she picked up with Carol were sooo… not cute. She had the long affair with Roger where she never allowed herself to get attached (at least outwardly), which was smart, but we saw her holding back tears while typing up those telegrams.
I suspect there has to be a lot of bottling up your feelings to be perceived as the cool perfect vixen, just as there is to be the cool perfect wife.
I think it's like she's on the opposite side of that Madonna/whore coin from Betty.
Deb, that's why I always use "black" or "Black" as my ethnic idenitfier because, technically, someone like Charlize Theron is more African than I am.
When folks get into racial and ethnic things, it's like folks either don't wish to directly and respectfully address concerns or just lose their shit, blaming "them" for causing harm to "us." That "them vs us" crap can come from any and all directions! It's kind of sad….
Elle, I think that link was posted before, because I remember it annoying me a lot. There is whole paragraph about how people didn't know smoking was bad — um, did this person watch the pilot — and that Betty Freidan had barely contemplated feminism, which is not the case.
And then the whole think about the reason the ratings were low that ignores the initial lack of promotion as the main cause, and the thing that might doom the show if people aren't willing to take an active role in playing catch-up now that they've heard of the show.
Jackie,
I think the less-than-stellar men Joan brought home were there for convenience sake — she had to immediately show Carol that she was straight, and they were handy.
There has been discussion about Joan having possibly having a bad experience with hospitals — was it a comment about room service where she mentioned that it reminded her of a hospital? And perhaps the comment about Peggy's "sammich" making her sad.
But she's dating a doctor now.
Theresa, about kids making cocktails for the adults. Sorry, but I don’t find that even remotely twisted. (And I notice a number of people have commented on that in this thread.) My parents taught us that for when they had cocktail parties. It was a way for kids to be part of it (and we were dying to be part of it) and feel useful. As an adult, all I enjoy is the occasional glass of wine, but my friends love that I know how to make a good Manhattan (my mom’s favourite), et cetera. I’m afraid we are all too priggish and puritanical about kids nowadays. One thing I notice when I watch this show is how much, by comparison, we now treat children as though they were utterly fragile creatures. We fuss about their “self-esteem” (whether they’ve earned any or not) and act as though any exposure to seeing their parents smoke or drink were going to traumatize them. And what’s ironic is, I never took up smoking or drinking (never even tried the former) and yet kids today start that stuff when they are 11 or 12! And this, in spite of how we “protect” them from it.
Don’t mean to rant, but I think we really have become hysterical about a lot of things.
I agree Rondi. I think the lack of discipline w/ children of today, for fear of screwing with their self esteem is outrageous. There has ceased to be any kind of boundaries, based on my observation when I watch friends w/ their kids. I can remember both my mom and dad were firm in their disciplines and my self esteem didn’t get wrecked. I think the scene w/ Don teaching his daughter how to make drinks was kind of cute. For me, it was the jokes about the crashed plane that really made me wince out loud however.
somehow, my 8 turned into a smiley face.
Thursdaychild, I agree with the lack of discipline. I hate being too much of a coddler. But I look at the differences in then and now too.
1970-80 – We had pot, alcohol, rock-n-roll, perverts were not that brave (that we know it). Fist fights, pierced ears, multicolored hair.
2000 = Crack, meth, hip hop gansta rap, tattoos, pierced everything, guns, Myspace, sex parties, pill parties, perverts coming into your home and taking your child, Internet issues.
…And all of these no-peanut eating, self-esteem loving, X-BOX playing, child-friends filling up the therapist offices…
(I went through 16+ years of big-city, high student volume education – and never once do I remember anyone getiing sick from so-called “peanut allergies” – which is now getting as much focus as breast cancer …)
Ms. Darkly,
I agree on the motivation, but jeez, she's normally beating them off with a stick. Had everyone cute left town for Labor Day?
I didn't see anyone here mention Bertram Cooper's physical deterioration in F1. Robert Morse is so convincing in his portrayal, I googled him just to see if he had had some sort of health problems!
Another reason MM is just so wonderful. I don't remember ever seeing the aging process with slow physical deterioration for a main TV character before. Time passes and the passage of time effects.
Deborah … Joan made a comment to Paul in the Election Night episode, after he'd made (what I found to be) a cutting remark about her outfit: "You can't sit down in that dress." So she did.
He asked her what went wrong between them. She said, "You have a big mouth." They repeated this scene last night, so it must have been important.
It's a general comment about something that must have been particular about their relationship. I can hazard a guess as to what, but only Joanie knows for sure.
Mrs, Darkly, I saw the same things at work in Joan's evening with her roommate. I think that she was not just hooking up with that guy because of Roger and her anger at him — but because of Carol and her confession before they left that night.
In a way, Joan was saying, "See? I am not available to you in any way. I am not interested in returning your feelings. I am going to go have sex with this ugly guy now, just to prove it."
P.S. Kay, re your Charlize Theron comment … my mom likes to tell me that I'm American-African (whatever that means to her), because I was born in an African nation and relocated here soon after. But I am as white as poor messed-up Betty, so that early time left me with nothing — no accent, nothing but some confusion about why I feel what I do sometimes.
Best line, in any movie, ever: Steve Martin in "The Jerk": "I'm gonna STAY this color?!?" (Bursts into tears)
@Peter G….I know one person who has a baaaad peanut allergy! That’s real!
LOL, Anne you are a true African American!
Joan is not in love with her doctor. That was kinda obvious by their make out session during Jackie K's show. She is with him for conveniance.
I would not be surprised if Joan does hold love feelings for Paul. But she knows he is a jerk. Remember when he gave Peggy the office tour, and seemed like a nice guy, then tried to kiss her.
I hope that they give her a real good guy to fall in love with some time. She did have feelings for Roger. I loved when she teared up when she was applying the make-up to Roger during his "no regrets" speech.
I would love to learn if she has a back story that made her that cynical.
Oh Deborah, you are perfectly wonderful webmeister. Just was curious about chat. The most I can handle is a myspace and that's because it is pretty user friendly.
I’m being somewhat facetious of course – allergies of all kinds are indeed real – and difficult for those that have them. And peanuts are just one of dozens of things people can be allergic to.
But getting back to point, we tend to coddle our children so much these days, making them live in a bubble, such that because of the few who genuinely do have allergies, we are setting up our children essentially in childhood isolation booths. Have you seen what the schools are doing about frigging peanut allergies? You’d think it was Anthrax. That’s all I’m saying.
(Should probably get back to MAD MEN – the LippSisters will/should object to this diversion…)
Ellelque — I agree. It is such a fine line for parents. I suspect you and I are about the same age, judging from your comments, and when you think about what kids are tempted with/threatened by now versus when we were kids/teens, surely we can’t think the way to protect them is just to put them in a hothouse as though they were rare flowers.
Ms. Darkly — wow, don’t get me started on politics! I write about politics for a living and that is one of the things I love most about Mad Men. In the second last (I think) episode of Season One, Bertram Cooper makes a comment about Dick Nixon and a potential recount. Now, make no mistake, I am not a Nixon apologist. But it shouldn’t be forgotten that he spared the U.S. a recount in 1960, when he would have been quite justified in insisting upon having one.
And we forget that JFK was quite a hawk — one of his redeeming qualities, in my opinion. Historical ignorants/revisionists have turned him into some kind of touchy-feely (make your own joke here!) pacifist, when he was elected on a platform of being tough on communism. It was Nixon who was considered not hawkish enough, and too much of a negotiator, where communists were concerned.
I’ll be interested to see how the Cuban Missile Crisis fits into this season.
Peter G. I think the thing about peanut allergies is not that they are not real. It’s that the majority is expected to change their behaviour for the minority. If one kid in a class of 25 has an allergy, the rest of them are expected to not bring certain foods to school to accommodate him. This I find ridiculous. If your child has a serious allergy, they have to learn from a young age that they may have to remove themselves from certain situations (cafeteria meals, for e.g.), or they have to learn to always bring an Epi-Pen. I think that is what has changed from 50 years ago. The minority tends to “rule” more than it should.
"I have never liked “African-American†as a term, because there are so many linguistic problems. What about black Canadians, for example? Are they African-Canadian?"
Up here in Canada, in my experience anyway, people mostly use "black". You can use "African-Canadian", but it's not so commonly heard, mainly because the majority of black Canadians hail from the Caribbean originally, or their parents/ancestors did. (For example, our Governer-General, Michaëlle Jean, was born in Haiti.)
Elleque–
The 70s and 80s also had cocaine, crack, and heroin…times certainly haven’t gotten better, but I’m not convinced they’ve gotten worse when it comes to drug use.
Kay, I honestly don’t think the remark about shopping in the store was about Sheila being “too black.” It is almost word-for-word what Joan said to Peggy in the pilot: If you do well, you’ll rise up in the office ranks, if you do REALLY well, you’ll be living in the country and not working at all.
It is doubtful that Joan has any experience talking to blacks, she is using her standard “gotta catch a man” line for lack of knowing what else to say. AND being catty.
But seriously, do you think Joan has a concept of being “too black” other than “not white”? We can sit here in 2008 and look at all the racism inherent in the conversations about Obama, is he “really black” or “too white” or “elitist” (which is SO coded about race) and he’s a “rock star” and on and on and on, but Joan, whose office supported Nixon’s “southern strategy,” doesn’t need to be so coded. Joan doesn’t need to be racist by implying that Sheila is “too black,” she can just point out that Sheila is black, no “too” required.
I agree that there is nothing necessarily wrong about letting kids help prepare adult food & drink. I taught my son to make me coffee at a young age. And we are an overprotective culture, that’s a fact.
But it’s not all so much worse now as then, that’s one of the things this show demonstrates. Kids are snatched from their homes very, very rarely both now and then, with no statistical increase. People died of heroin overdose in the 1920s. Alcoholism was, if anything, worse, and life expectancy was shorter.
To a certain extent, we do well with “over” protectiveness. Peanut allergies may be more common because of the use of peanut products in manufacturing, which cause sensitivity. Since the allergy is potentially fatal, it makes sense to ban them from preschools with kids too young to be cautious. An awfully small sacrifice for a greater good. Refer back to improved life expectancy. On the other hand, believing that over-reporting problems like kidnapping is the same as their actual increase is a big mistake. I support the woman (Lenore Skenazy, a Mad Men fan I’ve quoted here) who allowed her son to ride the subway alone, to much media frenzy.
The music at the end F1 really brought back memories for me. I was a young kid living in Tokyo at the time. @Kay mentioned ethnic idenitfiers, try being a French kid who moved from Paris to Athens who then lives in Tokyo who then moved to South America who then moved to Newport Beach and eventually San Francisco…there is no identifier (oh and lets not forget the two years in India when a toddler)!
The song at the end of F1 is Sukiyaki by Sakamoto Kyo.
On August 12, 1985, Kyu Sakamoto died in the crash of Japan Airlines Flight 123. Before the doomed aircraft hit the ground, he managed to write a farewell note to his wife, Yukiko Kashiwagi.
Here's the translation of the lyrics which are to me a continuation of the theme set by Meditations in an Emergency. I think there is a bit of irony considering Kyu Sakamoto ACTUALLY WROTE DURING AN EMERGENCY ABOUT HIS LOVE FOR HIS WIFE!
It's very bittersweet knowing that twenty plus years later he would die from falling from the clouds and sky.
I look up when I walk
So the tears won't fall
Remembering those happy spring days
But tonight I'm all alone
I look up when I walk
Counting the stars with tearful eyes
Remembering those happy summer days
But tonight I'm all alone
Happiness lies beyond the clouds
Happiness lies above the sky
I look up when I walk
So the tears won't fall
Though my heart is filled with sorrow
For tonight I'm all alone
(whistling)
Remembering those happy autumn days
But tonight I'm all alone
Sadness hides in the shadow of the stars
Sadness lurks in the shadow of the moon
I look up when I walk
So the tears won't fall
Though my heart is filled with sorrow
For tonight I'm all alone
(whistling)
That is very poignant and pretty. Thanks for the lyrics
Jess, yes those drugs existed. But they were not part of my experience or those I went to high school with. The movie Dazed and Confused was a excellent depiction of the teens of my child hood. It was bad, but today I see these kids having far more temptations. Pot and beer were the ultimate rebellion.
I was no angel and even now am the more evolved of my family (current and only ever is husband 12 years younger than me, had my son at 32 while single, and can definately say that my 20′s are one big party blur)
But when I was 12 or 13, kissing and maybe a boob grab was considered risque. Nowdays, they consider themselves virgins only if they have actual penetration by a penis. Everything else is fair game.
Miley Cyrus – Media makes a big deal about 1 backless photo by Annie L in Vanity Fair, when the little girl has been placing very overt sexual photos of herself all over her MySpace for months. She and the other celebutards have little girls dressing like mini-prostitutes.
That is a sign of old age I guess. Lambasting the young. I’m there.
Hi John,
Lovely post. Thank you!
My husband also connected powerfully to that song. He's half-Japanese(yeah … we're quite a mix), born in Tokyo and raised, for the most part, here. He says that song is one of the first he remembers.
My husband also said it was first recorded in '63, just a bit of a misstep for the show. But he was taken enough with the scene to look it up right after the credits rolled, which is something.
I had no idea about the story behind the song — and can't wait to share it with my husband. I'm married to such a good guy.
Funny … all this talk about ethnic identification. Some things still make us equals, and the real expression of emotion is one.
P.S. To your earlier comment about my old hero, the Coop: I too was concerned when I saw him last night. The first thing I thought was that he must have been ill. His diction was off. This isn't the man we saw last season — and if he's acting, the job he's doing is almost too good …
***But it’s not all so much worse now as then, that’s one of the things this show demonstrates. Kids are snatched from their homes very, very rarely both now and then, with no statistical increase. People died of heroin overdose in the 1920s. Alcoholism was, if anything, worse, and life expectancy was shorter.
To a certain extent, we do well with “over†protectiveness. Peanut allergies may be more common because of the use of peanut products in manufacturing, which cause sensitivity. Since the allergy is potentially fatal, it makes sense to ban them from preschools with kids too young to be cautious. An awfully small sacrifice for a greater good. Refer back to improved life expectancy. On the other hand, believing that over-reporting problems like kidnapping is the same as their actual increase is a big mistake. I support the woman (Lenore Skenazy, a Mad Men fan I’ve quoted here) who allowed her son to ride the subway alone, to much media frenzy.***
People are always throttling the media for something, but I think they are absolutely responsible for this culture of fear. Children, and I acknowledge I don’t have any, shouldn’t be swaddled and kept dependent, but rather allowed to take measured chances in order to be able to know how to react to danger.
We make sure our kids don’t talk to strangers and forget that some day it might be talking to a stranger that saves his or her life, that strangers can also be good people, and so our child gets lost and is too afraid to reach out for help. And, of course, we overlook that sometimes the bad guy is someone we know.
Why? Because “we’re safer than ever, but the world remains complex,” makes a sucktastic start to a newscast. Instead we get, “Danger! Everywhere! In your homes, your schools, your community! Want 5 simple steps to fix it all? Tune in at 11!”
We’ve talked a lot about how horrible it is that in Mad Men we see someone hit a child that’s not their own. Wrong on multiple levels in modern society, and so it should be, imo. The other side of it is that people also felt more responsible for the children of the neighborhood. A lot of us remember doing something stupid the next block over and coming home to find out that three neighbors called. Busted!
The problem with telling people, with convincing them, that you can pervert-proof them, fire-proof them, life-proof them, is that the child doesn’t learn basic protection skills, because they’ve been treated like eggs.
Not to mention it makes us less compassionate. How many times have we read about a tragedy or watched a story on the news concerning a child, and felt the unspoken blame land on the parents? As if sometimes bad things don’t happen, as if most parents don’t look away for a second, as if the fact that the viewers kids are safe in bed is some sort of proof of good parenting or a vindication.
Why couldn’t the parents protect their child? Don’t they watch the news? There are 5 Easy Steps! Obviously the mother was bad for not knowing instantly that the soccer coach was a sicko — a good mother would just know, and she wouldn’t ever let her child be unsupervised. And what about that other story? Where the man rode over his son with the riding mower? I know he thought the boy was still at the store with his mother, but he should have been watching… Oh, and remember the story last week? When will people learn — fresh batteries in the smoke detectors. Wel, sure, mine probably need to be changed, and I’ll get to it eventually, but there hasn’t been a fire because I’m a good parent. And I feel sorry for these people, but they have nobody else to blame. And I know nothing like that could happen to me, because I’m careful and informed
…and I know the steps.
@Anne B,
I first heard the song in Tokyo in 1961, maybe it wasn't in the United States until later.
Isn't this whole show about the meta topic of ethnic identification, what we are raised to believe and whether or not we can comprehend and feel the basis of emotion which leads to behavior?
As interesting side note, the introductory music to MM includes Tibetan sound bowls. It is believed that they reduce stress, alter consciousness and create a deep sense of peace, well being and better health. In Tibetan Buddhism the instruments were used for consciousness transformation and healing.
I think Joan is angry because she's afraid. Things are changing around her and she doesn't understand. Throughout Season 1 she was utterly cool and in control because she knew the game and exactly how to play it, even to the point where she could condescend to tell Peggy what to do. But look where things are now. Peggy has risen without playing the game Joan knows. Joan still doesn't like Peggy (the Xerox machine in her office proves that), but she's afraid to fight her in the open now, not just because Peggy has a powerful support in Don (while Joan doesn't have Roger with her anymore), but because Peggy is playing a different game with rules Joan doesn't understand (Don's support of Peggy isn't based on sex, as was hers with Roger). And since Joan's game is based on her youth and sex appeal, it's no wonder that Paul revealing (and reminding her of) her true age hit her in a particularly vulnerable spot. If she can't play that game anymore, and doesn't know how to play Peggy's, it's no wonder she's angry and afraid.
Hey S. Tarzan! Just saw that Denise Crosby played Gertie? I can't remember which person Gertie was! I looked for pics on line of her, I'll have to take a quick look at the show I recorded last week to see if I get a glimpse of her. Thanks for pointing out the Star Trek connections though (the character Shell played by Vaughn Armstrong – didn't notice this either!) I'm a trek fan and love seeing the actors in other rolls, keep the connections coming!
Gertie is the riding instructor at the beginning.
Mel, I can see that. It is probably pretty frustrating to think you know it all and that you know how to play the game. Then along comes an innocent girl, who uses nothing but her mind, and actually gets fat during the time, but still rises up the office ladder. She pretty much didn't listen to Joan on anything except for the "Boss's Mistress" situation.
I mean Peggy never used her sex or looks at all in the office. I did kinda get a kick out of Peggy using her power over the guy in the hall last night. She played him so well.
Joan has got to feel a little panicy about losing her looks. I bet she is one of those women who today invest a lot of money in plastic surgery and such.
I dunno — now Betty would be a botox/surgery junkie. Joan, I think, were she finacially set, could let the looks slide.
This board's starting to remind me of the conversation Don and Roger have in New Amsterdam – every generation is critical of the generations that follow!
Not that there's anything wrong with that. Hell, I'm only 23 and I find myself worrying about younger kids getting fat and playing too many video games.
On another note, thought the episode was great. So glad when the writers don't go for the easy cathartic moment – which in this case would have been something like Pete going to Peggy to be consoled and crying his eyes out or something.
Thought his twist at the end was interesting, and this whole Don/Duck power struggle could get good.
I mean, Don's right – it's really shitty and unprofessional for them to just dump Mohawk like that.
Line exchange of the night for me:
Peggy: I'm capable of making my own decisions.
Peggy's sister: The state of New York and the doctors didn't seem to think so.
Literally made me say "OH SHIT!" out loud.
I have to wonder about the peanut allergies. I am a flight attendant and we no longer serve peanuts, but every now and then you have people who tell you that they have severe allergies to peanuts or other foods and they want us to make sure that they do not come into contact with them. To which we always nod and smile as we walk away rolling our eyes. If you have such a serious allergy there is no way to control it on an airplane, much less a school for all the bans that are in place. People have to realise that they cannot place their children in a protective bubble, perhaps you can convince institutions and companies to ban certain products, but that has no effect on whether or not other people will obey those rules and if your children will come into contact with those products in the big wide world!
John beat me to it re: Sukiyaki and Kyu Sakamoto.
It should be pointed out though, that "Sukiyaki" was released in Japan in 1961 as "Ue O Muite Aruko" (I Look Up When I Walk) and was a #1 hit there before it was released in 1963 in the States. So it's not an anachronism or goof (as someone else wrote) that the song would be playing in an Asian restaurant in 1962. It's perfectly reasonable that they would be playing popular music from Japan there.
Is there a link somebody will post to download Sukiyaki? I'd really like to have an mp3 of it…
A really interesting PODCAST from Barbara Lippert of ADWEEK:
http://nielsenpodcasts.com/thecritic/
Peter, Thanks for sharing. I worked with Barbara Lippert at Adweek (I was on the copy desk, she was a star columnist) and she sounds exactly the same. What's funny about this is how he describes the business guy (Duck, I presume) as a buffoon! Also funny to hear them discussing Peggy's story line like two old friends obsessed with the same show.
In rewatching this episode, I noticed that Peggy's "sister" looked old enough to be her mother. Is it possible that history is repeating itself here? There seems to be a big age difference between the 22-year-old Peggy and the sister. Could it be that the sister is Peggy's mother and she was raised as her sister?
My two cents … what the hell
I think Joan and Peggy are kindred spirits on a certain level — "They can't stand it. They'll drag you into the garbage out there. They just want you to be as miserable as they are. I say, let them have it." Peggy escaped Bay Ridge (mostly). I wonder what Joan's background is? And of course there's Don's transformation from Dick Whitman … They've disappeared into Manhattan. They've found refuge in their work.
Think it's interesting that Pete's last name is "Campbell." It's a Scottish name and in Liza Campbell's memoir, "A Charmed Life" she shares some history of the Campbell clan (chapter 6), betrayal being the key theme of an episode in the 17th century. She writes, "If there has been retribution for the betrayal at Glencoe, it is that the name Campbell carries the stigma to this day." And apparently there's a common phrase, "Never trust a Campbell."
On a lighter note … Loved Betty's line, "I don't need a book to know what little boys do!" (At some point, I think Betty's going to have a problem w/her daughter's weight.)
What's wrong with Paul's hair? I thought it was a toupee upon first viewing, but it looks he Grecian formula-ed it darker or something?
On rewatch, Joan doesn't seem quite as racist, just clueless. Is Peggy in a new apartment? Her room looks different and I think she had a twin bed last season.
#312 – the name Campbell comes from the Scots Gaelic "cam beul" (crooked mouth).
No offense to any Campbells who may be reading this, but it's the perfect name for Pete. Not only is his mouth metaphorically crooked (due to his many spoken deceits), much of the time it's literally crooked, or twisted, into a pout of discontent.
I know I'm jumping *really* late on this, but something occurred to me that I don't think has been mentioned here. (I did a search in this thread and the not-so-live one, but didn't have the patience to actually read all 400 comments between the two, so please forgive me if I'm being redundant.)
During the Mohawk pitch session, Don tells Peggy, "You are the product." From the characters' point of view, he's conveying the level of dedication he expects her to put into every account. From a meta point of view, though, he's revealing something that rings true for both of them. They are both trying to sell images of themselves to the world at large.
Don Draper is clearly a product of Dick Whitman's making. He's been selling his facade — powerful ad exec, loving husband and father, endearing cad — for years now. Don is what Dick decided to be, and he has even sold himself on this new persona to the point that he vehemently rejects anyone who tries to relate to the old one. Even his own brother.
Peggy, on the other hand, isn't trying to sell people on something new. She's trying to convince them that nothing has changed, that she's still the spunky, ambitious, young copywriter she had become by the end of last season. None of her co-workers (with the possible exception of Don) knows about her pregnancy. The only ones who do are her immediate family, who are willing (although apparently grudgingly) to care for her son. Among her colleagues she is just the bright young thing who handles all the feminine advertising they don't really want to do anyway and sometimes still gets spoken to like a secretary.
Don and Peggy share a desire to be seen as they wish, not as they truly are. They are advertisers, masters of coercion and manipulation. And they are the products.
[...] Robin left this comment in the Flight 1 open thread, two weeks past where most of you would see it, so [...]
I have to say this about the Paul/Sheila/Joan situation.
Is Paul a poseur? Of course he is! I'm sure that Joan must have known this already before she met Sheila. Remember that play he had written and which she and Sal had peformed before the other Sterling Cooper minions in "Nixon vs. Kennedy"? His reaction to the whole easily told anyone that Paul can be an intellectual poser.
So, why did Joan finally decide to call upon his bullshit when she met Sheila? Why then? Someone had suggested that she was trying to warn Sheila in her own way. I rather doubt it. There was too much anger in Joan's demeanor for her to care about Sheila. And the fact that she insisted on believing that Sheila was a check-out girl, instead of a store manager? What was that about?
I'm not claiming that Joan is an out-and-out racist who is a card carrying member of the KKK. But I do believe that despite Paul's pretentions, she may have been upset that a man she once dated (before the series had begun) and might still be slightly attracted to, is dating a black woman.
After all, she and Paul have not dated in over two years. Both had moved on with other people. She had once suspected that Paul and Peggy might be interested in each other. Joan may have been catty to Peggy about a lot of things, but I don't recall her being catty in regard to Peggy's alleged romance with Paul. She did try to give Peggy some advice about the latter's appearance, not realizing that Peggy was pregnant.
Now . . . if Joan had already seen a glimpse of Paul's pretensions in Season 1 and not see the possibility of a relationship between Paul and Peggy as a threat, what was it about the Paul/Sheila relationship that led her into bitch mode? What does that say about her?